The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado.

Still partying :

Bleu Oleander: hiya druth :)
druth Vlodovic: 'morning bleu
Bleu Oleander: how are you?
druth Vlodovic: nice skating outfit :)
Bleu Oleander: ty!
druth Vlodovic: fair
Bleu Oleander: nice new years?
druth Vlodovic: so far,uneventful
Bleu Oleander: quiet here as well
druth Vlodovic: peopleenjoying their christmas gifts
Bleu Oleander: :D
druth Vlodovic: was santa good to you?

Bleu Oleander: focused on giving in the other direction this year :)
druth Vlodovic: lol,that's one way to say it :)
Bleu Oleander: hey Eliza :)
druth Vlodovic: hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi :) Dancing already?
druth Vlodovic: get an early start :)
Zen Arado: Hi all ;)
Bleu Oleander is done dancing for a while haha!
Zen Arado: good grief
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Bleu Oleander: hiya Zen
druth Vlodovic: hoy zen, big crowd for an unclaimed session
Eliza Madrigal: I'm still in my party clothes though....
druth Vlodovic: anybody here do dancing/moving meditations?
Zen Arado: I can't seem to claim the session
Eliza Madrigal: you know I have done, but not lately.... prob not at all in the last year except trying to add a little sufi dancing :)
druth Vlodovic: I'm not sure shakira is the best choice for it, but I have heard of it done :)
Zen Arado: got it now
druth Vlodovic: what is it like?
Eliza Madrigal: :) Shakira is great for the treadmill
Eliza Madrigal: well in my case it is more an intuitive sort of thing...
Bleu Oleander: time to de-party for me haha!
Eliza Madrigal: so nothing learned
Eliza Madrigal: how do you de-party Bleu?
druth Vlodovic: being intuitive is something I'd like to learn :)
Bleu Oleander: good question!
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: you learn it intuitively
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: "just do it" you people are sooo annoying
Eliza Madrigal: hehhee
Zen Arado: I know
druth Vlodovic: :)
Eliza Madrigal: what happened with me is that I realized there was a gap in my practice
Zen Arado: because we want a set of instructions
Eliza Madrigal: and it was 'body'
Zen Arado: what was it Eliza?
Bleu Oleander: I love New Years day ... feels good to put the decorations away, stop eating junk and get back to, dare I say, "normal" hahaha!
Zen Arado: oh
Eliza Madrigal: I tend to study things and meditate in certain ways but that area was sort of in the shadows so I started looking for ways to bring it out
Eliza Madrigal: agree Bleu actually
Bleu Oleander: :)
Zen Arado: it's more about relaxing into what is there, I think
Eliza Madrigal: some of us need to party more as a resolution though
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: "get the body moving"
Bleu Oleander: plenty of partying ahead ... just need to take a break maybe :)
Zen Arado: But rather than being disheartened by the ambiguity, the uncertainty of life, what if we accepted it and relaxed into it? What if we said, “Yes, this is the way it is; this is what it means to be human,” and decided to sit down and enjoy the ride? Chodron, Pema (2012-10-09). Living Beautifully: with Uncertainty and Change (Kindle Locations 135-136). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.
druth Vlodovic: "all things in moderation" :-/ good advice
Bleu Oleander: yes
Zen Arado: all these practices can take us further away I think
Bleu Oleander: away from?
Zen Arado: keep us searching for something 'out there'
Zon Kwan: heya
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Zon :)
Zen Arado: Hi Zon
druth Vlodovic: lol, trying to convince ourselves that it doesn't matter so much to be wrong
Bleu Oleander: hiya Zon
druth Vlodovic: hi zon
Eliza Madrigal: no escape
Zen Arado: Our discomfort arises from all of our efforts to put ground under our feet, to realize our dream of constant okayness. When we resist change, it’s called suffering. But when we can completely let go and not struggle against it, when we can embrace the groundlessness of our situation and relax into its dynamic quality, that’s called enlightenment, or awakening to our true nature, to our fundamental goodness. Another word for this is freedom—freedom from struggling against the fundamental ambiguity of being human. Chodron, Pema (2012-10-09). Living Beautifully: with Uncertainty and Change (Kindle Locations 162-166). Shambhala Publications. Kindle Edition.
Eliza Madrigal: "whatever we do or don't do we are utterly exposed" Kay Ryan
druth Vlodovic: I grew up in a spiritual and family tradition where even minor mistakes had to be vigorously atoned for
druth Vlodovic: there wereno small mistakes
Bleu Oleander: mistakes are ok
Bleu Oleander: how we learn
Eliza Madrigal: vital
Zen Arado: mistakes assume there is a 'right' way
Zen Arado: and only one right way
Zon Kwan: one can only play if one makes "mistakes"
druth Vlodovic: brb

Formulae for the 'right way' :

Eliza Madrigal: the issue maybe is that any formulas for the "right ways" are general and people's lives are unique
Zen Arado: yes..no right way
Zen Arado: oh Bleu..I am reading a book I think you would like:
Zen Arado: http://www.amazon.com/World-Doesnt-S...+to+make+sense
Eliza Madrigal: we are similar in many ways and can learn from one another, can put ourselves in one another's shoes ie "what would bleu do" but ultimately it is personal
Bleu Oleander: don't know that one
Bleu Oleander: clicking
Zen Arado: it's a rewrite of an old one
Zen Arado: pity I couldn't get it on Kindle :(
Zen Arado: I find dead tree books a nuisance now
Zon Kwan: truth is to be lived by each one
Bleu Oleander: you'll have to let me know how it is
Zen Arado: I can't quote it here for one thing
Zen Arado: it is very deep
Zen Arado: Hagen is very into the philosophy of Nagarjuna
Bleu Oleander: don't know that philosophy
Eliza Madrigal: madaymika
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: madyamika*
Bleu Oleander: or that one :)
Bleu Oleander: haha
Bleu Oleander: always more to investigate
Zen Arado: he examined all the conceptual props we use and takes them all aay ;)
Eliza Madrigal: "middle way"
Bleu Oleander: what are conceptual props?

Zen Arado: the way we think of life
Zen Arado: he iinvestigates the way light is either a wave or a particle
Zen Arado: Schrodinger's cat
Bleu Oleander: does he have anything new to say about that?
Zen Arado: the way we isolate things to think about them
Zen Arado: I don't know
Bleu Oleander: out of necessity I imagine?
Zen Arado: I haven't read much about it
Bleu Oleander: looking forward to hearing what you think about it when you finish it
Zen Arado: might have to read it a few times
Bleu Oleander: yes, I find I need to do that more and more with books
Zen Arado: last thing I read was about 'what is a cup?'
Eliza Madrigal: so many ways to read
Zen Arado: the function of a cup is actually the space inside it
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes experience like music from home, rather than 'learning'
Zen Arado: it's about the way we think about things
Bleu Oleander: but the space inside it's function would change without the outside
druth Vlodovic: the function is to separate the space inside from the space outside, a foil against gravity
druth Vlodovic: sry
Zen Arado: a cup depends on clay
Bleu Oleander: then there's always ... is the cup half empty or half full .... hehe
Zen Arado: from pottery techniques
Zon Kwan: half full of course
Bleu Oleander: of course :)
Zen Arado: like Thich Nhat Hanh's description of a book
druth Vlodovic: depends on how your buzz is progressing
Zen Arado: ever read that?
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Bleu Oleander: no
Eliza Madrigal: middle way really doesn't choose, in a sense - so there is "moderation" or "tolerance" but then there is seeing anew/fresh each time perhaps - liveliness
Eliza Madrigal: uncertainty as way of being, certainly
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: curious cats
druth Vlodovic: I've been learning to both appreciate and dislike the idea of "tolerance" as disrespectful to both sides
Zen Arado: well...a book is made from paper which comes from a tree which needs sunlight and rain to grow and printing technology, publishing houses, writing ,
druth Vlodovic: "appreciation" fits the required bill better i think
Zon Kwan: nods to druth
Eliza Madrigal nods... generally agree with you Druth... thus the distinction - tolerance feels condenscending
Zen Arado: in short it depends on everything else in the universe
Eliza Madrigal: not really approaching someone or a situation freshly
Zon Kwan: understanding is even better
Zen Arado: that sounds more like the middle way of the Buddha Eliza
Bleu Oleander: compassion is in there somewhere too
druth Vlodovic: well, if I tolerate you it means I choose to endure what I find uncomfortable about you in spite of myself, which is disrespectful towards myself
Bleu Oleander: I think how one defines terms matters too
Zen Arado: you don't have to tolerate everyone
Eliza Madrigal: well that is what Nagarjuna taught... emptiness "even to offer food three times a day doesn't match the portion of merit in one instant of love"
druth Vlodovic: I'm all out of synch today :-/ is this about dependant origination zen?
Zen Arado: haven't read Nagarjuna for a long time but I thought he was more about dusmantling our groundless conceptions
druth Vlodovic: maybe it is just my combative nature, but I cringe when people make assumptions like our conceptions being "groundless" :)
Eliza Madrigal: well doesn't that quote do that, sort of pulls the rug out from under notions of ordinary do-gooding, as one example...... so yes I think so....
Bleu Oleander: It occurs to me that we're speaking to each other from different experiences with different philosophies
Zen Arado: yes
druth Vlodovic: it would be boring otherwise
Zen Arado: as usual :)
Zon Kwan: and not possible
Eliza Madrigal: :) I miss talking buddhist stuff... have to find a group, lol
Bleu Oleander: hard to have a conversation when not everyone is familiar with the sources ... at least for me anyway
Zen Arado: true Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: yes, much more fun then
Zen Arado: we need a focus
Zon Kwan: hm
Eliza Madrigal: when we stay open
druth Vlodovic: if it is hard to talk without common ground maybe your thoughts are unclear
Zon Kwan: do we need concepts defined by others
druth Vlodovic: full of the preconceptions of the tradition
Zen Arado: I don't really have any tradition
Zen Arado: I like bits of many traditions
Zen Arado: but I expect to change
 

Quotes or what we think ourselves:

druth Vlodovic: lol, I had a bad moment when I was reading someone worrying about being rude when they insisted that a certain thing could not be known without being experienced, to me it sounded like common sense that such things exist, made me wonder how awful must be not to worry about making such statements
Zen Arado: I don't like anything that makes me think' ah this is it, what I have been looking for' I will stay with this..
Bleu Oleander: finding out what "you" think is more interesting to me than quoting what others think :) even though what we think is developed from knowing what others think and have thought before us
Zen Arado: agree Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: speaks to your earlier statement about being raised in a tradition obsessed with atonement, Druth
Zen Arado: whatt I quote is only half digested
Zen Arado: I should write more about what i read
Zen Arado: ask questions abut it and try to answer them
Eliza Madrigal: well to some extent each time we share a book we are reading it is our experience that we're offering
Bleu Oleander: it's interesting to me how we distill things down and make them our own
druth Vlodovic: send it to your second stomach for more processing
Zen Arado: :)
Bleu Oleander: forums like this are good for sorting thoughts out
Zen Arado: but we do tend to have a position of sorts
Zen Arado: yes
Zon Kwan: traditions are only stepping stones
druth Vlodovic: if you ever think you have no position that is your position
Zen Arado: even if we can't fully articulate it
Bleu Oleander: hopefully our positions are not set in stone
druth Vlodovic: lol, as is the position that you ought not to have one
Bleu Oleander: staying flexible is hard
Eliza Madrigal: thus why we need pauses... palate cleansers
Zen Arado: I was thinking I must have beliefs then
Eliza Madrigal: cache clearings
Zen Arado: even a belief in not having beliefs
Bleu Oleander: nice to clear the cache :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: gangnam
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: ack, druth... you activated me
Eliza Madrigal: lol
druth Vlodovic: but not me :.(
Bleu Oleander: the best experience for me is to have a belief I have completely overturned :)
druth Vlodovic: nice to have an effect :)
Zon Kwan: we all have believes..it is just good to be able to keep them loosely
Eliza Madrigal smiles at Bleu... and really fun is to be able to embrace it in a new way again
Zen Arado: that would disconcert many Bleu
druth Vlodovic: gangnam
druth Vlodovic: yayy!
Bleu Oleander: :) Eliza
druth Vlodovic: btw, how do you stop?
Bleu Oleander: stop
Eliza Madrigal: stop
Bleu Oleander: haha!
Bleu Oleander: have a low tolerance for that music haha!
druth Vlodovic: I get upset when i produce a prized belief and all anyone does is agree with me
druth Vlodovic: makes me think i haven't gone anywhere in the discussion
Zen Arado: it won;t happen here Druth :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
druth Vlodovic: lol
Zon Kwan: i believe onlyin my believes
druth Vlodovic: peace in strife, metallica lives!
Zen Arado: getting a pardon from restarts
Zon Kwan: but i can toterate yours druth
Zon Kwan: lol
Eliza Madrigal: we can see this with relationships too... someone we've 'written off' in a sense, may in another sort of lifetime, be someone we find a new way of being with
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: has happened many times to me
Zen Arado: doesn't like being 'written off' :(
Eliza Madrigal: me too... amazingly so
Eliza Madrigal: when it happens it forever throws into question writing people off at all
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: a reconditioned relationship?
Bleu Oleander: yes Eliza
druth Vlodovic: "you must be for me or against me, if you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth"
Eliza Madrigal: ah, that's tolerance to me Druth
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: that's in Revelations isn't it?
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: always thought it was a bit dubious
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: black or white
Zen Arado: dualism
Eliza Madrigal: my favorite part is simply "whether in the body or out of the body I do not know"
Eliza Madrigal: he was describing a vision and lots of symbolism
Zen Arado: it's funny how vague and mysterious some parts of the bible are yet some can be so dogmatic about the interpretation
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes not so funny :)
druth Vlodovic: "I'm not sure what this means but if you don't subscribe to it I'll kill you" lovely
Zen Arado: and try to live by rules made for a culture more thatn 2000 years ago

Bleu Oleander: well it was written by humans when they thought the sun went around the earth :)
Zon Kwan: bible is a combination by different writers
druth Vlodovic: I think that belief came well after the time the bible was written
druth Vlodovic: er, compiled
Zon Kwan: the word belief can mean different things
Bleu Oleander: context is very important
Eliza Madrigal: interesting yes
Zen Arado: I read this book when I was christian
Zen Arado: http://www.amazon.com/How-Read-Bible...+all+its+worth
Eliza Madrigal: I've heard that the original meaning of belief was something closer to 'love' than what we've made it... like faith was closer to devotion, and devotion closer to empathy
Zen Arado: and it started me on the way out of christianity I think
Eliza Madrigal: if you think about it, most spiritual practices teach one how to step into the shoes of a loving being
druth Vlodovic: you have to love linguistic drift, my fav example is the term "awful" :)
druth Vlodovic: it used to mean "wow"now it means "go away!"
Zen Arado: Hagen keeps emphasizing SEEING what is actually there, not what we THINK is there
Bleu Oleander: it's interesting how we tend to put so much importance on past writers ... we have some wonderful writers today that contribute to the ongoing conversation
Eliza Madrigal: :) Druth, true
Zon Kwan: love=spirituality
Eliza Madrigal: well and friends near and dear, too
Eliza Madrigal: that's part of what we experience here I think, too... putting ourselves in one another's views and shoes
druth Vlodovic: I'm a great believer in evolution of society, both it's good and harmful aspects
Eliza Madrigal: if we're sincere I guess
druth Vlodovic: ask "who benefits" and look for wisdom hidden in corners where nobody does
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: listens

Christmas Institution:

druth Vlodovic: I was thinking recently about the difference between christmas and new years
druth Vlodovic: I don't know how they developed
druth Vlodovic: but you can look at xmas as closing the year and new years as opening one
Bleu Oleander: history of christmas is fascinating
druth Vlodovic: an end and a beginning
druth Vlodovic: you close in comfort with family
druth Vlodovic: and open in public with many strangers
Zen Arado: it always amazes me that everyone adopts these traditions so easily, or most anyway
Zen Arado: especially as Christianity has diminished
Eliza Madrigal: I sometimes find gift rituals embarrassing
Zen Arado: though it is growing in 3rd world countries
druth Vlodovic: xmas wasn't christian to begin with, and increasingly isn't now, I call it a cultural tradition
Bleu Oleander: http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Christm.../dp/0679740384
Zen Arado: it was simply a mid winter feats wasn't it?
Eliza Madrigal: my grandfather reminded me that a large portion of the world economy depends on Christmas... not just the US
druth Vlodovic: a good gift is one that says "I know this about you,and was thinking of you"
Zen Arado: feast
druth Vlodovic: if you choose something that the person likes it says a lot about your perception of them
Eliza Madrigal: true.. yet when it is 'on demand' that takes away from some of the magic
Bleu Oleander: Macys and Coca-Cola created much of US Christmas holiday :)
Zen Arado: so Christmas is a 19th century creation?
Bleu Oleander: older forms than that
Eliza Madrigal: :) Christmas and Macys, nods.... even a film about it
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: fascinating story really
Zen Arado: Dickens helped :)
Bleu Oleander: yes
Zen Arado: Scrooge
Eliza Madrigal: indeed ::gets excited knowing all the Dickensy things coming out soon::::
Zen Arado: bah humbug
Bleu Oleander: truly a collaborative effort :)
druth Vlodovic: I don't want to detract from the discussion, my original point was less about xmas than about how to end things and start them
Bleu Oleander: sorry digressed :)
Zen Arado: end what things?
druth Vlodovic: to start people need to be bold,to stand out in the cold,and it helps to have a lot of support from the community around you

99 days:

druth Vlodovic: actually the 99 days thing is an example
Zen Arado: nice rhyme
Bleu Oleander: say more?
druth Vlodovic: exposing yourself to the world,and doing it in the comfort of a community
Zen Arado: 99 dyas?
druth Vlodovic: they are restarting the 99 days thing on the 15th
Zen Arado: did many read it?
Zen Arado: I wonder
Bleu Oleander: fortunate if you're able to do that ... exposing yourself in comfort of a community
Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes I hear what you're drawing attention to Druth, vulnerability and openness
druth Vlodovic: armouring yourself with a community is a luxury these days
Zen Arado: depends what you write I guess
Zen Arado: you don't have to put personal stuff there?
Eliza Madrigal: well community exists not just to comfort but to discomfort :)
Zen Arado: I just wrote what I was thinking
Eliza Madrigal: iron sharpening iron... to keep with biblical themes
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: mostly about what I was reading
Zen Arado: good to put something in writing
druth Vlodovic: it has the dual purpose of keeping you in line and providing a safe place in which to thrive

Eliza Madrigal: Dickens actually wrote about how systems designed to help were actually corrupting if running course unchecked... so in some sense he is the bright side of the core value of a politics I now disagree with due to what it turned into - ie "less govt" philosophy [last digression but speaks to need to keep in the moment]
Zen Arado: it wasn't really a discussion place
Zen Arado: yes Eliza
Zen Arado: ever read  'Hard Times'?
Eliza Madrigal: I haven't actually
Zen Arado: great book
druth Vlodovic: I think letting things run unchecked is less corrupting than letting it be directed
Zen Arado: a bit like OF
druth Vlodovic: since those who want to direct it often have a set purpose of accumulating power or prestige
Zen Arado: we don't discuss so much as each give a view
Eliza Madrigal: but unchecked becomes directed too.. by default
Bleu Oleander: perhaps more nuanced than either/or
Eliza Madrigal nods
druth Vlodovic: really the only check you want on something is to keep the opportunists from gaining control
Bleu Oleander: as most things are :)
Zen Arado: direct what Druth?
druth Vlodovic: directed by "the community"
druth Vlodovic: it changes,and wanders from "the path"
Zen Arado: the 99 days?
druth Vlodovic: if it wanders too far it gains another purpose or dies
Zon Kwan: what is this 99 days ?
druth Vlodovic: anything
Zen Arado: the main problem with 99 days is keeping going doing it each day
Bleu Oleander: isn't the 99 days something to help establish a good habit?
Zen Arado: takes discipline
Eliza Madrigal: yes Bleu
druth Vlodovic: https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Classes_and_Sessions/The_99_Days_project
druth Vlodovic: I was actually thinking of pab as a whole
Eliza Madrigal: we're about to start another round... Wol and others have been talking about it
Zen Arado: I write for hal an hour each morning as soon as I get up
Zen Arado: anyway
Bleu Oleander: i've read that if you do something for a week there's a good chance it will stick :)
Eliza Madrigal: just to catch Zon up.... it is a bit of a discussion board format where some check in daily
druth Vlodovic: SL works on accelerated time so it is easier to see progression over relativelyshort periods of time
Eliza Madrigal: and set personal goals or practices
Eliza Madrigal: and benefit from positive peer pressure
Eliza Madrigal: it supposedly takes 99 days to form a habit
Zen Arado: I was never clear what is was for
Bleu Oleander: really?
Eliza Madrigal: "anyone can do something for 100 days"
Zen Arado: or what I shoud do there
Zon Kwan: nods,ty
Eliza Madrigal: according to a TED talk, if I recall
druth Vlodovic: it is just to see if you can "practice"
Bleu Oleander: suppose it's diff for diff peeps
Eliza Madrigal: which we adapted for 9s.... PaB being so fond of them ^^
Zen Arado: I just did my own thing I guess
druth Vlodovic: a weakness of mine,I prefer to talk :-/
Eliza Madrigal: yes as with all things it becomes something 'else' sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: :D
Zon Kwan: that is creativity
Zen Arado: sometimes I feel like writing in poem style
Eliza Madrigal nods Zon... I often find myself tuning into people and responding to them in the threads
Zen Arado: not great poems but just feels better
Bleu Oleander: i've been doing more of that Zen
Eliza Madrigal: that would be a good idea Zen
Eliza Madrigal: Eden wrote a haiku a day during one of the 99 days
Zen Arado: mostlu about writing in lines
Zen Arado: maybe we shoud do a poetry 99 days?
Zen Arado: just a verse
Bleu Oleander: have to get to work
Bleu Oleander: thanks for a fun conversation
Zen Arado: kk byee Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: I like that it isn't endless, that it stops at some point and is revisited or opted out of next round
druth Vlodovic: have fun bleu
Zon Kwan: bye bleu
Zen Arado: ty for coming
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu :) Thanks
Bleu Oleander: take care all :)
Zen Arado: a liine or two about a koan is nice
Zen Arado: a capping verse maybe
Eliza Madrigal: O too, wrote poetry during 99 days... and occasionally me
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure if I will participate this time, but I will read
druth Vlodovic: onigokko
Zon Kwan: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :))
druth Vlodovic: stop
Zen Arado: not sure if I have the time either
druth Vlodovic: speaking of traditions...
Zon Kwan: needed exercise from all this sitting
Eliza Madrigal smiles silliness is bonding
druth Vlodovic: lol,I should quote Pema's thing on "not enough time"
Eliza Madrigal: which?
druth Vlodovic: I use that "reason" waay too much myself
Zon Kwan: there is always time
Zen Arado: TV and radio is full of programs about dieat exercise and slimming atm
druth Vlodovic: one of the reasons he started the 9 second thing is that it effectivelytakes no time
druth Vlodovic: so you either "do, or do not"
Zon Kwan: one only must decide how to use it
Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes... we 'think' there is no time
druth Vlodovic: so you sit on the couch for a half hour and see how much you ought to be exercising
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zen Arado: hard for me to exercise
Zon Kwan: there is always time for that we find important, like watching TV
druth Vlodovic: or playing SL :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I like to link two things to help each other... like, walking and meditation, or cleaning the kitchen and contemplating, or SL and the same --- vehicle-ing each other
Zen Arado: but I start adding so many things I must do every day it gets exhausting

Pab loyalty:

druth Vlodovic: a while back someone said that they thought pab must be a cult, because the pabbers were so dedicated, they would drop whatever they were doing to get to the sessions
druth Vlodovic: we all need renewal on a regular basis
Eliza Madrigal: there is some uncanny thing, Druth... have heard others say that too
Zen Arado: I have been learning French for quite a while
Eliza Madrigal: I can see why
Zen Arado: Miralee could never understand it
druth Vlodovic: ah, a nice bit of accomplishment
Zen Arado: PP never got that loyalty
druth Vlodovic: lol,she equated freedom with a lack of scheduling
Eliza Madrigal: the non-coercion emphasis has a lot to do with it I think
druth Vlodovic: I wonder if she holds the same views now, she has been "on tour" for a long time now
Eliza Madrigal: well there were some nice things about PP that were complimentary to PaB for a while
Zen Arado: maybe it is a core of people who get on with each other quite well
druth Vlodovic: PP has a surprising amount of loyalty, considering what it is
Eliza Madrigal: I love the idea of one thing flowing into another in terms of design space
Eliza Madrigal: certainly part of it Zen
druth Vlodovic: but each thing is itself
druth Vlodovic: comparing causes a lot of harm
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: there is something too... to a stance of being willing to let something go
Eliza Madrigal: that lets it be alive
Zen Arado: yes

Zen retreats:

Zen Arado: I let a meditation class go in RL this year
Zen Arado: and no more retreats
Eliza Madrigal: at all Zen?
Zen Arado: no they are too much physically for me now
Zen Arado: in RL I mean
Eliza Madrigal: streamlining?
Zen Arado: can do 1 day ones only
Eliza Madrigal: ah, that is still something... more than I've in my life right now
Zen Arado: a Zen retreat you have to do fully
Zen Arado: not cutting corners
Zen Arado: I think
druth Vlodovic: what do you mean?
Zen Arado: I mean if I missed some of the meditation periods
Zen Arado: though I never could participate in the yoga period
Eliza Madrigal: yoga at heart is a philosophy, though?
Zen Arado: it was more about physical exercise
Zen Arado: loosening up
Eliza Madrigal: philosophy isn't the right word but close
Zen Arado: made sitting all day easier
Zon Kwan: there are many forms of yoga
druth Vlodovic: aren't there retreats for people with lessened physical abilities?
Zen Arado: yes but it was physical yoga exercises at the Zen retreats I went to
Eliza Madrigal: I kept chakras n such at arms length until this last year when it opened in a way that made sense naturally
Zen Arado: doubt it Druth
druth Vlodovic: you could make a lot of money filling a need if there aren't :)
Eliza Madrigal: body scan is a sort of yoga Zen
Zen Arado: in fact most retrerats are inacessible to the disabled
Zen Arado: yes or vipassana
druth Vlodovic: I smell money
Eliza Madrigal: we are not too accessible here actually
Zen Arado: my local Zen center...I applied to join it in 2005 and it is still disabled inaccessible
druth Vlodovic: odd, here that would cause a huge fuss
Eliza Madrigal: no accomodation efforts Zen?
Zen Arado: and the retreat centre was barely accessible to me
druth Vlodovic: I was a kid when all the churches put in ramps and elevators
Zen Arado: couldn't even have a shower
Zen Arado: yes..churches are better
Zen Arado: Zen is Japanese
Zen Arado: they can be hard
Zen Arado: a sort of machoism in it
druth Vlodovic: I have heard that the japanese still consider physical disability to be shamefu;
Zen Arado: 'aching legs Zen' somebody called it
druth Vlodovic: sort of how we are noticing we regard mental disability here
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: I still have issues with legs falling asleep so I'm said to be a bad practitioner
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: the worst horse... maybe, lol
Zen Arado: you have to be able to suffer in Zen
Zon Kwan: hm'
druth Vlodovic: I remember my brother in law trying to buy pants, they said his legs were too short,he siad their pants were too long
Eliza Madrigal: well it is about suffering in perspective?
Zon Kwan: did buddha think so
Eliza Madrigal: :) Druth
druth Vlodovic: suffering for the sake of suffering is nonsense
druth Vlodovic: I really hate that idea

Zen Arado: like if your nose is itchy you don't scratch it
Zon Kwan: agrees with druth again..amazing
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: you examine the feeling :)
Eliza Madrigal remembers Zon's brilliant line "guilt is a sin"
Zon Kwan: did i say so ?
Eliza Madrigal: mhm, lol
druth Vlodovic: shh, we are on emotional territory here, good time for a drop :)
Zen Arado: yeh
Zon Kwan: lol
Zen Arado: I better go anyway
druth Vlodovic: aww
Zen Arado: not doing another 5 hour session :)
Eliza Madrigal: biggest problem with the pause is that some of us wake up to needing to leave
Zon Kwan: me too, nice talk, waves
Eliza Madrigal waves :)
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: byee
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Zen, Zon

druth Vlodovic: ah I should go
Eliza Madrigal: see.... darn pause :)
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: have a lovely day Druth
druth Vlodovic: reexamining what you are currently upto and where you are does that
druth Vlodovic: all the "ouhgts"come out
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for insteresting conversation, bfn
druth Vlodovic: have fun :)