2008.08.29 01:00 - On work and bosses

Wol Euler was the Guardian this morning, the comments are hers. I arrived to find Gaya waiting patiently.

Wol Euler: good morning, gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Gaya Ethaniel: Good morning Wol <smile>
Gaya Ethaniel: How are you this morning?
Wol Euler pauses to consider the question.
Wol Euler: pretty well, I think.
Wol Euler: Not sur yet
Wol Euler: *sure
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'ok, find out soon enough'
Wol Euler smiles
Wol Euler: and you?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hm... not sure yet <smile>
Wol Euler: lol
Wol Euler: well, I guess we are well in tune this morning.
Gaya Ethaniel nods 'yes looks like it'
Gaya Ethaniel: What's the weather like?
Wol Euler: middling, lots of lowlying but thin clouds,, warmish, stiff breez
Wol Euler: could be a nice day.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hope so
Wol Euler: don't know yet :-)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: What are you reading these day btw?
Wol Euler: ah :-)
Wol Euler: a wonderful book called "Thirteen Moons" by Charles Frazier, about the life on the frontier (USA) in the period between the Civil War
Wol Euler: and the modern era.
Wol Euler: as the Indians were "relocated" from east of the Mississippi onto barren lands to the west.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... about American history
Wol Euler: our little experience of genocide and ethnic cleansing, if you like.
Wol Euler: yes, personal fiction against a historical background
Gaya Ethaniel remembers bits from 'Last of the Mohicans'
Wol Euler: I'm enjoying it
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'that's good'
Wol Euler: that is my main reading, I am *also* reading "Affluenza" by Oliver James
Wol Euler: which is about social pressure and emotional distress, why it is that the rate of serious depression and mental illness has risen so far so fast, and is rising in the "new economy" lands too.
Wol Euler: Inauthenticity, failure to run one's own life, accepting images from advertising (and parents and movies and friends) as Truths rather than examining oneself to find _your_ interests
Wol Euler: relates to PaB in that way :-)
Wol Euler: that we are after authenticity here.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Wol Euler: among other things
Gaya Ethaniel: Say more?
Gaya Ethaniel read something similar but from an economist's point of view 'Happiness: Lessons from a New Science by Richard Layard'
Wol Euler: ah, sounds interesting.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'a short one too which helps'
Wol Euler: I am surprised that we (PaB) speak about happiness so seldom; hardly ever IIRC.
Gaya Ethaniel: Once we did but not much
Gaya Ethaniel has been thinking about 'examining oneself to find _your_ interests' & PaB
Wol Euler: ah :)
Wol Euler: what have you found?
Gaya Ethaniel: That we can see more 'clearly' with tools we get from PaB and other meditation techniques... but haven't yet found direct relations
Wol Euler nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you think so too?
Wol Euler: definitely, on both counts. Meditation and other tools are very good for discovering what we really think about what we are doing
Wol Euler: my attempts at the 9 seconds frequently include "I don't want to be doing this"
Gaya Ethaniel: How so?
Wol Euler: ("This" meaning that which I had been doing before it started, not the Nine itself.)
Gaya Ethaniel: k
Wol Euler: My dissatisfaction with those aspects of that job is a pretty big clue to inauthenticity.
Gaya Ethaniel: job = 9 sec?
Wol Euler: job = money-earning.
Gaya Ethaniel re-reads
Wol Euler: that which we laughingly refer to as "real life"
Gaya Ethaniel: What kind of dissatisfaction?
Wol Euler: hmm, well, I am unhappy working with one of hte two partners (I'm just a flunky)
Wol Euler: she wants to be boss, will not allow any decision to stand unless she was involved in making it
Gaya Ethaniel nods 'kind of ppl we work with... quite important...'
Wol Euler: constantly overrules everyone else, including her partner
Wol Euler: but is utterly unable to make a decision!
Gaya Ethaniel: Sounds painful...
Wol Euler: she panics at the idea of committing herself.
Gaya Ethaniel: Insecurity that...
Wol Euler: absolutely.
Gaya Ethaniel: Does she know what she's doing?
Wol Euler: professionally, yes, she is very good at the job.
Wol Euler: socially, personally, no.
Wol Euler: she is in deep denial about this. Has no recollection of ever changing her mind on any issue
Wol Euler: which makes for some pretty excited conversations.
Wol Euler: I cannot maintain my cool and calm self around her, I get annoyed and frustrated
Gaya Ethaniel cringes at the words 'excited conversations'
Wol Euler: and we start dealing with each other on that (quite childish) level.
Gaya Ethaniel: It's understandable Wol... so much stake on a 'job'
Wol Euler: It's absolutely embarrassing to look back on these arguments, so silly and so fierce.
Wol Euler: but she will not be helped. Rejects out of hand the possibility of therapy or even yoga/meditation
Wol Euler: anyway.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes... she needs to feel that she wants to change
Gaya Ethaniel: But you can see yourself more clearly now yes?
Wol Euler: yes, not htat it helps much with her.
Gaya Ethaniel: No?
Wol Euler: She cuts through my defenses and training, as it were.
Wol Euler: Overrides my attempt to be calm.

Meesha arrives. 

Meesha Cuttita: hi guys
Wol Euler: hello meesha, nice to seee you again
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Gaya Ethaniel: Wonder if you talked about this with the other partner
Meesha Cuttita: nice to see you
Wol Euler smiles.
Gaya Ethaniel: Lovely to see you again Meesha
Meesha Cuttita: :)
Wol Euler: (we're talking about a situation where I work, a tricky and unpleasant boss)
Meesha Cuttita: oh no... i've always only had unpleasant bosses
Wol Euler: Gaya, thte other partner is her husband. Total honesty is not requested.
Gaya Ethaniel: (and how effective the tools gained at PaB are)
Wol Euler nods at Meesha.
Gaya Ethaniel: Of course... <sigh>
Wol Euler: there are other kinds, but htey are rare.
Wol Euler: because most people bring their insecurities into their work life, and let them loose there
Meesha Cuttita: sure
Meesha Cuttita: it's slavery
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes... tend to show 'issues' in their private life
Wol Euler: mmhmm, being enslaved to oneself first off.
Meesha Cuttita: yes
Wol Euler: I cannot imagine that Bossette is happy in this state, being constantly in conflict with us and herself.
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm sure she isn't... just don't know how to get out of that vicious circle perhaps
Gaya Ethaniel: Or blind to see it...
Wol Euler: but she refuses to see what is happening, only to feel its emotional results which for her seeem to arrive from nowhere.
Gaya Ethaniel: She perhaps doesn't want to see it...
Gaya Ethaniel: Too scary to face up to what's with her life overall
Wol Euler: we had a half-hour long discussoin once based on second-grade arithmetic
Gaya Ethaniel: huh?
Wol Euler: whether 42 - 9 = 33 or 37
Gaya Ethaniel: No way...
Wol Euler laughs.
Wol Euler: that's not quite how it happened.
Gaya Ethaniel: What draws you into these discussions Wol? Do you like 'pains'?

A good question, and one that I should have answered more carefully. We drifted away from it, though. 

Wol Euler: it was about steelwork, not numbers; but it came down to that.
Gaya Ethaniel: Or you want to put her in her line?
Wol Euler: hmmm
Wol Euler: yes, I would like to correct such mistakes, because error irritates me.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Gaya Ethaniel: Can't accept mistakes?
Wol Euler: but it's also self-defence, because one of Bossette's tricks is to offload blame.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah...
Wol Euler: She says "make it 42", so I do. Later it turns out that that was wrong, should have been 44.
Wol Euler: And then _I_ get blamed and lectured for _my_ mistake.
Gaya Ethaniel: Why not send an email to confirm what's been 'dished out' by her and your disagreement on that
Gaya Ethaniel: That way at least you've got something written to show her
Wol Euler nods.
Meesha Cuttita: wol, do you work in a warehouse?
Wol Euler: No as an architect.
Meesha Cuttita: oh ok
Meesha Cuttita: i just connected what you were saying with the problems someone i know has and he works in a warehouse.... sorry
Wol Euler grins. Well, bad bosses are everywhere. Alas.
Gaya Ethaniel nods 'yes'
Meesha Cuttita: yes. exactly
Meesha Cuttita: and they all know how to swiftly blame others for their mistakes
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Meesha Cuttita: it's an art in itself
Wol Euler: and to hoard praise for themselves
Meesha Cuttita: oh yes
Meesha Cuttita: i can't do that that's why i can never be boss

Vertigo joins us, and we shuffle along the cushions. It's odd and intriguing how strong an effect group dynamics have even in Second Life, how the spacing between avatars influences the conversation.

Wol Euler: hello vertigo
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste
Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Vertigo.
Meesha Cuttita: hi Vertigo
Vertigo Ethaniel: hope im not interrupting!
Wol Euler nudges Meesha. Shift up, join us :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: Not at all Vertigo
Vertigo Ethaniel: and hello meesha, good to meet you
Wol Euler: We are slowly getting started, Vertigo. Not talking much about PaB -- except insofar as it applies to real life situations.

A rubber-clad stranger arrives wearing manacles, leg chains and an iron collar — and gagged with a strap-on dildo. Normally I would just edit her out, but her brief presence continued to echo through the conversation.

Wol Euler: hello Victime
Victime (gagged): hewwo Fiw
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Gaya Ethaniel nudges Vertigo
Victime (gagged): nife po meep you aww
Wol Euler smiles. take care.
Gaya Ethaniel: Bye...
Wol Euler: takes all kinds, as the prophet said...
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Vertigo Ethaniel: oops
Vertigo Ethaniel: yea, that was odd
Vertigo Ethaniel: but i dont judge :)
Meesha Cuttita: i happened to mention slavery earlier
Meesha Cuttita: lol
Wol Euler chuckles. indeed.
Meesha Cuttita: maybe that's how i sound talking to my boss
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Wol Euler: (much better, thanks Vertico)
Vertigo Ethaniel: hhehe
Wol Euler: hmmmm
Wol Euler: I am aware that I start to sound like an angry child when I talk to Bossette for too long.
Meesha Cuttita: that's great
Gaya Ethaniel: Understandable... thou it doesn't feel great being so Wol?
Meesha Cuttita: i just go quiet
Wol Euler: true, I have moments of Being seeing happening in parallel: as I speak, I see myself speak and realize what crap I am saying.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Wol Euler: but just can't gag myself.
Vertigo Ethaniel: hah
Wol Euler: (to continue the recent theme)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Meesha Cuttita: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: It's tiring thou... having those moments of confrontations
Gaya Ethaniel: And if suppressing at the time... it surfaces later... which again is tiring
Wol Euler: I feel quite sorry for Bossette, though, even as she annoys me. Because I can see how unhappy, dissatisfied, she is.
Wol Euler: Her life would be so much easier IMHO if she could lose this fear of being wrong.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hm... how about you Wol?
Vertigo Ethaniel: thats a tough one to lose
Meesha Cuttita: you know how they say what irritates you most in others is actually something you refuse to accept about your own personality?
Wol Euler: lol, yes, I have heard that.
Meesha Cuttita: do you think it works that way really?
Gaya Ethaniel: Not about Bossette... how do you feel about Wol in that place?

Another good question that got lost in the flow of conversation. 

Vertigo Ethaniel: hmm
Wol Euler: I do take correction much better than I used to, so yes Meesha, it has worked that way for me.
Vertigo Ethaniel: i dont think so, not in those words.. i would say that what irritates me in others is what i refuse to be myself
Gaya Ethaniel ponders...
Meesha Cuttita: i see. i was wondering about that in relation to my experiences
Wol Euler: ah, a subtle and significant distinction.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Meesha Cuttita: yes, makes sense. This way you see yourself as infinite possibilities and you just don't wish to accept certain ones.
Meesha Cuttita: you don't want to water certain seeds
Wol Euler nods
Vertigo Ethaniel: there is deep wisdom in those words
Wol Euler: hi corvi
Gaya Ethaniel ponders
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_

Corvi joins us, burning the well-after-midnight oil. 

Vertigo Ethaniel: yes, greetings corvi, welcome back
Meesha Cuttita: hi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hey Corvi
Wol Euler chuckles at Corvi's key.
Gaya Ethaniel: Key?
Wol Euler: in her back :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Wol Euler: fits the theme, we were talking about being tightly wound up.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs. I was thinking about detachment when I put it on.
Wol Euler: oh?
Gaya Ethaniel is intrigued...
Wol Euler nudges Corvi. That was your cue to tell us more.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Wol Euler: or not.
Gaya Ethaniel: Up to you <smile>
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, and smiled.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I just don't know what to say here, yet.
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I mean on this topic.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Gaya Ethaniel has found herself eating more sweets since yesterday... sun is getting lower
Vertigo Ethaniel: as a side topic gaya, any idea where i may be able to get some sort of static electricity around my av? like your fishies kinda
Vertigo Ethaniel: just random flashes of lightning
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes... I've seen two ppl who can help you
Gaya Ethaniel: Fael - when Faenik speaks / Adelene - when she types
Wol Euler: you could generate particles with a lightning-flash texture on them ...
Gaya Ethaniel: Of course Wol too
Vertigo Ethaniel: interesting
Gaya Ethaniel imagines Vertigo as a 'walking thunderstorm'
Wol Euler grins
Vertigo Ethaniel laughs, you know me too well already
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Vertigo Ethaniel: might look it up on google, any idea where to start?
Gaya Ethaniel: Textures... I believe one can create or buy them Vertigo
Gaya Ethaniel: Moon Fargis knows a lot of textures. He's one of the guardians here
Gaya Ethaniel: a lot about*
Vertigo Ethaniel: ok thanks.. sorry, back on topic :)
Gaya Ethaniel: np <smile> Sorry I can't be more help
Gaya Ethaniel: So back to Bossette... I feel sorry for all invovled Wol
Wol Euler: Gaya, you stock up on sugar in winter?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes... so I need to go up in the attic to bring down my bright light
Gaya Ethaniel doesn't want to put on weight over winter
Vertigo Ethaniel: ugh
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you get affected by it too?
Vertigo Ethaniel: i certainly have
Vertigo Ethaniel: time to start playing more hackey i think
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Will be summer where you are thou Vertigo?
Vertigo Ethaniel: its winter right now
Vertigo Ethaniel: summer still 5 or so months away
Gaya Ethaniel: ah.. sure
Wol Euler: oh, wow, you're a bottom-halfer :-)
Wol Euler: I didn't know.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: so long!
Gaya Ethaniel: Thought you have 4 seasons Vertigo?
Vertigo Ethaniel: its ok, i used to love winter, now i love all seasons, they all have their amazing moments
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Wol Euler: true, very true.
Vertigo Ethaniel: yes, its almost spring of course :)
Meesha Cuttita: how much time do you guys spend at work?
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'i c'
Corvuscorva Nightfire: 40-45 hours.
Meesha Cuttita: do you all work every day?
Meesha Cuttita: per week?
Vertigo Ethaniel: i do yes
Vertigo Ethaniel: well 5 days
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: 5 days.
Gaya Ethaniel: Atm, work from home for 'family thing' so round the clock...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: usually.
Wol Euler: hard to say, I work at home half the time and half in offices (with Bossette)
Meesha Cuttita: isee
Wol Euler: I do things that I call "work" seven days a week, anywhere from 1 hour to 12 per day
Meesha Cuttita: i want to be free of having to work
Meesha Cuttita: completely
Meesha Cuttita: i wish all work was optional
Wol Euler: from my experience changing the "having to" is easier than changing the "work"
Meesha Cuttita: hm
Gaya Ethaniel enjoys 'work' ...
Meesha Cuttita: reallyx
Wol Euler: we need money, and it must be earnd, but "having to" is a state of mind.
Meesha Cuttita: you like work?
Wol Euler: I love my work!
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like mine, too.
Meesha Cuttita: need and must is bad enough
Wol Euler: except for Bossette
Gaya Ethaniel: aw....
Wol Euler: I'm never going to retire, I shall die at my desk
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Meesha Cuttita: oh god
Meesha Cuttita: i'd rather travel
Wol Euler: because I've found work that I love doing.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Well, I don't ALWAYS like mine.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but mostly.
Meesha Cuttita: good
Meesha Cuttita: i can't seem to conform
Wol Euler: ok, then find a way to make travel your work. BEcome a journalist, or a standards-tester
Corvuscorva Nightfire: maybe work could be travel?
Meesha Cuttita: no
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Gaya Ethaniel: Meesha, there are many ways one can combine travel/work. I used to have a job with 12 weeks of overseas travel per year
Meesha Cuttita: it would be better to be completely free of deadlines
Vertigo Ethaniel: sorry, 1 sec afk, friend is here
Gaya Ethaniel: You can also become a travel writer...
Gaya Ethaniel: Many ways...
Wol Euler: well, that never happens, AFAIK. Even novelists have deadlines.
Meesha Cuttita: yes, travel writer...
Meesha Cuttita: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: You could go for VSO
Meesha Cuttita: tied up and gagged
Wol Euler: lol
Gaya Ethaniel: k
Meesha Cuttita: sorry, that's just my issues with work. I'm glad you all have found something you are happy doing
Vertigo Ethaniel: believe me, id rather not be working
Gaya Ethaniel: My current 'job', I'm not entirely happy Meesha but it's ok with me
Meesha Cuttita: what's vso?
Vertigo Ethaniel: brb
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I still hate "having" to go...especially when I'm deep in conversation in sl.
Wol Euler smiles. Care to say more about what "work" means, Meesha?
Gaya Ethaniel: http://www.vso.org.uk/
Gaya Ethaniel: k
Meesha Cuttita: yes, that's what i meant. that nagging feeling of having to do it
Meesha Cuttita: thank you
Gaya Ethaniel: np
Gaya Ethaniel gets that nagging feeling for many things...
Gaya Ethaniel: Gotta do them thou...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmmm.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Gaya Ethaniel: Hm... need to do laundry today
Wol Euler: well: or maybe not. Find someone else who wants to do them, and grant them taht favour :-)
Gaya Ethaniel laughs
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.

What is "work" then? Did our ancestors do it? 

Meesha Cuttita: women didn't use to have to work... oh happy days
Corvuscorva Nightfire: they didn't?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: which women?
Wol Euler: is that true?
Meesha Cuttita: hahaha
Wol Euler: my grandmother sure as hell did.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods.
Vertigo Ethaniel is back
Wol Euler: she ran a home and raise three kids, without any electical appliances at all.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I work much less, I think than any of my ancestresses.
Gaya Ethaniel: wb
Meesha Cuttita: yes, you're right
Wol Euler: she carried buckets of coal upstairs, and buckets of ash back down
Corvuscorva Nightfire: wb Vertigo.
Wol Euler: wb
Vertigo Ethaniel: was just showing my mate my vege garden, hes gone now
Gaya Ethaniel: My mother stays home sure but has so much to do... family affairs. It's so much work!
Wol Euler: ah :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Mine supported the immediate needs of the 6 child family with her Vegetable garden.
Meesha Cuttita: but she doen't have a boss and works on her own terms
Corvuscorva Nightfire: took care of her mother in law as well.
Gaya Ethaniel: Lovely Vertigo
Corvuscorva Nightfire: She was the boss.
Wol Euler: yep
Corvuscorva Nightfire: as am I at my job.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mostly.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Wol Euler: but very much doing what had to be done. seven days a wek.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Both of us still had "bosses" though.
Meesha Cuttita: corvi, are you the boss?
Vertigo Ethaniel: interesting, i am working towards the point where i can provide all my food needs from the land
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am an assistant manager.
Gaya Ethaniel: Being a mother is a tough tough job...
Wol Euler: great idea, vertigo.
Meesha Cuttita: i hope you are more pleasant than most bosses... :)
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Meesha Cuttita: sounds great. now all you have to worry about is the weather
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs. I doubt it. Though I work hard for those that work for me...being bossed is not pleasant.
Meesha Cuttita: how do you draw the line between work and private life
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am fortunate to work for a place that leaves each employee a bit of room for self direction.
Meesha Cuttita: for example - if you work in a public job - how do you drop the role of being say, a manager, a director.... a policeofficer...
Gaya Ethaniel: That sounds good Corvi
Gaya Ethaniel: One drops when one wants to drop after working hours?
Wol Euler: I use a change of environment, rather than talking in the office we go and sit at the curb :-)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. I don't have any problems dropping the parts of "being the boss" that aren't already parts of me.
Meesha Cuttita: sometimes i bring my work home with me... can't get it out of my head
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Wol Euler: oh, I misundestood.
Meesha Cuttita: i even dream about it...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: me too, sorry.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: What is it that sticks?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: a task or a responsibility to someone else?
Meesha Cuttita: well what someone said, what i have to do, what mistakes i have made, all these regrets and speculations
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah.
Meesha Cuttita: i wish i could just drop them at the doorstep
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that...
Wol Euler: ah, so the emotions about the job more than your job itself?
Vertigo Ethaniel: yes, that gets annoying, lying in bed and thinking up new ways to construct that website menu bar
Corvuscorva Nightfire looks at the early early hour.
Meesha Cuttita: yes, sure, the emotions
Wol Euler looks sternly and Corvi, then smiles.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that is hard for me, sometimes too..but not just at work.
Gaya Ethaniel sighs... Corvi hope not too tired
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Work is hard because it is a stretch for me to "be the boss" I am basically shy.
Meesha Cuttita: ah
Corvuscorva Nightfire looks at Wol and Gaya...I know you won't believe that.
Meesha Cuttita: i understand your position completely
Wol Euler: lol
Gaya Ethaniel: It's not about work so much... or anything else. Something more deeper that surfaces over different aspects of our lives that get triggered
Corvuscorva Nightfire: so..it is harder to let go of all the emotions that get triggered at work by doing things that are a stretch.
Meesha Cuttita: so, corvi do you feel like youre being something you're really not, like playing a role
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Corvuscorva Nightfire: sometimes I quite consciously am playing a role.
Meesha Cuttita: do you think then it is best to find a job that would suit one's personal traits - like shyness --- or to overcome shyness by doing something that is a stretch
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like my job so much, that I want to do it even though it is hard for me to do parts of it.
Gaya Ethaniel: Mostly changing places don't have a long last impact unless one's current job is very damaging etc
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but if it wasn't appealing, I would accomodate that part more.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Is your job otherwise appealing to you?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: other than...something?
Vertigo Ethaniel: i think that trying to change oneself needs to be approached with caution: ask yourself why you are trying to change? and if youll like the person on the other side

Gaya departs in search of breakfast. 

Gaya Ethaniel: Need to leave. Thanks for the conversation and sincerely hope you all have a good day/night.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Meesha Cuttita: well i get a lot of free time, and i enjoy let's say 40 % of it
Wol Euler: bye gaya, take care.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Good bye, Gaya.
Meesha Cuttita: bye gaya
Vertigo Ethaniel: aw ok, see ya later gaya
Vertigo Ethaniel: nice talking to you again
Meesha Cuttita: oh great question - the answer is actually, i would love to change
Corvuscorva Nightfire: change you or the work?
Meesha Cuttita: into someone more confident
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah.
Wol Euler reads back, overcoming versus accomodating.
Meesha Cuttita: yes
Meesha Cuttita: you are so articulate, wol
Wol Euler: My personal belief, which may be wrong, is that expecting the job (any job) to change you is asking for unhappiness.
Wol Euler: (ty)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am certain that my "acting" is not that I am going to become more confident, or even act more confident.
Wol Euler: because it might just do so, but in a completely unexpected and undesirable direction.
Vertigo Ethaniel: confidence is something that can never be achieved fully... and i think once that is realised, you come one step closer to becoming more confident
Meesha Cuttita: vertigo - really? wow. it's just a part of being a human being then - not being completely confident
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Wol Euler: no , of course not!
Vertigo Ethaniel: oh definitely
Wol Euler: heheh
Meesha Cuttita: i know what you mean, wol
Vertigo Ethaniel: wait
Vertigo Ethaniel: lol
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or..if one is completely confident, one is very very unpleasant to be around.
Meesha Cuttita: what?
Wol Euler: there's a recognized psyological trait called "impostor syndrome"
Wol Euler: the feeling that one is faking, and about to be exposed to the world as a fake.
Meesha Cuttita: and what do you do about it?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: my partner and I call it feelling like a frog.
Wol Euler: the majority of us, well over 50% hve it at least some of the time.
Vertigo Ethaniel: right, reread, understand now, continue :)
Meesha Cuttita: i see
Wol Euler: well, first thing to do is to know that it is general, normal and average.
Meesha Cuttita: but it would be nice to feel as worthy of being in the position you are in and feeling you fit in snuggly
Wol Euler: not just your personal insufficiency :-)
Meesha Cuttita: i see, wol
Vertigo Ethaniel: i agree
Meesha Cuttita: yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It would be very nice.
Wol Euler: the second thing would be to identify the places where you think you don't fit, the square corners onn the peg that should be rounded
Corvuscorva Nightfire: For me...I have to work hard not to beat myself up for those bits where I do not live up to my ideal of "boss"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and try to focus on tackling specific behaviors, one at a time.
Wol Euler: and see whether they are really square in fact, or just your perception which other do not share.
Wol Euler: exactly, Corvi.
Meesha Cuttita: so recognizing your mistakes and changing what needs to be changed
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It is NOT an easy or comfortable process.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Meesha Cuttita: then letting it go and relaxing
Wol Euler: true, and true, and true :-)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: YOu are right on, Meesha.
Meesha Cuttita: oh in words
Corvuscorva Nightfire: The problem is, it really is not easy or comfortable.
Meesha Cuttita: but in actions i am slooow
Wol Euler: and if you find a square bit that is definitely wrong, then you get out the sandpaper
Meesha Cuttita: lol
Wol Euler: and start working on it.
Vertigo Ethaniel: just dont rub too much off :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods!
Meesha Cuttita: :) hehe
Vertigo Ethaniel: the features are what make you unique
Wol Euler: indeed. Luckily it is a slow process, one can stop and measur and consider.
Meesha Cuttita: right
Wol Euler: or -- just to complete the list of possibilities -- one might say, "this job is a bad match for me, I will get a differetn job that suits me bettter"
Meesha Cuttita: hm, i guess i could give it a chance for another year and then stop and measure and see
Vertigo Ethaniel: sometimes that is the only alternative :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire hugs Wol who she thinks is utterly brilliant.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: then looks at Meesha whom she thinks is also utterly brilliant.
Wol Euler blushes and hugs back.
Meesha Cuttita: hahaha
Meesha Cuttita: you guys are all so great, thank you very very much
Wol Euler smiles. My pleasure, Meesha, I hope it helps.
Vertigo Ethaniel: :)
Meesha Cuttita: very much indeed

The topic drifts to depression and the use of anti-depressant drugs. 

Meesha Cuttita: i see so many people taking antidepressants because of pressure at work
Meesha Cuttita: i wouldn't want to do that...
Vertigo Ethaniel: no
Wol Euler: well, now, if that is the case then I wold say that your discomfort is emtirely sane and correct!
Vertigo Ethaniel: i would sooner change jobs
Vertigo Ethaniel: i know personally how substances can affect you
Wol Euler: if everyone is feeling discomfort, then it is not _your_ problem that causes it.
Vertigo Ethaniel: and i know that some are worse than others - antideps, in my opinion, are among the worst
Corvuscorva Nightfire: at your work, Meesha? or at any work?
Meesha Cuttita: yes, wol, that could be the case, but then again i see other people at work that are completely satisfied and happy
Meesha Cuttita: well we all work individually but we appear publicly
Meesha Cuttita: so it's not the same environment for everyone
Wol Euler: (apropos andi-depressants http://www.dooce.com/2007/12/13/beca...t-say-it-phone)
Meesha Cuttita: but i see some people dealing with it wonderfully and performing great, and some feel so inadequate they are fighting depressions
Wol Euler: (and [a link that turned out to be broken])
Wol Euler nods
Meesha Cuttita: thank you for the links
Wol Euler smiles. I found them helpful, and very interesting.
Meesha Cuttita: the second one doesn't seem to work
Vertigo Ethaniel: hmm
Wol Euler: oh, right, perhaps she's taken it down. It was very "raw" ...
Vertigo Ethaniel: some troubling things in that first link.. dependance being one
Wol Euler: (found it, renamed: http://dervala.net/2006/12/17/against-depression/)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: still didn't work.
Meesha Cuttita: thank you
Meesha Cuttita: it works for me
Corvuscorva Nightfire: interesting, I got it, too.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: now.
Wol Euler: if dependence occurred it would be bad, yes; but if it doesn't?
Vertigo Ethaniel: if it doesnt, substances can be a blessing for sure
Vertigo Ethaniel: but its a fine line to walk
Wol Euler: of course.
Vertigo Ethaniel: especially for someone with self doubt issues already present
Vertigo Ethaniel: i just dont think putting someone on anti-deps without a solid plan involving weening them off eventually, and alternative, non-drug based therapies, is a good idea
Vertigo Ethaniel: sorry, you struck a nerve in me
Vertigo Ethaniel: :)
Wol Euler: I noticed :-)
Wol Euler: it's ok.
Wol Euler: well, from my side it is. I hope you are OK with it?
Vertigo Ethaniel: i would rather someone was medicated and happy, than miserable
Vertigo Ethaniel: i think that says it best
Wol Euler nods
Meesha Cuttita: i heard that in the usa many children are on antidepressants
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think you are right that coming off of them ought to be a part of the plan for most of us.
Vertigo Ethaniel: not just in the US
Vertigo Ethaniel: i was "diagnosed" with ADHD, and put on ritalin
Meesha Cuttita: hm, there seems to be a drug-pushing conspiracy
Vertigo Ethaniel: i stopped taking them almost immediately, as i didnt need them
Wol Euler: it's seen as an easy fix.
Wol Euler: we (society) like easy fixes, we want something that seems to work right now, even if we strongly suspect that there will be Hell to pay tomorrow.
Meesha Cuttita: yes
Wol Euler: let me recommend a book I'm reading right now: "affluenza" by oliver james
Wol Euler: http://www.amazon.com/Affluenza-Oliv...dp/0091900115/
Meesha Cuttita: so the Buddha was a pioneer in fixing suffering
Vertigo Ethaniel: ive heard of it
Wol Euler: addresses exactly this point.
Meesha Cuttita: and today there is no time for sitting under trees, people are taking drugs
Wol Euler: yes, and he did it hte right way, looking for a very slow fix.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...buddha was brilliant.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but...the story he told was for working people as well as the affluent.
Meesha Cuttita: hm, that's part of the reason i'm sticking with this job - gives me enough time for meditation and retreats
Wol Euler: ah, that is a great advantage Meesha.
Vertigo Ethaniel: good then, sounds like a great job
Meesha Cuttita: the free time is great
Wol Euler: many people would greatly envy that.
Meesha Cuttita: oh i know, but then again, I catch myself wishing for the happines and satisfaction other people feel in performing their jobs....
Meesha Cuttita: like you, wol, you seem to love it
Wol Euler smiles. I do, I was lucky to find something that I am good at and enjoy doing
Wol Euler: and which can be done at home, when I want to do it.
Meesha Cuttita: great, so the bossette is really such a minor inconvenience in comparison with the benefits
Wol Euler: oh yes.
Meesha Cuttita: ;)
Meesha Cuttita: well it was really helpful for me talking to all of you
Meesha Cuttita: i have to go get some things done now
Wol Euler: good, I'm glad.
Vertigo Ethaniel: were here to help
Meesha Cuttita: enjoy your day / evening
Vertigo Ethaniel: many voices, one vision
Meesha Cuttita: yes, so much we have in common
Meesha Cuttita: similar problems
Meesha Cuttita: :)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Vertigo Ethaniel: its that thing called life
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Meesha Cuttita: hahaha
Meesha Cuttita: yes indeed
Wol Euler: that is a great help, I found, to realize that this Life thing happens to us all.

Meesha leaves. 

Meesha Cuttita: well ok, take care and see you around
Meesha Cuttita: bye bye
Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste, meesha
Wol Euler: bye meesha, tke care.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!
Wol Euler: I think that life is basically a negotiation with oneself: what do I need and how mch will I give to get it?
Vertigo Ethaniel: well put
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. How much will I give right this second to get it.
Wol Euler: Meesha's job that gives her time off for meditation and retreats would seem like paradise to a street sweeper, or a teacher who has to be there every day.
Vertigo Ethaniel: oh yes
Wol Euler: but we (society) don't like negotiation because it takes time. We want a solution right now, even if it doesn't satisfy us.
Vertigo Ethaniel nods
Vertigo Ethaniel: very sad, that is
Vertigo Ethaniel: time is there to be taken, not to be shunned
Wol Euler: yep
Corvuscorva Nightfire confesses to a right now kind of attitude.
Vertigo Ethaniel: the best kind :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I want...to fix everything the minute I find it...so I refuse to look at anything I can't fix RGHT NOW...not exactly the best kind you mean.

Vertigo leaves, and we all follow. 

Vertigo Ethaniel: im sorry, if youll excuse me, im thinking of curling up and watching the news, then heading to bed
Vertigo Ethaniel: it was good to see you guys again
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles. Gnight!
Wol Euler: ok, vertigo, good night, take care.
Vertigo Ethaniel: namaste
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Namaste.
Wol Euler: and you should be in bed too, If I may presume to say so.
Wol Euler: how are you?
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs. I'm ok.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and of course you can.
Corvuscorva Nightfire leans into Wol a bit.
Wol Euler: I've had far too much coffee and no food this morning, I am shivering and jittery and jumping about.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods..I must go, too, Wol.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!!!
Wol Euler: take care, sleep well, be happy and at ease
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thank you.