2014.02.09 01:00 - Infiniteness

Wol Euler was guardian for this session, the start of which was delayed until SL settled down.

Bertram Jacobus: wow - ganz alleine !? guten morgen wol ! :-)
Wol Euler: good morning, berti
Wol Euler: the sim was down until a few moments ago, perhaps that is why
Wol Euler: I've been trying to get on since 9:50
Bertram Jacobus: oh. i see ...
Wol Euler: how's life in the north?
Bertram Jacobus: north ? hmmm - we don´t feel so much nordy i guess - more like wessis we may feeel ... ;-)
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: I'm thinking that the forecasters were right, and we might not get a real winter at all this year
Bertram Jacobus: and it´s okay - ty - a buddhist would say perhaps : mixed karma, what should mean : normal. but how about you !? :-)
Wol Euler: also mixed, but mostly good
Bertram Jacobus: yeah - change of climate ...
Qt Core: Hi Wo, Bertram
Bertram Jacobus: good morning cutie ! ;-)
Wol Euler: hello qt
Wol Euler: SL is really struggling today, I see both of you half-grey still
Wol Euler: and bushes are still slowly popping into existence, one by one
Qt Core: and you seem quite sleepy too, Wol ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: oh. yesterday i had a problem of that kind as well. but later i found out, that programs running in the background on my computer had caused that. now here all is fine ... for me -
Qt Core: or at least your outfit is
Wol Euler smiles.
Qt Core: i've had again some bright pink effect
Wol Euler: the only thing running here other than SL is Windows Media Player
Bertram Jacobus: okay ...
Bertram Jacobus: but i wanted to ask myself before as well : why this outfit wol ? were you on a pyjama party ? :-)

--BELL--

Wol Euler: yes, they were party clothing :)
Wol Euler: the theme at the dance party last night was "night"
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. so i guessed the right thing ... :o)
Qt Core: how many were vampires or werewolf ?
Wol Euler: none actually, but it was a small party :)
Wol Euler: one dark wizard type, horse-head mask
Wol Euler: mostly just normal clothes, disappointingly
Qt Core: a bed outfit would have been an idea
Wol Euler smiles.
Qt Core: and something to e seen dancing!
Wol Euler grins.
Bertram Jacobus: it´s so lovely that you do these jobs here wol, since such a long time, being here ...
Wol Euler: well, I didn't have time or interest to get a new avatar for the party.
Wol Euler smiles modestly.
Wol Euler: thank you, berti
Bertram Jacobus: i´m so happy, knowing that i can come here when i feel to do so - and meet a friendly person ! a really big gift ! ...
Wol Euler: I don't see it as a burden or even an effort, since I was going to be here anyway.
Bertram Jacobus: but what does that mean : you are going to be here anyway ? why ?
Wol Euler: I always attended these sessions, so becoming guardian for them was no change in my routine
Wol Euler: and the effort of maintaining the wiki is minimal
Bertram Jacobus: hmmm - may be it is because my own disposition : i find it difficult, to keep such routines ...
Wol Euler smiles.
Bertram Jacobus: an wonderful ! :-)
Bertram Jacobus: and*
Bertram Jacobus: i did already a very nice meditation this morning ...
Wol Euler: now, see, that is a routine I have difficulty keeping :)
Bertram Jacobus: okay ...
Wol Euler grins.
Wol Euler: we each have different strengths and weaknesses
Bertram Jacobus: yes. but let me ask a question please : did we talk before about infiniteness ?
Qt Core: how boring if not
Wol Euler: very likely that we did, Berti, but I don'T remember a particular convesration
Bertram Jacobus: okay ... this aspect of being gives me so much freedom ! ....

--BELL--

Wol Euler smiles.
Bertram Jacobus: and i´m very astonished when people say they wouldn´t see or understand that aspect ... and most people say that ! i wonder much more how one can imagine finiteness, i mean related to a holistic perspective ...
Qt Core: while i don't meditate i think i feel something like the infinite while in bed, before sleeping but still awake when i notice my mind really not thinking about anything, but it escape immediatly just for the disturbance of noticing it
Wol Euler nods.
Bertram Jacobus: sry - have to go afk for short
Wol Euler: that sense of expanding or rather of losing the boundary
Qt Core: some other times (in almost the same situation) i almost find breathing a disturbance of that stillness (even if it seems that the breathing acts are far away from each other)
Wol Euler: and how easily that evaporates -- yes
Bertram Jacobus: i mean : infiniteness in a simple physical way, at first : which kind of boundry or border should that be, which limitates space ? (!) ...
Wol Euler nods.

--BELL--

Qt Core: about that: i find it funny how something incorporeal like fog limit my space, while seeing the very rocky mountains opens up my space
Wol Euler smiles.
Bertram Jacobus: mind space ? ... :-)
Wol Euler: perhaps seeing a big distance makes it easier to imagine a huge distance?
Wol Euler: the world does seem very small in fog, that is true
Wol Euler: one feels like one should take tiny steps to avoid bumping into or falling off of tthe edge
Qt Core: knowing i can reach the "natural limit" instead of the fog imposed one
Wol Euler nods.
Qt Core: (seeing those mountains a couple days ago after weeks of rain was really a nice thing)
Bertram Jacobus: you were in america qt ?
Qt Core: no, northern italy as always
Wol Euler: plenty of mountains there
Wol Euler: ah, he means "mountains of rock" not the Rocky Mountains :)
Bertram Jacobus: ah. not those rocky mountains ... ;o)
Wol Euler grins.
Qt Core: (some thought it would be mostly snow, luckily it wasn't, but in the mountains they got a few meters of it)
Qt Core: yes, rock as a very solid thing
Bertram Jacobus: yes. i see ...
Wol Euler: brb
Bertram Jacobus: i simply see and feel and experience the possibility of having an understanding of infinity - i think, because we are a part of that. and i find, that gives really freedom (!) ...

--BELL--

Wol Euler: how do you experience that, berti?
Wol Euler: (how does it feel or smell or taste or ...?)
Bertram Jacobus: i can understand it and with that i feel a big bundle of consequences ...
Qt Core: are there difference between infinite and something finite but well beyond our needs and/or perception ?
Bertram Jacobus: it gives freedom, because there so is no ultimate cause of things nor of "me" , only one aspect ...
Qt Core: and we maybe even don't know it is finite...
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t understand your question qt, sry, not sure, not totally ...
Qt Core: me neither ;-)
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: take the universe, then, is it really infinite or just very big?
Wol Euler: and if it is infinite, then how can it be said to be expanding?
Bertram Jacobus: and there are some difficult points as well : no personal life before and after this life, no gods ... but one can handle it - to me it´s ethics which gives me an anchor . for an ultimate goal so is not given as well, in an infinite universe ...
Wol Euler: perhaps it is merely "so big that it makes no difference whether it is infinite or not"
Qt Core: (like the surface of a ballon)
Bertram Jacobus: but the ballon is in space as well - space doesn´t end at the surface of the baloon ...
Bertram Jacobus: so many hints for infinity ! ... ;-)
Qt Core: starting from the country debit ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: nad it makes a difference for our conciousness, at least for mine ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. a really silly situation. the money system these days . ridiculous and not serious anymore ... :-)
Wol Euler nods.
Bertram Jacobus: but also that - can give freedom ! ...
Bertram Jacobus: although it makes hugeh problems for some, others, many ... and is worth helping and changing ...
Qt Core: yeah, i would feel free too if i could print money ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: sry for my typos pls ... :-/
Bertram Jacobus: at the moment, i have enough money (!)
Bertram Jacobus: and / but i don´t need to have much ...
Bertram Jacobus: how is the economy in italy these days qt ? do the people have enough to live ? ...

--BELL--

Qt Core: if i remember it right 1 in ten is now under poverty line, as usual, sigh, south is in a worse situation than north, several million people have renounced to search for a job
Wol Euler: :(
Bertram Jacobus: i see ... but isn´t it very important, how people, how we look at things and life ? ...
Bertram Jacobus: doesn´t that bring a change as well, may be even a very important one ? ...
Qt Core: one of the worse, more absurd situation is this: http://italychronicles.com/italians-in-limbo-hell/
Bertram Jacobus: my impression is : the world, mankind is rich enough, to produce what ever all people need. "only" the distrubution is still not good. but we can work on it (!) ...
Qt Core: (the litheral translation of esodati would be "people subject to an exodus"
Wol Euler nods.
Bertram Jacobus: hmmm - always so many good and bad news ! ...
Wol Euler: that makes sense (the name)
Wol Euler: what an awful situation
Wol Euler: and how *ridiculous* it is that there is no simple solution
Bertram Jacobus: my impression is : in countries like italy, at least, nobody must die from hunger (?) ...
Qt Core: son sure about the verb, bert, it should be should instead of can (maybe i'm a little pessimist) (and i like to play observing how things/idea change using can/should/have/must as the main verb)
Wol Euler: surely none of them retired without at least one piece of paper?
Qt Core: they have paper, but not the money kind of paper
Wol Euler: not yet!
Wol Euler: my point is that there can be no doubt about the situation of any single person, surely?
Wol Euler: so you take your piece of paper to the government and they fix the problem for you.
Wol Euler: how can that be difficult?
Qt Core: some of them weuld have to wait several years before having any
Wol Euler: that means to me only that the government doesn't care about solving the problem
Wol Euler: because they could have money tomorrow morning if the govt wished it
Wol Euler: I bet they have no difficulty calculating or paying the pensions of ex-politicians!
Qt Core: like if we didn't buy the F35 fighter planes, all in all we will spend a few tens of billions on them
Qt Core: it is not a bureaucratic issue, basically they change the rules on when people can get the money after they were thrown out the work force
Bertram Jacobus: i find it makes no sense to hit politicians, at lest not finally, because they should be supported to do the right decisions. that should help more. and the will of the masses gets more and more power because of the internet - great chances ! ...
Bertram Jacobus: and with these words i should leave now ...
Wol Euler smiles.
Bertram Jacobus: hehe - ty dears for the talk and meeting !
Wol Euler: bye berti, enjoy the day
Wol Euler: I hope to see you at 11pm?
Bertram Jacobus: "may all beings be happy please!" ... :-)
Qt Core: :-) bye Bert, have fun
Bertram Jacobus: ty again ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: ah yes. 11 pm - sure ;-)
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: what an awful mess, and how silly that it cannot be resolved
Qt Core: then there are things like the Electrolux that basically asked all its italian worker to accept a package that if translated in money term was: accept a 45/50% pay reduction or we will leave italy" they seem to have calmed a little by now
Wol Euler nods.

--BELL--

Qt Core: a few weeks ago i've read about a new trend, firm in need of a knowledge/immaterial service are asking it to joung people offering payment (if any) in we let people know about your great work
Wol Euler: yep
Wol Euler: "you don'T need food or rent!"
Wol Euler: "but I do need a fourth Mercedes"
Qt Core: "after all you don't "do" anything, right"
Wol Euler: it's outrageous, but very few people seem to be outraged
Wol Euler: I think it's the Stockholm Syndrome applied to an entire population
Wol Euler: everyone below the famous 1% is sitting very still and keeping their mouths shut in the hope that it will not happen to them
Qt Core: when in past years i read something saying that people born from the late '30 to the early '60 would probably be the peak of our culture/civilization/economy i didn't believe it...
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: I fear that was true, and what comes after us will be even harder
Qt Core: until we decide (that i find a stronger term then learn) to live with less we wouldn't solve anything
Qt Core: it should be a decide/accept/enjoy path
Wol Euler nods.
Qt Core: first thing we should ban most reality show/tv quiz and such ;-)
Wol Euler: and it would be nice if those taking money out of our pockets could do so too
Wol Euler: heheheh yes
Qt Core: lottery can stay, everyone should be able to dream
Wol Euler: :)
Qt Core: even if there are people betting the money needed for food
Wol Euler nods.
Qt Core: especially in Lotto when you can choose how much you bet as they have to win enough to get the money spent back and bang infinite loop
Wol Euler: if we don't stop them spending money on cigarettes or newspapers, neither of which can be eaten, I don't see how we could stop the lottery
Wol Euler: not on those grounds anyway
Qt Core: if they'll read them i'd personally give some money for the newspapers!
Wol Euler: heheheh
Wol Euler: true, we must encourage literacy

--BELL--

Qt Core: i need to go shaping up the day
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: take care, qt
Wol Euler: I hope all goes well for you and your family
Qt Core: you too, bye Wol