The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Zon!
Zon Kwan: hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Trying to remember: Was it you who recommended Thotica to me?
Zon Kwan: hm i am not sure
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I attended my first session there today.
Bruce Mowbray: And I am mightily impressed with that group!

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: So, if it was you who recommended it, THANKS!
Zon Kwan: what did they discuss?
Bruce Mowbray: Today the topic was ....
Bruce Mowbray: Just a sec.
Zon Kwan: hi Catrina
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Cat!
Bruce Mowbray: I think the topic was "affordings" or "affordances."
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi there Bruce and Zon :)
Zon Kwan: what does that mean exactly?
Bruce Mowbray: Well, an "affording" is something that makes things usable -- or more practical... -- or "better."

Bruce Mowbray: Like the handle on a teapot.
Bruce Mowbray: But our discussion seemed to focus on whether "affordings" were unique to animals....
Bruce Mowbray: so, gravity is NOT an affording of the waterfall, or the avalanche, as it were.
Zon Kwan: i thought it was giving
Bruce Mowbray: There are several different connotations of the word....
Bruce Mowbray: Simulat (leader of the discussion) said that "affordings" are something that only animals can have....
Zon Kwan: so like helping?
Bruce Mowbray: So, I asked if the hexagon were an affording for bees.
Bruce Mowbray: (beehives, etc.)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, 'helping' in a pragmatic sense.
Bruce Mowbray: That was a large part of the discussion today, actually.
Bruce Mowbray: I also asked if the mathematical spiral was an 'affording' for flowers...
Bruce Mowbray: sunflowers, daisies, etc.
limited area....
Bruce Mowbray: through evolving the spiral as an "affording."
Zon Kwan: is the idea of intention involved?
Bruce Mowbray: It surely seems to be for humans, yes.
Bruce Mowbray: But that was another issue, of course.
Bruce Mowbray: Intention vs. instinct....
Zon Kwan: don't still see the difference between laws of nature and affording?
Bruce Mowbray: I have just given you both an image that my typist made this morning....
Bruce Mowbray: (to illustrate the point about spirals and seeds in flowers.)

Catrinamonblue Resident: lovely :)
Bruce Mowbray: TY!
Zon Kwan: thx its beautiful
Bruce Mowbray: Well, trust me on this: My typist is NO mathematician!
Bruce Mowbray: Flowers are far better at math than he is....
Bruce Mowbray: but my point in our Thotica discussion was.....
Bruce Mowbray: Is evolution geared to provide us with "affordings"?
Bruce Mowbray: or is Nature simply blind...
Bruce Mowbray: and through random chance variations,
Bruce Mowbray: eventually finds the maximum "affording" for the occasion.  Thus, hexagonal beehives and spiral seed areas?
Zon Kwan: it is not blind to me
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
Zon Kwan: millions of monkeys typing cannot produce Shakepeare's play
Bruce Mowbray: Well, the theory goes that if there were an infinite number of monkeys, typewriters, and time....
Zon Kwan: still i don't think so
Bruce Mowbray: So, you feel that Nature has foresight and intention?
Bruce Mowbray: (and perhaps even "soul" of some kind?)
Zon Kwan: yes we have and we are part of nature
Zon Kwan: how can we have them if nature does not?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, where else could we be.... but I do not mean to be facetious.
Bruce Mowbray: We cannot escape nature, within or without.
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Qt!
Qt Core: Hi all!
Zon Kwan: hi Qt
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Qt
Bruce Mowbray: So, please say more about nature's intentionality, Zon.
Bruce Mowbray: (if you will.)
Zon Kwan: well all one needs to do is look around and see
Zon Kwan: sorry must leave
Zon Kwan: waves
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Zon :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Zon.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I think one philosophical approach with this is to ask whether there is something inherent in "nature" that would make "affordings" a tendency of being itself....
Bruce Mowbray: In that case, nature (the cosmos itself) would seem to be gracious.....
Catrinamonblue Resident: it always is I think
Bruce Mowbray: seeming to be inclined to "afford" its emergent creations with an edge....
Bruce Mowbray listens for more.....
Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't have more, most of what you were talking about went right over my head :)
Bruce Mowbray: well, surely it is over my head as well!
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm a here-and-now person, not very deep, just the usual splash of selfishness
Bruce Mowbray: But --- my life's experience seems to indicate that nature IS gracious.
Bruce Mowbray: There's no way I could have made it this far without the graciousness - and forgiveness - of nature.
Bruce Mowbray: Is that built-in, do you think?
Catrinamonblue Resident: smiles.... me too Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I think it is built in, part of the very fabric of being
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Catrinamonblue Resident: how else could we move from day to day without being able to forgive those who hurt us?
Bruce Mowbray: Our topic in the Theotica group today was "Affordances."  and we were talking about whether these "affordances" were built-into the framework of being -itself.
Catrinamonblue Resident: and how could others move on from the hurt we inflict upon them
Bruce Mowbray: Bruce Mowbray listens eagerly for more, if that's appropriate....
Catrinamonblue Resident: is forgiveness an afforance I wonder
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I believe it is.
Bruce Mowbray: It "affords" us the ability to move on with life...
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray: and it affords those we forgive to drop their grievances about us.
Bruce Mowbray: Nature forgives us continuously.  and so, we move on, one moment to the next, one day to the next.
Catrinamonblue Resident: ah but for me forgivingness is about myself letting go, it makes no difference whether the other person drops their grievance or not
Bruce Mowbray: Bruce Mowbray: Indeed, Cat.
Bruce Mowbray: Forgiveness is something we do for ourselves, no doubt about it.
Qt Core: i'm more of the opinion that nature just is, it doesn't even ignore us
Bruce Mowbray: but it might also "afford" the other person something.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, Qt, that's the point I was raising at the Theotica group today.
Catrinamonblue Resident: listens
Bruce Mowbray: but with the added point that Darwinian evolution - being "blind" and operating solely through random mutations....
Bruce Mowbray: nonetheless is able to find maximum "affordances"...
Bruce Mowbray: such as the maximum number of seeds in the minimum area allotted for them (i.e. the spiral pattern evolved for seeds - in multiple species).
Qt Core: it is just that the deciding factor is survival and reproduction and consuming less leads to both
Bruce Mowbray: This leads some to believe that a "god" (some providential source and director) is in charge.....
Qt Core: (thinking about genetic algorithms)
Bruce Mowbray: YES!
Bruce Mowbray: I love to write genetic algorithms.
Bruce Mowbray: although they can be a bit scary, too.
Qt Core: (for the not IT obsessed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm)
Bruce Mowbray wonders how to include compassion in a genetic algorithm....
Qt Core: add a parameter counting how many get hurt and use the inverse as the factor
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. Sounds good!
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejxfTy4lI6I
Bruce Mowbray: However, genetic algorithms are goal-oriented.... Is Nature goal-oriented. Darwin said "NO!"
Qt Core: what i like about those is that they can be used to "solve" problems that we don't know how to get the exact solution to, but just how to compare two proposed solutions

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree totally, Qt. It amazes me how a computer programs can not only "learn," but it can also explore..... and "find" solutions that their human programmers had not even thought of yet.
Qt Core: are we sure ? Maybe we don't know yet ;-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: to survive is a goal I would think, nature wants to survive, each generation to the next
Bruce Mowbray: You are referring to a "life force," Cat?  The "Elan vital"?
Qt Core: on some level if we enlarge from nature as we see to the earth to the universe that goal does not make sense...
Bruce Mowbray listens.....
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm not sure Bruce :) I'm just throwing out there the thoughts that cross my mind, to see how they fit or not with others' thoughts
Bruce Mowbray: so, is this indeed a LIFE force.... known only to living things?
Qt Core: we haven't seen (yet) that surviving goal anywhere else
Catrinamonblue Resident: ok :)
Bruce Mowbray: In today's discussion at Thotica, the leader (Simulat) said that "affordings" were only for animals (including humans.)
Bruce Mowbray: not for waterfalls and the like
Bruce Mowbray: (not even for flowers.)
Qt Core: and plants too
Bruce Mowbray: YES!
Qt Core: no ?
Bruce Mowbray: That is exactly what I said!
Qt Core: that's weird
Bruce Mowbray: and that's when I brought out the graphic of the spiral.
Bruce Mowbray: Plants are really experts at finding maximum affordings, I think.
Qt Core: just out of my mind i would think that plants would be more apt/in need of it
Bruce Mowbray: root systems, branches, knowing when to drop their leaves in the fall... etc.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I agree, Qt.
Bruce Mowbray: so, shall we just say "all living things," then?
Qt Core: we have scarily similar thoughts today, Bruce ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: I mean, even bacteria are finding their own affordings, it seems to me.
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Bruce Mowbray looks scared!
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Bruce Mowbray: So, do humans have an advantage because they also have conscious intention?
Bruce Mowbray: or is that a disadvantage....?
Bruce Mowbray: (to finding their affordings, I mean.)
Qt Core: a disadvantage, on a pure survival level based on our own internal resources
Bruce Mowbray: Are humans too short-sighted to know what's good for them in the long run?
Catrinamonblue Resident: how has history shown it? In the past we have been very short sighted as to the damage we cause so probably
Bruce Mowbray wonders how deep his "internal resources" go.
Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Cat on that.
Bruce Mowbray: Have you noticed that nature wastes everything -- and yet wastes nothing at all?
Bruce Mowbray: Millions of seeds wasted in every generation.
Catrinamonblue Resident: nature recycles everything
Qt Core: (we can't be too harsh to humans that didn't know enough; at the time it seemed a good idea)
Bruce Mowbray: Yet, every seed becomes some sort of nutrient... for the next generation.
Bruce Mowbray: Amazing stuff!
Bruce Mowbray: Well, look before you leap?
Bruce Mowbray: The question for me is: Where to look? How deep to look? What to look for?
Bruce Mowbray: What seems like a good idea today might seem like a bad idea if we looked further into it.
Qt Core: sometimes you have to jump before some for of ebemy reach you from beyond
Bruce Mowbray: "ebemy"?
Qt Core: *enemy (like famine)
Bruce Mowbray: enemy, got it.
Bruce Mowbray: Wonders how nature sorts out the 'friends' from the 'enemies.'
Qt Core: does it have to ?
Bruce Mowbray: and where/how "graciousness" comes into that equation.
Catrinamonblue Resident: makes them shake hands and make up :) as my mother did with my sister and I
Bruce Mowbray: It does [have to] if nature is "gracious."
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!

Bruce Mowbray: The lion will lie down with the lamb.

--BELL--

 
Qt Core: (but the lamb would sleep very little...
Qt Core: maybe we find nature gracious as we are a product of nature at this level of evolution, we obviously are adapted to it
Bruce Mowbray: Wonderful point, Qt.
Bruce Mowbray: Our eyes, for example, are products of our situation...
Bruce Mowbray: they evolved to "see" certain wavelengths of light....
Bruce Mowbray: just exactly those wavelengths that best suit our predicament.
Qt Core: again, i was going to say something about our adaptation to see greens under our sun light...
Bruce Mowbray: and in that sense, nature is surely gracious!
Bruce Mowbray listens for more from Qt.
Bruce Mowbray: (let alone the other senses which have evolved to suit our situation: smell, hearing, taste....)
Qt Core: not a lot to tell, as a lot of our food were green or hanging down green trees our eyes are good at seeing it
Bruce Mowbray: Yes.
Bruce Mowbray: but look out for the poison ivy!
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Qt Core: others animals like pure carnivores aren't made that way
Bruce Mowbray: Pure carnivores don't see green?
Bruce Mowbray: I know they see movement....
Bruce Mowbray: I've watched snakes....
Bruce Mowbray: and they are absolutely amazing, although a bit scary.
Bruce Mowbray: They sense movement keenly.
Bruce Mowbray: I suppose other carnivores do also.
Bruce Mowbray wonders whether his "reptilian brain" still functions.
Qt Core: yes, but as prey aren't usually green but of many other colors isn't really that important
Bruce Mowbray: but the movement is important.....
Qt Core: movement, and speaking about snakes' thermo/infrared sensitivity is
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes!  also size, maybe.
Bruce Mowbray: Bruce Mowbray: You know, one thing that really amazes me is "convergence."
Bruce Mowbray: How various species not directly related to each other can evolve the same organs -- eyes, ears, sonar, etc.
Bruce Mowbray: There are several species that can do echo-location, for example, not just bats.
Qt Core: yes, makes you wonder if the solution "chosen" by different species to solve the same problem is really the best, then
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.
Qt Core: (in a good way i mean)
Bruce Mowbray: Well, if it enables them to pass their genes on to another generation, then I suppose it is "best."
Bruce Mowbray: Every "best" is but a short-lived thing, after all.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Qt Core: then it make you wonder if they ended up at a "local maximum" and if going a little further there would be a overly better solution like telepathy ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: (Might be one reason that some human relationships don't last longer than they do... And that might be a GOOD thing... even though it also brings pain.)
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray ponders "local maxima."
Catrinamonblue Resident: we grow and change at different rates perhaps
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed, we do.
Bruce Mowbray: It's a complex endeavor - human relationships. for sure!
Catrinamonblue Resident: some relationships can't survive such changes sometimes
Bruce Mowbray: We grow at different rates, on different levels, to achieve different needs, different desires...
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Bruce Mowbray: How on earth does it ever come together, anyway?
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Catrinamonblue Resident: magic ;)
Qt Core: and in different directions too!
Bruce Mowbray feels that he now understands better why his typist is a hermit.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, in different directions, to be sure.
Bruce Mowbray wonders where the "affordances' come into human relationships.
Bruce Mowbray: I must be going now.
Bruce Mowbray: THANKS, Cat and Qt!
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bruce :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I too must be off
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks you both!
Qt Core: bye Bruce, have fun
Qt Core: and bye Cat too

--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Qt :)