2010.01.24 13:00 - Boundaries and Edges

The Guardian for this session was Maxine Walden.

 Calvino and I had an interesting discussion about boudaries, exploring how in their protective function they are both inclusive and of course exclusive -- perhaps protecting a space for focussed thought while hopefully excluding issues which might become distractions.  The ongoing discussion of course is what constitutes distractions vs spontaneous productions, how, when and where do we decide to erect boundaries, or not.

Calvino Rabeni: Good afternoon, Maxine
Maxine Walden: hi, Calvino, how are you?
Calvino Rabeni: I am quite well by all accounts
Maxine Walden: Was just reviewing some things on my inventory...notecards and all. Like looking in my closet to see what is there!
Calvino Rabeni: Except maybe my bank account :)
Maxine Walden: ah, maybe that could be surprising as well!
Calvino Rabeni: How many items in your Inventory :)
Maxine Walden: you know, not quite sure...maybe 20-30. Not as many as many have I am sure
Calvino Rabeni: It is in the window title when Inventory is open
Maxine Walden: not so sure the number counts for much. Was checking to see that I had a PaB notecard up to date...have not given one out in a while so just checking about that
Calvino Rabeni: Would you be interested in comparing numbers with me? :)
Maxine Walden: Do you have a lot?
Calvino Rabeni: I have no idea, do you? The only way to know is to compare.
Maxine Walden: You know, that feels to me just a bit aside from the reason we are here in these sessions.
Calvino Rabeni: Well it wouldn't be outside, in my opinion, to talk about whether it seems outside :)

--BELL--

Maxine Walden: Maybe the issues of boundaries is the issue...and if so, that is always a topic in my thinking
Calvino Rabeni: Yes :)
Maxine Walden: Guess I think of a boundary as that which guides or protects space for thought, in this instance: and comparing inventories might be sort of exciting, but is it informing for the kind of thinking we try to do here? That is how I find myself thinking at this moment about boundaries as it relates to this situation
Maxine Walden: is that similar to your sense?
Calvino Rabeni: Knowing those with whom one speaks .. could it be of value?
Calvino Rabeni: (rhetorically)
Calvino Rabeni: And knowing what boundaries they choose to hold
Maxine Walden: right...but different ways/avenues for getting to know...and yes, perhaps seeing what boundaries they hold may be informing...just as you probablyknow a bit more about me at this point
Calvino Rabeni: I think that might be true, but I can see how the opposite could be true also :)
Calvino Rabeni: Either way is OK with me
Maxine Walden: OK. I am aware, from experience, that distractions into perhaps exciting areas can lead to getting lost in terms of in this instance, what PaB tries to address
Maxine Walden: at least that is my experience
Calvino Rabeni: I am guessing - what does Maxine think is "what PaB tries to address" and "the kind of thinking we try to do here"?
Calvino Rabeni: And fantasizing I have a broader or looser definition
Maxine Walden: would you care to elaborate?
Calvino Rabeni: Well I'm asking you to elaborate on your earlier statements, to get a reference point
Calvino Rabeni: But I can state my side also :)
Maxine Walden: OK, I see that PaB tries to address the 9 sec practice and what our experience is with that, or other aspects/questions/ of trying to assess our explorations about Being and reality. And for me this requires a kind of protected thinking space, one in which the distractions of other curiosities, such as about personal issues or 'into one's closet' as it were are not included.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that is a more narrowly defined definition than mine, I believe
Maxine Walden: what is your view?
Calvino Rabeni: One must be responsible for understanding how much protection one needs
Calvino Rabeni: I will gather some thoughts on this ...
Maxine Walden: how much protection one needs or what is appropriate, again in one's opinion, for the situation
Calvino Rabeni: I see PaB as a context that has been proposed as a kind of awareness laboratory

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: The 9-second idea is to me not a fixed thing, but the suggestion that one may "be aware" of anything for a short time, and potentially, a longer time. It is a door that can open.
Calvino Rabeni: And the grist for the awareness process can include anything
Calvino Rabeni: One of the interesting things is the awareness is of one's own context
Calvino Rabeni: and the context is one's life, in RL, and one's life, in SL.
Calvino Rabeni: And a part of that is, people's context is very social
Calvino Rabeni: So the issue of self-revelation and boundaries is always there implicitly
Calvino Rabeni: Extroverts tell you maybe, more than one wants to know
Calvino Rabeni: I am not one of those :)
Calvino Rabeni: The awareness opening is a door one can go through
Calvino Rabeni: to knowledge
Calvino Rabeni: The knowledge can be the next step to more knowledge, and remarking upon it in some way is a way to make it a step to going further
Calvino Rabeni: Normally it appears there is not that much experience being revealed in discussion, compared to declarative and speculative statements about abstract ideas.
Calvino Rabeni: My notion of what PaB is about, would be more towards the former
Calvino Rabeni: The fringe benefit of the opening of awareness is lots of learning from other people's intelligence
Maxine Walden: It sounds to me, from how I read what you have just said, that you also value that which enhances knowledge...knowledge through experience, is that what you are suggesting PaB favors?
Calvino Rabeni: This differs from a more narrowly construed view of PaB "as practice for enlightenment skills"
Calvino Rabeni: This kind of summarizes my current understanding of the matter
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, to your last question
Maxine Walden: I actually agree with your suggestion that PaB is about one's experience, not one's thought about 'enlightenment skills'
Maxine Walden: personal experience in these explorations which includes doubts, uncertainties, and the like
Calvino Rabeni: In PaB I like to talk about experiences that are consciousness-expanding in some way
Maxine Walden: yes?
Calvino Rabeni: Often of course, that may include looking at dull things :)_
Calvino Rabeni: Doubts, undertainties, and the like have to be treated carefully
Maxine Walden: oh, carefully?
Calvino Rabeni: They can't be completely avoided
Maxine Walden: agree
Calvino Rabeni: I mean, in the disclosure of conversation
Calvino Rabeni: And in the kind of conversation that goes on inside oneself
Maxine Walden: ah, yes, some things/doubts/ etc feel private
Maxine Walden: agree, the boundary for privacy must always be respected
Calvino Rabeni: It is a permeable boundary, based on evolving consciousness
Maxine Walden: so that there is enought comfort for the discussion which can occur
Maxine Walden: yes, actually agree there as well, re boundary based on evolving consciousness
Calvino Rabeni: Stability and base - security from which to venture forth into the wilderness - that is a similar but different definition of comfort
Maxine Walden: agree
Calvino Rabeni: Although I have heard, in archaic language, it was much closer
Calvino Rabeni: That is I think, an abstraction, but about an experience that is very present, so I think it may be allowable under the "be experiential" standard :)
Maxine Walden: not sure now what we are referring to....
Calvino Rabeni: Comfort as an idea
Maxine Walden: ah...
Calvino Rabeni: The current rather common idea is - comfort is a kind of retreat to easyness
Calvino Rabeni: The more archaic idea has an element of "strength and ease to support undertaking a risk"
Maxine Walden: but security, which probably includes privacy protected, then can allow more exploration in experience
Calvino Rabeni: In that comparison, the archaic idea has more life force, and the modern idea sells one short a bit.
Maxine Walden: agree!
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I agree

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: So, what happens in PaB is a few brief dips into awareness, then long reporting on the knowledge provided by that process. Ideally perhaps.
Maxine Walden: I am reminded of the medieval maps of Europe and all in which the map of the 'known world' is at the middle of the page, and then at the fringe and beyond are illustrated the increasingly fantastic animals and 'monsters'. I have felt this to be a very good map of the imagination: 'beyond the world that I know dwell my doubts and terrors'
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a dream process indeed :)
Maxine Walden: And would agree that we may in PaB try to dip into that world beyond our secure 'known' area
Maxine Walden: and yes, agree with the map of the 'dreamscape' perhaps
Calvino Rabeni: And yet, "boundaries" constrain the disclosure of the "monsters"
Calvino Rabeni: I will add to my description of PaB, that it creates a "liminal" space.
Maxine Walden: yes, indeed. But as we get closer to those 'monsters' by explorations, perhaps they become less monsterous, at least to our questing selves
Maxine Walden: and what does 'liminal' mean in this regard?
Calvino Rabeni: Liminal refers to a state of being near a threshold where one is between worlds and could go either way - where decisions to risk can open new possibilities
Calvino Rabeni: Being in a lucid dream is liminal
Maxine Walden: (I have about 5 minutes, before I have to go to another meeting, just need to mention that 'boundary' for me)
Calvino Rabeni: Being near any experienced edge is liminal
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Maxine Walden: thanks, have heard the word described in several ways;
Calvino Rabeni: I assume you have some facility with active imagination
Maxine Walden: and perhaps the uncertainty involves some of the doubt of what lies beyond that edge
Calvino Rabeni: that is a liminal state in how I was using the word
Calvino Rabeni: Yesterday I saw a master storyteller whose stories were all about this
Maxine Walden: yes, you know there are so many terms used earnestly in many ways; not sure sometimes what terms means what in current discussion
Calvino Rabeni: So it is fresh in my mind, but I think of it pretty regularly anyway
Calvino Rabeni: You might have like it - very jungian
Maxine Walden: ah, sounds interesting!
Calvino Rabeni: yes it was very
Calvino Rabeni: I'd love to chat about it, but we're out of time.
Maxine Walden: Ah, I had better get on my way to my next meeting. I have really enjoyed our talk today, exploring several things of mutual interest
Maxine Walden: yes, maybe another time.
Calvino Rabeni: It opens interesting doors :)
Maxine Walden: yes!!
Maxine Walden: Well, I will go, nice seeing you. look forward to more discussion
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, good talking to you Maxine. I like these 2-3 person chats, they seem more intimate
Maxine Walden: they do, don't they?
Calvino Rabeni: OK, bye for now :)
Maxine Walden: bye for now, Cal.