2014.02.02 13:00 - Lies, self deception and bird watching

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Bruce Mowbray: the boys are on the xbox....
Bruce Mowbray: WHY do I have NO IDEA what that means!?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) playing with I should perhaps say :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's a game thing that hooks to the tv :)
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: I am SOOOO old fashioned!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: x box is a gaming device
Bruce Mowbray: kk, I get it!
Aphrodite Macbain: what is it about Hoffman's death that has so messed up your head Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.today.com/entertainment/p...ead-2D12043170

Aphrodite Macbain: have a cookie
Catrinamonblue Resident: clicks
Aphrodite Macbain: It's so sad
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh dear
Aphrodite Macbain: to die alone like that
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Yes,..... Instead of watching the Superbowl tonight, I will be watching CAPOTE.
Aphrodite Macbain: was he escaping from life with heroin?
Bruce Mowbray: Who knows?
Aphrodite Macbain: we never know what others go through
Bruce Mowbray: Was JFK escaping his presidency by going to Dallas?
Aphrodite Macbain: we are all black boxes to the other
Bruce Mowbray: Black boxes, indeed.
Catrinamonblue Resident: addiction is hard to know about unless you have been there
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't think JFK thought he was going to get killed!
Bruce Mowbray: I am have been there, so I really do not comprehend it.
Bruce Mowbray: I HAVE NOT BEEN THERE!
Bruce Mowbray: What the heck is going on with my CHAT!?
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods, neither have I but have listened to a dear friend
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like you are really upset Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: (((Bruce)))
Bruce Mowbray: JFK was warned - several times - but he did not take the heed.
Catrinamonblue Resident: and my brother in law works with recovering addicts
Bruce Mowbray: I AM VERY UPSET, indeed.
Bruce Mowbray: but will try to calm down
Aphrodite Macbain: what is it that bothers you most?
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. What bothers me? hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps the ephemeral quality of it all.
Aphrodite Macbain: this happens almost monthly these days!
Bruce Mowbray: One rises to the absolute TOP of his professions...
Bruce Mowbray: best actor...
Bruce Mowbray: and then,
Bruce Mowbray: it is all downhill from there...
Bruce Mowbray: same with JFK.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe that's it.
Bruce Mowbray: I don't know, really.
Aphrodite Macbain: all that wasn't enough for them
Catrinamonblue Resident: society puts a lot of pressure on people, even the ordinary man is pressured to be extraordinary
Bruce Mowbray: Nothing is "enough," apparently.
Catrinamonblue Resident: exactly Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: he was hurting inside - a pain that fame has no effect upon
Bruce Mowbray: This tiny bird, outside my typist's window right now, seeking its food at the feeder,
Bruce Mowbray: this is enough.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bruce Mowbray: TY, Aph. You understand!
Aphrodite Macbain: nature is enough
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhhh, relief.
Aphrodite Macbain: hugs
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you so much.
Bruce Mowbray: I am crying right now.
Aphrodite Macbain: I am happiest when I'm out in nature or drawing a plant :-) perhaps Hoffman became estranged from nature
Bruce Mowbray: (sry).
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's ok Bruce
Catrinamonblue Resident: we all need to cry
Bruce Mowbray: I think I'm going to have to leave.
Bruce Mowbray: So sry.
Catrinamonblue Resident: hugs

Bruce leaves
Aphrodite Macbain: awww
Aphrodite Macbain: poor guy
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes... he feels things very deeply
Aphrodite Macbain: depression is a frightening enemy
 

Bruce returns

Aphrodite Macbain: welcome back Bruce
Catrinamonblue Resident: wb Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: TY. I do not mean to interrupt.
Aphrodite Macbain: np
Aphrodite Macbain: hugs
Bruce Mowbray: are you sure?
Aphrodite Macbain: you are feeling very fragile aren't you
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: I apologize for my unmanly departure earlier.
Wol Euler: evening all
Catrinamonblue Resident: np Bruce it's ok
Aphrodite Macbain: hello Wol
Bruce Mowbray: I am feeling fragile, indeed.
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Wol
Aphrodite Macbain: unmanly? ha!
Bruce Mowbray: but this is where i belong.
Aphrodite Macbain: yayy
Bruce Mowbray: This has become my "Samantha."
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, good Wol.
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles. our multiple voices =Samantha (in Her movie)
Bruce Mowbray: yes, a collective voice of compassion.
Wol Euler: 7n
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: nice
Bruce Mowbray: (Still hurting, but i can bear it now.)
Wol Euler wonders what she has walked in on.
Aphrodite Macbain: compassion with honesty

Bruce Mowbray: Seymour Hoffman died today, Wol.
Wol Euler: hmmmm
Bruce Mowbray: overdose of heroin.
Wol Euler: did you know him?
Bruce Mowbray: A famous actor.
Aphrodite Macbain: he's an excellent actor...
Bruce Mowbray: I admired him greatly.
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.today.com/entertainment/p...ead-2D12043170
 

Aphrodite Macbain: I was wondering whether we could re-visit Her but focusing on some aspect of the discussion.
Bruce Mowbray: YES, Aph. Let's do that.
Catrinamonblue Resident: listens
Aphrodite Macbain: Any suggestions?
Bruce Mowbray: any particular aspect?
Catrinamonblue Resident: the letter at the end?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: on top of the building -- Amy and Theo.
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes?
Wol Euler: okay
Bruce Mowbray: powerful!
Aphrodite Macbain: in what way?
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Aphrodite Macbain: why is it powerful?
Bruce Mowbray: Well, it brought back the RL, in a way.
Bruce Mowbray: so powerful in that regard.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Catrinamonblue Resident: but also he let go
Aphrodite Macbain: Did you think they were both going to begin a romantic relationship?

Wol Euler: no, I didn't
Wol Euler: it was perhaps the first time he'd been as honest with a live person as he was in his (paid) letters
Bruce Mowbray: also, there were several flash-backs of Theo's relationship with Kathryn....
Bruce Mowbray: and also powerful in that way.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Wol Euler nods.
Bruce Mowbray: good point, Wol!
Wol Euler: shared loss, a very deep friendship, mutual support
Wol Euler: but I didn't think they would be lovers
Aphrodite Macbain: I agree- for me it was the basis of a good friendship, no more
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bruce Mowbray ponders loss and longing. . . wonders if these are the most lasting, profound human emotions.
Bruce Mowbray: the stuff of poetry and song, as it were.
Catrinamonblue Resident: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: heh heh.
Aphrodite Macbain: longing and belonging- the two opposites
Catrinamonblue Resident: and yet the same
Bruce Mowbray wonders if one EVER truly "belongs" anywhere.
Aphrodite Macbain: I felt that underlying the film was reflected our need for deep connection with ourselves and others
Bruce Mowbray: absolutely so, Aph.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: and we can't have that (connection) without honesty
Bruce Mowbray: Can you say more on that?
Bruce Mowbray: kk, thanks.
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmmm.
 

Lies, self deception an fantasy

Aphrodite Macbain: we live so much of our lives in fantasies
Aphrodite Macbain: romantic love is one
Catrinamonblue Resident: how do we know when we are being honest? with ourselves and others?
Bruce Mowbray ponders "honesty" and his typist's recent collapse in grief.
Bruce Mowbray: (When hurting, go for the fish.)
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps we can learn how to through by being aware ourselves, meditating...
Catrinamonblue Resident: there are times when I think I am being honest with myself but when I look back I see that I was not, that I was so determined to make things work that I hid from myself
Aphrodite Macbain: I think we know deep down when we are fooling ourselves
Catrinamonblue Resident: the crack in the wall
Wol Euler: I'm not sure that is true. There's something in the process which hides itself from us
Wol Euler: else we wouldn't be able to do it
Catrinamonblue Resident: in what way Wol?
Wol Euler: literally so, I feel if we were able to know as we did it, that it was a lie, I think we wouldn't do it
Catrinamonblue Resident: ah I see
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm
Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes we know but are unable to change
Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Wol about that "hiding itself."
Aphrodite Macbain: It's sometimes hard to act on our knowledge
Wol Euler: then perhaps "lie" is the wrong word for that behaviour
Wol Euler: call it simply self-defeating?
Bruce Mowbray: It is not a "lie" -- it is more like self-preservation.
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Wol Euler nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: could you give an example Wol?
Aphrodite Macbain: make one up:-)
Bruce Mowbray: i feel that i need to have more compassion for my own predicament...
Wol Euler: a genuinely believed mistake is not a lie, even though it is false
Bruce Mowbray: but compassion hurts and i don't take pain well, at all..
Aphrodite Macbain: a mistake can be many things
Wol Euler: I was interpreting your statement, Aph, and agreeing
Aphrodite Macbain: kk
Wol Euler: but I find that "lie" is the wrong word for that situation
Bruce Mowbray listens intently.
Aphrodite Macbain: here's an example:
Aphrodite Macbain: I think I'm emotionally strong enough to handle a situation
Aphrodite Macbain: but in fact if I look at it carefully, I suspect I might not be
Aphrodite Macbain: But I go ahead and put myself in that situation anyway and then...I am emotionally devastated.
Bruce Mowbray: So, then, we are the victims of our own self-delusion? : a genuinely believed mistake is not a lie, even though it is false
Aphrodite Macbain: I agree, a mistake isn't a lie
Bruce Mowbray: There are layers, here.
Wol Euler: perhaps I am just being fussy about words, as I often am
Catrinamonblue Resident: Sometimes I feel that we are never strong enough to handle what life brings us..... somehow we just get through
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Wol Euler: I'd call that situation bad judgment rather than lying, aph :)
Bruce Mowbray: Actually, "lie" is OK with me.... as long as we bring compassion for our lying to ourselves along with it.
Aphrodite Macbain: we have a choice
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't think I have used the term lying, have I?
Bruce Mowbray: No, I used that term, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: If I did, I lied
Aphrodite Macbain: ah
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
Wol Euler shrugs. Let it go, then.
Aphrodite Macbain: I think we deceive ourselves, but not lie
Bruce Mowbray: Throughout my typist's entire life -- from age 5 onwards -- lies have been a sort of refuge.
Bruce Mowbray: So, he has probably lied to himself more times than he could count.
Aphrodite Macbain: so, back to the beginning.- our need for connection
Bruce Mowbray: Now, the question is, can he also find the compassion to break through....
Aphrodite Macbain: including connection with ourselves
Bruce Mowbray: to confront the truth..... that his lies tried to protect him from?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, connection with ourselves is the entire question, at this level.
Aphrodite Macbain: but you use the word lies, not I
Bruce Mowbray: Yes "lies" was my word, not yours.
 

Wol Euler: ((I'm sorry, I'm being called away to help. See you at Berti's later))
Bruce Mowbray: bless you, Wol!
Aphrodite Macbain: bye wol

Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Wol :)
 

Aphrodite Macbain: I think that the couple on the roof (in Her) were two friends who connected, and could relax with that - a foundation for a good relationship. : something we all need I think and can find, to a certain extent, with friends in SL
Bruce Mowbray: How does one accept the ashes, then?
Bruce Mowbray: The stuff that remains, after all the fire.
Aphrodite Macbain: there will be more than ashes Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: yes, and that's why i am here right now.
Bruce Mowbray: There will be more than ashes.
Aphrodite Macbain: there will always be a spark as long as we're alive
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Aphrodite Macbain: you just need to spend more time looking at the birds
Bruce Mowbray: OH YES!
Bruce Mowbray: YOU KNOW IT!
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we are not alone in nature, are we?
Catrinamonblue Resident: no :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: we are never alone no matter where we are :)

Aphrodite Macbain: I can feel alone surrounded by people but am not alone when I am walking through Stanley Park
Bruce Mowbray: In "Nature," nothing is alone.
 

Bruce Mowbray: But that becomes the most brutal arena, also.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bruce Mowbray: I observe the birds fighting for space at their feeder....
Bruce Mowbray: and i ponder building more and more and more feeders... so they won't have to fight.
Aphrodite Macbain: but that just IS
Bruce Mowbray: But they fight anyway.
Bruce Mowbray: What is THIS!?
Aphrodite Macbain: red in tooth and claw
Bruce Mowbray: yes, red of tooth and claw.
Bruce Mowbray: Survival.
Bruce Mowbray: i do NOT like it.
Aphrodite Macbain: I still feel connected to this struggle for life- Hoffmann didn't have any more connection maybe
Bruce Mowbray: That's right. Hoffman seemingly gave up.... with the help of his heroine.
Catrinamonblue Resident: who is to know what was going on with Hoffman, who are we to say he gave up?????
Aphrodite Macbain: all those doses of heroine...

Catrinamonblue Resident: we don't know what happened.... no one does... for sure...
Aphrodite Macbain: they know what they found but of course the story could be absolutely different- someone might have put him on the toilet with the syringe and all that heroine
 

Aphrodite Macbain: If it is inevitable Bruce- why cant you accept things you cant change?
Aphrodite Macbain: there are so many things you CAN change
Bruce Mowbray: i eventually accept things that i cannot change....
Bruce Mowbray: but it takes me some time to know the difference between what i can and what I cannot change.
Bruce Mowbray: and i lack that wisdom, apparently.
Aphrodite Macbain: Know when to hold 'em, when to fold 'em and when to walk away
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes.
Bruce Mowbray: Know when to hold on, when to let go....

Bruce Mowbray: and when to walk away.
 

Catrinamonblue Resident: having lived through a couple of suicide attempts in my past I can tell you that it's not about giving up
Catrinamonblue Resident: it about PAIN and enduring it
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully to Cat.
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's about being too strong...
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
Aphrodite Macbain: too?
Catrinamonblue Resident: it is about things that cannot be put into words
Bruce Mowbray: a confession?
Bruce Mowbray: from me?
Aphrodite Macbain: no
Aphrodite Macbain: not sure what you mean Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: we cannot judge what happened to Hoffman.. only be compassionate towards him
 

Bruce Mowbray: Last September 19th, I put my beloved dog Bear to death, using the helium hood that I'd purchased for use on myself.
Catrinamonblue Resident: hugs Bruce tight
Bruce Mowbray: My compassion for his predicament overwhelmed my concern for my own suffering.
Bruce Mowbray: and now i have no more helium.
Bruce Mowbray: Sooooo.
Bruce Mowbray: the question for me now, is whether to buy some more...
Bruce Mowbray: just in case.
Bruce Mowbray: It was a smooth and comfortable death for Bear Dog.
Bruce Mowbray: I would wish the same.
Aphrodite Macbain: If you plan to take your own life rather than dying naturally, you could!
Catrinamonblue Resident: I know
Bruce Mowbray: am envious, in a way.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bruce Mowbray: for sure!
Catrinamonblue Resident: can understand that
Bruce Mowbray: and what a relief it is to know that!
Bruce Mowbray: We didn't get around to talking about "her," did we?
Aphrodite Macbain: we have nothing to fear from death- it's life that's the challenge!
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: we talked about connection and friendship Bruce
Catrinamonblue Resident: and what a challenge it is :)
Bruce Mowbray: LIFE is indeed the challenge, you got that one right on!
Aphrodite Macbain: I need connection and understanding and care from others and would like to be able to reciprocate

Catrinamonblue Resident: it's funny you know... sitting here talking with you guys and others in the past... how differently we see the world
Bruce Mowbray: differently, Cat?
Catrinamonblue Resident: how differently we see ourselves
Aphrodite Macbain: we do?
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Catrinamonblue Resident: differently but good, stretches the mind :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we think differently since coming to PAB?
Bruce Mowbray: Do you mean that our perceptions in SL are different from our perceptions in RL?
Aphrodite Macbain: is that what u are saying Cat?
Catrinamonblue Resident: no we each as individuals think in different ways and see things differently from each other
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bruce Mowbray: kk, yes, I agree.
Bruce Mowbray: and the collective observation is good.... Sharing our perceptions is good.
Aphrodite Macbain: we are all different genetically and experiencially- but still have a hell of a lot in common
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, we do have a lot in common.
Catrinamonblue Resident: but also that for myself I do think differently since coming to PaB :)
Bruce Mowbray: More than we are perhaps ready to acknowledge.
Catrinamonblue Resident: perhaps :)
Bruce Mowbray listens.......
Aphrodite Macbain listens
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's that whole learning and growing thing... every day we change and grow... lol sometimes I wonder about staying the same
Bruce Mowbray drops.
Aphrodite Macbain: I think that was something I picked up from Her, Sam changed and grew much more quickly than Theo. Not sure if that is good or bad.
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMU6aJvZXLo
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, she did grow much faster.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes, sometimes that happens in RL relationships as well
Bruce Mowbray: no need to know whether it's good or bad, though.
Aphrodite Macbain: If we don't grow in the same way at the same rate as others, does that affect our connectivity?
Aphrodite Macbain: Probably does
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Aph it does
Bruce Mowbray: It does, for sure, and an excellent observation, too.
Aphrodite Macbain: that's where relationships can fall apart
Bruce Mowbray: all the more reason for compassion.
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh yes :)
Aphrodite Macbain: plus failed expectations affect it as well
Catrinamonblue Resident: hates expectations
Bruce Mowbray: expectations are surely a lot of it.
Bruce Mowbray: and also, a lot of the source of our pain.
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: don't we expect them from others?
Bruce Mowbray: yes we do that.
Aphrodite Macbain: and when they don't "fit" we get angry or disappointed or hurt
Catrinamonblue Resident: there are always expectations, just when they become unrealistic it's very unfair to the other person
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: anger is hurt
Bruce Mowbray: Expectations are sometimes unfair to the other person.... but sometimes not.... Meanwhile, they are unfair to ourselves.
Aphrodite Macbain: amazing we are 7 billion. Thank god for the sex drive...
Bruce Mowbray: sex drive?!
Aphrodite Macbain: :/
Aphrodite Macbain: we have so many reasons not to get along...
Bruce Mowbray: My typist was raised to believe that women didn't have sex drive.
Aphrodite Macbain: silly typist
Bruce Mowbray: No, silly mama,.
Aphrodite Macbain: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: true
Bruce Mowbray: typist was the victim.
Bruce Mowbray: tragic, actually.
Aphrodite Macbain: why tragic?

Bruce Mowbray: will be running over to Berti's scene now.
Bruce Mowbray: THANK you, Aph and Cat.
Catrinamonblue Resident: sry guys... gotta run :) supper and bowling tonight
Aphrodite Macbain: in 8 minutes
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: byee
Catrinamonblue Resident: hugs Bruce... hope you're feeling better now