2009.10.29 13:00 - Theme Session: Advaita Vedanta part 2

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The few comments are by Storm Nordwind, who has tried to highlight the theme content.

Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
Storm Nordwind: Greetings Bolo and Solo! :)
Solobill Laville: Hi, Storm, hi, Bolo :)
--BELL--
Solobill Laville: Digging out, Storm?
Storm Nordwind nods
Solobill Laville: :)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Bolo, Solo, Storm!
Solobill Laville: Hi, Pema
Bolonath Crystal: namaste pema

The session begins, and Bolonath talks for the first half, concentrating on the five yamas.

Storm Nordwind: Bolo and Pema, you are welcome to begin the theme session whenever you wish :)
Bolonath Crystal: well... do you like to start, pema?
Pema Pera: sure!
Pema Pera: I really enjoyed last Monday's session
Pema Pera: Is there anything you'd like to add or comment on, Bolo?
Solobill Laville: Hi, Eliza :)
Bolonath Crystal: last time we talked about the 'theoretical' basis. today i'd like to come to something more 'practical'
Bolonath Crystal: namaste eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi bill, nice to see you :) And hello everyone. Namaste (now quiet)
Pema Pera: great, Bolo, please go right ahead!
Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
Pema Pera: hi Pila!
Bolonath Crystal: as we have seen, the main problem in becoming enlightened is karma. so maybe it would be a good idea to talk about dealing with karma
Bolonath Crystal: namaste pila
Pila Mulligan: hi (apologies for being late)
Bolonath Crystal: there are a number of techniques, and as all of them lead to the connection with god (or 'true self'), they are all called yoga
Bolonath Crystal: i am going to tell you about my favourite 'discipline', called raja yoga
Bolonath Crystal: in yoga there are many ways to improve the spiritual development. but all is in vain, as long as two points are not observed: yama and niyama
Bolonath Crystal: without yama and niyama spiritual progress is very hard to achieve
Bolonath Crystal: yama is about dealing with other persons, niyama is about dealing with oneself
Pema Pera: Hi Gen!
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
Bolonath Crystal: both, yama and niyama, include 5 topics
Bolonath Crystal: namaste gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: nice group :)
Solobill Laville: (Just got nicer :))
Pema Pera: Hi Yaku!
Bolonath Crystal: so i begin to introduce to you the five topics of yama
Bolonath Crystal: namaste yak :)
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Yaku
Bolonath Crystal: the first (and maybe the most important) point is 'ahimsa' - non-violence
--BELL--
Bolonath Crystal: because there is no real separation between self and others, violence against others is always violence against self
Bolonath Crystal: namaste doug
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi doug
doug Sosa: :)
doug Sosa: shhhh :)
Bolonath Crystal: violent karmic seeds lead to violent karmic fruits (experiences). we get what we give
Pema Pera: hi Doug!
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Doug!
Bolonath Crystal: so non-violence is a very important part in spiritual practise in general, not only in advaita vedanta
Bolonath Crystal: hi noke :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Noke
Bolonath Crystal: the second important thing is truthfullness
Pema Pera: Welcome, Noke!
Bolonath Crystal: truthfullness in our deeds, words and thoughts
Noke Yuitza: Aloha!
Bolonath Crystal: that means, acting authenticly, refraining from lying to others as well as to ourselves
Bolonath Crystal: we can't attain true insights without truthfullness
Bolonath Crystal: 3. temperance
Pema Pera: hi Qt!
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Qt
Qt Core: hi all
Bolonath Crystal: namaste qt :)
Bolonath Crystal: if we look at energy, enlightenment is attained by leading energy from the lower chakras to the highest one
Bolonath Crystal: and to gain control of energy flow, energy mustn't be wasted
Bolonath Crystal: energy should flow steadily towards the crown chakra
Bolonath Crystal: this can only be achieved, if we live a live in temperance, without extremes
Bolonath Crystal: the next point is to keep our independence, especially refusing to accept bribes, to remain self-determinated
Bolonath Crystal: bribery leads to karmic entanglement, not to freedom. so a yogi always strives to keep his independence
Bolonath Crystal: hi kiki :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello kiki
Kiki Lysette: greetings Bolonath
Pema Pera: hi Kiki
genesis Zhangsun: hi kikki
Qt Core: hi kiki
Kiki Lysette: Yakuzza... Perma.. genesis.. Qt.
Kiki Lysette: I apologize for intererupting your class. shhhhh
Bolonath Crystal: the last point is: getting rid of selfish desires, especially refraining from stealing
Bolonath Crystal: this applies not only to material things
Bolonath Crystal: desire in general is the motor of the wheel of birth, death and rebirth
Bolonath Crystal: so these are the 5 yamas: non-violence, truthfullness, temperance, independence and desirelessness
--BELL--

After the bell we begin asking questions of our kind speaker.

Pema Pera: thank you very much, Bolo! Does anyone have questions, comments, responses of any kind?
Qt Core: what a perfect timing ending your explanations just a couple sec before the bell ;-)
Bolonath Crystal: :)
Bolonath Crystal: thats karma ;)
Storm Nordwind: I guess my first question would be to ask "Why has raja yoga become your favourite discipline?"
Bolonath Crystal: hm... maybe because it includes many different points, while other yogas have a certain stress on a specific point
Solobill Laville: It seems that 3 of the 5 that you mentioned Bolo are also Buddhist precepts, and one is Buddhist paramita
Solobill Laville: What are the similarities/differences to advaita iyo?
Storm Nordwind: Do you think therefore it's more effective that other disciplines, Bolo, or that it appeals more to you personally?
Bolonath Crystal: yes, there are many more items which are very 'compatible' with buddhism, also in niyama
Bolonath Crystal: storm: i think this depends very much on the individual
Bolonath Crystal: for bhakti yoga for example one has to be very devotional, more as i am at least
doug Sosa: My question is a hard one, not mant critically, but can be taken that way. It goes like this: people get colonized by language, and then they repeat the words without experience. Formulaic phrases seem especially to do this. So I am increasingly reluctant to use speech which isnot fresh, not as a lemon, but as a new flower that demands real observation. How do you handle the observation that many just repeat the words without feeling or comprehension beyond a minilmal level?
Storm Nordwind nods to Bolo
Bolonath Crystal: a very good question, doug
doug Sosa: blush
Bolonath Crystal: it is up to a teacher to notice this and then set up a situation, where the disciple gets lost by just repeating phrases ;)
Bolonath Crystal: words are just the beginning. everyone must have his or her own experiences

genesis asks how to apply the practice. Bolonath highlights one important method and illustrates this with an example. The example provides fuel for discussion.

genesis Zhangsun: so following up on that how do you work with these principles?
genesis Zhangsun: in daily life?
Bolonath Crystal: a very important tool to handle that is awareness of my own reactions
Bolonath Crystal: self-study
genesis Zhangsun: so similar perhaps to Stim's approach with buddhist precepts? As an investigative tool into your own life
genesis Zhangsun: noticing the gaps between the principle and practice?
Bolonath Crystal: let me give an example: if i'm getting angry with somebody, i ask myself: 'why do i feel angry about this?' and not: 'why does this person act like that/ do this to me?'
Bolonath Crystal: so i try to learn from every situation
Bolonath Crystal: by taking care of yama and niyama one can be a good hindu or buddhist or christian or whatever
Eliza Madrigal: Is there a time to ask the second question too? Perhaps having asked the first? Meaning 90% "Why do I feel angry?" and 10% "Why do they act like that?" :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bolonath Crystal: the second question is of only small use for one's own spiritual path, but may be important to help others
Bolonath Crystal: if it is asked with loving compassion
Eliza Madrigal: you mean, especially if they are me, too? :)
--BELL--
Noke Yuitza: Sorry, I gotta go, ty so much for the seminar, ciao!
Pila Mulligan: bye Noke
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye noke
Noke Yuitza: :) ciao!
Bolonath Crystal: bye noke, thanks for coming :)
Pema Pera is quietly sneaking away, having to catch his train back to NYC -- don't let me interrupt
Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
Storm Nordwind: That's an interesting statement Bolo. You seem to imply that one's own spiritual development is independent of others. Or do I misunderstand?
Bolonath Crystal: 'others' is only a projection of the true self. in advaita vedanta thinking there are no 'others', because the true self of you and me is identical
Bolonath Crystal: but the point is:
Bolonath Crystal: if i ask, why somebody else does something, i give away the responsibility for the situation
Bolonath Crystal: but it is my own karma that lets me create the universe as i do
Storm Nordwind nods
Pila Mulligan: I wonder if Eliza was referring to understanindg someone else's motive or intent in order to help them and the situation?
Eliza Madrigal: well yes I see every situation as multifasceted
Eliza Madrigal: and seeing from their angle is necessarily abdicating responsibility... guess there are intricasies?
Bolonath Crystal: as long as i look upon others as independend entities, i would agree with that
Solobill Laville: It is probably fair to say that if you can't get through the anger issue you won't be much help in the second way...
Bolonath Crystal: sure
Eliza Madrigal: I would certainly agree that the main thing would be my action/reaction in a more direct sense
Storm Nordwind: Is the 'no separation', the 'no others', a matter of belief or a realization from experience?
Qt Core: but checking other's motivation/reasoning isn't at some degree a way to check mine's
Bolonath Crystal: the question 'why do i feel as i do?' doesn't neccessarily help to solve a situation, but it helps to learn about myself
Qt Core: add a ? to my previous phrase ;-)

There are several outstanding questions that invite answers and clearly more potential discussion. It seems we will have at least one further session!

Bolonath Crystal: now the hour is nearly over and i didn't talk about niyama yet... amazing how time is running
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bolo, thanks so much for this talk... really enjoy it. I hope you'll continue at some point!
Pila Mulligan: there may be a next time
Storm Nordwind: perhaps we will need to schedule another session
Bolonath Crystal: i'd be pleased :)
genesis Zhangsun: will save my question for next time :)
Storm Nordwind will do likewise!
Qt Core: you know, bolonath, i've read the log af the other session and after more than 24 hours i'm still blinded by the truth about the notion of time coming from desire
Pila Mulligan: thanks very much Bolonath
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Bolo, everyone :)
genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone!
Solobill Laville: Thanks, Storm and Bolo
Bolonath Crystal: thank you all :)
genesis Zhangsun: Stim's workshop starts in two minutes
Pila Mulligan: bye for now
Eliza Madrigal: (and look forward to hearing more about time/desire too) Bye!
Qt Core: thank you bolo
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Bolonath Crystal: ok, so i'm off, too. thanks a lot - and 'om shanti' :)
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
Qt Core: bye bolo
Storm Nordwind: Bye all
Qt Core: and bye storm