2012.03.19 13:00 - "Act as if"

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind, taking over randomly as there seemed to be no guardian in the pavilion. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

Storm Nordwind: Hi Raffi :)
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Storm
Storm Nordwind: How are you? Any burning discussion topics?
Raffila Millgrove: I'm great.

Patronage.

Raffila Millgrove: well i have some questions i could ask you, if you would be ok with that?
Storm Nordwind: Of course. Can't promise I'll give you satisfactory answers, but i can try!
Raffila Millgrove: one day you said here. something to effect that 'ole one eye" kicked you out. (or similiar) I wondered, now that i know you meant Odin and were speakng of old gods.. what happened. What changed for you?
Storm Nordwind: Ah yes. Odin was one of my patron deities for many years. He didn't kick me out. I'd just had enough of the relationship.
Raffila Millgrove: yes. why was that?
Raffila Millgrove: what as "had enough" and what happened.
Raffila Millgrove: what happen next.. after you "had enough".
Storm Nordwind: Patronage is not what many people think it is. It isn't having awe or respect for a being or doing rites for them...
Storm Nordwind: Patronage is a two way deal: there has to be something in it for both parties.
Storm Nordwind: And I felt I wasn't getting sufficient back any more. :)
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: /Odin is a seeker for knowledge. As much as possible. Quantity and quality but not necessarily the wisdom to apply it. I learned a lot with him but I outgrew it.
Raffila Millgrove: I didn't know you could adopt an old norse god as a "patron". i was a patron for an artist here in sl... once. So i am familiar with that relationship beween two humans... but... what gave you the inspiration in the first place--to attempt this relationship with a god? you seem to be able to "hear" these gods. You told me you had a relationship with a male/female buddhist diety one day.
Storm Nordwind: It was common to have such close relationships with deities when the old pagan religions were widespread. It was always a two way thing.
Storm Nordwind: And with modern people following the old gods, some decided to do things in the old ways.

Runes.

Storm Nordwind: My original interest was the study of runes.
Storm Nordwind: I found I needed to study the peoples who used runes to understand them fully.
Storm Nordwind: And that meant understanding their religions.
Storm Nordwind: And that in turn meant forming relationships with their deities.
Raffila Millgrove: ah. because of course in modern time... many US people have very personal relationshps with Jesus, but the word "patron" never is mentioned. My I ask why you use that word. Is it written somewhere as you studied paganism?
Raffila Millgrove: also.. are runes. the way the old gods communicated to their followers?
Storm Nordwind: It's a common convention in reconstructed pagan religions. It involves a negotiated deal, much as patronage would between humans.
Storm Nordwind: Runes weren't the way gods communicated with humans, no.
Raffila Millgrove: wow. that is amazing to me. ty for teling me that. and would they communicate to you thru the runes? send messages?
Raffila Millgrove: no?
Raffila Millgrove: oh. how did runes fit in?
Storm Nordwind: OK one thing at a time! ;-)
Storm Nordwind: Runes first...
Storm Nordwind: Runes were a writing system that were also used for magic.
Storm Nordwind: The people that used runes were heathen, i.e. follwed the northern European Germanic pagan gods
Storm Nordwind: People have used them in recent decades (since 1970) for divination, but that's a modern practice
Raffila Millgrove: oh.. it's new! wow.. didn't know that. thought that was old.
Storm Nordwind: There's no historical evidence for their being used for divination. But plenty for their being used for magic.

Divination.

Storm Nordwind: But I've studied divination in detail since 1973 - all sorts - so looking at runes for that reason attracted me, even though I discovered it was a modern practice.
Raffila Millgrove: so they weren't originally tools for oracles. used in magic instead. mmm.. So was your origianl intersete in study of runes--part of academic studies? or a personal interest.
Raffila Millgrove: +original interest
Storm Nordwind: I practised divination of all sorts. Starting with the I Ching.
Raffila Millgrove: me too actually. around the same time as you...
Raffila Millgrove: first the I Ching and then Tarot.
Storm Nordwind: I guess I was trying to communicate with "something". But it led to studying ways of more direct conversing.
Storm Nordwind: Yes me too!
Storm Nordwind: My favorite Tarot is one created in that era - Morgan's Tarot. very humorous but profound
Raffila Millgrove: my youngest daughter had affinity/huge attraction to Tarot. I bought her cards made for children... very sweet and beautiful cards becuase my teacher said tarot was not appropriate for a child. she loved to use her children's cards. i found them rather amazing myself.
Storm Nordwind: Morgans: No suits. No ranks. No major or minor arcana. 88 cards instead of 78
Storm Nordwind: I have a Mrggan Tarot viewer here in SL.
Raffila Millgrove: oh?
Storm Nordwind: It's on my land to the west, in the tall pagoda.
Raffila Millgrove makes a note to ask her daughter where are the children's cards.. would love to look at them again. So beautifully illustrated.
Raffila Millgrove: oh i have to go look at Morgan.
Storm Nordwind: So... I may have lost track of your questions! Please refresh my memory. :)
Raffila Millgrove: we covered ok.
Storm Nordwind: http://www.sleepbot.com/morgan/
Raffila Millgrove: altho you didn't say if your interest was... based in academic study.. professionally--or was more personal.
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Totally personal.
Raffila Millgrove: about the runes etc.. i end up thinking .. was personal.. part of overall study of divination. trye?
Raffila Millgrove: yes. ok

Healing.

Storm Nordwind: It comes down to trying to find the best ways to help people. It was another way, as was healing before it.
Raffila Millgrove: oh you study healing as well? i was only briefly in that.. i .. felt i had no teacher to help.. no path exaclty to follow.. i move away from.. that area.
Storm Nordwind: But in the end, more was demanded of me by Odin, so I dropped heathenry altogether. And after several months, I was found by Kuan Yin.
Storm Nordwind: I had an odd intro to healing!
Raffila Millgrove: oh? tell me please.
Storm Nordwind: I had a Jewish friend at university who was a healer. He used to "just know" where to put his healing hands on people because he would feel where to do it...
Storm Nordwind: Which enabled me to suspend disbelief...
Storm Nordwind: And then one evening, at a party...
Storm Nordwind: I was sitting next to a young woman who was playing a guitar...
Storm Nordwind: and I suddenly felt a strong pain in my knee which I somehow knew was not mine! ...
Storm Nordwind: So I asked the girl whether she had a pain in HER knee, and she did.
Storm Nordwind: So I thought "If I can do the first stage of this healing thing, I wonder if I can do the second stage"
Storm Nordwind: And I asked her "Do you mind if I put my hand on your knee?"
Storm Nordwind: !!!!
Storm Nordwind: Well in those days, she didn't bat an eyelid and said "OK" and went back to playing the guitar
Storm Nordwind: So I put my hand on her knee, and her pain of several days disappeared.
Storm Nordwind: Thereafter, I sought teachers so that I could know what I was doing!
Raffila Millgrove nods.
Raffila Millgrove: do you still.. practice?
Storm Nordwind: Only for friends and family. I used to do so regularly with a group in England, but not now.

Shawls and power.

Raffila Millgrove: shall i say my experience?
Storm Nordwind: I'd be delighted to give my fingers a rest! :)
Storm Nordwind: (Even more delighted to hear!)
Raffila Millgrove: i discovered that.. i could imbue fabric with powers.. of healing and protection. Usually a scarf.. a shawl.. a blanket. I can still do it. But.. i never met any teacher for these type of indirect--imbue with power.. And it makes me nervous because I can also work evil. So... i only do the power.. inbue... protection thing. With few trusted family members etc. I don't do it otherwise. and rarely.
Storm Nordwind: I sympathize with that, and have worked similarly.
Raffila Millgrove: ah you have? what bother me is knowing it's not only--loving--can be otherside--and I fear that darkness.. so.. i keep that very downlown and infrequent because of those fears.

An ethical stance.

Storm Nordwind: The biggest trap is thinking you know what is best for someone and doing it for them whether or not that have asked for it.
Raffila Millgrove: the duality.. it is so present.. it's what made me wonder--did we have this power from old days and lose our way.. who could help me.
Raffila Millgrove: well my tarot teacher said same--that consent of other is needed. not to do anything without others' permission.
Storm Nordwind: It's certainly a common power - but there are few teachers worth anything sadly. very many are self-indulgent or misguided themselves.
Storm Nordwind: Your tarot teacher said wisely
Raffila Millgrove: yes. it was lack of humble teacher.. knowledge.. that .. made me feel.. better to stay away. but... i am always sad that i could not use it because.. i know .. i can do it well.
Raffila Millgrove: this tarot teacher had the lack of ego.. that vulnerability.. she was very trustworthy. one day she disappeared.
--BELL--

Persuasion.

Storm Nordwind: By the way - brief interruption ... would you object if I took this log and just posted a general "Storm and Raffi had a wonderful but personal conversation"? I very rarely talk about these things and many misinterpret what I say as ego or somesuch.
milakel Resident: wait, only you two?
Storm Nordwind chuckles
milakel Resident: hi :)
Storm Nordwind: Mila - hi!
Raffila Millgrove: oh sTrom.. i think it was illuminating.. to know.. what your experience and background is ... are yo usure you need to remove it?
Raffila Millgrove: i shared my own experience because i did not want you to feel.. it was one-sided.
milakel Resident: ego? what? :)
Raffila Millgrove: hi Mila
milakel Resident: ah, i seem to be late for the revelation :)
Storm Nordwind: I don't NEED to, as everyone knows I'm an oddball, but these things are so often associated with self-indulgent personalities that I wonder if it would hinder my helping people. (Not really bothered for myself)
milakel Resident: :)
milakel Resident: aren't we all
Raffila Millgrove: the other need.. perhaps. did you see it that way.. the others would never find it... weird or.. ego. I ask you not to remove it.. if you can bear to be exposed.. to trust in the others compassion and lack of judgemental.
Raffila Millgrove: issue of trust. in goodness of the others. i trust them.

Accedence.

Storm Nordwind: Well OK. We can carry on. :) What you've said is also interesting Raffi. Shame we are 1000 miles apart in RL :)
milakel Resident: so, we can all read it in the logs then? :)
Raffila Millgrove: hehehe I will protect you. RAffi laughs as she makes a little shawl for NOrth...
Raffila Millgrove looks for her kntting needles.
Storm Nordwind: Then I'm fine with it. And protection was my speciality, but I very much appreciate the thought! :)
milakel Resident: ouch, needles
Raffila Millgrove: hehe. no MIla.. i am making little joke.. about our talk. I mention that I could imbue fabric with protection power.. so i a knitting little shawl for north..
milakel Resident: ahhh, good then :)

Needles

Raffila Millgrove: if you want needles. i could do that too.. but frankly.. it makes me very nervous. in Bdsm we do that. we call it temporary piercing. i am well trained in it.. but i don't do it very often.
milakel Resident: no, thank you, ms raff :)
Raffila Millgrove: hehe.
Storm Nordwind: I remember back in the early 80s, there was a fad with people saying that this or that crystal had some special property, often at odds with what others said. It was only in the 90s that I felt clear enough to say "Enough. I'll find out for myself what is true about them!"
milakel Resident: er
milakel Resident: i suppose they do. physical properties.
milakel Resident: you can measure this stuff
Raffila Millgrove: here is true fact. In California in the jr college system. a woman i know is respected sex educator. and in her class.. she asks student if they like her to do.. temporary pierece with one needle. Almost all say yes. please. So then she does it.. and surprisingly.. almost all the students will ask not to have needle removed.. to remove themselves after class. Needles are rather magical and do not have to cause pain.
Storm Nordwind: I've no idea how it works. Just like I don't know how dowsing works, but I can teach 1 in 3 people to do it.
Storm Nordwind: That's interesting Raffi. Do you think it's her. Or the practice? Would it make a difference who showed them this?
Raffila Millgrove: it is the physical experience of the needle, but it is Also HER. she knows how to do it very safely and explains those safety factors.. and inspires trust.
Storm Nordwind: Right. Inspiring - and earning - trust is key
Raffila Millgrove: you must use correct needle, try to keep very sanitary--cannot have total sterile environ.. but there are ways to keep as safe as possible .. never heard of anyone in my area--wno ends up damaged over needle play.
Storm Nordwind: Good evening Mick
Mickorod Renard: evening all
Storm Nordwind: My wife goes to an experienced PT who uses non-acupuncture needle therapy, often quite deeply.
Raffila Millgrove: but frankly it is terrifying.. and the risk is on the one who places the needle. i did it with Hepatis 3 person and i was so frightened of sticking self. but i had to prove to self I could do it for her as she trusted me.
Mickorod Renard: ouch
Raffila Millgrove: key to learning is to have top notch teachers.. and faith in self. I only want to learn. i dont use it. recognize it's too much fear for me to be truly good with it.
--BELL--
milakel Resident: mick :)
Mickorod Renard: I suspect, if not driven hard to perform..there must be a tipping edge where familiarity with the practice will provide the confidence
Raffila Millgrove: hi MIck.
Mickorod Renard: Hi Folks

"Act as if"

Raffila Millgrove: i use that old theory of "act as if". if you want to gain confidence in a skill or gain a characteristic.. to act as if you have it.. and eventually you do gain the genuine confidence.. but the initial "acting as if" you know what you are doing or you have the charateristic.. will get you thru that transition period of gaining/learning/practice.
Raffila Millgrove: it comes from the father of American psychology.. whose name i cannot retrieve right now.
Storm Nordwind: That is key in the business world. To gain promotion, think yourself into the new role and act as though you already had it.
Raffila Millgrove: right. it's so useful in all areas of life.
Storm Nordwind: Indeed it is!
Mickorod Renard: I can relate to that Raff, I find myself in that position quite regularly, I teach some in a school
Raffila Millgrove: there is humility in the original acknowledgement.. that you don't know what your are doing.. or your are weak and don't have the trait you wish... so that holds down people from acting like total egomaniacs.. it helps the ones who really want to learn or grow.
Mickorod Renard: I am forunate in having an air that I give off, that most folk think I know what i am doing..its only me that is the one lacking confidence
Raffila Millgrove: exactly Mick.. but you do find over time.. that you can the confidence with the practice of the skill or feeling of the characterist coming to you with usage?
Raffila Millgrove: that was gain genuine confidence over time.. by "acting as if" you had it?
Storm Nordwind has the same 'problem' as Mick - very common with Leos allegedly!
Mickorod Renard: I remember in my old work,,I always felt the new person,,and very weary of taking the lead..after many years i came to a realisation,,when a collegue said that i was the longest serving,,that i actually was most experienced,,wierd feeling
Storm Nordwind: It's sad that self-confidence can be manifest in more than one way - overconfidence and egomania as well as humble assuredness.
Storm Nordwind: And be misinterpreted between those by others
Mickorod Renard: he he yes :))
Raffila Millgrove: you have to be based in that starting acknowledgement.. that you are full of uncertainty.
Storm Nordwind: I disagree. I feel it's possible to be quite certain and still be humble yet have an inspiring confidence.
Raffila Millgrove: the ego types.. deny any undertainty.. semm to operate under delusions of grandure (sp). lol
Raffila Millgrove: well .. by certainty.. i mean skills.. or a trait.
Raffila Millgrove: that you don't have it.... yet. The certainty can be based in the idea that eventually you will get it.
Storm Nordwind: Well that doesn't hold true for me. I'm not uncertain about what I do. I don't feel fear, But I have no delusions about anything as I just try to put others first.
Mickorod Renard: I have now seen many years pass, and had an opportunity to watch my character at work as well as others both young and old...I look on our young leaders with both humbleness and envy at their confidence..mixed with some fear
Storm Nordwind: I don't pretend to know other than I do. So I make that clear. Within what I do know, I can operate confidently though
Raffila Millgrove: Storm.. i am meaning.. like let's say you have never ridden a horse. you know you don't know how to do it.. so you approach with knoweldge of lack of skill.. but you also know you better act as if you know what you are doing.. for benefit of the horse.. to feel he can follow your lead. things like that... does that make sense?
Storm Nordwind: Sure. But if the horse needs that, I'd better not try. I will be totally open and say I don't know. If horses can't handle that, I'll go fly a plane instead! ;-)
Raffila Millgrove: like mIck said.. how he carries self.. exudes air of confidence.. helps those around him feel more comfortable. helps him feel better.
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: I think most folk are happy working with someone who acknowledges they dont know as long as the leader takes responsibility for the outcome
Raffila Millgrove: corrects spelling "grandeur" and nods to mick and agreement.
Storm Nordwind: I do that too. But part of what people say they respect (in me) is not just complete self-confidence but also that when I don't know I say so, and not pretend. Confidence, openness and humilt together - they say - inspires their trust.
Storm Nordwind: (Sound odd to be talking about myself! Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking... ;)
Storm Nordwind: Confidence doesn't mean you don't fail. I fail a lot! But it's like improvising on guitar: you screw up but have the confidence to pick up before the audience really notices!
Raffila Millgrove: i was taught that when you don't know.. and are leading.. that you should say right off--oh I don't have answer for that question.. not yet.. dont' know.. but will find out for you. ( i like that #3 )
milakel Resident: :)
Storm Nordwind: Yes. "I'll find out for you". Though what do you do if that's not possible?
Raffila Millgrove: admit it.. and ask others.. hey.. how do we find out? eventually someone figures it out.
Raffila Millgrove: or rarely. .have to agree it's going to remain an unsolved mystery. lol
Storm Nordwind: There will always be things that will never be found out by me in this lifetime, yes!
Storm Nordwind: The more I know and find out, the more things I find will best fit into the unsolved mystery category!

Personal heaven.

Raffila Millgrove: yep. but that's why.. i designed my personal heaven.. so that i get to sit in this theater.. first thing.. and they'll show me.. all the things.. i was wondering about in this life. I demand the answers first before i go to visit with my loved ones.. and since we are in eternity.. the time.. won't seem so long to find out all those mystery things. the loose ends i call them.
milakel Resident: what is in that list for you?
Storm Nordwind: How confident are you in this design personal heaven? ;-)
Raffila Millgrove: oh totally 1000 percent.
Storm Nordwind: Yay!
Raffila Millgrove: and btw.. if you want to come to my heaven.. i take everyone.. and you get.. to design your own.. in mine.. so yous can be whatever you think you'd like.
Storm Nordwind: Thank you Raffi, you can visit mine too! :)
Raffila Millgrove: my heaven is.. Yours.. whatever you think is good.. what you want.. you can have.
Raffila Millgrove: thanks.
milakel Resident: what heaven is that? do you have an lm? :)
Raffila Millgrove: hehe. don't worry when your time comes.. you'll be able to come on in.
Storm Nordwind: By the way Mila, imagine knowledge growing like a coral. The more it grows, the more surface area it has that's not within it. Similarly with knowledge: the more you know the much more there is to know.
milakel Resident: a-ha
Raffila Millgrove: i have one person who was afraid to die alone.. so i have to go get him.. otherwise eveyrone will just show up according to their own wishes.
milakel Resident: storm, i was asking about the knowledge mysteries that you included in your list - a few examples :)
Raffila Millgrove: I agree STorm. i am only getting my loose ends tied up in the theater.. after that i am goign to spend a lot of time.. learning all the new things i didn't know... it will take.. pretty much forever.
--BELL--
milakel Resident: ding
Storm Nordwind: Make you own examples Mila! It's a bigger target area than what I do know. Name something. I don't carry a list in my mind. Wonder precludes it. Takes away from the experience of NOW.
milakel Resident: er, what? :)
milakel Resident: it was very pabish. thank you :)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
milakel Resident: i like when structure comes into the pab picture though
Storm Nordwind: Example? ;)
milakel Resident: i was just trying to introduce one :)
milakel Resident: with no luck :)
Raffila Millgrove: a mystery?
milakel Resident: a concrete example that most people can relate to
Raffila Millgrove: but there are so many Mila.. we.. touch on one.. Heaven? or Time? or how to have confidence or not.. why some are delusional?

Zen talk.

milakel Resident: zen talk is fine, raff. for a while :)
Raffila Millgrove: those questions.. we are not going to get answer here.
Raffila Millgrove: but we can roll the question around in mouth.. and enjoy the taste.
Storm Nordwind: Like the list of places I've never been to - very long, and no significance at all in any ordering of the infinite list.
Raffila Millgrove: does that seem... Zen talk to you?
milakel Resident: yes
Raffila Millgrove: oh
milakel Resident: is it not for you?
Storm Nordwind: What is Zen talk for you Mila?
Raffila Millgrove: not exactly. seems very concrete to me. very pragmatic. that certain questions.. cannot get very definate answers. just a lot of possibles.
Raffila Millgrove: maybe that is zennish? to you? i dunno. seems Taoist to me.
Storm Nordwind looks around to see if Mr. Arado is here
milakel Resident: new age sprinkled with spirituaity and vague metaphysics - something like that :)
milakel Resident: well, it's pab - for short :) in its original sense
milakel Resident: magic of time, etc

Newage and sewage.

Storm Nordwind: I had a friend who was convinced New Age should be written newage, and pronounced as rhyming with sewage! ;)
Raffila Millgrove feels a little shaken.. cause she doesn't feel that way.. doesn't feel New Age. never liked the term.
Raffila Millgrove: wow. Sewage Newage.. love it.
Raffila Millgrove: do you see yourself as New Age person Storm?
Raffila Millgrove: which .. word might you pick Mila.. as how you see yourself?
Storm Nordwind: No. I have been surrounded by such people.
milakel Resident: as mila, at the moment :)
Storm Nordwind: New Age people (in Britain at least) had a reputation for making stuff up as they went along, whatever was the most comfortable fad.
Raffila Millgrove: as Mila. that's terrific. uniqueness. one of kind. a whole person. Those are my thought when you say as Mila.. you are thinking similiar?
milakel Resident: not quote. it's just "me" in this moment.
milakel Resident: i heard not once pab being called "new age" from other people :)
Raffila Millgrove: mm.
Raffila Millgrove really keeps her mouth shut on this one as she dare not say how thought of PAB herself at first. lol
milakel Resident: it may not be per se, but it has a good sense of it from the outside.
milakel Resident: maybe those new age people see themselves differently too :)
Storm Nordwind: New Age (as I've seen it) lacks humility and honesty about exploring whereas I think those things are at the heart of PaB.
--BELL--
milakel Resident: hmm, i thought it was a central part of new age - exploration
Raffila Millgrove: mmm. I am noping New Age.. is.. kind of "over" now.. it passed by us.. i hope.. I agree with storm.. on how it felt to live with it.
Storm Nordwind: Yes. But not all discovered things are equal. Having explored one needs to see true relationships between things, see which things stand up to scrutiny.
Storm Nordwind: (To Mila)
Raffila Millgrove: had lovely time with you both.. but.. must tend to tasks ... etc. TAke care and have great day to you both.
milakel Resident: bye, ms raff :)
Storm Nordwind: Raffi - great to talk with you!
Raffila Millgrove: bye now. you too!
milakel Resident: be careful with the needles
milakel Resident: ok
milakel Resident: poof time
Storm Nordwind: Bye!
Storm Nordwind: Sleep well
milakel Resident: aren't you going?