2014.02.03 13:00 - Synching, Surrogacy, and Sublimation

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza.
 

Eliza Madrigal: Hello Zon, Happy Year of the Horse!
Zon Kwan: wow..princess charming
Zon Kwan: hi
Eliza Madrigal grins....
Eliza Madrigal: fancy a gallop?
Zon Kwan: with pleasure
Eliza Madrigal: actually I'm not sure about this... but we can see if you can hop up
Zon Kwan: lets see
Zon Kwan: hm
Zon Kwan: dont see sit
Eliza Madrigal: not every day you get an offer from a mermaid... to ride a horse...
Zon Kwan: hehe
Zon Kwan: i know
Eliza Madrigal: hm.... maybe it isn't possible
Zon Kwan: he doesnt want me
Eliza Madrigal: or maybe the horse is upset with me for leaving him in my inventory for a year
Eliza Madrigal: not feeling generous, hah
Zon Kwan: or jealous
Zon Kwan: lol
Eliza Madrigal: possible too ^.^
Zon Kwan: sighs and sits down
Eliza Madrigal smiles....

Zon Kwan: hi Cat
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cat! Happy Year of the Horse :)
Zon Kwan: nice flag
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh wow Eliza :) lovely horse :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: and Hi Zon nice to see you :)
Zon Kwan: she is hiawatha
Eliza Madrigal: yes... ::::pets::: sweet horse, nice horse...no need to be possessive::::
Zon Kwan: the indian princess
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles

Eliza Madrigal: Zon, have you happened to see the film 'her'?
Zon Kwan: not yet, but i have heard Bruce mention it
Zon Kwan: interesting idea
Zon Kwan: hi Agatha
Eliza Madrigal: it is a must - we've been talking about it but I want to make sure not to give any spoilers :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Aggers :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aggers :)
Zon Kwan: and talk of the devil...
Agatha Macbeth: Greetings
Zon Kwan: hi Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Zon, Eliza, aggers, and Cat.
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: Good to see you, Bruce. Zon was telling me that you'd mentioned 'her' ... checked to make sure we don't give any spoilers... he's not seen it yet
Zon Kwan: who has?
Eliza Madrigal: the premise is fascinating all on its own
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have
Eliza Madrigal: Bruce, Cat and I have seen it
Zon Kwan: oh then tell me
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: and Wol, Yaku...
Bruce Mowbray: Well, hmmmm. I thought we put out a whole lot of spoilers during my session on Saturday....
Eliza Madrigal: yes we did :)) but that session is well titled not to give much away, hah
Zon Kwan: hi Bleu, Wol and Yaku
Bruce Mowbray: Oh, I see what you mean now.
Zon Kwan: oh they are not here,
Bruce Mowbray looks around for Bleu, Wol, and Yaku....
Zon Kwan: lol
Bruce Mowbray: They were here on Saturday, Zon, during my session.

Eliza Madrigal: for some reason it isn't as easy to talk about our own experiences as directly as it is, or seems to be, to talk about them indirectly...through the film content
Zon Kwan: ok, but in short its worth seing?
Eliza Madrigal: interesting aspect of surrogacy perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: YES
Eliza Madrigal: :)

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: So, both aggers and Zon have not seen the movie. How about Cat?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Bong
Eliza Madrigal: Aggers subjected herself to the theme session though... so has seen it vicariously
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zon Kwan: i better read the log then
Catrinamonblue Resident: and yes Bruce I have seen it :)
Agatha Macbeth: The vicar of Bieup
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps I should have asked my question differently.
Zon Kwan: bows to Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: just wasn't sure if we should continue that conversation, or whether we should choose a topic from the hat
Bruce Mowbray: Would aggers, Zon, and/or Cat be upset if we talked about the movie during this session? --- but tried not to give out spoilers....?
Agatha Macbeth: Not at all
Zon Kwan: go on if you like

Catrinamonblue Resident: is up for anything today :) feeling more a need to listen than talk today
Eliza Madrigal: too exciting a weekend,, Cat?
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^
Catrinamonblue Resident: not really the weekend just the time of year and some RL stuff catching up to me
Agatha Macbeth: Cat got her tongue ;)
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
Eliza Madrigal smiles @ Aggers
Agatha Macbeth smiles back @ Liz
Eliza Madrigal: you know... maybe I should sort of confess to similar. Yesterday, after the high of our conversations and meeting in the molecule, a wave of sadness came over me...
Agatha Macbeth: Awwww
Eliza Madrigal: and I felt so dark for a bit
Catrinamonblue Resident: hugs Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: it seemed to pass through eventually
Agatha Macbeth: Like post retreat blues?
Zon Kwan: sadness is allowed if temporary
Eliza Madrigal: but I realizedthere is a lot of personal suff, in the stuff we've been talking about, while talking about the film
Bruce Mowbray: I did too, Eliza, but I blamed that on Phillip Seymour Hoffman's death -- That REALLY bummed me out.
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Eliza Madrigal: then I learned of Philip Seymour Hoffman...
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods me too Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: YES

Agatha Macbeth: Hi Zenny
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi Zen
Zon Kwan: hi Zen :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zen!
Zen Arado: Hi all

Eliza Madrigal: I never thought about P.S.H, except to acknowledge, if I saw he would be in a film, that it would likely be substantive
Zon Kwan: what was so sad Eliza in the movie?
Eliza Madrigal: but the loss hit me as though a close friend

Agatha Macbeth: Bleuji :)
Bruce Mowbray: Here's Bleu . . . too!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Bleu.
Zen Arado: Hi Bleu :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bleu 2?

Eliza Madrigal: The film isn't sad... haven't felt sad about it..
Eliza Madrigal: is terrific
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Blue :)
Zon Kwan: hi Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: and yet it touches some deep things
Agatha Macbeth: Oh my
Zon Kwan: the idea is deep
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zon Kwan: who are we talking with
Agatha Macbeth wonders if Bleu has been dancing somewhere
Eliza Madrigal: what strikes you about it, not having seen it
Eliza Madrigal: (@Zon)
Zon Kwan: nods
Bleu Oleander: Aggers :)
Eliza Madrigal: "Who are we talking with?"

Eliza Madrigal: anyway... 5 minute pauses today? :))
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes please
Bruce Mowbray: sure, sounds good, Eliza.
Zen Arado: why do intelligent people waste their lives with drugs?
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: might as well ask why is there sadness in the world
Catrinamonblue Resident: or hate
Eliza Madrigal nods

Bleu Oleander: are we focusing on anything in particular during the breaks?

Catrinamonblue Resident: it is what it is

Bruce Mowbray: I am taking a MOOC right now that I hope will partially answer that question, Zen.
Zon Kwan: there is night and day
Zon Kwan: polarities
Bruce Mowbray: It is called "Good Brain Bad Brain."
Agatha Macbeth: Come to that, why do UNintelligent people do it?

Eliza Madrigal: idea for pause focus, Bleu? that would be great
Zen Arado: but they take a decision to do this
Bruce Mowbray: at first it is a decision, yes,
Bruce Mowbray: then it becomes something else, I fear.
Zen Arado: ah yes was going to do that one myself
Bruce Mowbray: something out of their control.
Eliza Madrigal: Hoffman was clean for 23 years... had a relapse... very sad
Eliza Madrigal: I'm sure at various points of his life he thought he wasn't vulnerable anymore

Bruce Mowbray: My neighbor showed up at my house and asked me to take him to jail -- so that he could get clean of heroin.
Bruce Mowbray: I did so gladly - as well as sadly - of course.
Catrinamonblue Resident: wow Bruce...
Zon Kwan: addiction
Bruce Mowbray: The chemicals simply take over.
Zon Kwan: our mind is weak
Bruce Mowbray: I don't think that's it, Zon.
Zon Kwan: seeking outside happiness

Eliza Madrigal: in the talks about 'her' , Bleu, you asked whether his *love* was a kind of addiction... the feeling when he couldn't sign on. A lot of people in SL have to find healthy balances or give it up too, for that matter. It isn't a perfect parallel, but maybe it gives us a link

Bruce Mowbray: If I hit your knee and you have an impulse jerk reaction, is that because your mind is weak.
Bruce Mowbray: Obviously not.
Bleu Oleander: for many its seeking relief from the pressures of life
Bruce Mowbray: I think heroin acts somewhat like that.

Zen Arado: addiction is with something that is bad for you though?
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
Eliza Madrigal: something good for you can be bad for you if taken to extremes?
Zen Arado: can we say that about SL used in moderation?
Bruce Mowbray: so the individual HAD to have started without the addiction, originally.
Zen Arado: otherwise anything we do a lot is addiction
Bruce Mowbray: (which surely IS stupid, or desperate.)
Zen Arado: sleeping is an addiction?
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Bruce Mowbray: could be, yes.
Eliza Madrigal: can be...an escape
Bleu Oleander: sleeping is necessary for life
Bruce Mowbray: as is eating -- sometimes drinking...
Zon Kwan: seeking desperately happines form outside objects is addiction
Zen Arado: yes..it's the extremes
Bruce Mowbray: and any other thing that the brain can interpret as fulfilling its hungers.
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not saying that heroin is ever healthy, btw :)

Agatha Macbeth: Sera QT
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Qt!
Qt Core: Hi all!
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Qt
Zen Arado: Hi Qt
Bleu Oleander: hi Qt
Zon Kwan: hi Qt

Bruce Mowbray: Derivatives of the heroine poppy substance can actually be good....
Zen Arado: marriage an addiction to a person?
Eliza Madrigal: we're close to the first pause :)
Bruce Mowbray: morphine, for instance.
Zen Arado: heh stirring it up
Agatha Macbeth: True Bruce

Agatha Macbeth: Hi Aphie
Bleu Oleander: hi Aph
Zen Arado: Hi Aph
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Aph
Eliza Madrigal: H Aph :) we're almost ready to pause for 5 minutes
Bruce Mowbray: But only when it is very very carefully by professionals under highly obcerved conditions.
Zon Kwan: marriage can be addiction but it is curable
Agatha Macbeth waves to the merry widow
Zen Arado: addicted to pauses
Aphrodite Macbain: hi!

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: we've so far been talking about 'addiction'

Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Zon Kwan: (hi Aph)
Aphrodite Macbain: (hi)
Agatha Macbeth: me wonders if she is crashing
Aphrodite Macbain: moi?
Agatha Macbeth: Hm, obviously not
Agatha Macbeth: No me
Agatha Macbeth: It went quiet
Aphrodite Macbain: just responding to other IMS
Bruce Mowbray: 5-minute drop.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Bruce Mowbray: Don't think you are crashing, aggers.
Aphrodite Macbain: so... addiction?
Bruce Mowbray waits for Eliza's gong.
Aphrodite Macbain: who isn't addicted to something?
Aphrodite Macbain: the bell went...
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, but not Eliza's.
Aphrodite Macbain: ah
Bruce Mowbray: THERE it is!
Bruce Mowbray: HA!

Bruce Mowbray: A howdy-do to YOU, Lady Aph!
Agatha Macbeth: Couldn't see it under her skirt
Aphrodite Macbain: there are 2 gongs?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, two rings.
Bruce Mowbray: one from the fountain and one from Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: :) when we take 5 minutes...most of the time during this session
Aphrodite Macbain: I see

Qt Core: i thought i was addicted to cola sodas, but i abruptly stopped in october and had less than 0.25L since then
Eliza Madrigal: wow, excellent Qt
Aphrodite Macbain: shows how often I've come at this time! :(
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes Aph... nice for you to be here
Agatha Macbeth: Well done QT
Bruce Mowbray: np, everyone new to Eliza's session going through this wee initiation, Aph.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bruce Mowbray: So, welcome!
Qt Core: (tried coke zero.... horrible, sadly i can taste aspertame)
Aphrodite Macbain smiles

Bleu Oleander: what is the purpose of doing the 5 min ? should we be noticing something different than during the normal 90 sec pauses?

Aphrodite Macbain: ugh nothing worse
Agatha Macbeth: Coke is bad for you period
Bruce Mowbray: I have found that some personalities are highly prone to addictive behaviours and some are not.
Aphrodite Macbain: both kinds
Bruce Mowbray: My typist does NOT have an addictive personality.
Qt Core: well, probably the only problem it didn't give me ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: I think he could "try" just about anything and he could break away from it in an instant.

Eliza Madrigal: the purpose orginally was to create a more retreat feeling in this session, Bleu
Qt Core: even books, Bruce ? ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: along the way it has taken on its own rhythms...
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, even books.

Bleu Oleander: how is the 5 min different than the 90 sec?

Aphrodite Macbain: interesting
Bruce Mowbray: TV, cigs, Coke, anything.
Zon Kwan: all outside things
Bruce Mowbray: But I don't want to see him experiment.
Bruce Mowbray: He really HATES drugs.

Eliza Madrigal: for me it is different... not sure for others
Aphrodite Macbain: It's longer Bleu :-)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: the 5 minutes push me farther, so that I respect the 90 seconds when they come up, more
Bleu Oleander: I mustn't be sensitive enough to tell the diff :)
Eliza Madrigal: not sure how that is..but it is kind of a re-challenge

Bruce Mowbray: Gets absolutely NOTHING out of them, fortunately. (Learned that in Berkeley almost five decades ago.)
Aphrodite Macbain: learned what Bruce?
Eliza Madrigal: we have a lot of energy today too :)
Aphrodite Macbain: addictions?
Bruce Mowbray: I learned that drugs were NOT for my typist.
Aphrodite Macbain: ah
Bruce Mowbray: He HATES them.
Aphrodite Macbain: my drug of choice is caffeine
Catrinamonblue Resident: never tried nay so I have no idea....
Bruce Mowbray: Hates not having a fairly rational mind, I suppose.
Bruce Mowbray: Coffee is good, yes, but also addicting.
Catrinamonblue Resident: cept alcohol :) love to drink but not addicted to it :)
Bleu Oleander: caffeine and alcohol are drugs also
Aphrodite Macbain: I have a hard time moving into the day without it
Bruce Mowbray: (same here, Cat.)
Zen Arado: and tea
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: nicotine too

Bruce Mowbray: I think I might get addicted to a Samantha OS, though.

Eliza Madrigal: I think, personally, that in our time most ride on habitual tendencies that could be seen as addictions in certain lights
Aphrodite Macbain: caffeine in the tea Zen?
Bleu Oleander: some drugs may be socially more acceptable than others
Zen Arado: oh yes
Zen Arado: though I dring Redbush tea atm
Aphrodite Macbain: yes - usually seen by others who dont have those addictions Eliza

Eliza Madrigal: I 'rely' on coffee, and underneath that, the energy I misbelieve that it gives me
Zen Arado: caffeine free
Eliza Madrigal: I know rationally that it is more harmful for me because I'm not moderate
Aphrodite Macbain: interesting Zen- and you're still addicted to it?
Zen Arado: lots of Americans are coffee addicts
Eliza Madrigal: but I still reach, and choose it every day
Bleu Oleander: lots in other countries too
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, my typist's mother was a caffeine addict.
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe that's simply habit
Zen Arado: no I'm not..just saying that it also has caffeine like coffee

Catrinamonblue Resident: wondering what we should focus on for the next DROP :)
Zen Arado: some drink many cups of tea daily
Catrinamonblue Resident: enough of addictions please :)
Eliza Madrigal: something calm? less caffinated a topic? lol
Eliza Madrigal: suggestion Cat?
Catrinamonblue Resident: don`t know but I feel addictions is done
Catrinamonblue Resident: over and gone

Bruce Mowbray: How about "surrogates"?
Zon Kwan: good, lets have a beer
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zen Arado: :)
Bleu Oleander: not sure why addictions is not a good topic ... esp in light of the movie ... tech addictions

Zen Arado: did surrogacy in philosophy one time
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps surrogacy is also an addiction.
Aphrodite Macbain: listens to Zen
Bruce Mowbray: also listens to Zen.
Zen Arado: but you mean a different type Bruce I think

((Cat poofs))

Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: I think it is something hard to express completely in a session like this, but something we may want to spend time thinking about (some of us) who were perhaps hit from a blind spot
Zon Kwan waves and walks to bar
Agatha Macbeth: Have one for me Zon

Eliza Madrigal: I wonder...
Agatha Macbeth: Me too
Eliza Madrigal: if part of the pauses might be to synch in with one another
Eliza Madrigal: catch the same waves
Agatha Macbeth: Hm, not sure

Eliza Madrigal: was saying at the beginning of session that the discussion about 'her' has been about many things on personal levels for some
Eliza Madrigal: touches some deep feelings perhaps

Bruce Mowbray: Heya, druth!
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Druthy
Zen Arado: Hi Druth
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi druth
druth Vlodovic: hey guys
Bleu Oleander: hi druth

Eliza Madrigal: so yes... like a surrogate to handle what a person might not think they can

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :)
PhilNS Schumann: heya all
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Phil, nice to see you again
Zen Arado: Hi Phi
Eliza Madrigal: welcome back
PhilNS Schumann: my pleasure
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Phil!
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Phil

Eliza Madrigal: Bruce, was there a particular aspect of surrogacy you thought to talk about?
Eliza Madrigal: I'll IM you Phil, with a little background
Agatha Macbeth: Or a big one
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. Only that our surrogates seems to be "signs."
Zen Arado: surrogate mothers was topic I studied
Bruce Mowbray:Signs of what we regard as real and valuable.

Bruce Mowbray ponders those surrogate mothers and those wire frames.
Bruce Mowbray: poor little monkeys.
Aphrodite Macbain: are surrogate mothers successful mothers?
Zen Arado: they carry a baby for some woamn who can't or doesn't wish to herself
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh.
Aphrodite Macbain: oh those!
Bruce Mowbray: kk, thanks, Zen.
Aphrodite Macbain: kk
Zen Arado: success is having a healthy baby for her
Aphrodite Macbain: must be hard on the biological mother to give up the child
Zen Arado: interesting sideline
Zen Arado: ha yes
Zen Arado: one of the snags
Zen Arado: some can't

Zen Arado: I made the argument that it could be seen as a form of prostitution since many are highly paid to do it
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that some of us also have surrogate minds -- letting others do our feeling, experiencing, and thinking for us.
druth Vlodovic: the similarity is vague in most ways I suspect
Zen Arado: but my tutor said prostitution is ok...anyone who works for a living prostitutes themselves
Bruce Mowbray: That was one question that needed to be cleared up in the movie "her" -- whether Isabella was a prostitute or not.
Zen Arado: so a nurse also sells her services
Zen Arado: hmm
druth Vlodovic: or "wage slaves"
Aphrodite Macbain: a pretty broad definition of prostitution
Bleu Oleander: please excuse me . . . rl call . . . take care all
Zen Arado: yeh something not right about that I thought

Eliza Madrigal: Has anyone seen the film that Helen Hunt did recently...
Zen Arado: but logically ok

Aphrodite Macbain: byee bleu
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu :)
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, Bleu!
Qt Core: Bye Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Aww bye Bleu

Zen Arado: one reason I don't like philosophy so much now
Eliza Madrigal: The Sessions
Zen Arado: bye Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: In that film she was a sex surrogate of sorts
Zen Arado: no Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: it was a beautiful film...
Zen Arado: ah

Bruce Mowbray: She was clearly a sexual surrogate for the OS, yes.
druth Vlodovic: I like philosophy as an activity, but I don't seek TRUTH through any manner, it seems a waste of time and etc
Bruce Mowbray: (and maybe one of the OS's 600+ friends.)
Eliza Madrigal: I saw Isabella as seeing herself in that light [clarifying - as close to the character Helen played]
Aphrodite Macbain: druth- we are talking about the movie HER
druth Vlodovic: a lot of the fuss over prostitution and porn etc is based on the idea that sex is inherently "bad"
Zen Arado: good point
Bruce Mowbray: well, yes and no, Aph. We've been dodging in and out of that discussion.
druth Vlodovic: I haven't seen it but I have seen bits about it
Zen Arado: but can be sleazy sex
Aphrodite Macbain: nods

Eliza Madrigal: well, I would recommend The Sessions highly... if really interested in nuance

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: what is it about?
Eliza Madrigal: (pausing for 5 minutes)
druth Vlodovic: well, even "sleazy" is subjective and values-based
Bruce Mowbray: Wow! What a cool recommendation for a movie to watch, Eliza! THANKS. I just put it in my queue from Netlix: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1866249/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
Eliza Madrigal: most welcome, Bruce.
Zen Arado: it expresses something we feel intuitively though I feel
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps any time we're talking about a=good, and b=bad, we're not realy helping ourselves
Aphrodite Macbain: no
Aphrodite Macbain: but I suppose moral distinctions are something we learn through life
Bruce Mowbray listens carefull to Zen, who has been through some of these things.
Zen Arado: who hasn't ?
Zen Arado: :)
Eliza Madrigal: indeed :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes! Indeed.
Eliza Madrigal: but I'll listen anyway, Zen...heheh
Zen Arado: nothing more to add
Bruce Mowbray: kk, np.

Zen Arado: tutor's comment just made me wonder
Eliza Madrigal: which? I'm having a hard time keeping up with all lines today
druth Vlodovic: although we could try going full circle in the discussion by tying morality to involuntary activities and desires, ie addiction

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Aphrodite Macbain: hey wol
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Boxy...er...Wol :p
druth Vlodovic: sry, go on zen

Zen Arado: that prostitution was ok cos we all prostitute ourselves in some fashion when we work for a living
Wol Euler: well, that was annoying. I've been stuck at "connecting to region" since 1:07
Bruce Mowbray: Before my typist took the heroin addict to the county jail, he and the kid talked for three hours in my typist's living room. It was a valuiable discussion -- for my typist. I don't know if it was valuable for the kid.
Eliza Madrigal: awwww, poor dear
PhilNS Schumann: ciao Wol
Aphrodite Macbain: :/
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Agatha Macbeth: I applaud your patience
Wol Euler smiles modestly.

Eliza Madrigal: what a great point Zen!
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Wol-ji!
Zen Arado: Hi Wol
Zen Arado: but still uneasy with that
Wol Euler waves to all the lovely avatars
Aphrodite Macbain: how does your teacher define prostitution Zen?
Zen Arado: anyway..
Bruce Mowbray: Must every trade-off -exchange - be a form of prostitution., then?
Agatha Macbeth: Sounds fine to me
druth Vlodovic: well,for theat statement to stand you would have to buy into "prostituting" being a matter of coercion
Bruce Mowbray: I don't think so.
Zen Arado: he only saw it from a logical utilitarian perspective
druth Vlodovic: rather than an exchange of value

Eliza Madrigal: I was listening to a talk about buddhist 8 fold path recently, and the teacher rightly pointed out that although it is admirable for someone to say, not eat meat because they are trying to not kill... in truth, getting out of bed in the morning, taking a shower... moving in the world, we are killing all the time, at some level. Perhaps we should be humble, iow, if judging others
Wol Euler nods.
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: we can't avoid killing
Eliza Madrigal: which is not to say "just give up because you can't do it"
Zen Arado: no
Eliza Madrigal: but keep in check, in a sense

Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. Ponders Eos' "Frame-of-reference" lesson from yesterday's guardian mtg.
Zen Arado: we can only kill when necessary
Agatha Macbeth: Yes I liked that
druth Vlodovic: they say some cultures would thank animals for their lives when hunting

Eliza Madrigal: loved that... hadn't heard of that before
Aphrodite Macbain: some say marriage is prostitution...
Eliza Madrigal: (frame of reference-will find it one moment)
Eliza Madrigal: depends on the marriage :)

Zen Arado: actually philosophy course was called 'Life and Death' and was all about killing
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. Fascinating, Zen.
Bruce Mowbray: I wish I could have taken that one.
Zen Arado: from capital punishment, abortion, euthanasia, suicide
Aphrodite Macbain: the Jaines try not to kill anything as part of their religion
Zen Arado: a very jolly course :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, those are issues close to my heart.
Eliza Madrigal: I'll post the frame of reference text at the beginning of the next pause (3 minutes from now). That pause will be 'normal' at 90 seconds
Bruce Mowbray: Especially since i live in a state that still has capital punishment,
Aphrodite Macbain: they wear face masks so as not to breathe in insects
Bruce Mowbray: and i am seriously considering moving out of the state into one that does NOT.
Eliza Madrigal: Ahimsa
Aphrodite Macbain: and sweep the way in front of them
Eliza Madrigal: "do no harm"
Bruce Mowbray: kk, thanks, Eliza,.

--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal:

Eos Amaterasu: looking at Diggers in 1966 or so.... "Two Diggers brought a huge wooden frame, twelve feet square and painted in bright yellow, to the intersection of Haight and Ashbury Streets. They called it a "Frame of Reference."

Dozens of yellow three-inch replicas of the "Frame" were handed to passersby; the small frames were hung on straps so they could be worn around the neck. People were urged by the Diggers to look through the small squares so they could experience the event through their own "frames of reference."

Aphrodite Macbain: I have to go and rehearse. Byee everyone
druth Vlodovic: hugs aph
Zen Arado: breal a leg Aph
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Aphie act well
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Aph-ji!
Eliza Madrigal: :) waves

Eliza Madrigal: What made you think of the frames, Bruce?
druth Vlodovic: sounds like a discussion I had about art with someone
Wol Euler: bye aph
druth Vlodovic: stick a frame around anything and you can hang it up to be admired
Zen Arado: do they mean Diggers as in Australian soldiers?
Bruce Mowbray listens for more from druth before answering Eliza's question.
Eliza Madrigal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diggers_(theater)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, druth!
Eliza Madrigal: [lots of performance artists around that time]
Bruce Mowbray: and tha Dada-ists did exactly that!
druth Vlodovic: umm, that was it
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: Performance art.
Zen Arado: ah ok
Bruce Mowbray: (so much mis-understood!)

Qt Core: i need to go, bye all
Eliza Madrigal: bye Qt :)
Zen Arado: bye Qt
Agatha Macbeth: Ciao QT
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, Qt-ji!
PhilNS Schumann: Ciao QT
Wol Euler: bye qt, take care

Zen Arado: lots of artists I know have a frame to put around work to see what it looks like framed
Zen Arado: I never understood that
Agatha Macbeth: I can relate to that
Bruce Mowbray: I cannot recommend highly enough the wonderful biography of John Cage by Kay Larson --- So goes into considerable depth about the "performance artists."
Zen Arado: I hate paying for the damn things
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, more understandable then :p
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: frames help to show someone 'else' how it might matter for them
Zen Arado: you have to frame pastels though, to protect them
Bruce Mowbray: good point, Eliza!
Agatha Macbeth: You've been framed
Eliza Madrigal: it already matters to the express-er
Eliza Madrigal: (whatever it is) :)
Zen Arado: I think SL paintings look better without frames
Bruce Mowbray wonders what the experience would be like if one decided to have no "frames" but the entire cosmos.
Zen Arado: though it helps them in RL
Zen Arado: not sure why
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: I listened to an interesting talk today... about sublimated desire
( http://podbay.fm/show/307934313/e/12...70?autostart=1 ) 

Bruce Mowbray: also remembers that every "frame" needs an object and a ground.
Zen Arado: hmm :)
Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Liza!
Zen Arado: where you looking at me Eliza ?
Zen Arado: :)
Wol Euler listens.
Eliza Madrigal: hehe

Eliza Madrigal: was just giggling at the analogy the speaker used....
Bruce Mowbray also listens.
Eliza Madrigal: that of ping pong balls one tries to hold under water
Zen Arado: yeh..sooner or later....bob to surface
Eliza Madrigal nods...
Eliza Madrigal: and if they can't in some healthy way
Eliza Madrigal: then that's where addictions and such come in
Wol Euler: and the farther down you push, the faster and harder they come back up
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps surrogates are midwives sometimes
Bruce Mowbray continues to listen.
Eliza Madrigal: "if you bring forth what is within you, what is within you will save you, and if you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you"...
Eliza Madrigal: gnostic gospel quote

Bruce Mowbray: Gospel of Thomas!
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Agatha Macbeth: Rock on Tommy
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: skeptic :))
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, TOMMY did rock --- written about 140 A.D.
Agatha Macbeth nods
Bruce Mowbray: (Gospel of Tommy, actually.)
Zen Arado: sure played a mean pinball
Zen Arado: sorry
Eliza Madrigal: I've not read the gnostic gospels whole unfortunately... just quotes like most
Eliza Madrigal: hahah Zen
Agatha Macbeth: It means twin
Wol Euler: I bet we were all thinking that :)
Wol Euler: I ceratinly was

Bruce Mowbray: My typist will be giving a Sunday school lesson on Gnosticism in May....
Eliza Madrigal: oh? you know all these interesting things Aggers :)
Agatha Macbeth: Sounds good Brucie
Agatha Macbeth: In SL?
Bruce Mowbray: not in SL, in RL.
Eliza Madrigal: that would be great... having heard one of Bruce's lessons, we'd all benefit
Agatha Macbeth: Awww poo
Bruce Mowbray: at the Presbyterian Church in Circleville, Ohio.
Bruce Mowbray: Whew!
Bruce Mowbray: What a blast that is!<comma>
Zen Arado: oh
Agatha Macbeth: You should do them in SL too
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: Don't know about that.
Eliza Madrigal: yes... all that trouble..might as well practice on us
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: another issue.
Bruce Mowbray: matter,
Bruce Mowbray: question,
Bruce Mowbray: conundrum.
Zen Arado: can't imagine my local presbyterian church entertaining that

druth Vlodovic: so is gnosticism mainstream?
Agatha Macbeth: We could use the theatre ;P
Eliza Madrigal: yeah :))
Wol Euler snorts.
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to be becoming sort of mainstream, actually.
Eliza Madrigal: theater of Bruce's mind
Bruce Mowbray: There are several websites devoted to modern gnosticism.
Bruce Mowbray: -org, -net, etc etc.

druth Vlodovic: maybe we'd get more people if we charged admission :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: protestants don't recognise those gospels
Agatha Macbeth grins
Zen Arado: Apocrypha?
Bruce Mowbray: Charging admission would be a form of prostitution -- from some earlier references, or no?
Zen Arado: not where I live anyway :)
Eliza Madrigal: knowledges/information can't be doled out in little bits anymore... most institutions really have to face the reality that the people attending have access to many more materials than they used to
druth Vlodovic: now if only we could put that in the advertising copy

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray wonders "where" Zen lives.
Zen Arado: N.Ireland
Bruce Mowbray: no, I mean, "LIVES!"
Agatha Macbeth: Pas oú il habite eh? :p
Zen Arado: they are very like bible belt US fundamentalists
Zen Arado: (not me)
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully, since his typist lives in that Bible Belt.
Agatha Macbeth: Amen Corner?
Bruce Mowbray: You better believe it!

Zen Arado: well I thought only Catholcs accepted the Apocrypha in the bible canon?
Zen Arado: so surprised to hear you can give talk in Presbyterian church
Agatha Macbeth: Oh you'd be surprised what we''ll accept sometimes
Bruce Mowbray: It is probably the "JOKE" of the entire world, but around here, it matter big-time... like which textbooks get selected in public schools, and who gets elected to school boards.

Eliza Madrigal: (excuse me for a moment...desiring tea)
Agatha Macbeth: Bring me one too Liz
Bruce Mowbray: np, Eliza,
Zen Arado: caffeine fix ? heh
druth Vlodovic: are you teaching kids or adults?
Zen Arado: creationists?
Bruce Mowbray: To whom are you directing that "?" druth?
druth Vlodovic: you
Agatha Macbeth: :p
Bruce Mowbray: i teach no one. I am almost 72 years old.
druth Vlodovic: you mentioned "sunday school" which makes me think of grade school
Bruce Mowbray: Well, that is different.

Wol Euler: (insofar as it is possible to live an active life without teaching something to someone :)

druth Vlodovic: er, then whoever talked about teaching gnosticism
Agatha Macbeth is sure Brucie is a fine teacher
Wol Euler nods.
Zen Arado: yep
Bruce Mowbray: I thought you were referring to public schools and public school boards.
Bruce Mowbray: ty, modestly blushes.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh my.
Zen Arado: I used to teach Sunday school
Zen Arado: children only though
Bruce Mowbray: This has been a fine sessopn -=--- even though i originally thought wqe'd be talking about the movie "her" -- but it turned out well anyway.
Bruce Mowbray: So, thank you one and all!
Zen Arado: yeh I better go too
Agatha Macbeth: Digressions eh
druth Vlodovic: maybe we need a screening of the movie online :)
Wol Euler smiles.

Bruce Mowbray: Off to scrape up supper.
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Brucie and Zenny take care
Wol Euler: bye bruce, bye zen
PhilNS Schumann: ciao to everybody's leaving
Zen Arado: interesting digressions
Agatha Macbeth: Scrape well
druth Vlodovic: have fun guys
Bruce Mowbray: G'night, everyone!
Zen Arado: byee everyone
Eliza Madrigal: okay water on..
Eliza Madrigal: Oh...bye Zen and Bruce :)
Agatha Macbeth: Water way to go

Eliza Madrigal: realized that someone else in the film is a surrogate
Wol Euler: oh?
Agatha Macbeth: Who?
Eliza Madrigal: the actress he looks up
Agatha Macbeth ponders looking up an actress
Wol Euler frowns
Eliza Madrigal: she then becomes the image in his head
Wol Euler: I don't remember an actress ... when was that?
Eliza Madrigal: when he tried to have phone sex
Wol Euler: ah
Eliza Madrigal: so he is using her image
Agatha Macbeth: Cyberfun
Eliza Madrigal: and she is giving it to him...
Eliza Madrigal: selling it to him
Wol Euler: "dead cat" ........ mmmmkay
Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
Eliza Madrigal: well, I mean before that

druth Vlodovic: in a way everyone can be a surrogate if we aren't careful to keep revising our view of them
Wol Euler: ah :)
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^

Wol Euler: I don't remember that
Agatha Macbeth: You were in the kitchen :p
Eliza Madrigal: the 'image' of the woman he looked at when going through emails on the train

Eliza Madrigal: interesting idea druth...
Eliza Madrigal: but how can we? how often would we have to keep revising?
druth Vlodovic: each time you interract with or hear about someone
Wol Euler: oh her, yes, I remember that now
Wol Euler: before he met Sam
Eliza Madrigal: so would need a kind of white board foundation
Eliza Madrigal: yes, before Sam

Eliza Madrigal: possible to keep intimacy while also refreshing expectations in that way?
Agatha Macbeth: Theo seems to have a people problem
Eliza Madrigal: intimacy being based on knowing
Eliza Madrigal: :) Aggers

druth Vlodovic: thre alternative is to have an ever increasing gap between you and the person you think you know
Wol Euler: which is one of the subthemes of the film ...
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: ....the day breaks, your mind aches...
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuphFPEqJqw)

Eliza Madrigal: even with best intentions I don't see no gaps as possible
Eliza Madrigal: no getting out of synch
Agatha Macbeth: Back to the gaps
druth Vlodovic: keeps things interesting

Eliza Madrigal: kettle whistling... brb again
Agatha Macbeth: Wow, do kettles still whistle?

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: mine do :)
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Agatha Macbeth: Wolf whistle probably ;)
Wol Euler: :)

Eliza Madrigal: sometimes sessions carry some of the things people can't say outrightly or don't now how to deal with outrightly...by making the topic general, etc...
Eliza Madrigal: have been thinking about this since yesterday
Eliza Madrigal: when I felt myself hit by the sudden emotion
Agatha Macbeth: Hm
Eliza Madrigal: after the talks of last few days, and the kind of manic heights at times
Wol Euler listens.
Agatha Macbeth: You let something out?
Eliza Madrigal: yes... a bit like the kettle
Agatha Macbeth: Or in? :p
Wol Euler smiles.
Agatha Macbeth: 'The cracks are where the light comes in'
Eliza Madrigal: that's exactly it
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: it kind of reminds me of church as a child... that feeling of exposure... like all your inside thoughts were on the outside
Agatha Macbeth: Good old Len
Eliza Madrigal: yeah :)

druth Vlodovic: g2g get supper
druth Vlodovic: cya
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Druthy
Eliza Madrigal: have a good night Druth, gtsy

PhilNS Schumann: have a n interesting supper Druth
Wol Euler: bye druth
Eliza Madrigal: wasn't sure if you wandered off Phil :)
PhilNS Schumann: ㋡
Agatha Macbeth: I wonder if you wander

PhilNS Schumann: hmm well there are days when making your voice heard above all is the thing to be done.
PhilNS Schumann: there are other days, when everything feels flowing nicely as it is, and then just listening is the right thing to be done.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Agatha Macbeth: Wonder what ever happened to Susan?
Eliza Madrigal: well now's your chance to find a nice middle ground
Wol Euler: wander in hope?
Wol Euler: haven't seen her in years
Agatha Macbeth: Nope
Agatha Macbeth: Never said much when she was here
Wol Euler: knowing the difference between them is the key, Phil
PhilNS Schumann: hahaha I suppose so Wol
PhilNS Schumann: but telling the truth I was also testing myself .. and feeling how was it to participate into something .. and still being outside of the very thing
Eliza Madrigal: that's interesting... what did you score?
PhilNS Schumann: scored great ! been interesting. But I also reckon it requires great people around you to get a great score.
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: for great people, this is the place :)
Agatha Macbeth: There's no I in team
Wol Euler smiles.

Eliza Madrigal: I heated water but you ended up with tea Aggers... how did that happen?

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: It's Irish :p
Agatha Macbeth: Surrogate tea-drinking
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: when I was posting a session, or rereading..can't remember which... I came across a line of yours I'd missed, Aggers...
Agatha Macbeth: Hm?
Eliza Madrigal: about there being no danger of your falling in love with Windows
Agatha Macbeth: Ah yes!
Eliza Madrigal: stopped and giggled for a bit :)
Agatha Macbeth: Might commit murder :p
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Agatha Macbeth: I know Wollie loves it too
Eliza Madrigal: crime of passion
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
PhilNS Schumann: and speaking of surrogates .. Windows probably is a Mac one ?
Wol Euler grins.
Eliza Madrigal: good question!
Wol Euler: Windows is Macintosh for poeple who'd rather spend time and anger than money :)
Agatha Macbeth: Thirtieth anniversary of the Mac recently I think
Eliza Madrigal: there's a marketing line for you
Wol Euler: yes,aggers
Wol Euler: the famous Superbowl ad of 1984
Agatha Macbeth: Oh let me think, who was in that?
Agatha Macbeth: Washington?
PhilNS Schumann: lol .. in 1984 ?
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
PhilNS Schumann: hahaha something like that indeed
Agatha Macbeth: And the Raiders possibly
Agatha Macbeth: Seems to ring a bell
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't watch the superbowl last night, but followed tweets about it

Agatha Macbeth: Did the Broncos win?
Eliza Madrigal: alas, poor Stormy
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Agatha Macbeth: I take it that's a no :(
Eliza Madrigal: a deep 'no'
Agatha Macbeth sighs
Agatha Macbeth: Come back Elway
Eliza Madrigal: as an indication of how deep, Steve Martin tweeted this 30 minutes before the game ended:
Eliza Madrigal: Steve Martin @SteveMartinToGo The score doesn't indicate how close it really is.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear
Wol Euler smiles.
PhilNS Schumann: positive guy
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Agatha Macbeth: Maybe just as well it wasn't on here
Eliza Madrigal: some were watching the puppy bowl ^^
Agatha Macbeth: Who did the half time show?
Eliza Madrigal: bruno mars and um...
Eliza Madrigal: :::thinks:::
Agatha Macbeth: Oh Um
Agatha Macbeth: I like her
Eliza Madrigal: chilli peppers
Agatha Macbeth: Red hot?
Eliza Madrigal laughs..
Eliza Madrigal: as far as I know
Agatha Macbeth: Give it away now

Eliza Madrigal: I do like the song about LA being his companion
Agatha Macbeth: Mm
Agatha Macbeth: Under the bridge
Eliza Madrigal: reminded me of The Doors
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Eliza Madrigal: when I was 18 I was sure Jim was still living in the mountains of Colorado and had faked his death to escape fame
Eliza Madrigal: @@
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe Stormy is really him ;)
Eliza Madrigal grins
Eliza Madrigal: Nobody else could be Stormy
Agatha Macbeth: Riders on the storm
Eliza Madrigal: haha
PhilNS Schumann: hmm this is bordering blasphemy now ㋡
Wol Euler grins.
Agatha Macbeth: I can do that, I'm catholic
PhilNS Schumann: agreed. you've got all what it takes then
Agatha Macbeth: Yep
Eliza Madrigal: :)

PhilNS Schumann: but curiosity ... how many SuperBowls would you dare .. or like to live in a single year ?
Agatha Macbeth: Oh no need to overdo it
Agatha Macbeth: Those things must take all year just to plan

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: I kept a comfortable distance from even this one
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: We should hold one in the molecule sometime

Agatha Macbeth: Anyways...
PhilNS Schumann: hahah . odd now. I thought every US citizen HAD to follow superbowl or risked to get a poll to get their greencard/citizenship revoked
Agatha Macbeth: My eyes are starting to cross sitting here
Wol Euler: I've been trying since this conversation drifted to the superbowl to find somethiing I read and didn'T bookmark this morning
Wol Euler: (bye aggers, sleep well)
Agatha Macbeth: And did you?
Wol Euler: no :(

PhilNS Schumann: nite Agatha .. interesting dreams up there
Agatha Macbeth: Yah
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Eliza Madrigal: :) bye for now friends
Agatha Macbeth: What was it?
Eliza Madrigal: nite Aggers :)

Wol Euler: nerdy guy talks for two paragraphs about his favourite World of Warcraft characters and the quest chains they are currently completing
Agatha Macbeth: Don't forget the bell :p
Agatha Macbeth: Ah...right
PhilNS Schumann: nite Eliza .. take care
Eliza Madrigal: thanks!
Wol Euler: and at the end says "If you are bored and confused by all that? that is how I feel when you talk about sports"
Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
Eliza Madrigal: "come here bell, I'm sorry I keep leaving you.."
Wol Euler: hehehe
Agatha Macbeth: The bell thanks you

Wol Euler: it is midnight, time to go
Agatha Macbeth: It is indeed
Wol Euler: goodnight all, lovely to see you *finally*
Agatha Macbeth: See ye anon
Eliza Madrigal: nice to be able to linger today
PhilNS Schumann: waves at Wol.. nite nite there too
Agatha Macbeth: Mm yes
Eliza Madrigal: don't be such a stranger Phil
Wol Euler: lovely to have you lingering
Agatha Macbeth: Linger longer
Eliza Madrigal: and get to bed Wol :))
Wol Euler: yep
Wol Euler: goodnight all
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: Nite
Agatha Macbeth: ♥
PhilNS Schumann: thanks Eli
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal have a thing with 'l's... at least my choices in av names seem to suggest that
Wol Euler grins.
Eliza Madrigal: :) good you could get into SL! bfn :)
Wol Euler: bye! take care</comma>