2008.08.13 19:00 - Mindfulness and orientation

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    The guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden and the comments are hers.

    When I got to the Pavilion Steven, Rowan, Threedee (as a lion), and Adelene (as a long-tailed dragon)are already there and Rowan is just joining the group. My visual attention was captured by the dragon and the lion avatars.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello rowan

    Rowan Masala: hi Steven

    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Maxine

    Rowan Masala: Hi all

    Rowan Masala: Hi Adelene

    Threedee Shepherd: hello rowan, maxine and the newest Av of Adelene!

    Adelene Dawner: hi :)

    Adelene Dawner is celebrating having figured out what Pema 'is'.

    Rowan Masala: really?

    As the guardian I set preferences to try to make the chatlog aspect easier. Meanwhile others are speaking about Adelene's rather impressive dragon av

    Maxine Walden: hi, all, sorry, setting preferences

    Rowan Masala: what is Pema?

    Threedee Shepherd: np

    Adelene Dawner: A dragon - I'm immitating him.

    Rowan Masala: ahhh

    stevenaia Michinaga: haha,

    Adelene Dawner: Haven't fixed thie av up with proper ears yet though.

    Adelene Dawner: ^^

    stevenaia Michinaga: why do you say that, looks more elvish in his pics

    Feeling a bit behind the others I then choose a seat next to Threedee as lion

    Maxine Walden: can I sit next to the liion?

    Threedee Shepherd: looksa more like insect whiskers now

    Threedee Shepherd: pls do

    Maxine Walden: hi, Adelene, quite a dragon!

    Adelene Dawner: Hey, it was a 10 minute mod and I scripted it, give me a break ^^

    Rowan Masala: I've gotta restart--brb

    stevenaia Michinaga: ok

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn is Online

    stevenaia Michinaga: very nice work

    Maxine Walden: quite stunning

    stevenaia Michinaga: for 10 minutes

    Adelene Dawner: Thanks :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: took me years for this look

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hi guys

    Adelene Dawner: It helps to know good places to shop, and I've worked with this av style before on my other account. ^^

    Adelene Dawner: I have one of these in *rainbow*. Quite a thing.

    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Friedrich

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: luck dragon?

    Maxine Walden: hi, Fred

    Maxine Walden: I suppose, a rainbow dragon, really nifty

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: nice. reminds me of the dragon in Neverending story

    Adelene Dawner has figured out what kind of creature Pema is, and is celebrating by immitating him. ^^

    Adelene has just mentioned an intriguing thing, her perception of the creature Pema, as a dragon. And quite apparently she has been very impressed with his visage and has gone to considerable lengths to imitate it

    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Freidrich

    Maxine Walden: what kind of creature is Pema, Adelene?

    Adelene Dawner: An eastern dragon, like this.

    stevenaia Michinaga: thought you were having diner with pema tonight?

    Adelene Dawner: nope. Yesterday lunch.

    Threedee Shepherd: Evening Tahuti

    Fred then asks a pertinent question which is not really taken up directly as threads of the previous conversation continue

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: aha. i wonder what species of magical creatues everyone in the room associates themselves with

    Maxine Walden: eastern dragon!

    Tahuti Thor: hello

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: yes - I met Pema and Genesis and Clair tonight for dinner!

    Tahuti Thor: evening

    Tahuti Thor: : )

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: great fun, great food, great conversation - quite a lovely night

    Threedee Shepherd: I'm jealous :)

    Maxine Walden: wonderful!

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: c'mon out anytime!

    Threedee Shepherd: A long drive from Colorado :D

    As I think about it, I believe the conversation then reflected the sense of crossroads many were having in terms of RL meetings, often over a meal, with Pema, whom we all acknowledge as in a significant leadership role.

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: not only is nyc a microcosm of hte world, but its also at the crossroads.

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: whenever you are on your way anywhere you can make your way though

    Maxine Walden: crossroads of the world? NYC?

    Threedee Shepherd: I grew up--long ago--in NYC (The Bronx)

    Adelene Dawner liked NYC to a surprising degree, except by taxi - that was a bit much.

    But now we get another aspect of a crossroads experience, the invitation to teleporting/subway/elevators which can be disorienting

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: heh. I find the subways to be a bit like TP'ing

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: you just pop up somewhere new.

    Adelene Dawner: :)

    Rowan re-joins us having to reboot.

    Maxine Walden: hi, Rowan, welcome

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: Hi Rowan

    Rowan Masala: thanks Maxine

    Rowan Masala: hi Friedrich

    Threedee Shepherd: I have always imagined small children perceive an Elevator much like TPing

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: some big children too ;-)

    The topic of small children and their sense of such as an elevator comes into the conversation

    Maxine Walden: that child in all of us...

    Threedee Shepherd: Just imagine, you are a small kid. You saw people go in. Next time the door opens its EMPTY and your parent want YOU to go in. sure

    Tahuti Thor: bbl

    Maxine Walden: wow, yes, rather fearful

    Maxine Walden: right, Tahuti

    Rowan Masala: when I lived in LA, there was an installation at the Museum of Modern Art

    Rowan Masala: it looked like an elevator

    Rowan Masala: and you pushed the button, and went in it

    Rowan Masala: and there was an up button and a down button

    Rowan Masala: but all it did was make an ascending or descinding noise

    Rowan Masala: it never moved

    Maxine Walden: disappointed?

    Rowan Masala: no--intrigued

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: heh. or so you think. perhaps you ended up in an alternate universe

    Rowan Masala: indeed!

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: how would you know?

    Rowan Masala: very true

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: that's disconcerting

    And the sense of an enclosing box without controls brings the image of entrapment into the room, at least for Rowan

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: some new elevator systems make you dial your floor from the lobby, route you to an elevator, and they have /no/ buttons inside

    Rowan Masala: wow

    Rowan Masala: I would feel so trapped

    Rowan Masala: why do they do that?

    Threedee Shepherd: In doentown Denver there is no subway. But on one block, the gratings have subway noises coming out.

    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s more efficient

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: its more efficient? they group passengersgoing to similar floors together

    Rowan Masala laughs

    Maxine Walden: maybe the strand of our not knowing is common to all of us and PaB

    Rowan Masala: that's hilarious about Denver

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i hvae to say, elevator rides are prime PaB time for me

    Maxine Walden: make believe subway for a block?

    Threedee Shepherd: umhmm

    Adelene Dawner: This reminds me a bit of when I first moved to NJ from Pennsylvania.... we had a Target store in both towns... I went into the Target here for the first time, was *exactly* the same inside... I was extremely disoriented when I left and was in NJ, not PA.

    Pema than joins us.

    Rowan Masala: hi Pema

    stevenaia Michinaga: true, the 9 floor moment

    Maxine Walden: hi, Pema, good to see you

    Pema Pera: Hi everyone! Can't stay long, but just wanted to say hi

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hey

    Threedee Shepherd: hi Pema

    Adelene Dawner: ^^

    Rowan Masala knits her brow

    Maxine Walden: We are gathering our different experiences, including possibly disorienting ways into the unknown

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: Adelene - at least Target keeps the stores consistent. i am quite annoyed when i walk into a huge drug stor, like duane reade, and there is no rhyme or reason to the layout

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: and they all differ

    Adelene Dawner: ik

    Maxine Walden: why knit brow, Rowan?

    Very soon after Pema arrived the rather boistrous discussion fell almost to silence. Rowan remarks

    Rowan Masala: everything was silent for a while. I was wondering if we had all taken separate elevators somewhere else :)

    Threedee Shepherd: I live in Boulder, Colorado and the Rocky Mts. are to the West. My parents retired to Phoenix, with mountains in multiple directions, and I could never quite get oriented no matter how many times I visited.

    I had some thoughts about the nature of the silence but as Rowan for her thoughts

    Maxine Walden: what did you make of the silence, rowan?

    Maxine Walden: another aspect of disorientation, Threedee

    Threedee Shepherd: indeed

    Rowan Masala: It was disconcerting. I wondered if I was still here. I thought it was odd that it happened just as Pema, who's such a fabulous conversational facilitator showed up

    Maxine Walden: I had the impression that we became silent as Pema showed up, sort of like

    Adelene Dawner is looking forward to perhaps moving to NYC - it will be nice to have hills around. And, yanno, rocks. Central park is nice. Here, it's all flat flat flat, sand and sand. Yuk.

    Maxine Walden: we were all kids talking, laughing, goofing off and here comes the parent Pema. Did anyone else sense that?

    Rowan Masala laughs

    Pema Pera: :)

    Rowan Masala: I had the sense that maybe we all got stage fright or performance anxiety when he showed up

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: slightly, perhaps. but, i think that happens alot when someone shows up in hte middel of a conversatoin

    In response to the notion of the group going quiet because of Pema's arrival, perhaps the kids quieting when the parent comes into the room, Pema then responds

    Pema Pera wondering whether to sing a song . . .

    stevenaia Michinaga: lol, maybe a dance

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: to greet? to catch up? to just continue?

    Pema Pera: can't let my hair down (further)

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: yes, to dance?

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: rock paper scissors, anyone?

    Sky then joins us

    Pema Pera: Hi Sky!

    Maxine Walden: hi, Sky

    Rowan Masala: hey Sky

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hello

    Sky Szimmer: hi everyone

    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s been a while since we de-evolved into dance

    Adelene Dawner: Dare I ask?

    The question of direction of evolution from discussion to dance comes up

    Rowan Masala: what makes you say that's devolution??

    Maxine Walden: join our menagerie, Sky

    stevenaia Michinaga: was jsut thinking about that the other day

    stevenaia Michinaga: well it does eveolve a bit of breakdown in decorum

    Threedee Shepherd: We were talking about being "spatially disoriented" and I am wondering how that related to meditation and mindfulness?

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i think we should try a round of Exquisite Corpse sometime - where we finsih each other's sentences

    Rowan Masala: decorum poof

    The thread of discussion re orientation/disorientation remains and the notion of mindfulness is added

    stevenaia Michinaga: can you ahve both, disorientation and mindfulness?

    Adelene Dawner: You can be mindful of the disorientation...

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: sometimes i think you need to, or you;'re in trouble

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: like if you get lost while scuba diving or somethign

    Rowan Masala nods

    Rowan Masala: I think disorientation can shake us out of a narrow focus on something and remind us to be mindful

    Pema brings his view of mindfulness into the discussion, suggesting in his view that it is independent of orientation/disorientation, a view which seemed different from others expressed previously. But as the flow of conversation continues his view seems to orient the conversation, demonstraing his leadership role

    Pema Pera: mindfulness starts with not judging -- so if there is disorientation, well, that's the way it is

    Pema Pera: but then you can try to re-orient yourself, if you like

    Pema Pera: or if you are comfortable with it, let it be

    Pema Pera: many options :)

    Adelene Dawner: Hi Avastu ^^

    Threedee Shepherd: What is *here/there* and *direction*, anyway. In one Native American language, ALL spoken spatial references are meant relative to the direction the speaker is facing.

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hi friend

    Avastu comes in

    Pema Pera: Evening, Avastu!

    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend

    Avastu Maruti: friend(s)

    Threedee Shepherd: hi

    Maxine Walden: hi, Avastu

    Steve tries to relate mindfulness and orientation, and Pema has a different view. Throughout the next several minutes it seems that Pema and Fred and to some extent Steve are trying to compare/contrast views

    stevenaia Michinaga: but doesn't the moment of mindfulness orient you

    Pema Pera: not necessarily

    Threedee Shepherd: in bein, not in space

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: multiple sense of disorientation here

    stevenaia Michinaga: even from an observational point of view

    Threedee Shepherd: being

    Pema Pera: ah yes

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: the experience of feeling disoriented

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: and, the cognitive undersstanding/kn owledg of your current state

    Threedee Shepherd: or more generally, "Oriented to What", Time, space, essence?

    stevenaia Michinaga: jsut getting a sence of mindfulnees defined

    Pema Pera: disorientation can indeed mean many things -- from confusion to a happy letting go of the need to focus on a single direction

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: but, it is an interesting question to consider the 'opposite' of mindfulness

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: confusion? disorientation?

    Thinking that I was hearing different views/definitions of mindfulness I try to mention that observation. Some interesting conversation about mindfulness and different ways to view/think/work with it ensues.

    Maxine Walden: I believe we have different thoughts about 'mindfulness' in this conversation. Might be helpful to get the different definitions but we are honing in on Pema's definiton

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: (at least the feeling of being disriented, with respect to whatever)

    Rowan Masala: what's the realm of mindfulness and Being? Is it emotional? cognitive? spiritual? corporeal?

    Pema Pera: I prefer a working definitino

    Pema Pera: over a logical or verbal definition

    Pema Pera: like: what to do to be mindful

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: or, what it feels like when _____

    Rowan Masala nods

    Threedee Shepherd: I understand mindfulness in the sense of one of the Buddhist meditative traditions, as being non-judgemental observational awareness of what arises in mind

    Rowan Masala: so cognitive

    Rowan Masala: but is that all?

    Maxine Walden: Rowan, what do you think?

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: and, is it the kind of thing that has an opposite. or, how are its neighbors realted to it

    Threedee Shepherd: I should say in mind-body, then, mindfulness is not explicitely cognative in any linguistic sense

    stevenaia Michinaga: Mindfulness can be defined as awareness of each moment as it occurs and a purposeful attention. ... sounds like Being

    Rowan Masala: then why do we call it mindfulness? that seems so exclusibe

    Rowan Masala: *exclusive

    Rowan Masala: why not a more encompassing word?

    Threedee Shepherd: a poor translation from a language other than English, I think

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: present?

    Rowan Masala nods

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: shoot - as in, here and now. not as in a gift, or showing someone something

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: (or, sent in advance)

    Rowan Masala nods

    Threedee Shepherd: steve, that works for me and does not require an specific orientation. Indeed orientation is one possible thing that is observed

    stevenaia Michinaga: a web definition

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: but, being mindful of your disorientation is a funny one

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: cause, if its the experience of feeling disoriented, becoming mindful of it will likely collapse it

    Threedee Shepherd: is it disorientation or non-orientation that is simply being?

    stevenaia Michinaga: that was my feeling

    Threedee Shepherd: steve, that???

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: didn't we make that observation about boredome the other day?

    stevenaia Michinaga: Friedrich Ochsenhorn: cause, if its the experience of feeling disoriented, becoming mindful of it will likely collapse it

    stevenaia Michinaga: that

    Threedee Shepherd: what does that refer to, the threads are a bit tangled

    stevenaia Michinaga: but I didn;t come here with a definition of what mindfulness was, jsut trying to get a sence of the word and it's meaning

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: at the same time, maybe this isn't so special. becoming mindful of any feeling alters it

    stevenaia Michinaga: observing something changes it?

    Pema Pera: well, interesting as this discussion is, I'm afraid I have to leave -- have to get up earliesh tomorrow for yet another day of meeting guardians, including Stevenaia -- yeah! And thank you VERY much, Threedee, for again taking over from me at 1 am later tonight; wonderful to be able to get enough sleep tonight.

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: g'night!

    Threedee Shepherd: :) bye for now

    stevenaia Michinaga: ..smiles

    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend

    Maxine Walden: bye, Pema

    stevenaia Michinaga: see you for dinner Pema

    Pema Pera: next week, when I'm in Japan, I will have more time to come regularly

    Pema Pera: see you all soon again!

    Pema leaves the discussion.

    stevenaia Michinaga: you do get around

    Threedee Shepherd: I would like to press on orientation a bit more, please

    Maxine Walden: please

    stevenaia Michinaga: orientation or observation?

    Threedee Shepherd: One way I enter the 9-sec is to have a sense of disengagement, to allow what then happens to happen. For me, that is non-orientation i of a kind.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hmm, thunder in the distance, I usually loose SL when a storm passes

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i think rowan's dimensions were relavant here

    Threedee Shepherd: which?

    stevenaia Michinaga: when I take my 9 secs, I go dark and re-emerge into.... whatever is there, a re-orientation

    Threedee Shepherd: ah, I realize that oriented to *what* is being danced with here

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: [19:27] Rowan Masala: what's the realm of mindfulness and Being? Is it emotional? cognitive? spiritual? corporeal?

    Adelene leaves the discussion

    Adelene Dawner: hmm. I'm getting a headache. I think I'll go lie down for a while. I'll take thi av back home; the meeting will be over by the time I get back, I'm sure.

    Maxine Walden: nice to see you Adelene

    Adelene Dawner: :)

    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm, and to that 19:27 quote, I answer, YES ;)

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: be well

    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend

    stevenaia Michinaga: night Adelene

    Adelene Dawner: See you all another time.

    Rowan Masala: bye Adelene. take care

    Threedee Shepherd: later adelene...

    Rowan Masala smiles at Threedee

    Rowan Masala: so all of the above, and more

    Threedee Shepherd: yes

    Rowan Masala: what language would that have been translated from? and does anyone know enough about it to have more of a sense of what it might have originally meant?

    Fred tries to bring another strand of conversation into the room, perhaps also to bring in Avastu who has remained almost totally silent so far.

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: (sorry. no) hmmmm.... you know, there is an aspect of this conversation that ties back to a great converstaion avastu and I had last week

    Maxine Walden: are you wondering about the term mindfulness, where it came from?

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: the question of whether beliefs can create/change reality

    But Threedee who has had the topic of orientation/disorientation in mind persists with it

    Threedee Shepherd: yet, let me go back to the very specific spatial case and see additional meaning. To be specific, I visit Washington DC at least yearly. There are a few downtown Metro (subway) stops, which when I emerge from them, I know my destination but have no idea which way to go to get there. It is like I am suspended in a warp of some sort

    Then we are joined by Venolin who moreless stumbled into the Pavilion. It was her first time, and we all become involved in welcoming her. Perhaps a kind of orientation we can all agree upon warmly

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Verolin

    Venolin Sweetwater: hello

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hi there

    Maxine Walden: hi, Venolin.

    Threedee Shepherd: hello

    Venolin Sweetwater: hello everyone

    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend

    Venolin Sweetwater: where am i

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: as for etymology, I have no idea, but i wouldnt be surprised if it has many sources, muddled togehter

    Maxine Walden: I'm not sure we have met, have you been to these meetings before? Playasbeing meeting is where you are

    Threedee Shepherd: beliefs are part of my part of being, and if all being is the reality there is, then Yes, beliefs create/are reality in some way

    Venolin Sweetwater: what is this?

    Venolin Sweetwater: am i interupting?

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: great question! ;-)

    Maxine Walden: it is a meeting where we talk about the nature of reality, not interrupting, please join us if you wish

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: not at all. please sit down.

    stevenaia Michinaga: no, feel free to paticipate

    Threedee Shepherd: Ah, Verolin, you are new to SL. sit for a bit

    Venolin Sweetwater: yes I am

    Maxine Walden: Verolin, we do blog our conversation, are you OK with that, with your SL conversation with us?

    Rowan Masala: welcome to SL, and to Play as Being

    Maxine Walden: all these questions for you Verolin

    Venolin Sweetwater: that's fine

    Maxine Walden: great

    Threedee Shepherd: Venolin, may I ask how it was you teleported to here?

    Venolin Sweetwater: I'm not sure how I got here

    Maxine Walden: you may wish to read about these conversations. They are at www.Playasbeing.wordpress.com

    Threedee Shepherd: Then you are certainly in the right place :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: when you have a moment , please feel free to look at our wiki

    stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell

    Rowan Masala smiles at threedee

    Rowan Masala: Venolin, if you will right click on a cushion, it will give you a "sit" option

    Maxine Walden: thanks Steve for giving Venolin that site

    Trying to recapture the thread of conversation I ask a question which gathers laughter as it demonstrates some disorientation.

    Maxine Walden: where was the conversation?

    Rowan Masala applauds

    stevenaia Michinaga: lol

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i think we got a bit disoriented

    Rowan Masala laughs

    stevenaia Michinaga: very good Fried

    Rowan Masala: but we are mindful of the disorientation

    Rowan Masala: :P

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: man, i wish i had a spin gesture

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: there are swings in SL where the whole world swings... that's a wild effect

    Maxine Walden: playing with disorientation

    Aware I would have to leave soon I mention it and at this point in the conversation the orientation of Venolin seems to be the main topic

    Maxine Walden: I will need to leavve in about 5 minutes, just some forwarning

    Maxine Walden: leave

    Venolin Sweetwater: did I miss your discussion

    Maxine Walden: we began to meet at 7pm SL time, so much of the discussion yes

    Maxine Walden: we meet 4 times daily: 7pm, 1pm, 7am, 1am

    Rowan Masala: wb Steven

    Threedee Shepherd: Venolin, I remember my first moments wandering in SL. For you, I suspect this will either turn out to be memorable, or forgetable as chaotic, dropping into the middle of our wanderingsa

    stevenaia Michinaga: if you want to come back here you can make a landmark of this location (World:Create Landmark Here"

    Venolin Sweetwater: Actually I am interested, and would lie to join one of your discussions from the begining. I will check out your blog you sent me to

    Maxine Walden: please do

    Threedee Shepherd: Different members are at different ones of the meetings, somewhat dependent on timezone

    Maxine Walden: as I go tonight I will take the chatlog and in a few hours it should be on the blog as well

    Maxine Walden: the chatlog for this meeting

    Venolin Sweetwater: well thank you for letting me join your evening, even though I wandered in too late

    Maxine Walden: it is 8pm and I should go, so I will do the necessary things and then slip out

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: thanks Maxine!

    Friedrich Ochsenhorn: great conversation, everyone

    stevenaia Michinaga: night all

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