2008.08.19 19:00 - A more scientific perspective

The Guardian for this evening was Sylectra Darwin. 

Sylectra Darwin: Hi Steven.
stevenaia Michinaga: nice crowd
Sylectra Darwin: we seem to have the place to ourselves. :)
stevenaia Michinaga: anyone else here?
stevenaia Michinaga: rezzing
Sylectra Darwin: Not that I can see.
Sylectra Darwin: Good to see you, even if you are gray.
stevenaia Michinaga: you are stillr exxing, what's being back like?
stevenaia Michinaga: rezzing
Sylectra Darwin: I have a code in my doze.
stevenaia Michinaga: what;s that mean?
stevenaia Michinaga: hi thorberg
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello
Sylectra Darwin: The apartment people said I have to wait until Aug. 28 which is a blessing because I had no idea how I was going to pack everything in 4 days.
Sylectra Darwin: Hi Thorberg!
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello, Sylectra
Sylectra Darwin: I caught a cold over the weekend, probably on the plane.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, mamzing how that works
Sylectra Darwin: dry air and lots of company in a small space. :)
Sylectra Darwin: was useless at work today but I was there.
Sylectra Darwin: I signed stuff and edited stuff, mostly.
stevenaia Michinaga: I ahd a busy day, always optimistic, a strange place to be, wonders if optimisum is a delusion
Sylectra Darwin: Glad you were busy.
Sylectra Darwin: Thorberg, how are you?
stevenaia Michinaga: I think it's jsut the begining of a very busy period
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi Rowan
Rowan Masala: hello

Thorberg Nordlicht: pondering whether "optimism is a delusion"
Sylectra Darwin: welcome Rowan.
Rowan Masala: thanks Sylectra
Sylectra Darwin: Will you sit?
Rowan Masala: Hi Thor
stevenaia Michinaga: as could be any other "state"
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello
Rowan Masala: yes, in a sec. don't let me interrupt
stevenaia Michinaga: pesemisum, sadness, happyness
stevenaia Michinaga: can't you programer types make a spell checker for SL?
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Dakini
Sylectra Darwin: hehe
Sylectra Darwin: Hello Dakini!
Dakini Rhode: steve it would be no fun without the typos :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: <bait>if all states are illusions, what is not an illusion</bait>
stevenaia Michinaga: lol
doug Sosa: hi all.
stevenaia Michinaga: the question i pose
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello doug
stevenaia Michinaga: and you typed
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Doofus
Sylectra Darwin: join us, Doofus. Love the name :)
Doofus Amat: Hi! what are you guys talking about?
stevenaia Michinaga: the delusion of optimisum
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Sylectra Darwin: whether optimism is real
Sylectra Darwin: Doofus, have you been to a Play as Being discussion before?

Thorberg Nordlicht: nothing yet; steve suggested "optimism is a delusion" but nobody's taken the bait yet
Dakini Rhode: i agree with you steve
Sylectra Darwin: Doug, hello.
Doofus Amat: nope... is new to me...
Dakini Rhode: hi Doofus :)
Doofus Amat: Hi Dakini
Sylectra Darwin: Okay Doofus, just to get you started,
doug Sosa: hi selec
Dakini Rhode: Thorberg, you look great, fishing?
Doofus Amat: ok?
stevenaia Michinaga: wonders where the delusion ends and what is left, is happiness a delusion?
doug Sosa: my chat is not taking..
Thorberg Nordlicht: hmm, not fishing in particular; just my "exploring SL" look
stevenaia Michinaga: jsut to attempt to dissappoint everyone
Sylectra Darwin: Play as Being is a discussion about ways of altering or clarifying your perceptions through a number of different methods but often including meditation.
Doofus Amat: ok? Perceptions of what?
Sylectra Darwin: The core Play as Being practice involves 9 seconds of focused thought, four times per hour, each hour you are awake.
Dakini Rhode: anything which has conditions is basically illusory
Sylectra Darwin: Well, some say perceptions of being, or God, if you will. Up to you.
Doofus Amat: ok
stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Play_As_Being_in_a_Nutshell
doug Sosa: and i say, at times, illusions are real.
Sylectra Darwin: The group notes any new perceptions from the practice perhaps in a journal and then people can talk about it in any of four Play as Being meetings offered per day.
Thorberg Nordlicht: and our conversation is recorded and posted to the wiki
Doofus Amat: Are scientists allowed? Or not metaphysial enough?
stevenaia Michinaga: I agree Doug
doug Sosa: scientists are alomost the core and very welcome - providing that science too can be explored for assumptions..
Thorberg Nordlicht: are Scientists allowed? depends on whether you "believe" in Scientism
Sylectra Darwin: Doofus, yes, scientists are definitely allowed.
Sylectra Darwin: Here is a link to the wiki which helps explain more:
http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Sylectra Darwin: Actually Play as Being is an extension of science.
Doofus Amat: science is about questionig and attempting to answer the basis of science
Sylectra Darwin: You start with what you know and can measure, and explore through mental awareness what you may not be able to scientifically measure, and see how it impacts your day.
doug Sosa: and science is a plaything of being
stevenaia Michinaga: we do the same with reality
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Leo
Sylectra Darwin: Hello Leo - join us?
Thorberg Nordlicht: many of us take a Buddhist perspective and Buddhism is definitely experimental
doug Sosa: leo, come sit.
Doofus Amat: but lots of science is unmeasurable and is unknown ... and can only prevail though mathematical reasoning
Leo Margules: hello boys
Doofus Amat: for example 'where we came from'?
Sylectra Darwin: Good poing, Doofus.
Sylectra Darwin: point
doug Sosa: the identification of sceince with math seems to me a very incomplete science.
stevenaia Michinaga: having inerta issues, Leo?
Sylectra Darwin: Leo, can you see the cushions?
Doofus Amat: yes very... but is an attempt only to do the best that we can
Sylectra Darwin: Right, of course.
doug Sosa: yes.
Sylectra Darwin: With the knowledge that we still cannot know everything.
Sylectra Darwin: Leo, if you right click or ctrl-click the cushion you can choose "sit" form the wheel menu.
doug Sosa: but "the best we can" is biased by the culture science finds itself part of. As Galaieo says in Brecht's play, "see the gunnery over there. That is why they accept waht I say."
Doofus Amat: I think it mayt be possible to explain things but not to predict them as they are too chaotic or dynamical once you get beyond a simple system
Leo Margules: i'love to speak about the science
Leo Margules: but in this moment
Leo Margules: my scientific problem is how to sit here
Sylectra Darwin: haha, good point, Leo, just right click with your mouse and choose "sit"
stevenaia Michinaga: Leo, in this group we record our sessions and post them on a blog.wiki, is that ok with you?
doug Sosa: it takes years of practice :)
Sylectra Darwin: or if you have a Mac, just crtl-click and choose Sit
Doofus Amat: : )
doug Sosa: to sit..
Sylectra Darwin: perfect.
Leo Margules: thanks a lot
Sylectra Darwin: anytime :)
Doofus Amat: Science says that there are only 4 forces that make up everything... do you agree?
Sylectra Darwin: what four, Doofus?
stevenaia Michinaga: is it ok to record you leo?
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Threedee
Doofus Amat: according to physics: gravity is one that holds us to the mat and holds our air to the earth
Doofus Amat: and holds us to the sun.
Doofus Amat: This is one.
Sylectra Darwin: Hi Threedee.
Dakini Rhode: a snow lion :)
Sylectra Darwin: OK, Doofus, gravity.
Doofus Amat: OK., two?
Sylectra Darwin: Sure.
Doofus Amat: Is the Electro-magnetice force.
Sylectra Darwin: ah yes.
Doofus Amat: Responsible for
Leo Margules: do you speak about the fisical powers in the nature or speak too the spiritual forces?
Doofus Amat: Chemistry of all forms
Threedee Shepherd: hello, a bit late, I'll try to catch on
Doofus Amat: Only Science's decsription of reality. As 4 forces that comprize 'everything'
Dakini Rhode: folks, please excuse me, I need to leave - nice chatting :)
Doofus Amat: So EM is 2.
Doofus Amat: Boring?
doug Sosa: Aristotle spoke of four causes. They are not dissimilar,
doug Sosa: Boring is the fifth force.
Doofus Amat: yes perhaps is true?
Doofus Amat: 3 is the 'weak' force
Doofus Amat: 4. is the strong force.
Doofus Amat: And that is all there is ... according to Godless Science
Doofus Amat: but isn;t that a little thin? And withouth satisfaction ?
doug Sosa: ok, my problem with that kind of analysis. What holds the horse in position on a chess board? The rules of the game. The reality is, the form of things is really important and should not be left out as a force.
stevenaia Michinaga: and what describes all of this... a human mind
Sylectra Darwin: haha.. the observer.
Doofus Amat: Physics says that all things are possible,.... but only for a short amount of time.
Sylectra Darwin: Yes, Doofus, I think it's a little thin to limit ones's awareness to the four fources.
Doofus Amat: And if less than thew smallest element of time; a chronon, it is not realizable
stevenaia Michinaga: the forces do not comprise awareness, jsut the nature of nature
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pema
doug Sosa: hi :)
Doofus Amat: I agree with you... but I'm talking only of what Science says... not what most people belive
Pema Pera: hi everybody!
Sylectra Darwin: Nice to see you Pema
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello, Pema
Pema Pera: same here, Syl!
Rowan Masala: hi Pema
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pema
Leo Margules: hello pema
Pema Pera: don't let me interrupt!
Sylectra Darwin: We are talking about the four forces of nature in science and why they might be a little thin to encompass the whole picture.
Pema Pera: four, or two, or one . . . :)
Rowan Masala nods
Doofus Amat: yeahhh. even thinner. Science postulates that the 4 were one in the beginning.
Pema Pera: a fascinating topic, but very little progress has been made in the last 30 years, in practice
doug Sosa: .37 accounts for everyting
Pema Pera: I'm so glad I went into astrophysics, and not in particle physics!
Doofus Amat: 42
Pema Pera: :)
Rowan Masala: heh
Sylectra Darwin: :)
Pema Pera: I was doing a double grad studies program in both
Leo Margules: I'm realy exciting here, the people is speaking about interesting topics.
Pema Pera: had to decide which 30 years ago . . . .
Leo Margules: please how can find us tomorrow or other day?
Doofus Amat: some interesting progress....
Sylectra Darwin: Oh sure Leo, let me get you the schedule and wiki page.
Pema Pera: 1 am 7 am 1 pm 7 pm every day, Leo
Pema Pera: same place
Sylectra Darwin:
http://playasbeing.wik.is/
stevenaia Michinaga: menu: WORLD:CREATE LANDMARK HERE
Leo Margules: thanks
stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell
Leo Margules declined your inventory offer.
Doofus Amat: what do you do now Pema?
Pema Pera: half astrophysics, half interdisciplinary studies, very broadly speaking
Doofus Amat: student?
Pema Pera: no, professor
stevenaia Michinaga: do we ever stop being students?
Pema Pera: hehe
doug Sosa: Half interstellar half interdisciplinary
Pema Pera: hahaha
Doofus Amat: Me. I dont want to be...
Pema Pera: kira, the sound of half a star twinkling
Pema Pera: :)
Threedee Shepherd: Doofus: 4 fources, one grand force, 14 string dimensions--still how do we all come to be here?
Doofus Amat: I work in a my vineyard... a simple life but very connected with reality
doug Sosa: The other half thinking.
Rowan Masala: Excuse me, all. Must go.
Pema Pera: sounds great, Doofus!
doug Sosa: May I chnage the subject..?
Threedee Shepherd: bye Rowan
Pema Pera: Bye, oops
Pema Pera: fast exit
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Rowan, and next time Doofus, you bring the refreshments
Leo Margules: Bye Bye, have a beautifull day. see you in other oportunitiy.
Pema Pera: Bye Leo!
Sylectra Darwin: OK Leo, come bac soon.
Doofus Amat: ok? Scotch ok?
Pema Pera: Hi Nostrum!
Nostrum Forder: Hi, folks.
doug Sosa: Today very intense meting on climate change, but not very fruitful. i suggested we just open up and talk about
Sylectra Darwin: Hi Nos!
stevenaia Michinaga: you know my weakness, was thinking wine, but prefer scothc
doug Sosa: what was on our minds.
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Nos
Doofus Amat: I get kinda tired onf Wine : )
Pema Pera: Feel free to join us, Nostrum
doug Sosa: of the discussion
doug Sosa: opened up.
doug Sosa: Conversation soon shifted to the role of the facebook generation in a serious climate change effort. the whole atmosphere
Doofus Amat: So question:
Doofus Amat: If we carry on...this way.
Doofus Amat: Hw lonmg till we hit a global instability and runaway temp ++++
Pema Pera: (have you been here before, Nostrum?)
Nostrum Forder: (yes, I sat in a few weeks ago, thanks)
Pema Pera: nobody knows, Doofus
Pema Pera: (yw)
Doofus Amat: They did a vote over here the other day... withb 200 CEO's in a room.
Sylectra Darwin: what was decided?
Doofus Amat: Put that question... overwhelming answer was 10 years to turn it around
stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t think you can vote on global instibility and get an answer
Sylectra Darwin: wow, I think that's shorter than Gore gave it in his book.
Doofus Amat: Was assessing opinions on CEO's in SV only
Sylectra Darwin: hmm
Threedee Shepherd: Dooofus: What if they were wrong and it is already too late?
Doofus Amat: Panel was stanford proff and CEO of AMAT
Sylectra Darwin: I just got back from a gathering in the mountains of New Mexico called Gathering of Circles.
Doofus Amat: My answer to that is: Drink Heavily
stevenaia Michinaga: and to think we started this discussion about optimisum
Sylectra Darwin: It's a group of people that use some native american inspired rituals to help themselves and each other to be better people.
Nostrum Forder: hehe. Eccclesiastes.
Nostrum Forder: (too many c's)
Sylectra Darwin: The medicine woman there said she was hopeful about the coming global warming crisis.
Doofus Amat: As opposed to manic consumers.
Pema Pera: what did you do in the weekend, Syl? Mostly talk, or other forms of practice or sharing?
Threedee Shepherd: and Syl, I am interested in the role "ritual" played for you.
Sylectra Darwin: This was two weekends ago. We did talk a lot. But we also did a women's bundle ceremony.
Sylectra Darwin: Oh ritual was big in this gathering.
Pema Pera: women's bundle?
Sylectra Darwin: They tried to be very respectful of Native American ways.
Sylectra Darwin: women's bundle, yes. This is a bundle wrapped in animal skin that contains meaningful things contributed by the women who attend Gathering of Circles each year.
Sylectra Darwin: They don't have to be expensive - just significant in some way.
Sylectra Darwin: I contributed a bandanna that I bought and wore during a recent family reunion - the first of my whole family in 20 years.
Sylectra Darwin: Each woman shares why she is contributing the item , if she wishes.
Pema Pera: a great concrete way of sharing!
Sylectra Darwin: Then we pass the wrapped bundle and say what we would take from it and what we would give that we have in abundance.
Sylectra Darwin: yes!
Sylectra Darwin: I said I gave courage to act when needed in the right way.
Sylectra Darwin: And I asked the bundle to give me profound and meaningful relationships.
Sylectra Darwin: This is only one of many rituals we participated in.
Sylectra Darwin: Great group of people.
Threedee Shepherd: Syl: Is it meaningful for me to ask how you observed/were the ritual from a *9-sec* perspective?
Sylectra Darwin: hmmm, a really interesting question, Threedee!
Sylectra Darwin: I will try to answer.
Sylectra Darwin: I felt that the more I tried to get my ego out of the experience, the more completely I experienced it.
Doofus Amat: excus me.. have to go. Was pleasure listening to you all. bye
Sylectra Darwin: K, Doofus
Sylectra Darwin: Thanks for coming.
stevenaia Michinaga: join us again sometime
Pema Pera: bye Doofus
Doofus Amat: See ya
Sylectra Darwin: It was very profound to work on totally listening to the other people speaking, in the women's bundle ceremony as well as the give away ceremony which included everyone.
Pema Pera: it is so nice to relate to thoughts and feelings and emotions through gestures relating to things outside our own heads/bodies . . . . we do far too little of that in our society
Sylectra Darwin: yes.
Sylectra Darwin: I love the way the Native American peole connect with nature, in particular.
Sylectra Darwin: They are a very environmentalist group, but they believe we will through hard work make it past the current crisis.
Sylectra Darwin: I asked them why they thought so, and they could only say that they felt we finally had a preponderance of the right people who had their hearts in the right place.
Sylectra Darwin: They related it to the Great Peace.
Sylectra Darwin: Has anyone heard of this?
Sylectra Darwin: I guess it's a coming together of all the tribes in the world toward a common purpose.
stevenaia Michinaga: no
Sylectra Darwin: My first time at this group, so I was guessing :)
Sylectra Darwin: This was a group my mom attended every year for 15 years and she was well loved there.
Sylectra Darwin: I worried about how they would see her somewhat more worldly daughter but they welcomed me happily.
Pema Pera: it sounds like a great group!
Pema Pera: How many people are involved?
Sylectra Darwin: About 50, it looked like.
Sylectra Darwin: They all camped out in the forests of New Mexico.
stevenaia Michinaga: were you the average age?
Sylectra Darwin: Many were recovering alcoholics but not all.
Sylectra Darwin: No, I would say most were a bit older, but I saw several kids.
Sylectra Darwin: And lots of dogs :)
Sylectra Darwin: I didn't participate in sweat lodges this time though they had several.
Threedee Shepherd: I am thinking how ritualo can confine or raise awareness and would like to explore that topic some time, perhaps at another meeting, or just in a discussion.
Threedee Shepherd: *ritual
Sylectra Darwin: Oh that's a great topic, Threedee!
Sylectra Darwin: We could fill a whole hour on that alone.
Pema Pera: yes, Hara Krishna people come to mind . . . .
Pema Pera: very dedicated, often also rather narrow
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps next tuesday then
Pema Pera: sure
Threedee Shepherd: ok
Pema Pera: I gotta go too
Thorberg Nordlicht: me too; dinner calls in RL
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Pema
Sylectra Darwin: OK, thanks everyone for coming.
Threedee Shepherd: good night/day,
Pema Pera: bye Steve!
Pema Pera: and bye everybody!
Sylectra Darwin: Bye Pema!