2010.06.24 01:00 - Happiness and Making Love

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Calvino Rabeni, Cosmicflower Ushinawa, Woolcinder Oxidor, Zino March.

Woolcinder and I chat about communication technology and its benefits and drawbacks:

Zen Arado: Hi Woolcinder :)
Zen Arado: how are you?
Woolcinder Oxidor: i am fine thanks ..been a long time away from this place
Woolcinder Oxidor: how have you been
Zen Arado: yes....I haven't seen you for a while
Woolcinder Oxidor: got a little busy in rl
Zen Arado: I am fine too
Zen Arado: you live in Pakistan I think?
Woolcinder Oxidor: yes thats true
Zen Arado: you have good internet access?
Woolcinder Oxidor: oh you have no idea...
Woolcinder Oxidor: the one good thing we have...is communication...at the price of peanuts
Zen Arado: that's good
Zen Arado: I met a man from Pakistan one time when I was teaching in power stations
Woolcinder Oxidor: i guess its like rome in the time of Hadrian
Zen Arado: hi Cal :)
Woolcinder Oxidor: hello Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hello
Zen Arado: Rome was the centre of the world in those times I guess
Woolcinder Oxidor: hea nnounced the endless games when the republic was nearing its downfall to have the public occupied with it
Woolcinder Oxidor: yes well the notion is similar...:)
Zen Arado: maybe SL is symbolizing the decline of the decadent west :)
Zen Arado: keep us all in front of computer screens while the world goes to hell
Woolcinder Oxidor: well theres also the soccer world cup
Zen Arado: ha ha yes
Woolcinder Oxidor: thats been taking most of my time lately :)
Zen Arado: I watch some of the games
Woolcinder Oxidor: for one dollar you can call US from pakistan for an hour and a half ...you cant beat that
Zen Arado: pretty cheap
Zen Arado: Skype is cheap too
Woolcinder Oxidor: no i was talking about normal landline ...
Zen Arado: yes ....that is cheap
Woolcinder Oxidor: unfortunatley thats the only thing that comes so cheap
Zen Arado: it would cost me about $10 per 1/2 hour to call San Francisco
Zen Arado: I used to call my Zen teacher there
Zen Arado: so now I use Skype
Woolcinder Oxidor: oh intercity in pakistan is free these days...for a subscription of 2 dollars a month :)
Zen Arado: I hardly use my landline any more
Zen Arado: so they have priced temselves out of the market
Woolcinder Oxidor: the celluars also offer free packages at certain times of the day....i am generally not current with the latest offers..but its again pretty cheap
Zen Arado: so how do they do that?
Zen Arado: government subsidized?
Woolcinder Oxidor: yes thats a part of it....although they arent totally tax free
Woolcinder Oxidor: but the taxes are minimal...and i guess they overcome there deficits from the number of users they have and the consumption
Zen Arado: does good communication = more business?
Zen Arado: or more happiness for everyone?
Woolcinder Oxidor: no not at all...thats why i used the Hadrian metaphor
Zen Arado: ah yes
Zen Arado: maybe we all talk too much
Woolcinder Oxidor: you would think that with o much mobile use there should be a lot of mobile manufacturing companies here...and for the manufacturing of the rest of the paraphernalia...but there isnt even one
Zen Arado: sometimes I like solitude
Woolcinder Oxidor: its all driven by useless consumerism with not a lot of economc benefits as one would have hoped for
Zen Arado: yes...and we chatter endlessly saying very little
Zen Arado: and our lives are continuously interrupted by phone calls
Woolcinder Oxidor: yes theres too much white noise in this world :)
Calvino Rabeni: Why do you get phone calls, Zen?
Zen Arado: good question
Zen Arado: I still like getting them I admit
Zen Arado: reassures me someone is thinking about me
Zen Arado: or interested in what I say
Zen Arado: but don't like it sometimes ...when I am meditating for instance
Calvino Rabeni: I know what you mean - Monday my meditations were "doomed"
Zen Arado: Hi Cosmicflower :)
Calvino Rabeni: :) <3 Cosmic !
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hello Zen , Cal and Wool
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3
Calvino Rabeni: Then again, I *could* have turned the ringer off :)
Zen Arado: easy to switch a cell phoe off
Zen Arado: landline is the worst
Zen Arado: Phone*
Woolcinder Oxidor: hello Cosmic
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: _/!\_

Calvino and Cosmicflower arrive and I switched to talking about 'happiness':

Zen Arado: I'm reading an article about happiness
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;D
Zen Arado: what makes us unhappy?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: normal life
Zen Arado: "It's your own uncontrolled mind, your own attachment that oppresses you. If you discover how you oppress yourself, your uncontrolled mind will disappear. Knowing your own mind is the solution to all your problems."
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I guess
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have been happy lately about all those little things in daily life
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: very simple kind
Calvino Rabeni: I'm basically in favor of all problems :)
Calvino Rabeni: By which I mean, opposed to the mind set of trying to solve them
Zen Arado: why Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: Well, it's endless :)
Calvino Rabeni: I mean, there are two kinds, the real ones and the imaginary ones
Zen Arado: we create our problems maybe
Calvino Rabeni: I'm talking about the imaginary ones
Zen Arado: there are ust situations
Calvino Rabeni: like suffering
Zen Arado: yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: this morning sun made me huge happy, I was siting there on backyard
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: smelling it
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and relaxing
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: doing nothing
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: actually
Zen Arado: that's true happiness
Woolcinder Oxidor: sorry i have to leave people
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes it feels like
Woolcinder Oxidor: nice seeing you all
Calvino Rabeni: Like wise, Wool
Zen Arado: ok bye Woolcinder
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Have fun Woolcinder
Zen Arado: nice to see you too
Woolcinder Oxidor: bye Zen Calvin Cosmic
Zen Arado: why do I keep running after external things to make me happy?
Calvino Rabeni: Well, since you asked :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: why not running after those things what makes us happy?
Calvino Rabeni: The mind goes where it thinks it knows how to be happy
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, I think I go after also those kind of things what makes me feel happy and joy
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: perhaps thats the thing of living
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: choose good things
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for joy and happy

What do we really need to make us happy?

Zen Arado: "...you'll get a car, a house, television, a husband or wife-then you'll be happy. Now you have everything, but your car is a problem, your house is a problem, your husband or wife is a problem, your children are a problem. You realize, 'Oh, this is not satisfaction.'
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: big LOL
Calvino Rabeni: My question is, is that relevant to you?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its also needed to respect what one do have already
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then there is found happiness
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not all the time wanting more
Zen Arado: oh...I still haven't got one or two of those items.....
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but give value what there is already
Calvino Rabeni: I don't think that question can be understood by looking at the confusions of others
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: why it "must" be "those" items
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: why can not make a happy living for example in tent
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or on boat
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sailing where ever and home gomes with
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or how does it feels good
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think there should not be "musts"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: once
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I also realiced
Zen Arado: so....I have a wrong conception of happiness?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if there is something coming in my life
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there is a reason why it doesn`t come
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for one own`s sake
Zen Arado: Hi Zino:)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Zino
Zino March: hi
Zino March: thanks
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: is there "wrong"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: way
Zen Arado: I've never seen you here before?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: only many ways to be happy
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: all are right
Zino March: you mean me ?
Calvino Rabeni: I agree
Zen Arado: sorry yes Zino
Zino March: ok i am the founder of buddha center
Zen Arado: I know
Zino March: but never saw me here you mean
Zen Arado: I just wanted to check that you know that the meetings here are recorded Zino
Zino March: i like this place but i have seldom time to come cause of the work at buddha center
Zen Arado: and that you are ok with that?
Zino March: no problem
Zen Arado: ok good :)
Zen Arado: we are just talking about what makes us happy
Zino March: ok great

NIce to have external things but do we NEED them?

Cosmicflower Ushimawa: what makes You Zen happy?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to raise up that bubling feel from chest ;)
Zen Arado: ha - I still run after external things too much I think
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Zen Arado: but it is gradually sinking in that I don't need them
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I am 100 % sure there are some things what makes YOu happy
Zino March: hahahahah like many
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;D
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its makes me a bit sad
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if You don`t need them
Zen Arado: don't need them to make me happy I mean
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, those what you said before, house car etc?
Zen Arado: yes and a nice relationship
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I love this house, and I am gratefull I can live in like this with my children ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I like to ride with car
Zen Arado: that's the one most of think we must have?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so I can go to city
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and I love having my partner
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Zino March: lol
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby people do want different kind of things
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I guess
Zen Arado: but if you didn't have a partner and children would you still be happy Cosmic?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think life is hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for enjoyment
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Ah yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I would travel too much
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or perhaps live here and there
Zen Arado: and couldn't travel?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then i would do something else
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
Zino March: do you like yourself?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so far I have my healt I would use my imagination
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do like My- Self
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: meaning my Self-, different than "men"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: me"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lol
Zen Arado: I think when you know yourself more you like yourself too
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I am hopeless creator
Calvino Rabeni: Yes zen
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: want to create life
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: by thoughts and act
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and more like to choose good and lightfull thoughts
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: than misurable
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Zen Arado: we lose so many things anyway at the end
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or course there are also pain and sadness too
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but those are to get over them
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, well,
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we can not lose our heart
Zino March: at the end we have nothing and nothing means at same time all
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and those experiences comes with our hearts
Zen Arado: this sounds like the story of Job in the bible
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think those memories do come with us
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and feels
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thats why can feel for example love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to someone who I have not met before
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and when seeing this person
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do "recognice" this one
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: because
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there came feel and experience with me from past life time
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think its a little dangerous trap to think "i do not need anything"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its also kind of denying from One-Self
Zen Arado: yes agree Cosmic
Zino March: you think that Zen
Zino March: we want thinks but do we need them?
Zen Arado: asceticism is not it either
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I can say I do need
Zen Arado: too attached to things
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: people
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its not ment to walk alone this path
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for anyone
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
Zino March: mmmm we walk together on differnt roads that has the same destination
Zino March: lol

Do we need to be in a relationship to be happy?

Zen Arado: so we can't be happy if we are not in a relationship?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and about that "need" there are also both way helping also included on relationship
Zino March: yes we can be happy
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm. what is "relationship"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I take relationship can be also with friends
Zino March: it ia attachments that finally makes us unhappy
Zino March: or suffer
Calvino Rabeni: This "we" is not something easy to think clearly about
Zen Arado: yes but most also want intimate relationship
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, I bet here is no-one who do not Love to make Love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: (I guess)
Zino March: hahahahah you do not know lol
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: laughing
Zen Arado: :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so this is LIFE
Calvino Rabeni: And a question of main importance for You, is what You want,
Calvino Rabeni: And for me, ditto
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ditto?
Calvino Rabeni: meaning same for me,
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah,
Zen Arado: but we are so conditioned to think we need certain things
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: life is for living
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think One do need what one thinks to need
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: also can leave behind
Zen Arado: so maybe we have to see through the conditioning

What is 'making love' exactly?

Calvino Rabeni: There are many ways to make Love :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there is no "musts"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yes there are ;)
Zino March: making love or having love is differnt
Zino March: making love is ego related and having love is 2 people having a great time lol
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sorry Zino, I disagree
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: making love is the most pure connection between two souls
Calvino Rabeni: Ah I don't see it that way, I think love is a creative activity
Calvino Rabeni: and things get created, that is "making"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and beautifull too
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do not see ego in it
Calvino Rabeni: agree, Cos :)
Zino March: thats not true for me sometimes a good leugh can be as important as having love
Zino March: luagh
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes,
Calvino Rabeni: that good laugh then is your makng love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but its not any less
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or anything what should be away
Zen Arado: but can we happy without sense pleasures?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and actually I think ego can also be beautifull with good will
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, You will anyway sense pleasure, even from having not
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thats the pleasure then
Zino March: what about for example having a relation with your animals or nature that is more pure then making love cause there are no ego playing
Zen Arado: yes Zino
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I can`t agree with that thought
Calvino Rabeni: nor can i
Calvino Rabeni: what you focus on with love and open heart, is making love
Zen Arado: the 'happiest man in the world' is a buddhist monk I hear
Calvino Rabeni: in that case it is your animals and nature
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think there is nothing more pure than two people making love from their deepest love of their hearts
Zen Arado: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...py-436652.html
Zino March: making love or loving
Zino March: is a big differnce
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: If that would be a happiest man on earth, being a monk, no sex, then those "things" wouldn`t be created on human
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there is nothing undivine in human
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: parts
Calvino Rabeni: If you trust your capacity for making, then there is no difference
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do not see there so huge difference between making love or loving
Zino March: and what is love ? that is differnt for everyone ?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there is difference of making love, or being a sex machine
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thats difference
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but not loving / making love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: eaven making love is also healing
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: balancing
Zino March: can be healing but does not have to
Zino March: depends of the state of mind
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: can, be, yes
Zino March: and the moment
Zen Arado: it is a biological drive that we decorate with our minds
Zino March: yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: oh
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I hope my partner do not think making love is only to make kids
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;(
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ....
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I see it very spiritual thing, more than meditating
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: more than eaven meditating 10 years without having making love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: one loving making love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: can be eaven more spiritual than those
Zino March: meditation can be love and even more stronger then making love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there are many "ways"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: nothing "less"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or "better"
Zen Arado: but if you cannot make love you will be unhappy?
Zino March: yes thats it the middle road to it is always the best i think
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: No
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Zen
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I won`t be unhappy
Zino March: we do not make love it is already there
Zino March: but we need to find it
Zen Arado: but if you cannot perform the physical act....
Zen Arado: it doesn't matter what words you use
Calvino Rabeni: That's a subtle distinction. If we bring attention to it as already there, that is a creative act not different than making
Calvino Rabeni: I have a possibly relevant quote
Calvino Rabeni: Bodily Delight - by R. M. Rilke If only people could perceive the mystery in all life, down to the smallest thing, and open themselves to it instead of taking it for granted. If only they could revere its abundance which is undividedly both material and spiritual. For the mind's creation springs from the physical, is of one nature with it and only a lighter, more enraptured recapturing of bodily delight.
Zen Arado: good quote thanks Cal

Cal's insight: it is splitting and making distinctions that can cause unhappiness:

Calvino Rabeni: All of this splitting of mind/body, spiiritual/material, etc, is a kind of recipe for unhappiness :)
Calvino Rabeni: the either/or instead of the Yes, And
Zen Arado: maybe we elevate the sexual act is what I am getting at
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Agree with Cal
Zen Arado: or our society does in movies etc
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: beter be Yes- Person, than No-Person ;))
Calvino Rabeni: Well are you Zen so influenced by all that?
Zen Arado: oh yes I admit it
Zen Arado: but am learning to see through it
Calvino Rabeni: Well, then you know what you must do
Calvino Rabeni: to see through it to something else
Zen Arado: ah...the theory is so much easier than practice....

Cosmicflower talks about rules and repression:

Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think there are too much rules "how to be spiritual" or "enlightened"
Calvino Rabeni: maybe to embrace and extend it instead of throwing it away
Calvino Rabeni: Agree
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think enlightened people do all the same things than "not enlightened"
Calvino Rabeni: there is nothing else than practice
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there are no "must be" or "must not"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yesss
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: with embrace
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I got one man mad one day few years ago
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when i opened my month
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: he was so "spiritual"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: soo soo spiritual
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: he thought enlightened people do not make love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they do not drink vine
Zen Arado: :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or smoke
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I said YES THEY DO
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: he went totally mad
Calvino Rabeni: the funeral is next week :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: mixed up
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: gave me emails
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: lots
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how I would go to "hell"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: etc
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I was wondering
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well,
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: this person is "truly" spiritual, meaning NOT
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have seen distances but not hell
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its here
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in humans minds
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: "you get enlightened"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: IF
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: you do this or that, or not to do
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: other wice
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: "you are not good"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: "enough"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: this is not the way of Spirit do talk about
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not from LOVE
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so I wote for making love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: very huge
Zen Arado: no- it sounds like repressive Christian view
Calvino Rabeni: I met a native shaman teacher who made a point that, it is important to have some vices, and that if you give one up, it is necessary to choose another before things go off into a fantasy of perfection
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it to be very beautifull and spiritual thing
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: as well
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: having wine sometimes or if someone do smoke
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it might be also keeping Ones feets on ground
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: he was from gnostic group
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: some "teacher"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: oh hoh "
Zino March: The fool who knows that he is a fool is for that very reason a wise man; the fool who thinks that he is wise is called a fool indeed
Zen Arado: so...it is not good to repress ordinary sense pleasures ...but not be too attached to them either?
Calvino Rabeni: And the wise man learns more from the fool, than the fool from the wise man
Calvino Rabeni: No, there is no such thing as ordinary sense pleasures
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Zen Arado: true both times :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: this man teached me
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: all those things what "normal" people do
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: gets people to enlighten
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when he showed the opposite way to me
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and one thing also about making love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how it might lead to enlightement
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: One do forget One-Self while doing that
Zino March: you talk about your experiences but the perspective on making love / love is for everone differnt
Zen Arado: there was a Zen master who reached enlightenment as soon as he began to make love with a woman :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: is it?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: different
Zino March: yes it is
Zino March: for me
Zino March: i have seen and experienced
Zen Arado: perhaps it is the difference in the way we think about it though
Zen Arado: Hi Zal :)
Zino March: love is on it his own making it is different
Calvino Rabeni: Recently I'm enjoying this book of meditations by Rilke, who seems very real and non-pretentious about spirituality
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Year-Rilke-Dai.../dp/006185400X
Zen Arado: yes Roilke was a great poet
Zen Arado: Rilke*
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, maby there are people who do not like it
Zen Arado: sorry I have to go
Zino March: yes hose people are there and maybe more then you think
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or take it to be soul connection
Calvino Rabeni: He seemed to keep to a kind of intergrity, of not trying to persuade himself using ideal concepts
Zen Arado: thanks for interesting discussion
Calvino Rabeni: YW, Zen, as always :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Was nice to see You Zen
Zen Arado: bye
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: have fun
Zino March: bye zen
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm

Zino's distinction between love and making love:

Zino March: making love is just a tool but you can have or make love without it
Zino March: sharing can be in many ways but still making love is just a tool for love
Zino March: i love my mom
Zino March: i love my dogs
Zino March: etc
Zino March: i love my wife and son
Zino March: but the tool for loving them is not making love
Calvino Rabeni: Suppose we stop defining "making love" as a sexual act
Zino March: ahhh thats already better
Zino March: lol
Calvino Rabeni: But, we were already talking about such an enlarged idea of it
Zino March: i know
Calvino Rabeni: It is, as you wish to think about it - up to you to manage your own understanding
Zino March: but we must see that love is already there without making or creating it
Zino March: and the way we see or feel love is by mindfullness
Zino March: and feel that in that moment it is there
Calvino Rabeni: I don't have that feeling of "must"
Zino March: for all beings
Calvino Rabeni: and the making, is the same same as submission to seeing it as always already present
Zino March: soorry wrong word must
Calvino Rabeni: same experience for me
Calvino Rabeni: it is like prayer
Calvino Rabeni: which requires two ends
Calvino Rabeni: if you don't ask, you don't receive
Zino March: do not agree
Zino March: sometimes you can have love without knowing it or asking for it
Zino March: true
Zino March: sorry people need to go back to real life
Zino March: thanks for your love and conversation
Zino March: have a great day
Zino March: is there a group here
Zino March: so i can know when we can talk
Zino March: ok thanks
Zino March: hope to see you at our buddha center to
Zino March: thanks
Zino March: see you all soon