The Guardian for this meeting was Agatha Macbeth. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth.

Wol Euler: hello zon
Wol Euler: hello mick, ara
Mickorod Renard: hi
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Mickorod Renard: just rezin
Wol Euler: good evening, aggers
Agatha Macbeth: Hello everybody
Mickorod Renard: evnin
Zon Kwan: heya
arabella Ella: Good evening Agatha!
Agatha Macbeth: Zon you appear to be somewhat cloudy
Zon Kwan: its just my thoughts
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Wol Euler: ha
Zon Kwan: any better ?
arabella Ella: i can see Zon very clearly!
Zon Kwan: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Aha
Wol Euler: hello san
Agatha Macbeth: Good to see you
Zon Kwan: so perhaps its your eyes, Agatha
Santoshima Resident: hello
Zon Kwan: hi san
Wol Euler sees everything clearly now.
Agatha Macbeth: Or SL more like
arabella Ella: it is funny that we dont all see the same stuff
Agatha Macbeth: How about we all go to Inworldz instead?

(I was kidding!)

Zon Kwan: does anyone have any clear thought to share ?
Mickorod Renard: well,,no
Mickorod Renard: :)
Mickorod Renard: only that I agree with Ara
Zon Kwan: so i am clear, good
Mickorod Renard: I wonder about it in rl too
Agatha Macbeth: What?
Mickorod Renard: whether we see diferent things
arabella Ella: perhaps we could discuss 'seeing clearly' once that topic already arose?
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Mickorod Renard: we presume we all see the same
Zon Kwan: hm
  --BELL--(1315)
Mickorod Renard: to a degree
arabella Ella: reflection: what is it to 'see clearly'?
Zon Kwan: we see same form different viewpoints
arabella Ella: do we Zon?
arabella Ella: i dont think so
Santoshima Resident: { listening to catch a clearer sense of what's being talked about }
Zon Kwan: i think so
Mickorod Renard: I think we live in our own universes more than we think
Zon Kwan: like seeing an elephant from different angles
arabella Ella: i think we see through spectacles which are formed by various things like education, media, etc.
Zon Kwan: thats the viewpoint
arabella Ella: so if i like charlie and you hate charlie do we see the same charlie?
arabella Ella: (just for the argument)
Zon Kwan: we see charlie same charlie
Zon Kwan: but different way
arabella Ella: Zon i think the difference i am trying to say is that we as human beings never simply 'see' anything but we always 'interpret' and often 'judge' what we see (or perceive)
arabella Ella: nothing is neutral
arabella Ella: or objective
Zon Kwan: i am saying same but different way
arabella Ella: maybe
Zon Kwan: but we can share also subjectivity
arabella Ella: maybe the others can help me here too
Santoshima Resident: same in what way, zon?
Mickorod Renard: if we were verbal about everything I think we would be suprised at how many times others would disagree with what we verbalise about
Wol Euler: I suspect that Zon's "differnet way of seeing" is the same thing as your "interpretation"
Zon Kwan: nods
arabella Ella: when we do the PaB exercises 'being seeing' or 'seeing being' do we all see the same stuff or each one individually perceives something different?
Zon Kwan: but there is something that we both interprete
Wol Euler: of course, charlie does exist
Mickorod Renard: just for clarification..is charlie the elephant?
Zon Kwan: so we see same "thing" charlie
Zon Kwan: the elephant
Santoshima Resident: in the room
Wol Euler: the elephant's new clothes
Zon Kwan: no, to me he is naked
Wol Euler: indeed :)
Wol Euler: so was the emperor
Zon Kwan: so is there objectivity at all ?
Zon Kwan: or just opinions
arabella Ella: or different types of spectacles?
Zon Kwan: can we take them off
arabella Ella: i dont think we see charlie and we say with no feeling or emotion - here is charlie - but we see charlie and 'impose' whatever feelings emotions or judgements we have
Zon Kwan: can we ever see charlie as he is ?
Zon Kwan: naked, elephant
Zon Kwan: not good, not bad
arabella Ella: i dont know :)
Zon Kwan: just an alephant
Zon Kwan: if we only see him through our glasses, we cant see clearly
  --BELL--1330
arabella Ella: personally i think seeing is simply 'seeing as ...'
arabella Ella: but i am curious as to what people here consider to be 'seeing clearly'
arabella Ella: what is 'seeing clearly' if for example you refer to charlie the elephant?
Zon Kwan: seeing him like science sees ?
Wol Euler: the same as when you talk about anything else, I suppose: that we atttempt to overcome our preconceptions and prejudices
Zon Kwan: seeing his role in the environment
Wol Euler: to me that would already be interpretation, zon; I'm not sure how I could "see his role" without thinking beyond what I actually see
Zon Kwan: we can compare notes
Wol Euler: but perhaps I am overlooking something :)
Wol Euler: take your example, how do you "see" his role in the environment?
Zon Kwan: we can observe and share our observations
Zon Kwan: we can study him
Zon Kwan: and come to shares understanding
arabella Ella: we can observe him in a scientific way but even then are we seeing clearly?
Zon Kwan: we go deeper
Zon Kwan: in clarity
Zon Kwan: waves to all
Wol Euler: bye zon, take care
Agatha Macbeth waves
arabella Ella: bye Zon
  --BELL--1345
Agatha Macbeth: How are you feeling today Mick?
Mickorod Renard: crap
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe you need more bike rides :p
Wol Euler: aww, sorry to hear it, mick. What's up?
Agatha Macbeth: Not still depressed about being 57?
Mickorod Renard: I have a cold
Mickorod Renard: nothing serious
Wol Euler: ah, okay :)
Wol Euler: gute besserung
Agatha Macbeth: Man flu eh
Mickorod Renard: thankyou for asking though
Agatha Macbeth hands you a lemsip
Agatha Macbeth: Well we worry about you
Agatha Macbeth: Never mind, January is almost gone
Mickorod Renard: yipee
Agatha Macbeth: Think that's how we all feel
Agatha Macbeth: Who the hell is Charlie the elephant anyway?
arabella Ella: may be related to Alice?
arabella Ella: cousin?
Agatha Macbeth: Alice the elephant?
Wol Euler: I thought her name was Nellie?
arabella Ella: i never saw Alice as an elephant
Agatha Macbeth: Or was that her sister?
arabella Ella: Alice as in 'living next door to Alice'
Agatha Macbeth: Don't know many elephants by name
Agatha Macbeth: Babar
Agatha Macbeth: Bump
Agatha Macbeth: Think that's it
Wol Euler: Babar, yes
Agatha Macbeth: Oh Elmer of course
Agatha Macbeth: And Dumbo
Wol Euler: you know Elmer? I thought he was an American invention
Wol Euler: Elmer the safety elephant
Agatha Macbeth: The patchwork one?
Agatha Macbeth: I know him well
  --BELL--1400
Agatha Macbeth: Was there one in the Jungle book?
Agatha Macbeth: Ah well, time to say goodnight to the elephants
Wol Euler: doesn't sound like a JB name to me
Wol Euler: goodnight, aggers, sleep well
Wol Euler: I should go too
Agatha Macbeth: I remember the colonel was one in the film
Wol Euler: goodnight ara, goodnight mick
Agatha Macbeth: Bye A & M, have fun
Wol Euler: take care
arabella Ella: bye Aggers!
arabella Ella: bye Wollie