2008.08.11 07:00 - Like "Gristle"

 Pia Iger is the sub guardian. She posted this log with its title and comments.

A little guardian talk first:

Adelene Dawner: 'lo Pia, Avastu :)
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Pia Iger: Hi, Adelene.
Pia Iger: btw, Avastu, its nice of you to volunteer the redeco of Hall of Appearance.
Pia Iger: I look forward to seeing its new look.
Adelene Dawner: That reminds me - is there somewhere I can donate lindens for that?
Adelene Dawner: Hi Doug
Pia Iger: I don't know, have not heard about the donation. But Storm is leading the redeco team, maybe you can ask him?
Adelene Dawner: Ok :)

Later I found Storm did send a detailed email regarding the redecoration project.

Doug dropped in and we tried to understand one of his new observation.  

doug Sosa: morning!
Pia Iger: morning, Doug
doug Sosa: hi.
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
doug Sosa: and to you.
Pia Iger: anyone wants to discuss anything? (Pia is sub guardian).
doug Sosa: the nine sec and the first minute of waking up.
doug Sosa: Why are they so different?
Pia Iger: Doug, you mean you experience a big difference?
doug Sosa: yes.
Pia Iger: what is the first min of waking up to you? I always feel I got great insight when I got up.
doug Sosa: In the 9 sec the world is allowed to flow, but waking up, which might be the same, it isn't. the world is more like grizzle than like the 9 sec.
doug Sosa: Yes, the waking is not unpleasant and often a time of insight. but yet..
Pia Iger: grizzle means?
doug Sosa: misspelt, i think "gristle" as in sinews.
doug Sosa: The tough parts of meat.
Adelene Dawner: like not wanting to wake up, Doug? Having trouble getting started?
doug Sosa: no. i love to wake, jump up easily, but that first moment is not like the 9sec.
Pia Iger: so, it is tough to start a mundane day, but in 9 sec the day flows more easily?
Adelene Dawner: 'lo Tahuti
Pia Iger: Hi, Tahuti,
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Tahuti Thor: hey everyone
doug Sosa: no, no mundane days. . lets see?
doug Sosa: the 9 sec is letting go. waking is gathering in. make sense?
Tahuti Thor: hello Avastu
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Tahuti Thor: hello Doug
doug Sosa: hi Tahuti.
Tahuti Thor: hey Pia
Tahuti Thor: hey Adelene
Adelene Dawner: :)
Pia Iger: yes, Doug, waking is getting back to the role of 'I".
doug Sosa: that seems to be a major part.
doug Sosa: the I seems to have a major hold onthat moment. it reconstructs itself, whereas in the 9 sec, it is gone.
Adelene Dawner: hmm
Pia Iger: so waking is take on the identities, 9-sec is take off them.
Adelene Dawner: if it was really gone in that 9 sec, wouldn't you still get the feeling of it reconstructing itself afterward?
doug Sosa: like in my sentence above, still not awake, i leave out the spaces between words.
Adelene Dawner: :)
doug Sosa: :)
Pia Iger: I can feel the "gristle" of starting a day...

Tahuti sat down and spoke up.  

Tahuti Thor: i think the "I" reconstructs itself whenever it has to think of its relative position to the world esp in social contexts and moements where it has to defend itself (fear/desire)
Tahuti Thor: moments*
Adelene Dawner: That sounds closer to my experience, Tahuti.
doug Sosa: "relative position in the world." That feels profound. In the 9 sec we do not need it.
Pia Iger: To function in human society, it seems inevitable we need to weigh situations, and take "action" (similar to actors).
Pia Iger: it is far from the freedom we feel in 9-sec
doug Sosa: Yet I don't seem to have difficulty entering the 9 sec while "acting" with others. I can "see" them and even speak as if it were a flow I am not part of.
Pia Iger: how can we find the connection or smooth transition from 9-sec to 'wake up".
Adelene Dawner: Agreed, Pia. The difference in descriptions is that you and Doug seem ready/prepared/incorporated to do that all the time - if Tahuti's description is accurate of what I do, he's describing only getting ready to do that when it's actually necessary.
doug Sosa: Great distinction.
Adelene Dawner: And I've tried it both ways, not with PaB but with a similar brain-function, and I'll tell you, the as-needed way works a lot better, at least for me.
doug Sosa: good conversation. thanks. I must go. bye.
Adelene Dawner: ok, see you later Doug.

Doug left swiftly as usual. We continue to digest  the "I".

Tahuti Thor: and while playing a game of sports you dont need the "I" -- its like you are lost in the game
Pia Iger: some "I' is easy to take on, some "I" takes efforts.
Adelene Dawner: ...like what?
Pia Iger: in work place, an example of efforts.
Adelene Dawner: o.O I think I'm lost.
Pia Iger: Tahuti said in sports, you don't need the "I'. I think of in the situation of work place, you need make more efforts to play your role.
Adelene Dawner: Ah, that. I wouldn't call such roles 'I' - they're roles, simple as that, and the epitome of things that one can wear lightly.
Tahuti Thor: there is that "flow" in sports that Doug refered to

A new female AV walked in and fled in a second.

Adelene Dawner: Hi xxx
xxx: hi
xxx: Wha is this place?
xxx: I'm scared, bye
Pia Iger: woops, I was just typing.
Tahuti Thor: hi xxx
Pia Iger: (how come she felt scared right away?)
Adelene Dawner: I looked at her profile - complete newbie on her first day here.
Pia Iger: ok. scared by unkown.
Adelene Dawner: yup

Return to our topic.

Pia Iger: Tahuti, can you expand on the "flow" in sports? anywhere else can we find the "flow"?
Tahuti Thor: maybe while watching a movie and you forget u are there
Tahuti Thor: dancing
Tahuti Thor: losing self while listening to music
Pia Iger: I think we touched a critical point here. How to have the "flow" found in 9-sec also available in the rest of our day time.
Pia Iger: not just flow in 9-sec, also flow in whole day.
Pia Iger: Avastu, you don't want to say anything?
Avastu Maruti: About what, my friend?

How can I answer Avastu's question to my question ? :p

Meanwhile, Tahuti's thoughts were flowing.

Tahuti Thor: the "I" manifest as result of the mind seeking an experience other than the one its currently in (eg, seeking a particular outcome) and having to calculate its experience in relation to the rest of the world.....it especially and more forcefully manifest in social contexts because the calculation relative to other humans requires much mental processing
Tahuti Thor: ?
Adelene Dawner: So... don't calculate. Just do what's in front of you.
Tahuti Thor: so if u can accept your experiences as it is .....all throughout dailylife.....then that will be the thing to do
Tahuti Thor: u can calculate but u have to accept all experiences as u calculate
Tahuti Thor: i dunno.....i see it as 2 conditions that are required for "I" to manifest
Pia Iger: It seems inevitable for us to survive in society, the calculating.
Pia Iger: the long term planning
Tahuti Thor: u can do that....u just have to accept your experience as it is
Tahuti Thor: like u can do math and not have a self
Adelene Dawner: I'm just a little lost at your wording, Tahuti, but I think I get it - in order for 'I' to happen, it sounds like there has to be something you want, and an attempt to get it (or figure out how to get it - same thing)
Tahuti Thor: not exactly.....
Tahuti Thor: u can want something but if you fail at getting it.....then u have to accept it
Tahuti Thor: and the I shouldnt manifest
Adelene Dawner: Yes... there's two kinds of 'want', and the one that's not attached to the idea of having the thing doesn't trigger self. I've never found a good short way of wording that, though.
Tahuti Thor: u reach for an apple.....and someone grabs the apple before you......if u dont accept that experience
Tahuti Thor: and u begin questioning that is my apple then the "I" will come up
Adelene Dawner nods.
Adelene Dawner: Different way of putting it, but the same kind of thing, yes.
Pia Iger: I guess. two wants. one is reach out, the other is just open up. The latter is less "I"
Tahuti Thor: and i used calculation cause i dont see an "i" in the unconsciousness
Tahuti Thor: only in the conscious (or ego) do i see an "I"
Tahuti Thor: to control is "I"
Tahuti Thor: control = seekinig particular outcome
Pia Iger: The question would be: are we able to give up "control" or "I" beyond 9-sec/meditations? just follow the flows all the time?
Adelene Dawner: It's definitely possible for longer than 9 seconds ^.^
Pia Iger: ^.^
Tahuti Thor: you have to become meditative practioner
Tahuti Thor: and able to keep the "flow" despite all the flunctuations and changes that appear in awareness
Pia Iger: or as we try to do radically here, just drop, substract, the "control" or "I"
Adelene Dawner: Which is not as hard as it sounds, at least if you're not going to insist on perfection in it.
Adelene Dawner: [7:28] Pia Iger: To function in human society, it seems inevitable we need to weigh situations, and take "action" (similar to actors). [7:29] Adelene Dawner: Agreed, Pia. The difference in descriptions is that you and Doug seem ready/prepared/incorporated to do that all the time - if Tahuti's description is accurate of what I do, he's describing only getting ready to do that when it's actually necessary.
Tahuti Thor: like u said earlier i think there is a subtle "I" and a gross "I"
Tahuti Thor: we definitely want to rid of the gross "I"

Pia Iger: On the other side, we are so used to "control" or "I", it is unknown to us what it be like if we drop them totally.
Pia Iger: as xxx,she was scared and ran away because she never encountered us before.
Tahuti Thor: the state of mind u experienced in that 9sec....that is the standard

Could be ? !

Tahuti Thor: whatever u do in life that leads u away from that state of mind is wrong
Adelene Dawner: Well, I can't speak for *totally*, but I tend to find myself dropping them for hours at a time (and always have - it's kind of alarming how natural this kind of thing is to me) and... people around you might not like it much, but there's nothing uncomfortable about it.
Tahuti Thor: and whatever u do that moves toward and keeps u in that state of mind is right
Pia Iger: that sounds right...
Pia Iger: both Tahuti and Adelene said.
Adelene Dawner nods.
Pia Iger: how about wrapping up this session here?
Adelene Dawner: Sounds okay to me
Pia Iger: I enjoyed the talk.
Tahuti Thor: ok
Adelene Dawner: yes, it was a good one :)
Pia Iger: Avastu, how about you?
Avastu Maruti: yes, my friend
Tahuti Thor: see u friends :)
Pia Iger: see you all later.
Tahuti Thor: until next time :)