2010.01.13 19:00 - Images and Words

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

    Calvino Rabeni and I began with a discussion that began at the 1:00 AM conversation the previous night that we both attended... the conversation then moved to work and meditation.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: aww, there you are
    stevenaia Michinaga: how are you this evening... do you attend all sessions
    Calvino Rabeni: Good .. it varies, this time slot is easy
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, but 4:00 am
    Calvino Rabeni: I like to catch the eurpoean members though, so I think 1pm works
    Calvino Rabeni: 4am where you are?
    stevenaia Michinaga: East coast
    stevenaia Michinaga: those meeting work perfectly for those non-continuous sleeping nights for me
    Calvino Rabeni: is that a lifestyle choice or just happens sometimes?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect it is food related, spouse says it is age related, so I may be on at that hour more
    Calvino Rabeni: some of my friends have food things that interfere with sleep
    stevenaia Michinaga: wasn't caffine or upset stomach, just awakeness
    Calvino Rabeni: not uncomfortable
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, or discomfort
    stevenaia Michinaga: one of those interesteting places we were talking about earlier
    Calvino Rabeni: I remember
    stevenaia Michinaga: a place to drift between non-dreaming sleep and awakeness
    stevenaia Michinaga: no-alert awakeness
    stevenaia Michinaga: non-
    stevenaia Michinaga: an empty place - time to lay awake
    Calvino Rabeni: I find posture important in meditative practices
    Calvino Rabeni: If I had the condition you are talking about I might get up from bed and sit with the lights out
    stevenaia Michinaga: I do that at my office, but more to take a nap
    stevenaia Michinaga: an usually I'm horizontal, I don;t do to much sitting/meditating except here and perhaps when I work
    stevenaia Michinaga: productive meditation
    Calvino Rabeni: when you work?
    stevenaia Michinaga: when I am focused on a thought
    stevenaia Michinaga: much of what I do is contemplation on a problem
    Calvino Rabeni: Are you saying during work you do contemplative thinking of some kind
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I guess then.
    stevenaia Michinaga: the solution emerges with time
    stevenaia Michinaga: it's a very close relationship with the issue at hand :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: an the issue is ever changing, which keep you focused
    Calvino Rabeni: Are you systematic or methodical with awareness aspects ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect methodical, the process is always the same, the problem is what changes each time
    stevenaia Michinaga: I view the process as.....you start with the universe and end with a door handle
    Calvino Rabeni: The door handle meaning the concrete result
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, an end, you select some last thing
    Calvino Rabeni: At first I thought, it was a metaphor for a way of handling an issue (the handle on the issue)
    stevenaia Michinaga: a metaphorical door handle, of course
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, something like that, both real and figurative door handle

    stevenaia Michinaga: [19:39] Radar: Leaving chat range: Calvino Rabeni
    stevenaia Michinaga: wb

    Calvino Rabeni: It could be considered an awareness practice, or annoyance, to avoid the Q key
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: I've done that, shift and command can be to close when you hit the Q
    Calvino Rabeni: Your work is creative and intellectual
    stevenaia Michinaga: usually
    stevenaia Michinaga: and social
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems i worthwhile, but difficult, to find out how exactly people go about their creative processes.
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, like consciousness, easy to watch , difficult to explain
    Calvino Rabeni: It's difficult due to the observer paradox
    Calvino Rabeni: The explanation part is easier than that, I think
    Calvino Rabeni: The observation itself is the harder part
    Calvino Rabeni: Due to the need for a split attention that looks both ways
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a fairly complex mental condition
    stevenaia Michinaga: but you can observe, and describe, but it may have nothing to do with the act you are watching
    stevenaia Michinaga: like watching someone meditate
    stevenaia Michinaga: what does it mean to someone who does not meditate
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean, what happens when a person attempts to become aware of their mental process, while at the same time engaging in that process without disturbing it too much
    Calvino Rabeni: I am talking about more ordinary things
    Calvino Rabeni: like, ask a musician - what exactly is it you do when you are writing a song
    Calvino Rabeni: Or jamming in a band
    Calvino Rabeni: Same with a writer perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: About the creative part that is,
    Calvino Rabeni: presumably the mechanical part is a little easier to observe\
    stevenaia Michinaga: is it even possible to explain, as what it is you are asking is non-verbal
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, I think that problem is overrated
    Calvino Rabeni: The problem I think you are referring to
    Calvino Rabeni: I think the observation itself is the main block to success
    stevenaia Michinaga: we did a little exercise at the first retreat which evolved
    stevenaia Michinaga: we passed around paper and everyone began to draw
    stevenaia Michinaga: then one smartypants felt is should be a 9 second excersize
    stevenaia Michinaga: so every 9 seconds we passed whatever we were working on to the person to the right
    stevenaia Michinaga: the drawings are on the wiki somewhere
    stevenaia Michinaga: but the point I was trying to make was everyone became quiet during the process
    stevenaia Michinaga: and whatever emerged had 9 seconds to materialize on the paper before the image in front of you left and was replaced by another
    Calvino Rabeni: how did you like doing that?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I initially felt it should have been longer than 9 seconds, but we all adapted
    stevenaia Michinaga: it was very creative
    stevenaia Michinaga: and put you in a new frame of reference
    Calvino Rabeni: To get into that new frame, what was dropped, what came in its place?
    stevenaia Michinaga: time was dropped, the space between the images emerged to fill with ned images
    stevenaia Michinaga: new
    Calvino Rabeni: Did you learn a new, if tacit, skill?
    stevenaia Michinaga: no
    stevenaia Michinaga: it was a skill I wanted to share with the group
    Calvino Rabeni: Your idea, the 9-second timing?
    stevenaia Michinaga: thinking non-verbally
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    stevenaia Michinaga: no another took the 9 second idea to this task, I just presented the task
    Calvino Rabeni: so it used cognitive abilities you already had on tap
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: For others, it could have been more a learning experience
    stevenaia Michinaga: I gave it no time frame
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it could have been for them
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: hiya steve cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) Paradise
    stevenaia Michinaga: although some asked if they could use words
    Calvino Rabeni: Did this story occur to you, in order to carry on with the conversation we were having earlier?
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: just related to the work (draw) -meditation discussion we had and how I offered it as a tool at the first retreat
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Paradise Tennant: YES
    Calvino Rabeni: You remember, Para?
    stevenaia Michinaga: the first Princeton retreat, Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: well we talked about different meditation techniques at princeton
    Paradise Tennant: but I was at the second retreat
    Paradise Tennant: or the most recent
    Paradise Tennant: ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: the first one was a year earlier
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Events/PaB_Fest_2008.10.18_@_IAS_by_Genesis_Zhangsun
    Paradise Tennant: ahh kk
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s mentioned in the second last paragraph
    Paradise Tennant: kk
    Calvino Rabeni: I see this as about, the challenges of observing creative process
    Calvino Rabeni: Everyone spends much of their days in creative process of one kind or another
    stevenaia Michinaga: from the point of view of the doer
    Paradise Tennant: :) or simply stepping out of its way :)
    Calvino Rabeni: whether it is regarded as such or not, by virtue of its end products
    stevenaia Michinaga: here they are
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Real_life_meetings/PaB_Fest_17_-_19_October
    Calvino Rabeni: the observation process seems to interfere with the creative process, for many people, which is what I think Para is referring to
    stevenaia Michinaga: images at the bottom
    Calvino Rabeni: And i think that is the more difficult thing about it
    Calvino Rabeni: compared to the "description problem" which is more of a paper tiger
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Athletics is one area where coaching often tries to account for the "inner game"
    Calvino Rabeni: that is, the internal aspect of what is going on behind the physical performance
    Paradise Tennant: meditative visualization .. I think is a powerful tool to harness creativity
    Calvino Rabeni: Probably the performance aspect, kind of legitimizes the attempt to even do that kind of thing
    stevenaia Michinaga: like a teacher teaching meditation
    Calvino Rabeni: A lot like that
    Calvino Rabeni: Or like teaching internal martial arts, which isn't exactly athletics, but has physical forms
    Paradise Tennant: we could do a group visualization .. on something creative hmm maybe a drawing ..I wonder if there would an impact ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yoga, chi kung, etc. might include this in teaching
    Calvino Rabeni: say more paradise?
    Paradise Tennant: well the same exercise steve did at the first retreat but only virtually
    Paradise Tennant: maybe even with a prim object :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Ada has a drawing board she invented and drought it to a few sessions, but it wasn;t that fluid
    stevenaia Michinaga: *brought
    Calvino Rabeni: hmm, I'm not facile with prims, they are slow to handle
    stevenaia Michinaga: but there was some interesting drawings
    Calvino Rabeni: BUt it might be possible to do it just with *words*
    Calvino Rabeni: because it's easy to put something on the chat line
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: some do better with words than others
    Paradise Tennant: we could try say a poem
    Paradise Tennant: sort of like improv
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Paradise Tennant: one person starts the next continues lol
    Paradise Tennant: but it has to be fast
    Paradise Tennant: to keep the flow going
    stevenaia Michinaga: a vertical poem
    Paradise Tennant: I am going to start because that is the easy one lol
    Calvino Rabeni: order?
    Calvino Rabeni: or at random
    Paradise Tennant: clockwise ...
    Calvino Rabeni: para steve calvino

    Paradise Tennant:                 the sun smiled .. gilding .. gold .. the dawn ..
    stevenaia Michinaga:            flying with the breeze
    Calvino Rabeni:                    and a sheaf of mirth
    Paradise Tennant: lol            tangled .. in a kite string forgotten ...
    stevenaia Michinaga:            blocking the sun as it passes
    Calvino Rabeni:                    before the eye of Sound
    Paradise Tennant:                 to dwell in the silence of my heart
    stevenaia Michinaga:            the sun tugging at the depth within
    Calvino Rabeni:                    oh even then - and always -
    stevenaia Michinaga:            ...... the end

    stevenaia Michinaga: interesting, Cal, that was very much like a 9 second sketch
    stevenaia Michinaga: transforming in an unexpected way
    stevenaia Michinaga: (for me)
    Calvino Rabeni: onigokko
    stevenaia Michinaga: cute
    Calvino Rabeni: stop
    stevenaia Michinaga: somehow I have one worn that you cannot see, but I cannot share it
    Calvino Rabeni: mine was missing, unexpectedly
    stevenaia Michinaga: bed time for me
    Calvino Rabeni: I have no visible tail, do i?
    Calvino Rabeni: If so, Para, you can wear it invisibly
    stevenaia Michinaga: no
    stevenaia Michinaga: night all

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