2010.01.13 19:00 - Images and Words

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

Calvino Rabeni and I began with a discussion that began at the 1:00 AM conversation the previous night that we both attended... the conversation then moved to work and meditation.

stevenaia Michinaga: hello
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Calvino Rabeni: Hi stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: aww, there you are
stevenaia Michinaga: how are you this evening... do you attend all sessions
Calvino Rabeni: Good .. it varies, this time slot is easy
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, but 4:00 am
Calvino Rabeni: I like to catch the eurpoean members though, so I think 1pm works
Calvino Rabeni: 4am where you are?
stevenaia Michinaga: East coast
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: those meeting work perfectly for those non-continuous sleeping nights for me
Calvino Rabeni: is that a lifestyle choice or just happens sometimes?
stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect it is food related, spouse says it is age related, so I may be on at that hour more
Calvino Rabeni: some of my friends have food things that interfere with sleep
stevenaia Michinaga: wasn't caffine or upset stomach, just awakeness
Calvino Rabeni: not uncomfortable
stevenaia Michinaga: no, or discomfort
stevenaia Michinaga: one of those interesteting places we were talking about earlier
Calvino Rabeni: I remember
stevenaia Michinaga: a place to drift between non-dreaming sleep and awakeness
stevenaia Michinaga: no-alert awakeness
stevenaia Michinaga: non-
stevenaia Michinaga: an empty place - time to lay awake
Calvino Rabeni: I find posture important in meditative practices
Calvino Rabeni: If I had the condition you are talking about I might get up from bed and sit with the lights out
stevenaia Michinaga: I do that at my office, but more to take a nap
stevenaia Michinaga: an usually I'm horizontal, I don;t do to much sitting/meditating except here and perhaps when I work
stevenaia Michinaga: productive meditation
Calvino Rabeni: when you work?
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: when I am focused on a thought
stevenaia Michinaga: much of what I do is contemplation on a problem
Calvino Rabeni: Are you saying during work you do contemplative thinking of some kind
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I guess then.
stevenaia Michinaga: the solution emerges with time
stevenaia Michinaga: it's a very close relationship with the issue at hand :)
stevenaia Michinaga: an the issue is ever changing, which keep you focused
Calvino Rabeni: Are you systematic or methodical with awareness aspects ?
stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect methodical, the process is always the same, the problem is what changes each time
stevenaia Michinaga: I view the process as.....you start with the universe and end with a door handle
Calvino Rabeni: The door handle meaning the concrete result
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, an end, you select some last thing
Calvino Rabeni: At first I thought, it was a metaphor for a way of handling an issue (the handle on the issue)
stevenaia Michinaga: a metaphorical door handle, of course
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, something like that, both real and figurative door handle

stevenaia Michinaga: [19:39] Radar: Leaving chat range: Calvino Rabeni
stevenaia Michinaga: wb

Calvino Rabeni: It could be considered an awareness practice, or annoyance, to avoid the Q key
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, yes
stevenaia Michinaga: I've done that, shift and command can be to close when you hit the Q
Calvino Rabeni: Your work is creative and intellectual
stevenaia Michinaga: usually
stevenaia Michinaga: and social
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: It seems i worthwhile, but difficult, to find out how exactly people go about their creative processes.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, like consciousness, easy to watch , difficult to explain
Calvino Rabeni: It's difficult due to the observer paradox
Calvino Rabeni: The explanation part is easier than that, I think
Calvino Rabeni: The observation itself is the harder part
Calvino Rabeni: Due to the need for a split attention that looks both ways
Calvino Rabeni: It is a fairly complex mental condition
stevenaia Michinaga: but you can observe, and describe, but it may have nothing to do with the act you are watching
stevenaia Michinaga: like watching someone meditate
stevenaia Michinaga: what does it mean to someone who does not meditate
Calvino Rabeni: I mean, what happens when a person attempts to become aware of their mental process, while at the same time engaging in that process without disturbing it too much
Calvino Rabeni: I am talking about more ordinary things
Calvino Rabeni: like, ask a musician - what exactly is it you do when you are writing a song
Calvino Rabeni: Or jamming in a band
Calvino Rabeni: Same with a writer perhaps
Calvino Rabeni: About the creative part that is,
Calvino Rabeni: presumably the mechanical part is a little easier to observe\
stevenaia Michinaga: is it even possible to explain, as what it is you are asking is non-verbal
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, I think that problem is overrated
Calvino Rabeni: The problem I think you are referring to
Calvino Rabeni: I think the observation itself is the main block to success
stevenaia Michinaga: we did a little exercise at the first retreat which evolved
stevenaia Michinaga: we passed around paper and everyone began to draw
stevenaia Michinaga: then one smartypants felt is should be a 9 second excersize
stevenaia Michinaga: so every 9 seconds we passed whatever we were working on to the person to the right
stevenaia Michinaga: the drawings are on the wiki somewhere
stevenaia Michinaga: but the point I was trying to make was everyone became quiet during the process
stevenaia Michinaga: and whatever emerged had 9 seconds to materialize on the paper before the image in front of you left and was replaced by another
Calvino Rabeni: how did you like doing that?
stevenaia Michinaga: I initially felt it should have been longer than 9 seconds, but we all adapted
stevenaia Michinaga: it was very creative
stevenaia Michinaga: and put you in a new frame of reference
Calvino Rabeni: To get into that new frame, what was dropped, what came in its place?
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: time was dropped, the space between the images emerged to fill with ned images
stevenaia Michinaga: new
Calvino Rabeni: Did you learn a new, if tacit, skill?
stevenaia Michinaga: no
stevenaia Michinaga: it was a skill I wanted to share with the group
Calvino Rabeni: Your idea, the 9-second timing?
stevenaia Michinaga: thinking non-verbally
Calvino Rabeni: right
stevenaia Michinaga: no another took the 9 second idea to this task, I just presented the task
Calvino Rabeni: so it used cognitive abilities you already had on tap
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Calvino Rabeni: For others, it could have been more a learning experience
stevenaia Michinaga: I gave it no time frame
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it could have been for them
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Paradise
Paradise Tennant: hiya steve cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: :) Paradise
stevenaia Michinaga: although some asked if they could use words
Calvino Rabeni: Did this story occur to you, in order to carry on with the conversation we were having earlier?
Paradise Tennant: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: just related to the work (draw) -meditation discussion we had and how I offered it as a tool at the first retreat
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: YES
Calvino Rabeni: You remember, Para?
stevenaia Michinaga: the first Princeton retreat, Paradise
Paradise Tennant: well we talked about different meditation techniques at princeton
Paradise Tennant: but I was at the second retreat
Paradise Tennant: or the most recent
Paradise Tennant: ?
stevenaia Michinaga: the first one was a year earlier
stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Events/PaB_Fest_2008.10.18_@_IAS_by_Genesis_Zhangsun
Paradise Tennant: ahh kk
stevenaia Michinaga: it;s mentioned in the second last paragraph
Paradise Tennant: kk
Calvino Rabeni: I see this as about, the challenges of observing creative process
Calvino Rabeni: Everyone spends much of their days in creative process of one kind or another
stevenaia Michinaga: from the point of view of the doer
Paradise Tennant: :) or simply stepping out of its way :)
Calvino Rabeni: whether it is regarded as such or not, by virtue of its end products
stevenaia Michinaga: here they are
stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Real_life_meetings/PaB_Fest_17_-_19_October
Calvino Rabeni: the observation process seems to interfere with the creative process, for many people, which is what I think Para is referring to
stevenaia Michinaga: images at the bottom
Calvino Rabeni: And i think that is the more difficult thing about it
Calvino Rabeni: compared to the "description problem" which is more of a paper tiger
Paradise Tennant: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Athletics is one area where coaching often tries to account for the "inner game"
Calvino Rabeni: that is, the internal aspect of what is going on behind the physical performance
--BELL--
Paradise Tennant: meditative visualization .. I think is a powerful tool to harness creativity
Calvino Rabeni: Probably the performance aspect, kind of legitimizes the attempt to even do that kind of thing
stevenaia Michinaga: like a teacher teaching meditation
Calvino Rabeni: A lot like that
Calvino Rabeni: Or like teaching internal martial arts, which isn't exactly athletics, but has physical forms
Paradise Tennant: we could do a group visualization .. on something creative hmm maybe a drawing ..I wonder if there would an impact ?
Calvino Rabeni: Yoga, chi kung, etc. might include this in teaching
Calvino Rabeni: say more paradise?
Paradise Tennant: well the same exercise steve did at the first retreat but only virtually
Paradise Tennant: maybe even with a prim object :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Ada has a drawing board she invented and drought it to a few sessions, but it wasn;t that fluid
stevenaia Michinaga: *brought
Calvino Rabeni: hmm, I'm not facile with prims, they are slow to handle
stevenaia Michinaga: but there was some interesting drawings
Calvino Rabeni: BUt it might be possible to do it just with *words*
Calvino Rabeni: because it's easy to put something on the chat line
Paradise Tennant: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: some do better with words than others
Paradise Tennant: we could try say a poem
Paradise Tennant: sort of like improv
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Paradise Tennant: one person starts the next continues lol
Paradise Tennant: but it has to be fast
Paradise Tennant: to keep the flow going
stevenaia Michinaga: a vertical poem
Paradise Tennant: I am going to start because that is the easy one lol
Calvino Rabeni: order?
Calvino Rabeni: or at random
Paradise Tennant: clockwise ...
Calvino Rabeni: para steve calvino

Paradise Tennant:                 the sun smiled .. gilding .. gold .. the dawn ..
stevenaia Michinaga:            flying with the breeze
Calvino Rabeni:                    and a sheaf of mirth
Paradise Tennant: lol            tangled .. in a kite string forgotten ...
stevenaia Michinaga:            blocking the sun as it passes
Calvino Rabeni:                    before the eye of Sound
Paradise Tennant:                 to dwell in the silence of my heart
stevenaia Michinaga:            the sun tugging at the depth within
Calvino Rabeni:                    oh even then - and always -
stevenaia Michinaga:            ...... the end

stevenaia Michinaga: interesting, Cal, that was very much like a 9 second sketch
stevenaia Michinaga: transforming in an unexpected way
stevenaia Michinaga: (for me)
Calvino Rabeni: onigokko
stevenaia Michinaga: cute
Calvino Rabeni: stop
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: somehow I have one worn that you cannot see, but I cannot share it
Calvino Rabeni: mine was missing, unexpectedly
stevenaia Michinaga: bed time for me
Calvino Rabeni: I have no visible tail, do i?
Calvino Rabeni: If so, Para, you can wear it invisibly
stevenaia Michinaga: no
stevenaia Michinaga: night all