2014.02.09 19:00 - Tetralemma

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

Same Same, but Different

Chraeloos Resident: hi, may I join?
Calvino Rabeni: Certainly .. hello, chraeloos .. and Daedalus
Daedalus687 Resident: hi
Chraeloos Resident: thank you
Daedalus687 Resident: Hows the area been lately? I havn't been round
Calvino Rabeni: What's new in non-SL land ?
Daedalus687 Resident: Pervasive sameness
Chraeloos Resident: I'll be moving at the end of March...so been dealing a lot with that. How about you?
Calvino Rabeni: Moving a whole household? Boxes, furniture, the works?
Chraeloos Resident: probably, though we are debating downsizing
Calvino Rabeni: That's always a good opportunity. One time when I moved I got rid of 20 boxes of books.
Chraeloos Resident: it's amazing how much *stuff* you acquire
Chraeloos Resident: wow!
Chraeloos Resident: I've done similar but not on that scale
Chraeloos Resident: what's the topic here this week?
Chraeloos Resident: Hi Bombadail :)
bombadail Resident: ciao
Calvino Rabeni: Hey Bombadail, have you been here before? There's a chat recorder ... according to the rules people are supposed to be informed
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: and give an ok
bombadail Resident: no I have not been
bombadail Resident: not sure what is going on so someone want to tell
Calvino Rabeni: Ah ok, the chat at the pavilion here gets blogged to a web site .. open to all
Calvino Rabeni: this is a discussion area for a group called Play as Beiing
bombadail Resident: I'll be extra charming then
Calvino Rabeni: make that "being"
Chraeloos Resident chuckles
Calvino Rabeni: Chraeloos was asking if there was a topic suggested .. I don't know
Calvino Rabeni: but it can be interesting to propose one
Calvino Rabeni: or just see what happens with small talk
bombadail Resident: oh so it's like an open topic discussion?
Calvino Rabeni: yes, sort of .. the idea is to make it reflective, taking into account experience in a pretty open way
Calvino Rabeni: rather than following a debate format
Calvino Rabeni: discovery in the moment, based on mindfulness
bombadail Resident: yeah...well I already know everything so ask away :)
Calvino Rabeni: really
Daedalus687 Resident: lol
Calvino Rabeni: that's awesome
Calvino Rabeni: i think ..
Daedalus687 Resident: How much can your I know?
Calvino Rabeni: hmm, i don't think I'd like to be that way .. since I like to discover things
Chraeloos Resident: what is everything?
bombadail Resident: well knowing I know nothing is the starting point of course...which makes me know everything
Calvino Rabeni: in the fullness of time
Chraeloos Resident: Daedalus, whose I?
Calvino Rabeni: I generally find it quite difficult to look myself in the I
Chraeloos Resident nods at Calvino
Daedalus687 Resident: Try to speak without using it as a constant referent. It is difficult
Daedalus687 Resident: Without attributing action to an agent
Chraeloos Resident: interesting, I hosted a discussion on breathing today. Just sitting and noticing your breath, and a few people IMed me saying they were so stressed and frightened when they did that they they were actually breaking down mentally and had to leave...speaking of looking the I in the face.
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe impossible.
Chraeloos Resident: HI Anna :)
Daedalus687 Resident: Hola
pastela Resident: hello all :)
Chraeloos Resident: Daedalus, not sure the english language is built that way, even
Daedalus687 Resident: In the moment of articulation, knowledge is veiled..in a way
Daedalus687 Resident: or at least displaced
Daedalus687 Resident: assuming a place to be displaced to
Calvino Rabeni: nods to Chraeloos story .. looking inside sometimes brings a harsh gaze directed where its usually not received or wanted
Daedalus687 Resident: Thats why the bell is helpful
Daedalus687 Resident: Most people i've seen at the 7 PM in a long time
Calvino Rabeni: nods last few weeks it was no one but I
Daedalus687 Resident: yea, sry, I would have joined you
bombadail Resident: who believes in an intact consciousness that retains it's sense of self after death
Calvino Rabeni: not I, I don't even have that in Life :)
--BELL--

pastela Resident: my opinion is that it does not
bombadail Resident: I would vote no also
bombadail Resident: seems though that most traditions say there is one
bombadail Resident: and people swear by it after near death experiences it seems too
bombadail Resident: why is that?
bombadail Resident: what's the bell for?
Daedalus687 Resident: Silience
Daedalus687 Resident: silence*
Chraeloos Resident: bombadail, not sure
Daedalus687 Resident: dropping its called
Chraeloos Resident: every 15 minutes there is 90 seconds ofsilense
Chraeloos Resident: wow, sorry distracted rl on that last bit haha
Daedalus687 Resident: [19:29] bombadail: who believes in an intact consciousness that retains it's sense of self after death .........Who is the one who believes? how does a self retain a sense?
Daedalus687 Resident: Is No death a distinct possibility?
Chraeloos Resident: Daedalus, nice questions
bombadail Resident: just saying most spiritually minded people that I talk to seem to want to believe in a continuation...
pastela Resident: Christianity believes in a heaven, as well as other religions with other terms, that you go to some place as you after death... thats how I took the question?
Chraeloos Resident: bombadail, physically we do, our cells will eventually break down and get reabsorbed back into the earth, no?
Daedalus687 Resident: If you looked casually at your 'senses', where is it comming from? is coming from even appropriate?
Chraeloos Resident nods at Daedalus
bombadail Resident: well but i am saying an intact consciousness ...often people imagine their essence as independent of the body ..so it seems to be popular
Daedalus687 Resident: I see
Chraeloos Resident: what do you think Bombadail?
Daedalus687 Resident: brb
bombadail Resident: well unless life is like a video game seems that death an end
bombadail Resident: who votes we are in a matrix right now playing a game
Daedalus687 Resident: SL we are
Chraeloos Resident: lol
Chraeloos Resident: are we sims?
bombadail Resident: right so is RL the same?
Daedalus687 Resident: No and Yes
Chraeloos Resident: we are obviously restricted by obvious and no-so-obvious boundaries, no?
Chraeloos Resident: I mean, I haven't seen anyone spontaneously grow wings and fly away
Daedalus687 Resident: Dependent and independent of your mind
Chraeloos Resident nods
bombadail Resident: well there are boundaries in SL too just different ones
Daedalus687 Resident: I have a tetralemma if you liked to head it
Daedalus687 Resident: hear*
Chraeloos Resident: what is a tetralemma?
bombadail Resident: is there a vaccine for that
Daedalus687 Resident: Proposition consisting of 4 parts
Daedalus687 Resident: tetra= 4
Daedalus687 Resident: lemma='problem'
Calvino Rabeni: are the 4 parts related formally?
bombadail Resident: he married 4 sisters
Daedalus687 Resident: Im not sure
Chraeloos Resident: lol, lets hear it Daedalus
bombadail Resident: badum bum
Daedalus687 Resident:

Do we want:

1.Answers to our questions?
2.Questions for our questions?
3. Questions for our answers?
4. Answers to our answers?

and also..which one can we speak of most?

Chraeloos Resident: hm, not sure about 4, since I'm not sure there are answer we can convey in any true-to-form sense.
--BELL--

Daedalus687 Resident: another: 1. What is? 2. What is not? 3. What both is and is not? 4. What neither is nor is not?
bombadail Resident: what's the point of these questions for you
Daedalus687 Resident: Would that help you?
bombadail Resident: seems like just a word game
Chraeloos Resident: seems more like a koan to me
Daedalus687 Resident: Well, just passing thoughts along, thats all
Calvino Rabeni: Language games ask to be played, but often go unfulfulled
Calvino Rabeni: I wonder why they are popular, like a dress in the wardrobe that doesn't get put on, but is nice to have around
Daedalus687 Resident: Language is like a vehicle which we can travel around endlessly and not arrive anywhere. not my words
pastela Resident: im new here so I just want to check - we can just ask anything / open discussion?
Calvino Rabeni: yes, ..basically true, Anna
bombadail Resident: no I am self proclaimed dictator...that will cost you 50L
pastela Resident: xD
Calvino Rabeni: but if you haven't been here before, .. the discussion gets auto-blogged onto a web site for the group
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes that means people will think twice about really personal material
Daedalus687 Resident: What would you have us talk about calvino?
bombadail Resident: Well anna do I have to give you 50L for the quesiton now?
Calvino Rabeni: Well we could fill out the first tetralemma with an example
Calvino Rabeni: just an idea
pastela Resident: Well I was toying with the ides of asking a kind of funny question to a group like this... not sure if you guys have answers, but I will ask anyways as still curious :) ... If you had to pick one moment in your life so far that you feel defined you most what would it be?
Calvino Rabeni: sounds good
Chraeloos Resident: Anna - not sure I can answer that honestly lol. There are so many
Calvino Rabeni: It
pastela Resident: it is not an easy question - just wanted to try it out :)
Chraeloos Resident: I feel like picking one over another would invalidate the point lol
Calvino Rabeni: is a kind of dare question, in a way ...;
Chraeloos Resident nods at Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: im not sure I am definable, but it might "pinch" to try :)
pastela Resident: how is it a dare, I am sorry I don't understand that >.<<br/> bombadail Resident: don't have an answer to that either...but your question assumes a critical thing....that someone has defined themselves...is that possible? and if so in what terms
Chraeloos Resident: good point Bombadail
Calvino Rabeni: but it also makes me think, sometimes people have ready made answers, because they have worked at the question in a kind of "who am i
Calvino Rabeni: sort of way
bombadail Resident: exactly
pastela Resident: I never assumed one can define them self, that is near impossible
bombadail Resident: I don't think like that
Daedalus687 Resident: Wheres the bell!?
Daedalus687 Resident: lolz
pastela Resident: It is just you feel something changed you to something you feel is more like you now than before... I guess it is a bit impossible - sorry!
bombadail Resident: is there one for you anna?
pastela Resident: yes, thats why I thought of the question in the first place =p wondered if others had something similar
Calvino Rabeni: well if the question could be opened up to concepts and images, rather than moments, it might give more latitude .. I'm terrible at time :)
Calvino Rabeni: That is a good hint, Anna
bombadail Resident: generally i'd suggest it's the moment a person realizes they have creative potential
Chraeloos Resident: Anna, would you like to share yours?
Chraeloos Resident: Calvino, concepts and images?
Chraeloos Resident: such as?
pastela Resident: yes bombadail, that is a big one, a moment of realization of some sort, when I formulate the question in my mind that is the only answers I can think of :P
pastela Resident: may show close minded on my part though xD
Calvino Rabeni: something like the intersecting planes that bomba was wearing when first appearing
Chraeloos Resident: Anna, I expereinced that too when you first posed the question
Chraeloos Resident: Calvino, so a kind of mandala?
Calvino Rabeni: showing three ways of dividing the world, but from a reference point within the body, that turns and redeploys with movement
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: as an illustration: http://malouffsaandpblog.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/body-planes.jpg
Chraeloos Resident: I'd like to work with that a bit sometime Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: nods to Chraeloos
bombadail Resident: I'd also suggest that human culture conditions out of most people this creative power...and awakening is when they realize they have had it all along and are now finally bold enough to do something about it
Chraeloos Resident: a kind of acceptance, bombadail?
Daedalus687 Resident: Ya'll have a good night. Peace
Chraeloos Resident: take care Daedalus :)
pastela Resident: night :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good night Daedalus687
Chraeloos Resident: thanks for the good questions and the tetralemma's
bombadail Resident: just shedding illusion I think
Calvino Rabeni: yes they were good ones
Daedalus687 Resident: Ill be round
Calvino Rabeni: ok
Calvino Rabeni: So that idea .. a story about the increase in autonomy for an individual human being
Calvino Rabeni: ?
bombadail Resident: more that culture disempowers you ...makes you a follower...today a consumer
Calvino Rabeni: creative freedom, the ability to self-define
Calvino Rabeni: nods, each story has two sides, a story of bondage is a story of potential or lost freedom
bombadail Resident: as the story goes ...listen to the experts is the typical refrain
Chraeloos Resident: brb a moment
Calvino Rabeni: often the rhetorical point involves resistance or liberation
Calvino Rabeni: I wonder is the consumer theme getting stronger, weaker, or just changing in our current cultural evolution
bombadail Resident: yeah...there usually is some catalyst as anna was suggesting
Chraeloos Resident: okay back
pastela Resident: brb I am going to tp and tp back :) have to unbox something quickly
Chraeloos Resident: okay take your time Anna :)
bombadail Resident: well what played out differently in the times of Monarchy...is now consumerism sorta
Calvino Rabeni: what's outside of consumerism, as a mind-set?
pastela Resident: 's current display-name is "Anna Pastela".
Chraeloos Resident: wb Anna
pastela Resident: thank you :)
Calvino Rabeni: I'd say the thing-to-consume has shifted over time, from material Stuff, to information, to experience, to the opportunity to produce
bombadail Resident: not sure I follow there are many types of cultures and group think with those ...today we have consumerism as one
Calvino Rabeni: people are still fascinated with the idea of owning the means to production
Calvino Rabeni: on the unlimited and pretty inexpensive plane of creative expression
bombadail Resident: well success generally seems to be about stuff these days
Calvino Rabeni: but what will happen when they discover that that won't be enough of a liberation or lead to transformative epiphanies?
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: stuff used to be pretty material, but the matter economy couldn't sustain it .. it was threatened enough as is, so it got transferred to the plane of information, then ideas, and the products became tools to sell people opportunity to experience themselves and each other again
Calvino Rabeni: (oops .. bell)
bombadail Resident: nice avi Anna
pastela Resident: thanks ^^
Calvino Rabeni: its hard to "drop" a partly constructed paragraph when that bell goes off :)
bombadail Resident: Yeah that's a possible progression Calvino
Chraeloos Resident: sorry, crashed
Calvino Rabeni: nods, that's really retro, Anna, I like it
pastela Resident: yay old school :P
Chraeloos Resident: what was retro? lol
Calvino Rabeni: the stick figure avi
Chraeloos Resident blinks and rubs her eyes as everything loads
Chraeloos Resident: oh! neat, I like it!
Calvino Rabeni: oh .. yes .. ok
pastela Resident: okay three compliments - now I want to change back xD can't take compliments!
Chraeloos Resident: lol
bombadail Resident: okay everyone compliment me then to balance it out
bombadail Resident: lol
pastela Resident: fish are scary! xD
Chraeloos Resident: bomb, I actually do really like your avi haha it's so original
pastela Resident: but cool avi if ignore fish =p
bombadail Resident: Chrae you look lovely and peaceful
Chraeloos Resident: Clavino, you look thoughtful and you have an awesome @ symbol above your head that I can't figure out
Chraeloos Resident: there, Anna, better?
Chraeloos Resident: haha
Calvino Rabeni: thanks Chrae
pastela Resident: ^^
bombadail Resident: Calvino...nice dragon on your shirt and mystical necklace too and agree thoughtful too...tai chi master
Chraeloos Resident: yeah, tai chi master!
bombadail Resident: but really anna you are way coolest of us all :P
Chraeloos Resident: especially now
Calvino Rabeni: bit of a medicine wheel
pastela Resident: there is no anna, only tree
Chraeloos Resident tilts her head way back to see the big tree
pastela Resident: okay ill stop now xD
Calvino Rabeni: does the tree move?
Chraeloos Resident: it's swaying
Chraeloos Resident: lol!
Chraeloos Resident: I definitley want to host a discussino as a tree
Chraeloos Resident: discussion, even
pastela Resident: it is a freebie on marketplace ^^ do it!
bombadail Resident: ha I have a free tree avi from somewhere too might be the same
Chraeloos Resident: sweet haha thanks!
Calvino Rabeni: yes, no end of organic metaphors would be easily available
Calvino Rabeni: the discussion could really get to the root of things, branch out, then bear fruit and ripen
bombadail Resident: lol
Chraeloos Resident: lol Calvino!
pastela Resident giggles
Calvino Rabeni: Everyone could come as a different kind of tree .. except one person as a little bird
pastela Resident: oh now I want a bird avatar >.< rl name is a bird so it suits :P
Chraeloos Resident: aw that would be so neat
Calvino Rabeni: nods
pastela Resident: I really apologize for turning the discussion though!
bombadail Resident: you mom called you a dodo? :P
Calvino Rabeni: it would be fun to be a kookaburra
pastela Resident: >.<
Chraeloos Resident chuckles
Chraeloos Resident: oh, you guys
Calvino Rabeni: as they have such a krazy laff
Chraeloos Resident: and no problem Anna :)
Chraeloos Resident: okay, I should probably head out. Thank you Calvino, Anna, Bomb, it was great :) have a great week everyone take good care

--BELL--

bombadail Resident: Q: Why did the chicken cross the playground? A: To get to the other slide!
Calvino Rabeni: thats ok Anna, I somewhat doubt we even rmember the discussion, after all this time :)
Calvino Rabeni: good one, bombadiai
Calvino Rabeni: And I will take the opportunity to disappear while this red circle of silence is still around us
bombadail Resident: Q: What does a cat call a hummingbird? A: Fast food.
Calvino Rabeni: good night all, water the root, catch that fish, and so on
pastela Resident: :P good night!
bombadail Resident: night
pastela Resident: okay - want to see my new arrangement? xD
pastela Resident: im tping home!