2010.01.05 13:00 – Circles within Circles

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: gday gaya
Liza Deischer: hi Gaya
Agatha Macbeth: I never saw you as a human being before!
Mickorod Renard: Hiya gaa
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey gaya
Mickorod Renard: Gaya*
Mickorod Renard: are we due to comence with wok again Gaya? soon?
Agatha Macbeth: With wok? Cooking?
Mickorod Renard: Hi Calvino
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Cal
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
Liza Deischer: hi Cal
Vertigo Ethaniel: welcome, calvin
Mickorod Renard: cooking something,,yea
Agatha Macbeth: Or something cooking?
Mickorod Renard: cooking up ,ways of knowing,
Gaya Ethaniel: I sent a notice Mick through the SL group?
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Gaya Ethaniel kicks SL ... yes it resumes this Thursday.
Mickorod Renard: I dont seem to pick mine up as often as I should,,for some rreason,,most likely my incompetence
Mickorod Renard: Thanks gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: [btw having a very bad chat lag ... 1 pm SLT monster is back for me it seems]
Mickorod Renard: I dont know whether my rl is so busy that i dont find as much time as I need for sl,,,or whether I just need to be more industrious
Agatha Macbeth: Probably somewhere in between Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Liza Deischer: What is your best guess :-)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Cor
Agatha Macbeth: Did I miss someone?
Mickorod Renard: yes, I nearly did too
Agatha Macbeth: Woops!
Mickorod Renard: I am going to pretend I did
Agatha Macbeth: OK then :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: RL is stressful most ofthe time, mick
Vertigo Ethaniel: liza, i will turn off my translator, sorry
Liza Deischer: thanks
Gaya Ethaniel: [don't mind me, relogging ...]
Mickorod Renard: Rl is stressful for me at the moment
Mickorod Renard: I am very concious of anxieties
Mickorod Renard: and I am trying to suppress them
Vertigo Ethaniel: yes, i too am suffering from anxiety at the present
Liza Deischer: anxieties?
Vertigo Ethaniel: its a nasty thing to live with
Mickorod Renard: yes it is,,and I often feel that i am willing my life away wishing for a less stressful date in the future
Vertigo Ethaniel nods
Mickorod Renard: yet i know that i am a born worrier
Vertigo Ethaniel: it is hard to sit content in the present when it is unpleasant
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Qt
Agatha Macbeth: Why stressful Mick?
Liza Deischer: hi QT
Qt Core: Hi all
Agatha Macbeth: Buona sera QT
Liza Deischer: anxiety is very mean
Qt Core: 'sera Agatha
Vertigo Ethaniel: welcome QT
Mickorod Renard: well,,I have some personal business to sort out,,its been pending a while now
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Mickorod Renard: selling a house in another country
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, tricky
Mickorod Renard: and I cannot move on properly without the money from it
Agatha Macbeth: Is that in France?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
Mickorod Renard: its horrible
Agatha Macbeth: What the house?
Vertigo Ethaniel: where is the house, in the country? or urban?
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Liza Deischer: its not a good time to sell a house at the moment
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: its sort of semi rural
Agatha Macbeth: At least it's another EU country, which should facilitate matters somewhat
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Bertie :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: that sounds like a nice place mick
Zen Arado: Hi all
Vertigo Ethaniel: i wouldnt mind similar
Bertram Jacobus: hello everybody ! ... :-)
Liza Deischer: Hi Bert
Mickorod Renard: should do,,,,,well, it could have been nice,,but i dont know,,I feel I wasted my tlife there
Qt Core: i bert
Agatha Macbeth: Aaaaw :(
Mickorod Renard: I just want to move on
Agatha Macbeth: Were you happy while you were there Mick?
Mickorod Renard: not really
Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Zen
Agatha Macbeth: Hello there Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Liza Deischer: yes, hi Zen, missed you
Mickorod Renard: as usual, I think I went to escape bagage,,and then took the bagage with me
Agatha Macbeth: Ooops ;-)
Liza Deischer: there is no way to hide
Zen Arado: baggage?
Liza Deischer: Im afraid
Mickorod Renard: I know..now I face it ,,and its much better
Mickorod Renard: deal with things,,dont run
Agatha Macbeth: 'Tis the only way Mick
Liza Deischer: but anxiety still kicks in?
Vertigo Ethaniel: anxiety kicks you in the butt when you least expect it
Mickorod Renard: the anxiety is just me being impatient about wantin life back to normal
Agatha Macbeth: nods
Liza Deischer: not being where you are, not willing to
Mickorod Renard: Hi zon
Zon Quar: heya
Agatha Macbeth: Ah guten Abend :)
Zen Arado: Hi Zon, Gaya
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Wol,,nice dinner?
Liza Deischer: hi Zon
Zen Arado: Hi Wol
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zon
Wol Euler: very nice, thanks
Wol Euler: hello everyone
Mickorod Renard: are you really here Wol?
Wol Euler: yep
Mickorod Renard: coooooool
Zen Arado: are any of us :)
Wol Euler: :)
Mickorod Renard: Zen,,thats a deep question
Agatha Macbeth: Filled up and ready to rock :)
Liza Deischer: you need to drop your tag :-)
Zon Quar: who r we
Mickorod Renard: I am me,,who are you?
Zon Quar: i though i was me
Zen Arado: no one here really
Agatha Macbeth: Who is Number One?
Wol Euler: heheh
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: i am not a number
Vertigo Ethaniel: i am a person
Zon Quar: i must be the only me
Zon Quar: u r all us
Agatha Macbeth: You are a free...er...cat?
Mickorod Renard: oh yes,,the prisoner starts again soon,,in uk at least
Agatha Macbeth: It does?
Zen Arado: I am ...not I am
Wol Euler: I thought *I* was me. If you are "me", who am I?
Mickorod Renard: a new mini series
Agatha Macbeth: It's not that simple Wol
Mickorod Renard: maybe we are all nothing?
Agatha Macbeth: Not the original then?
Vertigo Ethaniel: no, you are you, i am me
Zen Arado: we are all each other
Liza Deischer: or all I
Wol Euler: aah, I see, ty
Zon Quar: hey...i can only be me
Vertigo Ethaniel: zen i do like that :)
Agatha Macbeth: Well that cleared *that* up!
Agatha Macbeth: Not
Zen Arado: we inter are
Mickorod Renard: (I guess we have all be reading time space and knowledge)
Zen Arado: as TNH says
Zon Quar: tnh ?
Wol Euler: I like that.
Agatha Macbeth: Is that Irish Zen?
Zen Arado: Thich Nhat Hanh
Zon Quar: ah
Agatha Macbeth: Is he not president of Viet Nam?
Zen Arado: a Vietnamese Zen monk
Liza Deischer: living in France
Agatha Macbeth: Right country!
Zen Arado: lives in France though
Wol Euler: oh, the Plum Village guy?
Zen Arado: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Ok ok
Zon Quar: no wonder he is buddhist
Zon Quar: lol
Agatha Macbeth: (Stickler for detail)
Zen Arado: believes in socially engaged Buddhism
Agatha Macbeth: Ooooh
Agatha Macbeth: What's that?
Zen Arado: led protests against Vietnam war
Zen Arado: otherwise I don't know
Agatha Macbeth: Good for him
Liza Deischer: that's why he is living in France
Mickorod Renard: and yet he still lives in france?
--BELL--
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry to laggy ... good night!
Mickorod Renard: nite Gaya
Liza Deischer: nite Gaya
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Gaya :(
Vertigo Ethaniel: see ya
Zon Quar: nite G
Wol Euler: bye gaya, take care
Mickorod Renard: nite nite gaya
Zon Quar: hm..we didnt respect the bell
Zen Arado: have no idea why he lives in France
Agatha Macbeth: I did :)
Mickorod Renard: sorry, as guardian I must reprimand us all for chatting during the silent bit
Agatha Macbeth: France was the colonial power that ruled Viet Nam originally
Zen Arado: oh?
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
Bertram Jacobus: brave action mick !
Agatha Macbeth: Til about 1954 I think
Zon Quar: yes in 1950 ies?
Mickorod Renard: yes, I wud have thought he would have distanced himself after the trouble was over
Agatha Macbeth: In the fifties anyway
Zen Arado: funny he started an srticle in a magazine I read this morniing with this quote
Zen Arado: “As I see it, there isn’t so much to do. Just be ordinary—put on your robes, eat your food, and pass the time doing nothing.” - Master Linji, Teaching 18
Zen Arado: so have tp practice that :)
Mickorod Renard: that sounds like a good suggestion
Wol Euler: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Don't just do something: lie there
Zon Quar: did he have small children
Vertigo Ethaniel: sounds fantastic
Mickorod Renard: lie there and think of your country?
Agatha Macbeth: It's 'Lie back and think of England' I believe
Zen Arado: it is hard to do nothing
Agatha Macbeth: Sexist
Zon Quar: and u need money
Zon Quar: so u must do something
Zen Arado: yes only works for Englishwomen
Zen Arado: :)
Agatha Macbeth: And racist too then :)
Mickorod Renard: I was trying to be multi cultural
Vertigo Ethaniel: society says you need money
Vertigo Ethaniel: you really dont
Agatha Macbeth: Stormy!
Agatha Macbeth: WOW!
Wol Euler: hello storm
Zen Arado: Hi Storm
Liza Deischer: Hi Storm
Mickorod Renard: Hi Strom
Vertigo Ethaniel: hiya storm
Zon Quar: well i need to pay my bills
Vertigo Ethaniel: you dont need bills
Zon Quar: it only works with money
Mickorod Renard: me too
Wol Euler: ooh, a full circle. We all get bonus karma points now.
Storm Nordwind whispers Hi to everyone
Agatha Macbeth: Don't need Bill's what?
Vertigo Ethaniel: what i mean is, you dont "need" the things that require paying bills
Agatha Macbeth: Karma chameleons?
Vertigo Ethaniel: in the grand scheme of things
Mickorod Renard: food is expensive
Wol Euler: health care
Vertigo Ethaniel: food is free, if you grow it
Agatha Macbeth: Sure is!
Zon Quar: well is u live in cold climate u need
Mickorod Renard: u need land to grow food,,thats expensive
Vertigo Ethaniel: true
Agatha Macbeth: yep
Vertigo Ethaniel: most things in this world have been commoditized
Zon Quar: ur children need clothes
Vertigo Ethaniel: even life itself
Mickorod Renard: could breed fat spiders,,and eat them
Zon Quar: food
Zen Arado: maybe 'doing nothing' has a deeper meaning
Zon Quar: shelter
Liza Deischer: I think so too Zen
Mickorod Renard: if I didnt feed myself the hospital would put me on a drip,,for free
Mickorod Renard: now then,,,I have a question
Agatha Macbeth: Oooh
Mickorod Renard: shall i ask it?
Agatha Macbeth: No :)
Zon Quar: please
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: ok
Liza Deischer: was that the question?
Agatha Macbeth: No that was the answer
Zen Arado: :)
Mickorod Renard: why is it usually wrong for budhists to eat meat?
Zon Quar: its not esthetic
Zen Arado: precept says 'it is not good to kill
Bertram Jacobus: because it´s nice not to cause suffering more then necessairy mick
Storm Nordwind: It's wrong if they want it to be wrong
Liza Deischer: in fact eating meat is not the problem
Mickorod Renard: but are plants not living?
Vertigo Ethaniel: eating meat is not right or wrong
Vertigo Ethaniel: it just is
Zon Quar: its unhealthy
Bertram Jacobus: yes. but the animals eat many plants too before we eat them
Zen Arado: but plants don't suffer as much as sentient beings
Wol Euler: Liza, could you say more please?
Vertigo Ethaniel: humans attribute moral consequences for a variety of reasons, but its not intrinsically bad
Agatha Macbeth: Nice one Bert :)
Zon Quar: try to kill a plant..it doesnt yell
Vertigo Ethaniel: thats debatable
Liza Deischer: I think it is more about the ability to get enlightend
Liza Deischer: plants can't
Mickorod Renard: I know there must be diferent idea's stemming from peoples preferences,,but from purley a budhist or spiritual point of view?
Liza Deischer: But if you eat plants, you kill animals too
Agatha Macbeth: Wasn't it Lyall Watson who said plants feel pain?
Liza Deischer: small ones
Zen Arado: try to avoid causing suffering is key as Liza said
Vertigo Ethaniel: indeed. plants require dead animals to grow
Mickorod Renard: I know its said vines feel the emotions of iminent death
Vertigo Ethaniel: by eating plants, you are eating animals, and vice versa. the cycle doesnt stop.
Liza Deischer: true
Zen Arado: but they don't have pain receptors
Agatha Macbeth: Hmm
Mickorod Renard: I just wondered whether it was to do with reincarnation?
Bertram Jacobus: but you can try to harm so few as possible
Agatha Macbeth: Eh?
Zon Quar: why dont we eat humans
Liza Deischer: whatevr you do, if you move, drive your car, you are killing animals
Agatha Macbeth: Hannibal Lecter did :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: zon, its socially unacceptable
Mickorod Renard: :)
Zon Quar: what so bad about it
Liza Deischer: its got to do with the inprint of killing
Zen Arado: food tabbos
Vertigo Ethaniel: i think there are genetic factors too
Zen Arado: cultural
Agatha Macbeth: Long pig
Mickorod Renard: its suggested that we would inherit ill health by canibalism
Zon Quar: it is socially acceptabel in kannibalistic cultures
Zen Arado: we did back in our past I think
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: I read in science journal the other week that not all canibals inherit poor health from there practice
Mickorod Renard: oops
Agatha Macbeth: Sssh!
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Zon Quar: ill health from eating piggs too
Mickorod Renard: :(
Vertigo Ethaniel: shh
Zon Quar: sry
Zen Arado: if you were starving and there was a dead human around....
Zen Arado: would be such a waste
Mickorod Renard: yes,,there are exceptions
Mickorod Renard: thats another interesting topic
Zen Arado: happened in air crashes
Zon Quar: to me animals r more sentient beings...coarse vibrations..makes u duller
Zon Quar: eating them
Vertigo Ethaniel: cause?
Zen Arado: so much cruelty in intensive farming
Zon Quar: iv expereinced that
Zon Quar: by testing
Mickorod Renard: I have heard it said and even felt so,,that if you love someone very much that the desire to eat them ids strong
Vertigo Ethaniel: oh yes, battery farming is awful
Calvino Rabeni: yes mick, that happens
Zen Arado: Hannibal Lecter again?
Calvino Rabeni: there is a saying from paents to children "you look good enough to eat!"
Agatha Macbeth: Probably
Agatha Macbeth: Hansel and Gretel?
Mickorod Renard: I think that there is a desire to be one
Calvino Rabeni: And I've had that told to me as adult, in non-english speaking country
Bertram Jacobus: the witch agatha ?
Agatha Macbeth: Who's a witch?
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Samantha?
Mickorod Renard: which witch?
Zen Arado: there is a problem in philosopy called 'the cannibal's problem'
Agatha Macbeth: Which witch is which?
Bertram Jacobus: the witch with haensel and gretel agatha - or somebody else ? :o)
Zon Quar: what is that problem zen ?
Agatha Macbeth: Oh *that* witch
Mickorod Renard: watz that Zen?
Agatha Macbeth: Sorry, I know so many.....
Mickorod Renard: Hi Aiden
Zen Arado: what would happen to christian missionaries who had been eaten by cannibals
Liza Deischer: hi Aiden
Zon Quar: hm..
Zen Arado: how would they be resurrected at judgement day?
Agatha Macbeth: In what way Zen?
Agatha Macbeth: Oh I see
Mickorod Renard: I guess they would die
Agatha Macbeth: Same as everyone else?
Zon Quar: i dont believe in resurrection..so i dont have the problem
Zen Arado: it is only a prob if you are a Christian :)
Mickorod Renard: I dont either
Agatha Macbeth: Nice hat Bert
Bertram Jacobus: ty agatha :-)
Vertigo Ethaniel: thats more a theological problem than philosophical :) philosophers arent responsible for a religions shortcomings
Mickorod Renard: I am supposed to be a christian
Zon Quar: or how many enagels can stans in the needle
Wol Euler: surely it wouldn't be a problem, no more than having lost teeth or a leg is.
Storm Nordwind: DId someone tell you to be, Mick?!
Vertigo Ethaniel: youre supposed to be whatever youre comfortable with
Agatha Macbeth: ;-)
Zen Arado: resurrection is such a big idea to grasp
Mickorod Renard: no, not at all Storm,,maybe I am not
Vertigo Ethaniel: personally, i tend towards a shinto/pagan/agnostic bend
Vertigo Ethaniel is weird
Agatha Macbeth: Well that covers the field :)
Storm Nordwind: Some very disparate things there Vertigo!
Mickorod Renard: he he
Vertigo Ethaniel: yep i am conflicted
Agatha Macbeth: Each-way bet?
Mickorod Renard: I saw something on the television the other day(so must be true) that Jesus attended budhist lessons
Zon Quar: i think os
Vertigo Ethaniel: he was also a huge stoner
Wol Euler chortles at the thought of finding truths on TV.
Zon Quar: he wandered in india iv heard
Zen Arado: could be or met some 'wise men' from the East
Agatha Macbeth: Or finding anything on TV
Agatha Macbeth: Worth watching
Mickorod Renard: was he a vegitarian?
Zon Quar: so many years without information of his moves
Agatha Macbeth: They were Magi
Zen Arado: yes
Storm Nordwind: Reminds me of the Zen story: http://deoxy.org/koan/16
Wol Euler nods. How true.
Agatha Macbeth: Nice Storm :)
Zon Quar: nods
Vertigo Ethaniel has reached PLATINUM KARMA
Agatha Macbeth: BONG!
Zon Quar: wisdom is eternal
Zen Arado: yes lots of Jesus's teaching like koans too
Zon Quar: not possed by one person
Mickorod Renard: yes super piece
Calvino Rabeni: No one chooses their religion - it chooses them
Zen Arado: means I don't understand them :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: interesting idea, i had not considered the thought of jesus travelling
Zon Quar: he was an essean
Mickorod Renard: well, i think there are very interesting things in many scriptures,,I like reading them all
Agatha Macbeth: Well there is a school of thought that he died in Kashmir
Wol Euler: thank you for that link, Storm, I'll have to bookmark that site :)
Zen Arado: oh yes great teachings in the Bible
Zen Arado: great wisdom stories
Zon Quar: yes, the books of Moses
Zon Quar: and new testament
Vertigo Ethaniel: hiya arabella
Zon Quar: but also
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Ara
Zen Arado: Hi Ara
Wol Euler: lots of Buddha in Ecclesiastes
arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!!!
Wol Euler: hello ara
Zon Quar: lots of trivial things
Mickorod Renard: some open up to you and become very interesting,,just like any story if you get imersed
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, I thought it was Tao in ecclesiastes
Zen Arado: 'in much knowledge there is much grief' Wol
Wol Euler grins.
Agatha Macbeth: Or vice-versa :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: yes, ecclesiastes is the most interesting book in the entire bible imo
Liza Deischer: hi Ara
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
Mickorod Renard: oops
Liza Deischer: getting wet Aiden?
Mickorod Renard: shhhhh
Aidan Spiritor: s/orry
Agatha Macbeth: (Nice wet bum)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Aidan Spiritor: sorry
Qt Core: have to go, bye all
Agatha Macbeth: Ciao QT :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Qt,,nice seein ya
Zon Quar: the book of job is great
Liza Deischer: bye QT
Vertigo Ethaniel: the lesson that wisdom is the most important thing in the universe holds very true
arabella Ella: notte Qt
Wol Euler: bye qt, take care
Vertigo Ethaniel: (might as well break silence)
Zen Arado: bye Qt
Calvino Rabeni: OK, now 90 seconds of silence?
Zen Arado: :)
Calvino Rabeni: or not,
Mickorod Renard: we are past time///I think
Agatha Macbeth: 90 secs of no typing?
Zen Arado: of doing nothiing
Bertram Jacobus: most important ? also love and light i think vertigo ...
Zen Arado: you see how hard it is :)
Calvino Rabeni: The interesting thing is we can all choose our religion on personal criteria, in this age
Vertigo Ethaniel: perhaps, it depends on the person
Mickorod Renard: love and light ,,very important
Calvino Rabeni: that should occasion much grief
Vertigo Ethaniel: they are certainly up there
Calvino Rabeni: due to the burdenof knowledge involved
Bertram Jacobus: may be it doesn´t depend always vertgo
Mickorod Renard: some still have problems with freedom
Zon Quar: some ?
Calvino Rabeni: Reminds me of a song "freedom from choice... is what U want"
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Zen Arado: 'another word for nothig left to do
Mickorod Renard: I also think..that 'many feel that it may be not cool to be linked to a religion
Calvino Rabeni: can't help it though
Zon Quar: it is natural i think
Zon Quar: to start by doubting
Aidan Spiritor: can't help it--why?
Storm Nordwind: Doubt is a great purifier
Zon Quar: yes
arabella Ella: cant help ... what?
Zon Quar: without doubt i u cant find
Calvino Rabeni: one is born already human, becomes social already enculturated, both of these imply religion
Mickorod Renard: the benefit of intersting notions that are written in holy booksbut many deny themselves
Aidan Spiritor: Joining a religion, as said earlier by Calvino?
arabella Ella: social and enculturated implies community not religion
Vertigo Ethaniel: religion is an illusion, its what you believe and what you know which matters
Calvino Rabeni: Joining is only a slight adjustment to what one had before
Mickorod Renard: oops,,am I writting back to front?
Agatha Macbeth: Arabic?
Zon Quar: we should distinguish organised religions and religioisness
Aidan Spiritor: Or perhaps spirituality?
Calvino Rabeni: people have an important fantasy - that they choose culture
Vertigo Ethaniel: and yes, critically thinking about your beliefs should be taught in school
Zon Quar: nods
arabella Ella: spirituality i think you mean Zon
Calvino Rabeni: Probably more like the other way around
Aidan Spiritor: Zon??
Calvino Rabeni: and every culture has its own deep metaphysics
Calvino Rabeni: so in that way, the religion has made the people
Zon Quar: depends how we define words..spirituality or pure religiousness
Vertigo Ethaniel: i am not religious, i am spiritual and i seek the truth
Zon Quar: words,,
Vertigo Ethaniel: not words
Calvino Rabeni: buddhism is not understood in the west, except as a modification to an essentially christian world view
Vertigo Ethaniel: reality
Storm Nordwind: Yes words
Bertram Jacobus: there are many various understanding of "relgion" ...
Zen Arado: difficult ambiguous words...
Storm Nordwind: Your choice of their meaning
Mickorod Renard: most people that are religious only see themselves as spiritual
Vertigo Ethaniel: religiousness by definition means you are indoctrinated by outside forces
Mickorod Renard: religious is a label that others put on them
Calvino Rabeni: yes, and that is true, vertigo
Zon Quar: not to me
Mickorod Renard: then I am not religious
Calvino Rabeni: we are indoctrinated
Liza Deischer: not to me either
Zon Quar: we can choose what we mean
arabella Ella: not all are indoctrinated Vertigo ... some make free choices too to join or adopt a new religion
Calvino Rabeni: it only seems free
Vertigo Ethaniel: i have no real religion, which is what i am getting at
Liza Deischer: no it is free
Vertigo Ethaniel: you dont have to believe what others say jsut for the sake of it
arabella Ella: why 'real' religion Vertigo ... are there others not so real?
Vertigo Ethaniel: make your own mind up
Liza Deischer: youre taking on the not-freedom yourself
Calvino Rabeni: eventually you may discover the real religion you had all along
Zon Quar: nod..religion as an institution..a doctrine..is an idea
Mickorod Renard: I dont have a real religion as such,,as all the christians I know seem crazy
Vertigo Ethaniel: perhaps
Liza Deischer: dont think your free if your not religious, but spiritual
Agatha Macbeth: Yes Mick :)
Zen Arado: 'men are born free but everywhere they are in chains' Rousseau
Mickorod Renard: :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: i have been religious, and it led me down the wrong path
Aidan Spiritor: Is athiesm a religion?
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Mickorod Renard: I think even science is a religion
Aidan Spiritor: How so?
Zen Arado: I think science is the new religion
Agatha Macbeth: Could be
Zen Arado: :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: agnostism is debatable not a religion
Vertigo Ethaniel: as is science
arabella Ella: some people treat science in the same way as others treat a god
Aidan Spiritor: Actually its bee around for quite awhile..
Storm Nordwind: Religion derives from the Latin meaning "to link back". You can choose what you link back to. You don't need someone else choosing for you.
Calvino Rabeni: Wol referenced a book quite a while back - "this is water"
Agatha Macbeth: Knowing rather than believing?
Vertigo Ethaniel: both are based on the assumption of "i dont know"
Vertigo Ethaniel: and go from there
Calvino Rabeni: It addresses some of these ideas
Wol Euler smiles. You read it, Calvino?
Zen Arado: it is a big teaching in Zen
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, it took all day long :)
Wol Euler: :)
Aidan Spiritor: If religion is about linking back or reconnecting why do so many create divisions?
Calvino Rabeni: everyone worships
Wol Euler: hello angelo
Agatha Macbeth: (Did someone just walk on me?)
Angelo Nerido: oooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Mickorod Renard: but I feel,,in my innards,,that we all need something to ponder over,,something spiritual,,and where one finds that is there freedom
Storm Nordwind: Because, Aidan, people make different choices
--BELL--
Wol Euler: I'll give you an introduction in IM so as not to disturb the others
Mickorod Renard: thanks wol
Mickorod Renard: their*
Aidan Spiritor: Not sure I get your point..
Zen Arado: the problem is when you cling to beliefs i think
Zon Quar: thinking..believing in ideas dont make on free
Vertigo Ethaniel: yes zen, especially under evidence to the contrary
Vertigo Ethaniel: that is truely close-minded
Aidan Spiritor: Ideas can be liberating as long as they are loosly held..
Storm Nordwind: Aidan, there are many choices of things to link back to, and many choices of method. No wonder there is diversity!
Calvino Rabeni: When people make divisions, probably from their point of view they think they are making clarifications and simplifications
Aidan Spiritor: Diversity is great but the problem arises with dogma..
Aidan Spiritor: I'm right and you're wrong for eg..
Mickorod Renard: as it has been discovered during Pab sessions in the past,,there is much that we all share..regardless of our beliefs that have names
Zen Arado: the Dalai Lama says you need the diversity of religions because of the difference in cultures
Storm Nordwind: Dogma is separate, Aiden. Some methods have it. Some don't. You gets what you chooses.
Zen Arado: there will never be a universal religion
Vertigo Ethaniel: bahai is getting close, zen
Mickorod Renard: maybe Pab is one?
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Storm Nordwind: Only one Mick? ;)
Aidan Spiritor: Yes that makes sense as long as the views are loosly held and open to new knowledge..
Mickorod Renard: or many
Zon Quar: the word religion is as Strom said..re joining..like yoga ..gome together..so its not so bad ..as insitutionalised religion which is different to me and is often dogmatic
Calvino Rabeni: In making divisions, people create a "this but not that" distinction, then assume "that" will be discarded, improving life for all concerned.
Aidan Spiritor: Most modern relirions are not so religious ..
Calvino Rabeni: Religions are about making choices also, not just unification
Aidan Spiritor: *religions
Calvino Rabeni: Discrimination is part of it
Vertigo Ethaniel: i disagree. i think that beliefs are one thing, but when you take it seriously without a critical mind, it becomes religion
Bertram Jacobus: hehe bone ... :-))
Mickorod Renard: even the bible is open to much personal interpretation,,anyone will tell you that it speaks to you individually,,in other words,,u take from it what you need
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
Aidan Spiritor: Even the born agains?
Storm Nordwind: There is a place of fuzzy logic Cal. One need not exclude all parts of the other
Storm Nordwind: *for
Calvino Rabeni: To the contrary of the modern "perennial" philosophy that says, all is one
Mickorod Renard: Hi mikey
Mikey673 Geesink: Hey
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that's my implication, but it looks like the middle is excluded
Calvino Rabeni: This is "can" vs "is"
Storm Nordwind: Not what I've found Cal. There are multitudes of eclectics out there
arabella Ella nods to Storm
Aidan Spiritor: And syncretics..
Wol Euler: bye liza, takecare
arabella Ella: what is a syncretic?
Aidan Spiritor: syncretists..
Zen Arado: bye Liza
Mickorod Renard: bye liza
Aidan Spiritor: bye Lisa
Zon Quar: bye Lisa
Agatha Macbeth: To't ziens Lisa
Mickorod Renard: is Mikey still here?
Liza Deischer: Im going
Liza Deischer: nite everybody
Storm Nordwind waves
arabella Ella: nite Liza
Mickorod Renard: nite Liza
Vertigo Ethaniel: see ya liza
Mickorod Renard: I have lost Mikey
Aidan Spiritor: One who choses from various religions and philosophies to create their own world view or religion/philosophy..
Agatha Macbeth: Careless Mick ;-)
arabella Ella: oh like a recipe you mean?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a big soup
Aidan Spiritor: More lile a buffet..
Calvino Rabeni: It all goes into the same stomach
Aidan Spiritor: *like
Agatha Macbeth: Pot pourri?
Mickorod Renard: I am sure that anyone who searches...is ok with me
Yakuzza Lethecus: ngiht
Storm Nordwind: Or a diet?
Aidan Spiritor: You have the idea..
Vertigo Ethaniel: i believe what i believe. why? i dont know, its just what feels right
Agatha Macbeth: Schlaf gut Yaku
Calvino Rabeni: could be like that too
Zen Arado: bye Yaku
Aidan Spiritor: Often looked down upon..
Mickorod Renard: bye yaku
Zon Quar: bye Yaku
Zon Quar: one can only know what one knows
Vertigo Ethaniel: the wiccan creed of believe what you will, so long as you harm none, is a great wisdom that should be taught at an early age
Storm Nordwind: Institutions have no controls over eclectics or syncretics. No wonder they're unpopular!
Aidan Spiritor: Feelings alone can be a dangerous guide..
Agatha Macbeth: Yes! :)
Calvino Rabeni: If one doesn't know why one believes something, it may be someone else's belief
arabella Ella: i think most people are religious as a circumstance of the place where they were born but ... it is very difficult for intelligent people to toe a line ... and this applies to politics too
Calvino Rabeni: Thinking alone is a dangerous guide also
Storm Nordwind: You mean there are safe guides Cal?
Mickorod Renard: yes,,egotism is a scary realm
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Aidan Spiritor: Agree, heart and mind seem a better combination..
Calvino Rabeni: No guide taken singly could be safe
Vertigo Ethaniel: id agree with that
Agatha Macbeth: Yup
Aidan Spiritor: Much wisdom in feelings..
Zon Quar: u can only think alone
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: no
Agatha Macbeth: True Aidan :)
Storm Nordwind: And your alternative - to dispanse with guides altogether? Or something else?
Calvino Rabeni: u think with others
Vertigo Ethaniel: i think differently with others, than i do alone
arabella Ella: wisdom tho only comes with time age and experience
Storm Nordwind nods to ara
Zon Quar: only u can decide
Zon Quar: what u beleive
Mickorod Renard: I talk with myself,,he is so clever
Zon Quar: not others
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Agatha Macbeth: Do you answer tho Mick? :)
arabella Ella: and does Mick listen to 'myself'?
Calvino Rabeni: Thinking with and beyond guides, is a kind of alternative to thinking within them simplistically
Mickorod Renard: I cannot give away confidential stuff,,sorry
Agatha Macbeth: Who is 'myself.?
Mickorod Renard: isnt this where we strarted?
Storm Nordwind whispers: "It's when Mick argues and then loses the argument that problems arise!"
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: I am me
Zon Quar: no i am me
Agatha Macbeth: (I've been listening to Pema too much)
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: no wonder i talk to myself,,you guys are all crazy!
Calvino Rabeni: Don't listen to that Pema guy - listen to the Pema "within" :)
Agatha Macbeth: No Mick, it's *you* who's crazy!!!!
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Storm Nordwind: It's a show put on specially for you Mick
Zon Quar: now u notice
Mickorod Renard: you mean me?
Agatha Macbeth: grins
Calvino Rabeni: I beg your pardon - no one around here is crazy except myself :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Zon Quar: no me too¨
Bertram Jacobus: i´m normal
Zon Quar: and i like it
Agatha Macbeth: What is 'normal' Bert?
Bertram Jacobus: normal is what most do
Bertram Jacobus: or are
Zon Quar: me to cause im me totehger with Mick
Mickorod Renard: thankyou,,I will try
Agatha Macbeth: You think? :)
Bertram Jacobus: beyond crazyness agatha :o)
Wol Euler: bye zen, zon
Vertigo Ethaniel: this has been a productive and long session
Aidan Spiritor: Me too..
Storm Nordwind waves
Mickorod Renard: love to you all
Agatha Macbeth: Zon zen zen zon....
Agatha Macbeth: Where's Zin?
Bertram Jacobus: may be with the teletubbies
Agatha Macbeth: Probably :)
Calvino Rabeni: O indeed, I am completely normal as well too Bert
Calvino Rabeni: which is a big part of the issue
Agatha Macbeth: (Not)
Bertram Jacobus: completly is a big word ... ;-)
arabella Ella: i must go too but what you bring to mind is ... how normal does SL allow us to be?
Agatha Macbeth: So is completely :)
Storm Nordwind waves
Wol Euler: well, let us distinguish please between "normal" and "average"
Wol Euler: average is what "most people do", but that is sometimes quite abnormal IMHO
Bertram Jacobus: how would you describe the differences wol ? betwenn the both words ?
Calvino Rabeni: May all beings be "normal" - and if they can't be nornal, then be as normal as they CAN be.
Agatha Macbeth: Yep ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: ah. there it is already ! :-)
Vertigo Ethaniel: most people do what is socially acceptable, so normal can just mean exactly that
Wol Euler: "normal" is a value judgement, "average" is just a quantity
Bertram Jacobus: many people link normal with god or bad
Agatha Macbeth: I guess
Storm Nordwind: So "social norms" should be reworded "social averages"? ;)
Agatha Macbeth: God?
Agatha Macbeth: Freudian slip Bert :)
Bertram Jacobus: god good yes
Wol Euler: heeheheh
Calvino Rabeni: Normal is a fictive state people use for criticism more often than aspiration
Bertram Jacobus: lol
Vertigo Ethaniel: thats very true calvino
Agatha Macbeth: Oh right
Storm Nordwind: In that sense, both are what other people apply to me, but neither is what I apply to myself
Calvino Rabeni: The soup would be pretty bland, if all the ingredients were average
Agatha Macbeth: :) Storm
Wol Euler: yes, storm, they are both externals
Wol Euler: like chasing after "cool", it's letting other people guide your life
Agatha Macbeth: Yes!
Bertram Jacobus: was / is a long session this time ! i´ll leave - ty all and have a nice time please ! :-)
Storm Nordwind waves
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, stay normal Bert :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: see ya bertram, good chatting
Agatha Macbeth: Auf wiedersehen Berti :)
Wol Euler: ciao bert
Bertram Jacobus: thx again :-)
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bone
Bone Darkmatter: bye. that was nice to listen to you.
Wol Euler: bye bone, take care
Wol Euler: did someone give him the intro, btw?
Agatha Macbeth: Good job his second name isn't 'Head'
Calvino Rabeni: I think I have seen him here before
Wol Euler: heheh
Wol Euler: only eight days old, and already partnered. Interesting.
Agatha Macbeth: And he came back? :)
Storm Nordwind: An alt perhaps
Wol Euler: probably
Agatha Macbeth: No stoppin' some!
Wol Euler: it costs money to be partnered, and he had no payment details :)
Calvino Rabeni: Who knows "Flux Constantine"?
Vertigo Ethaniel: my ex found a SL partner a week or so after breaking up with my in RL.. it happens
Wol Euler: wow
Agatha Macbeth: Ooooooops! ;-)
--BELL--
Agatha Macbeth: So it goes
Vertigo Ethaniel: 5 years it was, what a nightmare
Vertigo Ethaniel: not the time together, the afterwards
Agatha Macbeth: Mmmm :(
Wol Euler: I'm sorry to hear it, Vertigo
Agatha Macbeth: Happens to us all mate
Vertigo Ethaniel: mmm
Storm Nordwind: Happened to me. Positively.
Agatha Macbeth: (Some more than others)
Wol Euler grins. That it did.
Agatha Macbeth: Oooh dark past storm?
Wol Euler: bright present :)
Storm Nordwind grins
Calvino Rabeni: That's where the name comes from storm?
Agatha Macbeth: Yes! Lucky you :)
Storm Nordwind: My name is Storm in RL as well as SL
Calvino Rabeni: How interesting and somewhat inspiring
Storm Nordwind: I broke up with my ex of 10 years 3 years ago. I met my now wife in SL almost immediately
Calvino Rabeni: That is a bit heart-warming
Vertigo Ethaniel: ouch storm, that must have been painful
Vertigo Ethaniel: at the time
Storm Nordwind: I could have chosen to spin out the pain if I'd wanted to. But perhaps "all things work together for good"
Wol Euler nods
Vertigo Ethaniel: mm
Wol Euler: happy new year, gina. Haven't seen you in a while
Agatha Macbeth: Yes Storm :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: i find myself holding onto hope for a possible future for us, down the road
Storm Nordwind: Know only that there is a future! :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: well yes
Vertigo Ethaniel: :)
Calvino Rabeni: And there is hope
Storm Nordwind: If anyone had suggested 3 years ago that I would be sitting here, 4300 miles away, having the happiest time of my life... I would have been incredulous
Wol Euler smiles.
Agatha Macbeth: Such is life Storm
Calvino Rabeni: :) I've had that sense at times
Vertigo Ethaniel: i am happy for you storm
Vertigo Ethaniel: and people tell me that there will be others, but right now that doesnt really help... as i want her
Vertigo Ethaniel: time may tell that i may move on from her, but not right now
Wol Euler nods
Agatha Macbeth: Sometimes
Storm Nordwind: Of course. No matter whose fault it is, no matter who leaves whom, it is like doing surgery on yourself without an anaesthetic
Vertigo Ethaniel: oh yea.
Agatha Macbeth: Ouch
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Agatha Macbeth: What's Colorado like then?
Storm Nordwind: Colorado... 300 sunny days a year. Unlike my previous home with 300 dismal rainy days a year!
Wol Euler: heheheheheh
Wol Euler: go on, admit that you miss the rain.
Agatha Macbeth: Improvement then ;-)
Storm Nordwind: I get plenty of snow instead Wol! And who would miss interminable cloudbase of 500ft
Agatha Macbeth: What's the altitude like where you are Storm?
Calvino Rabeni: Colorado is 1/2 flat, and 1/2 very bumpy
Storm Nordwind: About 5600ft Agatha
Wol Euler: wow
Calvino Rabeni: spring comes late
Calvino Rabeni: winters are bright
Agatha Macbeth: Near Denver?
Storm Nordwind: Yes
Agatha Macbeth: Ah yes
Calvino Rabeni: summers have much electrical activity in the atmosphere
Vertigo Ethaniel: i prefer rain tbh!
Agatha Macbeth: I'm a Broncos Fan ;-)
Vertigo Ethaniel: yes, and thunderstorms
Vertigo Ethaniel purrs
Storm Nordwind: Someone has to be, Agatha!
Wol Euler: rimshot.
Agatha Macbeth: oi!
Agatha Macbeth: remember John Elway!
Storm Nordwind: We're never allowed to forget him
Agatha Macbeth: Back to back Superbowls :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hee hee
Agatha Macbeth: Shame they don't have him now :(
Calvino Rabeni: Have you taken up any local customs, Storm?
Storm Nordwind: Other than driving on the right, what do you have in mind Cal?
Agatha Macbeth: :)
--BELL--
Wol Euler: heh
Calvino Rabeni: Skiing, riding horses, panning for gold, hiking in mountains, elk watching
Vertigo Ethaniel: hiking in the mountains
Agatha Macbeth: You *do* drive on the right don't you?
Vertigo Ethaniel: that, i could do my entire life
Vertigo Ethaniel: i dont, agatha
Storm Nordwind: Fending off cougars, arttlers and bears and avoiding brushing against Black Widow spiders
Vertigo Ethaniel: but i live in new zealand
Agatha Macbeth: Not you!
Storm Nordwind: *rattlers
Agatha Macbeth: Same 2 U
Vertigo Ethaniel: just sayin :P
Agatha Macbeth: Lots of sheep Vertigo?
Storm Nordwind: Eating Nepalese cuisine in the second Land of the Snows. mmmmmmm
Vertigo Ethaniel: i havent seen one for over a year
Vertigo Ethaniel: but i do live in the biggest city in the country
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Calvino Rabeni: Re your list storm - all important colorado skills
Calvino Rabeni: Especially the snakes
Calvino Rabeni: And don't hike after 12pm in summer
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, the snakes
Agatha Macbeth: loves herpetology
Storm Nordwind: Fending off the rightwingers too
Agatha Macbeth: Oh, there too?
Wol Euler: heh
Storm Nordwind: Everything is at least a quarter spectrum over to the right here.
Wol Euler nods
Vertigo Ethaniel: someone mentioned earlier that humans are distinct in that they think
Vertigo Ethaniel: http://vision02.com/birds-have-feelings/ <-- pure emotion there
Calvino Rabeni: that is a human vanity
Wol Euler: I think that#s only true for certain values of "thinking"
Agatha Macbeth: Animals don't think?
Vertigo Ethaniel: zon said so
Storm Nordwind: Those at http://icanhascheezburger.com/ certainly do! ;-))
Agatha Macbeth: They don't survive very long then :)
Wol Euler: right
Calvino Rabeni: Why valorize our own "values" of thinking...
Agatha Macbeth: Animals probably think we're idiots
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed they may
Wol Euler: running around when we could be napping
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
Calvino Rabeni: NOt eating locally
Agatha Macbeth: That too
Storm Nordwind: "For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons."
Wol Euler smiles and nods
Agatha Macbeth: So long and thanks for all the fish :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: i agree with the not eating locally thing
Agatha Macbeth: Well if you don't see any sheep you can't eat 'em
Calvino Rabeni: GTG suddenly, thanks for the chat all, take care and be normal as you like. :)
Vertigo Ethaniel: hah hah
Wol Euler: bye calvino, be non-average.
Vertigo Ethaniel: see ya calvino
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed
Storm Nordwind: Bye Cal. Just be
Vertigo Ethaniel: well, iots probably time that i got going today
Agatha Macbeth: Is that one of Fael's flowers in the middle of the fountain?
Wol Euler: it is, one of hte first in fact
Vertigo Ethaniel: thank you all for the lovely chat
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, nice
Wol Euler: bye vertigo, take care
Agatha Macbeth: Oh, bye Vert
Storm Nordwind waves
Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste
Storm Nordwind: Tonight is 12th night. Must take down the decorations! :)
Wol Euler: ah, yes.
Agatha Macbeth: I already have!
Wol Euler: well, for those of us wiht decorations
Agatha Macbeth: Nice of you to drop by Shawn :)
Wol Euler reads and gets all verklemmt: http://deoxy.org/koan/37
Agatha Macbeth: (Or drop out)
Wol Euler: yeah, I've given up greeting noobs until/unless they actually sit
Agatha Macbeth: They probably think 'Who are these nutters'
Wol Euler: heh
Wol Euler: as do we, eh?
Agatha Macbeth: Surely :)
Agatha Macbeth: Well is the listener behaving then?
Wol Euler: it always behaves well as long as someone is here. The problem comes when everyone leaves and it *should* shut down.
Agatha Macbeth: Does it not shut down properly?
Wol Euler: aparently not
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Storm Nordwind: I can always send it a signal, unless it only looks for guardians
--BELL--
Agatha Macbeth: I've noticed sometimes it detatches from me long after I left the Pavilion...
Wol Euler: I've logged my alt in, and set the debugging to send its messages to her.
Wol Euler: let's let it finish up normally and she will see what happens
Storm Nordwind: That might be your client/netlink perhaps?
Wol Euler: possibly, yes. I know that for a while I was getting "stale" IMs delivered to my email account
Storm Nordwind: Well if you need to be part of the signal that resets everything around here when there's no one here, let me know. Those it's hardly special as you can imagine.
Storm Nordwind: *though
Wol Euler: oh, do you restart the sim?
Storm Nordwind: Noooo!!!
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Storm Nordwind: I just force all the seating to default, and the pool and the counter on the noticeboard starts to count the minutes to the next session
Wol Euler: hmmmmm
Wol Euler: the autologger has its own scanner routine, I'd rather not try to rejig that
Wol Euler: I think it's a logic bomb, but I just can't see it.
Agatha Macbeth: (Soooooooo technical!)
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind: geekspeek
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Wol Euler: http://deoxy.org/koan/57
Agatha Macbeth: When does it actually stop recording then?
Storm Nordwind: I love them all!
Wol Euler smiles a "thank you" at Storm
Wol Euler: as soon as the last guardian leaves, Agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Ah right
Storm Nordwind: I got a book by Paul Reps 35 years ago called "Zen Flesh. Zen Bones." They're all in there Wol.
Wol Euler: though if less than thirty minutes after the starting time, it goes into a "wait" mode in case people return
Wol Euler makes a note. Ty
Agatha Macbeth: Oh right
Storm Nordwind: It has the Gateless Gate and the 10 Bulls in there too
Agatha Macbeth: 10 bulls?
Wol Euler: the oxen herding paintings?
Storm Nordwind: yes
Agatha Macbeth: What a load of bull ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Get a few beefburgers out of that lot
Storm Nordwind: http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Flesh-Bone.../dp/0804831866
Storm Nordwind: But I prefer the original cover! ;)
Agatha Macbeth: What's the $ > £ rate now?
Storm Nordwind: http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/pe...ooks/262-1.jpg
Wol Euler: ty
Storm Nordwind: It's time for Storm to go.
Agatha Macbeth: Tatty bye Storm
Wol Euler: bye storm, take care.
Storm Nordwind: Get some sleep Wol!
Wol Euler: I'll try
Agatha Macbeth: Or should I say See ya!
Wol Euler: agatha, 1$ = 0.63 Sterling
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
Agatha Macbeth: Ah thanks
Agatha Macbeth: And away he flies....
Wol Euler: yep
Agatha Macbeth: How's yer lip?
Wol Euler: sore
Wol Euler: shall we adjourn, so I can see what happens? we can go to my dance hallk
Agatha Macbeth: Dance hallk?
Wol Euler: -k
Agatha Macbeth: Oh. The incredible hallk?
Wol Euler: yep
Wol Euler: walk this way
Agatha Macbeth: If I walk that way....