That morning at 1 am, I (Pema) was the guardian. Adelene, Claire, Gaya, Kat and Terri were already assembled when I arrived in the pavilion.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: Hi Gaya, Kat, Adelene!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Kat Lemieux: HEllo, Pema & Adelene
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Pema Pera: Hi Terri!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: Hi Claire!
Terri Holrych: hi Pema
Kat Lemieux: HI Teri, Claire
Terri Holrych: hi All
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Terri Holrych: Hi Kat
Terri Holrych: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: My last session at PaB, Stim raised another possible topic/exercise
Pema Pera: yes, Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel looks up her diary ‘one sec’
Pema Pera: “my last session”, you mean Monday, 1 am?
Gaya Ethaniel: [2008/08/25 13:52] Stim Morane: Being vs feedback about Being.
Pema Pera: I only saw Adams and you present there, not Stim
Gaya Ethaniel: Log not up yet… Stim didn’t have time to explain what he meant
Pema Pera: ah, my as in “which you attended” not “where you were the guardian”
Claire Beltran: How long will this session go on?
Claire Beltran: I need to take a shower…
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry yes one I attended last…
Pema Pera: we never know, Claire
Pema Pera: what did he mean, Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: Have no idea… he had to leave
Claire Beltran: I’ll just sit here for now, then… but I’ll be afk.
Pema Pera: well, then we won’t have any idea either, I think :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: k
Gaya Ethaniel: Adele was there… did you understand where Stim was coming from Adele?
Adelene Dawner: …when, Gaya? Refresh my memory?
Gaya Ethaniel: Threedee started to relate his experience about alternate and different space
Gaya Ethaniel: How his experience is essentially somatic
Adelene Dawner: Ah.
Adelene Dawner: I understood what Threedee was saying, though I don’t think I could really put better words to it. What were you saying about Stim, though?
Pema Pera: Hmmm, perhaps we can talk about something that is actually being discussed here, rather than trying to reconstruct a previous session?
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure I just wanted to follow up but that’s ok
Pema Pera: Terri, how have you been? Long time no see!
Terri Holrych: oh i have been busy
Pema Pera: Gaya, if you know what Stim meant we can follow up, of course
Terri Holrych: sorry i have been absent
Pema Pera: but if we don’t know, we can’t very well
Pema Pera: np, Terri!
Terri talked about her building project
Terri Holrych: i was building all the time
Terri Holrych: lol
Pema Pera: what did you built?
Terri Holrych: a sim
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes seems like that Pema. Let’s leave it for now.
Pema Pera: k
Terri Holrych: Ryusho helped
Kat Lemieux: That’s pretty exciting!
Pema Pera: a whole sim?
Terri Holrych: yes
Terri Holrych: you know how i rented a few parcels
Terri Holrych: the owner let me buid on the whole sim
Terri Holrych: build
Terri Holrych: like gift
Kat Lemieux: Nice!
Pema Pera: wow!
Terri Holrych: it was very nice of him
Terri Holrych: thanks
Kat Lemieux: My museum is hoping to get a similar “gift” of another island soon
Terri Holrych: look up Gaden gardens sometime
Terri Holrych: it was an accident i wanst looking for it
Terri Holrych: lol
Pema Pera: lucky you!
Kat Lemieux: The best kind of gift!
Terri Holrych: hehe its so mysterious
Terri Holrych: being a noob its hard but i try
Pema Pera: I don’t think you’re still a noob Terri!
Terri Holrych: thanks
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: so ISM is getting a third island, Kat?
Pema Pera: or just a wish?
And Kat talked about her building project, for the International Spaceflight Museum.
Kat Lemieux: Well, we have to finish the proposal, but the CEO told me it’s a virtual shoo-in
Pema Pera: which CEO?
Kat Lemieux: IT’s from NMC
Kat Lemieux: Larry Pixel
Pema Pera: ah!
Terri Holrych: cool
Pema Pera: within SciLands?
Kat Lemieux: No, over at the NMC area
Kat Lemieux: We’re calling it a “branch”
Pema Pera: isn’t that a problem, to break things up?
Kat Lemieux: I don’t think so.
Kat Lemieux: We’re going to have different stuff ther
Kat Lemieux: IT will let us have a fresh start, do things right as regards copy permissions, etc.
Pema Pera: while continuing the old place?
Kat Lemieux: Also, instead of historical builds, we’re planning to explore current and proposed space exploration
Pema Pera: (we are talking about the International Spaceflight Museum, of which Kat is the Director)
Kat Lemieux: YEs, we will definitely keep the old stuff running
Kat Lemieux: But we’ve run out of space, and the builders are getting bored
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: For us, too, the question has arisen
Pema Pera: where to grow Play as Being land here on the mainland
Pema Pera: or get our own islands
Terri Holrych: wow
Kat Lemieux: Larry had offered to pay to move our existing islands to NMC, but we didn’t think it would be cool to abandon the SciLands
Pema Pera: since we are creating forests, we like to keep it all here
Pema Pera: so that you can really walk from one place to another
Pema Pera: I bet Larry would consider it cool :)
Kat Lemieux: Mainland has a lot of advantages, certainly.
Kat Lemieux: Right, Larry is doing a little bit of empire building, apparently
Pema Pera: a bit?
Kat Lemieux: Well, a LOT of empire building!
Pema Pera: hehe, understatement of the month :)
Kat Lemieux: ;-)
Gaya Ethaniel: Er… who is Larry?
Kat Lemieux: Larry Pixel is CEO of the New Media Consortium
Terri Holrych: o
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Kat Lemieux: IT’s a large RL organization who also have a lot of islands in SL
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok thanks Kat
Kat Lemieux: YW
I switched the topic to the PaB exploration.
Pema Pera: Kat, if I may ask
Kat Lemieux: I’ve known him for a couple of years
Pema Pera: did you get any chance to play a bit with the 9-sec idea of Play as Being?
Kat Lemieux: Well, no
Pema Pera: haha, that’s fine!
Pema Pera: I’m just curious
Kat Lemieux: My schedule is so mixed up that I didn’t really think it was feasible
Pema Pera: no 9 seconds left in your schedule?
Pema Pera: (just teasing)
Kat Lemieux: And I was worried about distracting me from stuff I really need to do
Kat Lemieux: IT’s more a problem of the interruptions, I think
Terri Holrych: i felt the same way
Kat Lemieux: I find it too difficult to concentrate sometimes as it is, much less having the alarm go off every so ofthen
Pema Pera: perhaps you are viewing it as far heavier than most of us do — just a few times a day, take a few deep breaths — is that an interruption? That is really all we start with, and what many people do
Terri Holrych: o
Pema Pera: and even that is interesting, to see what happens
Kat Lemieux: There’s also a matter of motivation. I’m not sure what it’s supposed to accomplish, so difficult to think of why to do it
Pema Pera: the truly amazing things is that a few deep breaths can change a day
Pema Pera: AH!
Pema Pera: no assumptions
Pema Pera: just do it :)
Pema Pera: but I can give an explanation if you want one :-)
Kat Lemieux: Well, yes, but deep breaths on an appointed schedule seems so…. rigid
Pema Pera: doesn’t have to be appointed
Pema Pera: just a few times an hour is fine
Pema Pera: or even once an hour
Pema Pera: the point is more that we all experiment with the question of what happens when we take a brief break period
Pema Pera: once a day
Pema Pera: or a few times a day
Pema Pera: or twenty times
Pema Pera: and then compare notes
Pema Pera: nothing more than that!
Kat Lemieux: Hmmmm. Well, I do have to take breaks and get up and stretch, but don’t like to watch the clock to do it
Terri Holrych: -.-
Pema Pera: no reason to do it with a clock — many people do find it easier with a clock, one thign less to worry about
Pema Pera: others prefere free form
Pema Pera: either way is fine
We talked more about PaB methods and approaches
Kat Lemieux: But free form rather eliminates the methodology, doesn’t it? Ruins it as an experiment
Pema Pera: The thing is, if you don’t use a clock, you stop to breath when you are no longer caught up in something — when you do a clock, or a random number generator, you can catch yourself in the act of narrowing down; and that gives an interesting opportunity to see your own mind in action
Pema Pera: the sudden realization that you were far more caught up and narrowed down than you realized can open your eyes
Pema Pera: widenyour horizons
Terri Holrych: shock ur mind into opening up
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Kat Lemieux: On the other hand, I’m very practiced at introspection, and don’t find it at all surprising to get very immersed in a project
Kat Lemieux: So i’m afraid I don’t see a lot of point….
Kat Lemieux: Maybe I could be the “control” subject?
Pema Pera: of course you don’t have to do it, Kat
Gaya Ethaniel: Introspection and 9 sec experiences are somewhat different for me
Kat Lemieux: ;-)
Pema Pera: it’s up to you, obviously
Pema Pera: but what puzzles me no end
Pema Pera: is that you let theory win over experiment
Pema Pera: concluding theoretically that there is nothing to be found
Pema Pera: rather than experimentally checking that there is nothign to be found
Pema Pera: even when the experiment takes only a few seconds or minutes
Kat Lemieux: I don’t think that’s what I said. It’s not what I meant
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: what did you mean?
Terri Holrych: what do u use as a control
Terri Holrych: lol
Kat Lemieux: But I don’t understand what the project is really intended to discover, so how will I know what it proves, or not?
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you need to know in order to try out Kat?
Kat Lemieux: It’s one thing to let theory trump experiment, but experiment without a hypothesis confuses me no end
Gaya Ethaniel: Well I can only speak for myself…
Gaya Ethaniel: 9 sec experiences somewhat ‘calmer’ ‘clear’ & ‘broader’ than my other ‘day-dreaming’
Gaya Ethaniel: That’s the closest I can describe the diff…
Pema Pera: the first satellite with a gamma ray telescope just looked at the sky, without knowing what to find
Pema Pera: nobody had at that time every looked at the sky in gamma ray wavelength
Pema Pera: there was no hypothesis
Kat Lemieux: But the scientists who designed it certainly had some notion that there was something to look for
Pema Pera: yes!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
The conversation then gave a natural opening to talk about the new collection of excerpts from PaB sessions.
Kat Lemieux: Even if it was to see if there was nothing there, that would have been a result
Pema Pera: oh yes, for sure
Pema Pera: well, we also have various ideas of what can happen
Pema Pera: and in fact we have a list of excerpt of what people have reported
Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_SESSIONS_EXCERPTS/Notable_excerpts_(short)
Pema Pera: putting it together this week for the first time
Kat Lemieux: Handy!
Pema Pera: but again, no reason to go into that if you don’t have time, or are not particularly interested, of course
Gaya Ethaniel covers her eyes… more excerpts to add still
Pema Pera: :)
Kat Lemieux: Pages says, “(There is currently no text in this page)”
Pema Pera: ? for me there is
Pema Pera: how about http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_SESSIONS_EXCERPTS/
Pema Pera: ?
Kat Lemieux: OH, the browser truncated the URL
Kat Lemieux: There’s stuff there
Pema Pera: !
Kat Lemieux: I’ll bookmark it
And on to hypotheses: Zeroth Life.
Pema Pera: Actually, if you prefer experiments with a hypothesis to test, like me suggest one, for our 9-sec explorations:
Kat Lemieux: ok
Pema Pera: The hypothesis is that what we really are is something in zeroth life
Pema Pera: and our first life body/mind is like an avatar
Pema Pera: and the avatars here are twice removed from what we really are
Pema Pera: The 9-secs can then be seen as tests
Terri Holrych: or maybe closer to what we really are
Pema Pera: is it really possible to go beyond body+mind in RL?
Terri Holrych: yes
Pema Pera: to consider them as what we have rather than what we are?
Gaya Ethaniel: Good stuff Pema
Pema Pera: we indentify pretty completely with our avatar, while immersed in SL
Terri Holrych: i have a lot of junk in my trunk
Pema Pera: also with a dream body in a dream
Pema Pera: or even with a hero or heroin in a novel or movie
Pema Pera: so perhaps we do the same thing with our first life body
Pema Pera: so let’s find out :-)
Pema Pera: (I know it sounds pretty wild)
Gaya Ethaniel laughs
Terri Holrych: thats hot
Terri Holrych: someone just imed me that they were going to hit a castle with a shrink ray
Kat Lemieux: Well, my first question is, how do you know what is zeroth life and what is 1st life? Don’t you nneed to know to tell the difference?
Pema Pera: you need to see first
Kat Lemieux: maybe some definitions are in order
Pema Pera: observations -> experiments -> theory
Pema Pera: definitions come along the way, to make sense of the observations
Pema Pera: not beforehand, then they will limit you — fishing with definitions in hand is like using a net that doesn’t capture the smaller fish
Kat Lemieux: But it sounds like you already have some expectations — this 0th and 1st lives, for instance
Gaya Ethaniel nods ‘Moon also used a phrase - eating soup with a fork’
About hunches.
Pema Pera: not so much expectations, more experiences that point in that direction, and that I now try to put into words
Pema Pera: it started with a combination of hunches and glimpses
Pema Pera: followed by reading in various traditions
Pema Pera: then exploring in mediation and contemplation and talking with various people with long experience in this area
Pema Pera: and then I began to see all kind of patterns
Gaya Ethaniel wonders if Pema can say more about hunches & glimpses as well as ‘traditions’
Pema Pera: the traditions are various, Buddhist, Hindu, Sufi, Taoism, Christianity too (especially Medieval mysticism)
Pema Pera: the hunches were things like well let me give just one example
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure
Pema Pera: when I was 13 or so, I was walking on the street, and suddenly stopped
Pema Pera: I realized that when I was talking to others, that when I started a sentence, I would not know the end of the sentence
Pema Pera: I found that momentously startling
Pema Pera: a huge shock
Pema Pera: I had been considering myself as in charge of the sentences I spoke
Pema Pera: but suddenly I realized that my conscious mind really was more like an avatar (in SL speak)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Pema Pera: so that was one hunch, of many dozens, in my teenage years
Gaya Ethaniel nods and thanks Pema
Gaya Ethaniel: Pretty deep even when you were small Pema :P
Pema Pera: :) I think many children think about these things
Pema Pera: but then adult life comes with pragmatic considerations
Pema Pera: perhaps I never grew up !
Gaya Ethaniel smiles ‘ts a good thing
Terri Holrych: growing up is over rated
So what’s the plan?
Kat Lemieux: Hmm. So the plan is to try to get in touch with or at least observe your inner in charge person?
Pema Pera: that would be a psychological way of interpreting it, perhaps
Kat Lemieux: I agree that many children consider things like this — it’s part of trying to figure out what life is about
Pema Pera: yes indeed!
Pema Pera: but it has extremely practical consequences
Pema Pera: if we identify with our RL body/mind, then the only way to improve is to add
Pema Pera: add more considerations, skills, complexities
Pema Pera: but if we realize that who we really are is not that,
Pema Pera: then we can simplify instead of adding, subtracting and cleaning the windows instead
Pema Pera: we can drop things
Pema Pera: like overly worrying
Pema Pera: to give just one example
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: but all this cannot be reasoned out — only a little, to get started, the rest has to be experienced, to make sense
Pema Pera: and we certainly don’t ask you to accept this on faith :-)
Pema Pera: on the contrary
Kat Lemieux: This seems to imply a belief in some other existence, or a soul or something like that?
Pema Pera: not a belief
Pema Pera: first there is experiment and observation
Pema Pera: then theory can follow, with descriptions and implications
Pema Pera: some religions talk about souls, yes
Pema Pera: I prefer not to
Gaya Ethaniel took a long while before giving a ‘genuine’ try at 9 sec also…
Kat Lemieux: Thr problem I have with “experimentation” based on introspection is that it’s too easy to convince oneself that you’re observing something even if it’s just what you secretly only want to see to support some unvoiced idea.
Pema Pera: yes, I agree!
Green Tea (Hojicha): Mmmhh… leaves perfectly roasted, enjoy it Terri Holrych
Pema Pera: so “introspection” is a tricky notion . . . .
Pema Pera: we are not looking “into” something . . .
Pema Pera: rather we try to drop all ideas
Pema Pera: as much as we can
Pema Pera: without following a dogma or system
Pema Pera: and then we compare notes
Pema Pera: really following the scientific model in that sense
Gaya Ethaniel: Alas… RL calls. Thank you all for the conversation. Good day.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Gaya had to leave, and the conversation moves to Kira.
Kat Lemieux: Bye Gaya
Pema Pera: of course we can make mistakes — but not trying anything because it is possible to make mistakes is not very productive
Pema Pera: bye Gaya!
Terri Holrych: peace
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Kat Lemieux: True!
Pema Pera: I do very well understand what you mean, Kat — I come from the same background of “objective science”
Pema Pera: which has produced beautiful results
Pema Pera: amazingly clear knowledge
Pema Pera: one of the main jewels of what humankind has found
Pema Pera: but we like to ask the question “what else is true”
Pema Pera: besides science
Pema Pera: that is the Kira slogan
Pema Pera: http://www.kira.org/
Kat Lemieux: OK
Pema Pera: facts and values are what makes up our life
Pema Pera: facts can be studied by science to a large degree, objective facts
Pema Pera: but what about values?
Pema Pera: they are equally important, can’t live without them
Adelene Dawner should go get a few more hours’ sleep before the sun comes up. See you next time, Pem.
Pema Pera: I don’t want to leave them to pundits, mullahs, priests
Pema Pera: bye Adelene!
Terri Holrych: peace Adelene
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Kat Lemieux: Indeed, can’t appreciate science without valuing “truth” and “objectivity”
Pema Pera: I want to study values in the same approach as science, but without insisting on the same definition of “objective”
Pema Pera: yes, Kat, very true!
Pema Pera: Scientists tend to say “you should not use values, only facts”
Pema Pera: but “should” is a value judgment
Kat Lemieux: ;-)
Kat Lemieux: Exactly
Pema Pera thinks of a cartoon of a scientist, shouting “science is rational, not emotional!” and banging on the table
Kat Lemieux: ;-)
On to intersubjectivity.
Pema Pera: what we call objective is really inter-subjective
Pema Pera: there is no way a physicist can step outside her/his mind or world
Pema Pera: but by comparing notes, with enough people involved, we get pretty close to objective
Pema Pera: but it remains inter-subjective, with enough trained individuals agreeing
Pema Pera: there is no reason that when doing forms of meditation we cannot get inter-subjective agreement
Kat Lemieux: Actually, since my science (Linguistics) isn’t as closely tied to physical phenomenon, it might actually be easier for me to do this than it has been for you, coming from physics.
Pema Pera: sorry what is “this”?
Kat Lemieux: What you’re trying to accomplish
Kat Lemieux: Discovering something intangible
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: as for “evidence”
Pema Pera: let us take a very simple mundane situation
Pema Pera: I am arguing with somebody
Pema Pera: and for every thing I say, the other counters with another argument
Pema Pera: let’s say I’m in some kind of silly quarrel
Pema Pera: and then suddenly I see that there is no point in continuing the quarrel
Terri Holrych:
Pema Pera: I can smile, relax, perhaps offer an apology
Pema Pera: and find a way to start anew
Pema Pera: or move side ways
Kat Lemieux: or just walk away
Pema Pera: rather than continuing to fuel — yes
Pema Pera: so that is a form of subtraction rather than addition
Pema Pera: sometimes progress is made by finding more: facts, skills, whatever
Pema Pera: sometimes by dropping something
Pema Pera: now “evidence:
Pema Pera: when you drop a silly fight, the evidence is there very clearly and very quickly:
Pema Pera: the fight stops, you feel better, you see clearly how you were caught up
Pema Pera: Now the idea of the 9-sec is:
Pema Pera: much of the time we are fighting with ourselves
Pema Pera: we are caught up in all kind of silly misunderstanding withing ourselves
Pema Pera: and by briefly walking away
Pema Pera: we give ourselves the luxury to drop a few sillinesses
Pema Pera: then after 9 sec we pick up most of them again, habitually
Pema Pera: but we may be careless, and forget to pick up a few
Pema Pera: bingo!
Pema Pera: we have made our life a bit easier — and more efficient too
Pema Pera: so there is nothing mysterious about what we are doing, from that point of view.
Kat Lemieux: ok.
Pema Pera: Thanks for being such a good sports, Kat!
Pema Pera: I very much appreciate it
It was time for Terri to leave, and we then talked about postulates and hypotheses.
Kat Lemieux: Sounds to me like you have a few postulates there, though.
Terri Holrych: i have to go
Pema Pera: yes?
Terri Holrych: sorry
Pema Pera: bye Terri!
Pema Pera: Thanks again for stopping by!
Kat Lemieux: You’re positing that there are sillnesses…
Terri Holrych: seee u soon
Terri Holrych: thanks
Pema Pera: ah! okay, let me reformulate
Kat Lemieux: and that by dropping them momentarily and perhaps not picking them up again, you can eliminate them
Pema Pera: we are testing the working hypothesis that there are all kinds of sillinesses :-)
Kat Lemieux: OH I’ll freely grant you the sillinesses! ;-)
Kat Lemieux: Every way of thought has to start from somewhere, after all!
Pema Pera: sure, but the working hypothesis is then also that we can reduce the number of bad habits, so to speak
Pema Pera: inefficient ways we are internally quarreling with ourselves
Kat Lemieux: YEs, I’d say that’s something that could be tested, once you postulate the “sillinesses”
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: now we have a package!
Pema Pera: :-)
Kat Lemieux: ;-)
Pema Pera: and don’t worry, it’s wonderful to have you here to talk about all this
Kat Lemieux: TY
Pema Pera: independent of whether you’d like to test something or not
Pema Pera: I very much enjoy hearing your angle
Pema Pera: on what we are doing
How to get into the PaB exploration?
Kat Lemieux: I really am curious about what you’ve been up to with this, and I enjoy exploring it, just don’t think I have he self-discipline to actually try it myself on a sustained level
Claire Beltran: Me, either….
Pema Pera: how about doing it a few times, say, tomorrow you take a few breaths, a few times, and during that time you imagine that internally there are a few children quarreling — and you just let them back off
Pema Pera: A small experiment, for only one day, and only a few seconds for each of the five times, say, you do it
Pema Pera: less than the time it takes to brush your teeth
Kat Lemieux: OK, I can do that
Pema Pera: If you’re game I’d love to hear what you find.
Pema Pera: Thank you!
Pema Pera: You really ARE a good sports, Kat :)
Kat Lemieux: ;-)
Pema Pera: perhaps I should build a rocket for you now !
Kat Lemieux: And you are very patient with me!
Pema Pera: oh no, you are
Kat Lemieux: Oh, yes! Love to have a rocket!
Pema Pera: I am enjoying this very much
Pema Pera: o o
Pema Pera: there I go
Kat Lemieux: ;-)
Pema Pera: but that will take more time than brushing my teeth . . . . .
Kat Lemieux: But if you take it just a few seconds at a time….
Kat Lemieux: ;-)
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: well, let me see
Pema Pera: it would be fun!
Now it was time for me to leave.
Pema Pera: talking about time
Pema Pera: I’d better go to dinner here in Kyoto
Kat Lemieux: Yep. Or a spacecraft.
Kat Lemieux: OH, you’re back in Japan?
Kat Lemieux: will you be in Princeton this Fall like you thought a few months ago?
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: September Kyoto,
Kat Lemieux: We’re still thinking of trying to get up there in October
Pema Pera: october november Princeton
Pema Pera: WOW
Pema Pera: that would be wonderful !!!!
Pema Pera: We actually have a RL gettogether of Play as Being
Pema Pera: Oct. 17-19
Kat Lemieux: Well, no promises. We’re not sure we can afford it
Kat Lemieux: Wow!
Pema Pera: and you, too, Claire, are of course welcome to join!
Kat Lemieux: That might make it easier to plan — having an actual event/target
Kat Lemieux: right now we’re getting a bad case of cabin fever. Talking about a trip to Colorado & Utah, but not in the RV
Kat Lemieux: New England is a bit more of an expedition, of course
Pema Pera: October should be beautiful though
Pema Pera: you can start in teh North and migrate South
Pema Pera: from Vermont
Kat Lemieux: YEs, and maybe with gas prices not as many people will be on the highway
Kat Lemieux: YEs! Or Rowley, Mass.
Kat Lemieux: That’s where some of my ancestors settled in 1639
Kat Lemieux: Phil has never been to New England
Pema Pera: high time!
Kat Lemieux: Yep!
Pema Pera: Ah, RL is calling
Pema Pera: have to leave now
Kat Lemieux: OK, thanks for your explanations!
Kat Lemieux: And your patience
Kat Lemieux: Have a good lunch!
Pema Pera: thank you!
Pema Pera: Great seeing you again, Kat!
Kat Lemieux: YOu, too!
Pema Pera: and you too, Claire!
Pema Pera: c u later!
