2008.08.01 13:00 - Good and Bad Attachments?

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    That afternoon, Genesis was the guardian. Here is the chat log for the session.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Gen
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: hello Gen.
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Fael!
    Wol Euler: lol, I just cammed up by accident -- and saw the flying sampan.
    Fael Illyar: Sampan?
    Faenik: indeed?
    Wol Euler: I believe that's the name. Type of boat, S.E. Asian. Flying.
    Wol Euler: ha! probably Pema, the flying dutchman.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Wol Euler: it would be his kind of joke, I think.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Fael Illyar: I've been feeling I'm returning back the way I've come the last few days. Although, in some ways the opposite.
    Wol Euler: mm?
    Fael Illyar: A bit hard to explain though.
    Wol Euler: it could have two senses: positively, as a return to something you had missed and wandered from
    Wol Euler: or negatively, as falling away from a good and desired state.
    Wol Euler: which did you mean?
    Fael Illyar: in a way both :)
    Wol Euler: ah :-)
    Faenik: indeed?
    Fael Illyar: it's partially because I've had several days not doing the explorations (or meditation) during the last 2 weeks.
    Fael Illyar: Although, thanks to that, I finally got started making a 15 minute alarm software for my cellphone.
    Wol Euler: :-)
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i think that's a normal learning cycle. in the immortal words of Paula Abdul, 2 steps forward, 1 step back?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: spirals.
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: Fred, sort of, yes, but it feels both at once, really :)
    Fael Illyar: I think I'm closing on to some things because of that
    Corvuscorva Nightfire leans forward eagerly, listening to Fael...
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: sounds good. be gentle with yourself.
    Fael Illyar: I thought I had a pretty good idea of what that was but somehow nothing comes up now that I try for words.
    Fael Illyar: Wol, did you give Corvi the introduction yet?
    Wol Euler nods. Perhaps you did, just not in a way that can be expressed verbally.
    Wol Euler: not really. I showed her hte website, that was all we had time for.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am glad, though, already, that I came...just to hear your process just now.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Wol Euler: (I am a guardian too, btw, since a week. I don't wear the tag (yet) since I am just feeling my way into the role.)
    Fael Illyar: No rules about wearing the tag though :)
    Fael Illyar: but you'll need to wear it if you want to rez things here :)
    Wol Euler nods. Except that I feel uncomfortable doing so.
    Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, I remember having that at first :)
    Fael Illyar: ... 8 or maybe even 9 weeks ago.
    Wol Euler smiles. Time flies.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i have defintiely experienced phases of pulling back from this practice. it can be very intense
    Fael Illyar: Anyway, We're a group of people doing (some more, some less) these so called "explorations".
    Fael Illyar: Hi Isen
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: hello Isen
    Isen Enzo: whew..
    Gaya Ethaniel: lovely to see you here Isen
    Fael Illyar: The explorations are 9 second "stops" we do every 15 minutes (or only for some of the day).
    Isen Enzo: Let me take off my latteman cape..
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Wol Euler: awww :-)
    Isen Enzo: (I may wear it again soon...)
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Fael Illyar: We've got 4 meetings every day at 1am,7am,1pm and 7pm SLT
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Friedrich - could you tell me a bit more on [13:22] Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i have defintiely experienced phases of pulling back from this practice. it can be very intense
    Fael Illyar: These meetings are logged on our blog and wiki (although blog will be phased out). You don't mind what you say here being posted on the website, I hope, Corvi.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire shakes her head. I think that's fabulous.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I enjoyed the bits I read before I came.
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: for me, the practice has tapped into some powerful emotional areas. initially triggering raciness and excitement
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i recognized it, but decided to back away, cautiously.
    Fael Illyar: I had some excitement myself initially.
    Gaya Ethaniel: why back away?
    Fael Illyar: especially when I started doing zen meditation in addition to PaB explorations.
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: well, we flirted. but, rushing headlong into intensity can be foolhardy.
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i'm brave, but have been burned.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Fael Illyar: that's where this "excited without being excited" line in my profile comes from :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: i c Fael
    Wol Euler: that's a nice way to phrase it, Fred.
    Fael Illyar: Although, today I'd call it being calm and excited. :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: when did you decide to approach again Friedrich?
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: in my case, i often confuse anxiety and excitement - so similar, in feeling, to me
    Isen Enzo: non-attachment?
    Wol Euler: :-)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, recognizing the confusion.
    Gaya Ethaniel: in what way? those two emotions are very different imo...
    Fael Illyar: very different for me too
    Faenik: why not?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Isen - do you mean 'backing away' as non-attachment?
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i dunno. maybe I find a kind of thrill in uncertainty?
    Isen Enzo: onxiety more connected to worry- not like excitement- which is more like eager anticipation...
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: oh - i meant that literally. backing away from the practice.
    Fael Illyar: the backing away might be necessary if you feel yourself developing an attachment to PaB and the practise.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i guess i just feel like a bit of reverence is important. maybe we have lost that in our dogma/doctorine-free treatment
    Fael Illyar: what is "reverence" to you?
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: healty respect
    Fael Illyar: respecting what exactly?
    Gaya Ethaniel: i guess Friedrich what you are referring to is the doubt/scepticism that sometimes involved in scientific approach?
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: opposite of flippant? maybe not. nobody is being flippant.
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: respecting power?
    Fael Illyar: which power?
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: the power of the mind and forces beyond our immediate comprehension?
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: sorry, this isn't particulalrly well formulated, and i am not referring to any specific incident
    Fael Illyar: I don't think I've been lacking that sort of respect.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I wonder...when there is doctrine...there is guidance?
    Isen Enzo: kinda
    Gaya Ethaniel: pls tell us more Isen
    Isen Enzo: gotta follow the doctrine to be used as guidance..
    Gaya Ethaniel: you mean have to believe that it will work
    Isen Enzo: ritual is a kind of guidance.
    Isen Enzo: practice, too..
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Gaya Ethaniel: do you feel that's lacking in PaB Friedrich?
    Fael Illyar: I feel it's there if you're looking for it.
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: no exactly. but, overall, i think we have taken a caual (playful) attitude. but, there is some danger around the periphery.
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: some people have stumbled upon very powerful forces and emotions (myself included)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Faenik: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: and you feel that because of the powerful experiences, we need to have 'guidance'?
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: gentle warning?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: guidance was my thought...
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh i c... what you're getting at now
    Isen Enzo: To me, PaB is much like a "salon"...
    Gaya Ethaniel: pls explain a bit more Isen 'salon'
    Isen Enzo: not a saloon..
    Fael Illyar: wild west salon?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: You know...salons can be dangerous things.
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: well, the genous (to me) is in the commonality - our shared practice, vs. a particular text or teacher
    Isen Enzo: a group of people meeting to discuss...
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: they have been known to spark revolutions!
    Isen Enzo: whatever..
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Isen Enzo: not so mediated, or focused..
    Isen Enzo: free-form!
    Faenik: ah :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: so do you also think that there are dangers in this free form of discussion Isen?
    Isen Enzo: not necessairly, no..
    Isen Enzo: free-form is fun..
    Isen Enzo: focused is also fun..
    Wol Euler: Adams would have agreed last week :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Wol Euler: that it canm be dangerous, I mean.
    Isen Enzo: free-form is a little aimless..
    Fael Illyar: free form is sometimes focused :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: personally i find them complementing each other
    Wol Euler: hello Nikolai, have a seat :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: Hello Nikolai
    Isen Enzo: Brainstorming is a free-form way of finding an answer to a problem- so- kinda focused in that regard..
    Faenik: could be
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: gentlepeople, i am afriad i must depart. didn't mean to be a downer in any way. just sharing some reactions to the potency of the practice, for me.
    Gaya Ethaniel: it was interesting Friedrich good day to you
    Wol Euler: bye Friedrich, thank you.
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: l8tr
    Fael Illyar: No problem Fred, see you later :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Isen Enzo: Can't bring us down....
    genesis Zhangsun: Thanks for sharing Fred
    Isen Enzo: no no no..
    Nikolai Osterham: Hi everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    genesis Zhangsun: I think your points were very valid
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Nikolai
    Isen Enzo: Yo Nic!
    Isen Enzo: _/!\_
    Nikolai Osterham: Hi Genesis, Enzo, I hope you are well
    Isen Enzo: quiet now...
    Isen Enzo: was it the bell?
    Isen Enzo: Am I talking during a silent period?
    Isen Enzo: yes.
    Wol Euler: lol
    Gaya Ethaniel: it was a bell yes Isen
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Isen Enzo: excuse me..
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have you been here before Nikolai?
    genesis Zhangsun: free form Isen
    Gaya Ethaniel: indeed genesis
    Nikolai Osterham: No I haven't I am in fact very new to this whole thing
    Faenik: why not?
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh i c, maybe our website could help you http://playasbeing.wik.is/ information section is quite useful
    Nikolai Osterham: Thank you Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: np i'm pretty new here too so if you have any questions just let us know
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Wol Euler: I would like to return to something that ... disturbed me a little earlier on.
    Gaya Ethaniel: sure Wol
    Fael Illyar: In a nutshell, we're a group of people who do these "stops" called explorations for 9 seconds every 15 minutes (perhaps only for some of the day).
    Wol Euler: When Fred was talking about backing away, and respect for thet practice, Fael said
    Wol Euler: "[13:30] Fael Illyar: the backing away might be necessary if you feel yourself developing an attachment to PaB and the practise."
    Fael Illyar: We also have 4 meetings every day. 1am,7am,1pm,7pm SLT
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm hmm - i understood it as similar to myself escaping with meditation in the past
    Gaya Ethaniel: using meditation as an escape from RL*
    Wol Euler: I am vaguely discomfited by that idea, though I think I do see what good it attempts
    Fael Illyar: discomforted?
    genesis Zhangsun: why is that?
    Wol Euler smiles. There's a word missing in English. In German I would say "unbehaglich"
    Wol Euler: irritated, discomforted, disturbed, made uneasy.
    Nikolai Osterham: Thank you for allowing me to share a few moments
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw
    Gaya Ethaniel: why did you feel that way Wol?
    Wol Euler: well, I didn't tatke it as Gaya did, meditation as al alternative to / escape from RL.
    Wol Euler: In taht context it is correct, yes.
    Gaya Ethaniel: it's just my understanding only Wol
    Gaya Ethaniel: i'd like to hear your thoughts
    Wol Euler: But I wonder what it means within the context of PAB. I find this hard to express, but I wonder wether un-attachment can be taken too far.
    Fael Illyar: Gaya, no need to appear that humble. the "just" is not necessary :)
    Isen Enzo: There are different form of meditattion!
    Isen Enzo: some is an escape...
    Gaya Ethaniel: :P
    Wol Euler: granted
    Isen Enzo: some is a realization of realness..
    Isen Enzo: so to speak..
    Wol Euler: right, which is how I took Fred's tale. that he found something real.
    Wol Euler: why is attachment to that a bad thing?
    Fael Illyar: any attachment is
    Fael Illyar: blinds you from some things
    genesis Zhangsun: can also make you see others
    Wol Euler: are you not attached to this forceful un-attachedness?
    Gaya Ethaniel: good point Wol
    Fael Illyar: some attachments are less blinding than others.
    Fael Illyar: I've been playing with that thought recently :)
    Wol Euler: this is the point that irritated me (unbehagen)
    genesis Zhangsun: I think you can ride some attachments out see what they let you see then let them go
    Fael Illyar: being attached to being un-attached :P
    Wol Euler: ri9ght
    Fael Illyar: you can ride after letting go.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Wol Euler: damn, phone, brb
    genesis Zhangsun: how so?
    Fael Illyar: attachment is something that makes you feel like there simply is no alternative. Makes you unable to consider anything else.
    genesis Zhangsun: I see attachment as a wave you ride when it gone the water is still there underneath you but it is still
    Gaya Ethaniel: but they can be useful in learning i think
    genesis Zhangsun: you ride the energy for awhile
    Isen Enzo: I have a short note on life without attachment....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire looks at Genesis statement and starts stimming on it...
    Fael Illyar: having or not having an attachment doesn't mean you act differently
    Gaya Ethaniel: pls send us the note Isen
    Fael Illyar: you let the attachment go but still do what you would have done with it.
    Isen Enzo gave you 7-28-08 Imagine a Life Without Attachments.
    Fael Illyar: the letting go of an attachment doesn't make anything vanish. Just allows you more freedom.
    Gaya Ethaniel: thank you Isen
    Isen Enzo: With apologies, I must leave...
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Isen Enzo: RL calls...
    genesis Zhangsun: thanks Isen
    Gaya Ethaniel: good day to you
    Isen Enzo: It's been a pleasure!
    genesis Zhangsun: sure Fael I agree
    Fael Illyar: See you later Isen :)
    Isen Enzo: Good bye for now..
    Isen Enzo: Blessings...
    genesis Zhangsun: if one can just see it as a wave as opposed to shackles then I think it is possible to enjoy the ride so to say
    genesis Zhangsun: celebrate the ups and downs
    Gaya Ethaniel wishes everyone a good day and leave quietly
    Fael Illyar: I think your "wave" is what is left after you let an attachment go.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods nods, excited about the wave idea..
    genesis Zhangsun: perhaps we can define attachment a little more
    genesis Zhangsun: I guess I see atachment as something you hold on to for awhile but not crushing it between you fingers
    genesis Zhangsun: investigating it
    genesis Zhangsun: knowing it
    Fael Illyar: I see attachment as this "can't live without it" desperation type thing described in this notecard from Isen
    genesis Zhangsun: like letting a butterfly land in your palm watching it enjoying it and letting it go
    Faenik loves wells!
    genesis Zhangsun: hmm yes at its worst
    Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs...maybe there is Eu attachment and not good attachment.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Like Eu stress and bad stress.
    Fael Illyar: Eu?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Eu-> good
    genesis Zhangsun: not necessarily bad or good
    genesis Zhangsun: but just accepting that they are there
    genesis Zhangsun: celebrating the things they bring you
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Eustress...what you use to motivate..bad stress...what stops you.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...and resumes stimming on the ideas.
    Fael Illyar: Gen, I think we agree, I just use word attachment in a much more limited sense. What you're describing isn't attachment the way I see it.
    genesis Zhangsun: Hmm yes I think we agree to
    genesis Zhangsun: too
    genesis Zhangsun: I feel the struggle to eliminate attachments is not one I can engage in
    genesis Zhangsun: because to cut them out would be a struggle
    Fael Illyar: It doesn't feel like a struggle to me.
    Fael Illyar: also doesn't feel like cutting
    genesis Zhangsun: Hmm yes so how does it feel?
    Fael Illyar: more like relaxing a muscle you've kept tensed for a long time.
    genesis Zhangsun: umm yes I like that
    genesis Zhangsun: it actually sounds a bit like the contracting of the wave
    genesis Zhangsun: just let it go to and fro
    genesis Zhangsun: accepting though that this muscle may tense again
    Fael Illyar: the attachment is the inability to relax it
    genesis Zhangsun: yes I see
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: My mind pounces on the word inability, here.
    Fael Illyar: yes?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire struggles to explain....
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: THe deciding factor...is not having the attachment...but choosing to have it.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: knowing that you can let go.
    Wol Euler: back,sorry
    Faenik: why not?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or...at least that is how I am reading this discussion.
    Wol Euler reads the history
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I think that's quite close.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I feel quite happy to have heard this...thank you both.
    genesis Zhangsun: thank you Corvuscorva
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or rather, thank you all.
    Fael Illyar: yes, thank you :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Fael I hope this is not terribly annoying..
    Wol Euler: I like the wave / tensed muscle / analogies.
    genesis Zhangsun: oops sorry Wol
    genesis Zhangsun: I was going to turn to some bring administrative stuff
    genesis Zhangsun: me too I like the analogies
    Wol Euler: no worries, fire away.
    genesis Zhangsun: So Fael I have never posted a log on the wiki :) i sort of have gotten away with it thus far
    genesis Zhangsun: but I am supposed to post this log
    genesis Zhangsun: and I am happy to
    genesis Zhangsun: but not sure how to delete the times on notepad
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: notepad doesn't really give a good tool for it. There is a suggestion for a program that can do it easily on the log posting tutorial
    genesis Zhangsun: ok
    genesis Zhangsun: i will check it out
    genesis Zhangsun: well wonderful to be with you all
    genesis Zhangsun: I will be checking out
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Gen :)
    Fael Illyar: Nice seeing you again :)
    Wol Euler: yes, thank you Gen. Take care, enjoy the weekend
    genesis Zhangsun: bye Fael :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Bye Wol
    genesis Zhangsun: Bye Corvi
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Wol Euler: bye!
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