2010.01.21 13:00 - Happy place

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Lia Rikugun: hello
    Bertram Jacobus: hey lia ! ... :-)
    Magic Leimes: Hi Lia
    Bertram Jacobus: hey storm ... :-)
    Magic Leimes: Hi Storm
    Lia Rikugun: hello magic
    Lia Rikugun: hi storm
    Storm Nordwind: Greetings all!
    Lia Rikugun: how are you all?
    Storm Nordwind: happy :) You?
    Lia Rikugun: hehe happy too :)
    Pema Pera: hi Bert, Magic, LIa, Storm!
    Magic Leimes: hey pema
    Bertram Jacobus: hey pema ... :-)
    Lia Rikugun: hello pema !

    Malta retreat and mysterious things ...

    Bertram Jacobus: i´m ... no idea - mostly so much ... ;-)
    Pema Pera: wait till you go to Malta, Bert :-)
    Lia Rikugun: no idea.. :) ok
    Lia Rikugun: I am curiosu to see too
    Bertram Jacobus: and then, pema ? you make me even more curious ! ... :-))
    Pema Pera: I'm curious on many levels, Lia!
    Pema Pera: Malta, small as it is, has an amazing history
    Lia Rikugun: how so?
    Pema Pera: stretching back for many thousands of years
    Lia Rikugun: yes i read about the hypogeum
    Lia Rikugun: which is supposed to be very old
    Pema Pera: it was the center of the "middle sea" of that part of the world
    Lia Rikugun: and mysterious things have happened there!
    Lia Rikugun: oh
    Bertram Jacobus: mysterious things ?
    Lia Rikugun: a whole class dissapeared there
    Lia Rikugun: so we have to stick together
    Pema Pera smiles at the way Lia is preparing for our disappearance . . . .
    Bertram Jacobus: ehm - do we believe that ? with the class ? ... ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: and apperently a researcher saw beings froma different realm
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: or something like that
    Pema Pera: only those who believe, Bert, will disappear, so probably you will be safe!
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. but may be the disappering is nice ? ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: i want to disappear and come back
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: and tell you all abou tit
    Pema Pera: then you'd better believe :-)
    Lia Rikugun: i am very excited
    Bertram Jacobus: lol

    during the retreat in California I started experimenting more with a kind of daydreaming which I call "going to the happy place" :)

    Pema Pera: Lia did tell us about her little daydream travels already in California
    Pema Pera: her disappearing and appearing!
    Pema Pera: if we ask het kindly, she may do so again :)
    Lia Rikugun: me disappearing?
    Lia Rikugun: did I?
    Pema Pera: sure, into your realm of "kleine Reise"
    Pema Pera: and then returning!
    Lia Rikugun: i was always sitting on the sofa no?
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Storm Nordwind: yes you were
    Pema Pera: ah, only when we looked!
    Lia Rikugun: HAHA
    Pema Pera: what do we know . . . .
    Pema Pera: hi Bleu!
    Storm Nordwind: and also on the floor, and on the ceiling...
    Lia Rikugun: yes actually i may have some questions
    Lia Rikugun: hello bleu
    Magic Leimes: Hello bleu
    Pema Pera: may?
    Pema Pera: are you questioning the possibility of having a question, Lia?
    Lia Rikugun: well i have, but may i ask them
    Pema Pera: well, yes :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi bleu ... :-)
    Storm Nordwind throws a cushion at Pema
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Pema Pera: (but don't read the earlier chat logs for today, please)

    going to the happy place and one specific experience I made

    Lia Rikugun: well I told pema already a little bit about it
    Pema Pera: ((or was that in the Pub that we talked about that, Storm?))
    Lia Rikugun: so what I do sometimes is I relax close my eyes and try to go to this happy place
    Pema Pera: (that's the disappearing act of Lia, yes)
    Lia Rikugun: wherethere is a field and a little house
    Lia Rikugun: and I can walk around
    Lia Rikugun: and experience things
    Lia Rikugun: sometimes I meet people
    Lia Rikugun: somnetimes we talk
    Lia Rikugun: so a few weeks ago
    Lia Rikugun: i went to my happy place
    Lia Rikugun: (this is how i call it)
    Lia Rikugun: and i stood on the field
    Lia Rikugun: an something came from behind and bite me
    Lia Rikugun: and didnt stop
    Lia Rikugun: to attack me
    Lia Rikugun: so I kicked it and pushed it far awy
    Lia Rikugun: it was flying into the air
    Lia Rikugun: then i realized maybe i did something wrong
    Lia Rikugun: and i should have reacted more friendly and nicer
    Lia Rikugun: so I flew to rescue it and we flew back together to the field
    Bertram Jacobus: hello eliza ! ... :-)
    Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
    Magic Leimes: Hi Eliza
    Bleu Oleander: hi eliza
    Lia Rikugun: this changed the intention of tis something whoch was biting me before
    Lia Rikugun: we started playing together
    Lia Rikugun: hello eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone! :) (apologies, brb)
    Lia Rikugun: and chasing each other
    Lia Rikugun: jumping around
    Lia Rikugun: this being which looed scary turned into some kind of teddy bear
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: so i wasnnt scared anymore
    Lia Rikugun: at some point i became tired and the teddy bear said, comeI want to show you something
    Lia Rikugun: he carried me away
    Lia Rikugun: into a white fog
    Lia Rikugun: i asked where are you taking me
    Lia Rikugun: dont be scared everybody is here
    Lia Rikugun: (i couldnt see anybody)
    Lia Rikugun: and the complete darkness
    Lia Rikugun: couldnt see anything anymore
    Lia Rikugun: but i knew the teddy bear was stil there
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: sorry i am talking and talking
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s great - ty !

    What does an aggression in such a daydream mean?

    Lia Rikugun: so my questions: what do you think this means?
    Pema Pera: please continue Lia!
    Lia Rikugun: and why is there someone who bites me at first?
    Lia Rikugun: this happened to me several times
    Bleu Oleander: i missed the beginning of this, was this a dream?
    Lia Rikugun: that there is someone or something which is first aggressive or who wants something bad in a way
    Pema Pera: (I already emailed with Lia about this, so I'll keep quiet for now)
    Lia Rikugun: but then turns out to be good if I accept it and embrace him and am friendly
    Lia Rikugun: a kind of daydream
    Lia Rikugun: where I actively go to a place called happy place
    Lia Rikugun: and I walk around
    Lia Rikugun: ad see what haoppens
    Storm Nordwind: I would seem to me to be a lesson. Your happy place is not your field or your house. It is inside you. You can stay happy there, inside, no matter what happens in the outside world. The world of the happy place is still an outside world, like the inner layers of an onion.
    Lia Rikugun: ok
    Lia Rikugun: and what about the white fog or the darkness?
    Lia Rikugun: somethings always lead me there
    Bleu Oleander: various layers of your virtual self, maybe?
    Storm Nordwind: There is the fear that when you let go of the experience of the outside world, even the inner outside world, that you will have nothing left - it will be a void. But it is not so. The mist and darkness shows your fear, but the source of happiness that is within will not let you down
    Lia Rikugun: hm i am not sure if i understand
    Lia Rikugun: i am never really scared
    Lia Rikugun: whatever happens
    Lia Rikugun: in this happy place at least
    Storm Nordwind: In which case it sounds like a fun place to explore. You will be safe within yourself, no matter what happens, as things that you see come and go
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: so pema is always suggesting to continue
    Lia Rikugun: these explorations
    Storm Nordwind: Yes, I support that :)

    experiences inside us..

    Storm Nordwind: But in a way, the more you explore and go to different places...
    Lia Rikugun: hehe good
    Storm Nordwind: the more you will be staying in one place within yourself...
    Storm Nordwind: experiencing these things as they pass by
    Lia Rikugun: hm
    Storm Nordwind: All the experiences we ever have are inside us, not outside us
    Lia Rikugun: yes
    Storm Nordwind: And that inside never goes away, and never moves.
    Storm Nordwind: It is always there
    Storm Nordwind: It can always be relied on
    Storm Nordwind: It is a secure place from which you can view things arise and vanish
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting when you're surprised by 'your own' seemingly inner projections .. seems am enjoyable practice
    Bertram Jacobus: heyy mick ! ... :-)

    the "inside" contains all the "outside"

    Pema Pera: and that "inside" also contains all the "outside" we ever experience, it goes both directions
    Pema Pera: hi Mick!
    Storm Nordwind: Yes indeed Pema
    Lia Rikugun: hello mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Everyone
    Magic Leimes: Hi mick
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :)
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Pema Pera: it is, Eliza; Maxine reported something similar during our first retreat, and so did I; I think many of us may have experimented with something similar
    Bleu Oleander: say more Pema about going both ways
    Eliza Madrigal nods.. yes I relate very much too
    Pema Pera: Storm described the unity of subject/object as starting from the inside
    Pema Pera: but you can also start from the outside
    Pema Pera: and say the same thing
    Pema Pera: that the outside is all you too
    Pema Pera: all mind, ect -- but we have to be careful what notion of "mind" we use then
    Pema Pera: not mind as in body-mind duality
    Pema Pera: but beyond that split

    entering different realms

    Pema Pera: btw, I mentioned to Lia in email a few days ago: foggy white and dark black are colorless; perhaps you are entering realms that go beyond our normal logic and our normal way of thinking, as symbolically they then lack our normal forms and colors (interestingly, in the Chinese/Japanese versions of the heart sutra, "form is emptiness, emptiness is form" the literal characters used can also be read as "color is emptiness, emptiness is color")
    Storm Nordwind: What feels right to you Lia? There are so many possible ways of looking at this, it's important if you find one that resonates and you say "Aha!" to. :)
    Lia Rikugun: i am not sure

    all imagination?

    Lia Rikugun: sometimes i think this is all imagination due to the fact that I read the TSK book
    Lia Rikugun: or other books about zen buddhism
    Lia Rikugun: and then I am wondering if my unconscious gives me these images
    Lia Rikugun: and it has nothing to mean
    Lia Rikugun: but on the other hand
    Lia Rikugun: sometimes there are these feelings of absolute truth
    Lia Rikugun: which i cannot explain
    Lia Rikugun: or complete love
    Mickorod Renard: I have wondered this too,,maybe in a similar way. It reminds me of that saying ' we are what we eat'
    Lia Rikugun: could be imaginated as well
    Lia Rikugun: but the feeling is true
    Lia Rikugun: the experience is true in a way
    Lia Rikugun: what is true and what is false
    Lia Rikugun: so what i know is I experienced it
    Pema Pera: that's the important part, Lia, to trust your experience as valuable!
    Storm Nordwind agrees
    Lia Rikugun: but
    Storm Nordwind: Even your wondering whether or not it's imagination is valuable. You can have confidence in the path!
    Pema Pera: it is no doubt partly imagination and partly more than that . . . but it may not be easy to draw any line, nor is that the most important part
    Lia Rikugun: well you can always say somethings againt or for
    Lia Rikugun: there is no proof or anything
    Bertram Jacobus: the last days, again and again i remember a quite strange phenonemon : playing billard, there is the fact, that sometimes i KNOW in advance that a shot will be successful - and that always is true (!) ...
    Pema Pera: your wading in tidal waters, between this realm and something wider/other, like in between sleeping and waking -- that in itself is important, to widen your experience that way
    Lia Rikugun: for me its good to keep a cool head in a way and an open heart

    premature judgement limits

    Mickorod Renard: Pema, can you ellaborate more on the' nor is that the most imoportant part'?
    Pema Pera: when exploring anything, premature judgment limits innecesarily
    Pema Pera: better to keep an open mind
    Pema Pera: in astronomy sometimes the greatest discoveries are made by observers who are not so strong in theory
    Pema Pera: so they don't ask themselves whether what they see can be true; they just report it, even if it goes against any theory currently considered true :)
    Mickorod Renard: I feel there is a risk of becoming overwhelmed with idea's and thoughts
    Pema Pera: and they are more likely to make new discoveries
    Pema Pera: there is a risk to anything, for sure, but with Lia being happy and not scared and able to transmute aggression into play, I'm not worried :)
    Lia Rikugun: :) yeay
    Mickorod Renard: sometimes I feel there is a need for some concrete foundation to provide some sanity
    Lia Rikugun: so what does this aggression mean?
    Eliza Madrigal: I wonder if practicing this way has changed your night time dream life, Lia?
    Eliza Madrigal: (ah sorry, delayed text)
    Lia Rikugun: actually i started writing down my dreams again a week ago or so
    Lia Rikugun: but i have completre different images
    Lia Rikugun: nothing to do with my happy place
    Lia Rikugun: but when i go to my happy place i can remember my night dreams better :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Storm Nordwind: What Pema said before about tidal waters reminds me of a passage from a Douglas Adams book: "A beach house," he said, "doesn't even have to be on the beach. Though the best ones are. We all like to congregate," he went on, "at boundary conditions. Where land meets water. Where earth meets air. Where body meets mind. Where space meets time. We like to be on one side, and look at the other."
    Pema Pera: you're getting practice in opening doors, yes, Lia
    Pema Pera: nice quote, Storm!

    how to deal with aggression in daydreams and real life?

    Bleu Oleander: what can be said about RL aggression vs happy place aggression and dealing with it?
    Storm Nordwind: I would deal with them the same way. How about you Bleu?
    Bleu Oleander: turning to play?
    Mickorod Renard: most of my dreams tend to relate to sorting out puzzles that perhaps have formed during the intervening day or week..opening up a new line of enquirely, or perhaps practice is likely to change dream patterns, i would think
    Storm Nordwind: No. Being secure in what was real.
    Bleu Oleander: say more
    Pema Pera: and not trying to fight aggression, but respond appropriately, depending on the situation; Lia did so, in "taming" the aggression, after first showing she wasn't phazed by it.
    Storm Nordwind: /It depends what you mean by 'dealing with it' Bleu. I might deal with it internally quite consistently. The demands of the outer world may vary according to circumstance. It's a very wide subject. It depends on for whose benefit you looking too.
    Pema Pera nods
    Bleu Oleander: true
    Mickorod Renard: might I ask the nature of the aggression?,,RL or Dream only?
    Mickorod Renard: I dropped in late
    Bertram Jacobus: hy gaya ! ... :-9
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Gaya
    Lia Rikugun: I talked a bout an expeirence i had during some kind of daydream with aggression
    Mickorod Renard: I see..ty
    Gaya Ethaniel sneaks in ... dropping by :)
    Lia Rikugun: but i think now we try to see differences betwween RL aggression and dream aggression
    Lia Rikugun: hello gaya
    Pema Pera: Lia, just as a suggestion, perhaps you could gently try to go on your little sally (kleine Reise) some time without closing your eyes and without trying to start at your happy place. Even sitting in a crowded place, just looking ahead or around in a relaxed way, you might be able to access a somewhat similar kind of awareness -- we can discuss this later in more detail
    Pema Pera: hi Gaya!!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
    Lia Rikugun: i will try
    Pema Pera: Hi Vertigo!
    Lia Rikugun: but wondering if I can be that relaxed
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Vertigo
    Lia Rikugun: hello vertigo
    Pema Pera: Hail to all Ethaniels!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi vertigo ... :-)
    Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe dreaming can be like a camera you can use in many settings... daytime/nightime , under water/above... a real tool of exploration
    Vertigo Ethaniel: good to see you all
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Vertigo :)
    Storm Nordwind: The Ethaniel family :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Pema Pera nods to Eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel hopes she didn't interrupt the flow ...

    aggression during dreams in the morning

    Mickorod Renard: I suffer with some aggression in day dream state,,I refuse to lay in during the mornings to avoid it,,it may be suggested I have some pts and sleep deprivation for me is not wise
    Mickorod Renard: its a catch situation for me
    Gaya Ethaniel: What is a 'catch situation' Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I need more sleep,,but lucid sleep I avoid cos i dont want the aggressive thoughts
    Storm Nordwind: Not Sleeping makes it worse but sleeping brings the opportunity for the problem - Catch 22
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: hy ara ! ... :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe getting into a relaxed place for a few days in a row will help, Mick....
    Storm Nordwind waves
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Pema Pera: hi Arabella!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello ara :)
    Eliza Madrigal: soften things :)
    Mickorod Renard: like a retreat?
    Pema Pera: :)
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Pema Pera: or a treat!
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Eliza Madrigal grins.. yes like that
    Storm Nordwind: Better than alcoholic oblivion, anyway, the way sought by some
    Vertigo Ethaniel: been there
    Vertigo Ethaniel: many a time
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: thanks, Lia, for a wonderful exchange about your experiences!
    Mickorod Renard: yes, sorry I was late
    Pema Pera: I'll have to leave now, looking forward to seeing you soon again, SL or RL, whichever comes first!
    Lia Rikugun: :) I hope I didnt take too much time to tell you all this
    Pema Pera: not at all!
    Pema Pera: that's why we are here
    Lia Rikugun: bye pema
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, thanks very much Lia :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I will catch up by reading the log, thanks Lia :)
    Pema Pera: to exchange such experiences and take it fro there
    Mickorod Renard: bye Pema
    arabella Ella: bye Pema sorry to have missed much of this
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Pema :)
    Vertigo Ethaniel: catch ya later pema
    Pema Pera: bye for now!
    Bleu Oleander: bye Pema
    Storm Nordwind waves
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    Gaya Ethaniel: I should get back to RL too, a long day. Have a good day everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal waves Bye Pema, Gaya :)
    Mickorod Renard: bye Gaya
    Vertigo Ethaniel waves
    Lia Rikugun: bye
    arabella Ella: bye Gaya
    Bleu Oleander: thanks Lia for starting a good discussion, bye for now
    Lia Rikugun: bye bleu
    Mickorod Renard: bye Blue
    Bleu Oleander: bye all
    arabella Ella: bye bleu
    Bertram Jacobus: ty lia - i appreciate your "report" ...
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Bleu
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: more reports during malta retreat ;)
    Lia Rikugun: from everybody
    arabella Ella: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    arabella Ella: Hiya Yaku!
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Then to share after too, Lia and all :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ya :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello yaku ! ... :-)
    Eliza Madrigal has to get going for a bit, lovely to see you all...
    Lia Rikugun: i think i will leave too, time for bed for me :)
    arabella Ella: bye Eliza Lia
    Storm Nordwind: What no tea Yaku?? ;)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, bye you both
    Lia Rikugun: good night and byebye
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Lia, everyone :)
    Lia Rikugun: thank you for the nice discussion!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: oh, i didn´t deselect the earl grey, strange
    Storm Nordwind: Bye Lia
    Mickorod Renard: bye Lia
    Storm Nordwind: I must go and post the chat log for the previous session. Please excuse me!
    arabella Ella: bye Storm
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    Mickorod Renard: bye Storm
    Mickorod Renard: off to the pub?
    Storm Nordwind: `Yes!
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Vertigo Ethaniel: im kinda afk :) sorry
    Mickorod Renard: shall we go to the pub?
    arabella Ella: i dont think anyone is there
    arabella Ella: no avis appear on my mini map
    Mickorod Renard: will be if we go
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, i´ll leave ... no pub anymore for me this evening - sry ... buit ty ! :-)
    Mickorod Renard: grin,,ok Bert
    Mickorod Renard: I think I shud do some exploring anyway
    Bertram Jacobus: okay - have a nice evening all please ! :-)
    arabella Ella: guten nacht Bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: exploring ? :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: dankeschön ara la bella ! ... ;-)
    arabella Ella: sie sind so nett Bert :)
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,nite nite Bert,,go well
    Bertram Jacobus: thxx :-))
    arabella Ella: (or should I say du bist ...)
    Bertram Jacobus: du bist bitte ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: danke :-)
    arabella Ella: thanks!
    arabella Ella: thanks!
    Bertram Jacobus: :-))
    Magic Leimes: bye everyone,take care,xx
    Mickorod Renard: bye magic
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye magic
    Vertigo Ethaniel: must go :) see ya everyone
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nobody was going to the pub ? :D
    Mickorod Renard: bye vertigo
    arabella Ella: whooosh Magic is gone
    arabella Ella: I am too tired for the pub tonight Yaku
    Mickorod Renard: me too,,sorry
    Yakuzza Lethecus: np, good night you both
    Mickorod Renard: nite nite Yaku
    arabella Ella: nite Yaku I must go now
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