2008.08.04 07:00 - Getting Tired of Walls

    Table of contents
    No headers

    That morning, I (Pema) was the guardian. It took me a couple minutes to get in, struggling with the new SL viewer that became very talkative, trying to explain to me everything about SL :). When I arrived at the pavilion, I found Adelene, Doug, Gaya, and Fael in conversation, while Adams also just entered.

    Gaya Ethaniel: along the line with 'allowing room for doubts'
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema, Adams :)
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Faenik loves wells!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Fael :0
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
    Pema Pera: morning, everybody!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Gaya :0
    Adams Rubble: Hello Doug :)
    Adelene Dawner: 'morning :) (*yawn*)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Adeline :)
    doug Sosa: :)
    Fael Illyar: ":0"?
    Adams Rubble: Sorry Fael .... :)
    Pema Pera: Ah, Adelene, did you get the info that tomorrow, Tuesday, 2 pm SLT, we'll talk about scripting for autorecording?
    Adelene Dawner: Yup. I should be able to be here.
    Pema Pera: great!
    Pema Pera: Looking forward to that discussion
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Pema Pera: Doug and Adelene, have you seen the new building that Storm built?
    Adelene Dawner: nope
    doug Sosa: no!
    Pema Pera: perhaps we can walk over in a bit -- depending on how long you can stay here
    doug Sosa: yes, i can stay this morning.
    Adelene Dawner is not busy
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Pema Pera: I hope I did not interrupt the conversation :)
    Pema Pera: I saw "Gaya Ethaniel: along the line with 'allowing room for doubts'" when I walked in
    doug Sosa: we were talking about faenik wisdom
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Pema Pera: なるほど^^
    doug Sosa: how random thoughts often are more useful than contextually targeted ones.
    Adams Rubble: ah
    Gaya Ethaniel: So well put doug
    Pema Pera: haha, could be!

    I commented on Adams' blog, and then Tahuti dropped by.

    Pema Pera: btw, Adams, about your blog, yes, I think you're right about Adam and Eve
    Pema Pera: "sin" being like subject-object separation
    Adams Rubble: Fred wrote me about that too :)
    Pema Pera: setting yourself apart from the Universe
    Pema Pera: another form of pride -- perhaps the ultimate one
    Adams Rubble: It makes more sense than a piece of fruit :)
    Adelene Dawner: Interesting - sounds like it's closely related to some of my thoughts on how people define 'person'.
    Adams Rubble: Hello Tahuti
    Pema Pera: yes, Adelene?
    Pema Pera: hi Tahuti!
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Tahuti Thor: hello everyone
    Tahuti Thor: : )
    Tahuti Thor: glad to meet you here
    doug Sosa: :)
    Pema Pera: did you get my IMs Tahuti?
    Fael Illyar: Hi Tahuti :)
    Tahuti Thor: hi Pema
    Pema Pera: it would be fun having you at our weekly meeting, if you have time that is
    Tahuti Thor: yes
    Pema Pera: it may be too early on a Sunday morning?
    Pema Pera: 8 am SLT?
    Adelene Dawner: Most people define 'person' narrowly enough that not even all humans fit it - people with severe disabilities, for example, are generally not considered 'people' in the same sense that everyone else is. Personally, I try to define 'people' as broadly as possible - certainly all humans and vertibrate animals, probably all animals period, perhaps plants and bacteria - and also some machines.
    Tahuti Thor: 11 am est? yes i should be able to make it
    Pema Pera: great! Yes, 11 am edt.
    Pema Pera: we were just talking about Adams' blog, have you seen it?
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Tahuti Thor: : )
    Tahuti Thor: no
    Pema Pera: http://rubblebornthoughts.wordpress.com/
    Pema Pera: well worth reading!

    Doug made an interesting comment on the word person.

    doug Sosa: "person", te word comes from greek for mask. The persona one puts on. this helps define "person" as one capable of playing.
    Tahuti Thor: ok, ill check it out
    Pema Pera: interesting, Doug!
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... didn't know that. Thanks doug
    Fael Illyar: greek for mask ... interesting the links there are :)
    doug Sosa: links though are like karma, bonds that become binds which become chains. Important to use them cautiously.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    doug Sosa: persona i so intresting here where we mask up to such a high degree.
    Adelene Dawner: Not all of us mask up, Doug. ^.^
    Fael Illyar: It's debatable whether it's masking up also :)
    doug Sosa: i am not sure i would recognize you at the bus stop.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: you could also call our RL body a mask
    Adams Rubble: We certainly have RL facades
    Adelene Dawner: Hard not to - survival mechanism.
    Adams Rubble: yes Adelene
    Fael Illyar: In some ways, it's possible to be less masked in SL than in RL.
    Adams Rubble: Yes, that too, Fael
    Adelene Dawner: And noone is so simple that a person who sees them in one situation can really understand what they would do in another, even if they are being autnetic in both.
    Adelene Dawner: *authentic
    Pema Pera: yes, Fael, it can be a kind of distillation
    Pema Pera: and yes, Adelene, the roles can be almost disconnected
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Pema Pera: and in a way, real freedom is the freedom to be spontaneous and totally different each new moment . . . . .
    Adelene Dawner: Yes! :D
    Pema Pera: not to be confused with random :)
    Adelene Dawner chuckles.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Pema Pera: btw, Adams, I love your blog sentence: Help me know when I see what I think I do not see.
    Faenik: why not?
    Pema Pera: haha, Faenik!
    Adams Rubble: :)

    Gaya brought up the notion of purpose.

    Gaya Ethaniel: spontaneous with 'purpose' I guess
    Pema Pera: or without :)
    doug Sosa: I once went out after a snow and looked at the animal tracks: deer, skunk, possum, rabbitt, fox... none went ina straight line. only humans maybe are so focused that they don't respond to the moment.
    Gaya Ethaniel: without - you are sure there is no underlying 'purpose' that you are unaware of?
    Pema Pera: it depends what we mean with purpose
    Pema Pera: no conscious purpuse, when spontaneous; so then the question is what else?
    Gaya Ethaniel: maybe 'meaning', 'direction'... difficult to choose the right word here
    Adelene Dawner: 'purpose' generally denotes conscious though which means yes, you'd be aware if it was happening
    Gaya Ethaniel: i'm never unconscious...
    Pema Pera: partly a matter of label, perhaps
    Pema Pera: often when I do something spontaneous, then after the fact I can see it did fit it quite well
    Pema Pera: but hard to define a purpose
    Pema Pera: often more than one could be added
    Adelene Dawner: That would be very strange if it was truly true, Gaya. Many people aren't very aware of the unconscious parts of themselves, though. But that doesn't mean that those parts aren't there.
    Pema Pera: as a kind of commentary
    Gaya Ethaniel: I believe even spontaneous acts are founded upon something that drives us to do it
    Pema Pera: not random, for sure
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes not random - that could be the phrase i was looking for
    Pema Pera: but perhaps "founding" and "something" may be too strict
    Pema Pera: too reified?
    Faenik: could be
    Gaya Ethaniel: Man... I'm not an English native speaker, at least not yet
    Pema Pera: extending our usual language into a realm where it may not fit so well?
    Adelene Dawner: I think the practical point, Gaya, is that if you insist that those spontanious urges 'explain themselves' before yo do them, you miss out on a lot of good insights that the unconscious bits that generate them are tryingto show you.

    I mentioned Adams' blog again.

    Pema Pera: Adams, would you mind saying a bit more about your blog sentence Help me know when I see what I think I do not see. -- I think that is related
    Gaya Ethaniel: no... I don't care if I don't understand it... all I'm saying is that there is some sort of drive that makes us to do even spontaneous things
    Adams Rubble: Well, I think about this in a personal way
    Gaya Ethaniel: not understanding doesn't always stop me from doing something
    Faenik: could be
    Pema Pera: absolutely, Gaya
    Adams Rubble: I have had experiences
    Adams Rubble: and I sometimes wonder if I really "saw" in them
    Adams Rubble: and that I just do not know that I have seen
    Pema Pera: quite likely
    Pema Pera: memory tends to filter
    Adams Rubble: It was related to something Fael said yesterday
    Pema Pera: memory itself is like a shadow on the wall
    Adams Rubble: Fael said that I may be exhausted after feeling connected because I was not connnected to "oneness"
    Pema Pera: interesting, yes, I read that
    Adams Rubble: maybe I was connected to "oneness"
    Fael Illyar: I meant you were actively holding back from complete connection.
    Adams Rubble: maybe
    Fael Illyar: and that is what the exhaustion is from
    doug Sosa: sometimes i think fht e spontaneity of a stream going down the hill, spontaneous but determined by circumstances - at each moment.
    Pema Pera: exhaustion comes from being out-of-kilter, perhaps, the wobbling we've talked about, friction, the opposite of wu-wei, not-doing
    Pema Pera: so exhaustion can be a pointer
    Adams Rubble: I misunderstood Fael but it doesn;t change the fact that I may be seeing and not know :)
    Pema Pera: like a strange noise in a car, or a bug in a computer program
    Adams Rubble: Did you see my dream this morning?
    Pema Pera: ah, not yet
    Fael Illyar: No, I didn't share your dream ;) (but I did read your blog about it)
    Adams Rubble: I think it fits this
    Pema Pera: which entry?
    Pema Pera: My latest is "pride" -- 52nd
    Pema Pera: after that?
    Adams Rubble: the main entry under Chained Together
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adams Rubble: 53rd
    Adams Rubble: is it there?
    Pema Pera: no
    Pema Pera: not for me on firefox at least
    Adams Rubble: Hmmm. It seems to be in the right place. Do you have the main url?
    Fael Illyar: I can see it
    Pema Pera: oops
    Pema Pera: my mistake!
    Pema Pera: haha, how tricky
    Pema Pera: after writing a comment
    Adams Rubble: Yes, it happens to me too...on my own blog :)
    Pema Pera: I got to the specific page
    Pema Pera: not the general page
    Pema Pera: and that specific page of course did not update
    Pema Pera: ah, computers . . . . .

    Having realized my mistake, we got back to Adams' dream.


    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: It has links and chains
    Adams Rubble is feeling a bit smug about her role with her typist
    Pema Pera: haha, i love those dialogues human-av
    Fael Illyar: :P
    Pema Pera: just read the dream -- interesting, Adams, thanks for sharing!
    Pema Pera: This notion of us already seeing
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pema Pera: yet wondering where to go, what to do, to see
    Pema Pera: is really so crucial, and so hard to talk about . . . ..
    Pema Pera: this is the image I mentioned a week and a couple days ago
    Pema Pera: of someone knocking on our front door
    Pema Pera: and we going out of the backdoor with a full backpack on a long quest to find that person . . . . .
    Pema Pera: so round about
    Pema Pera: all religions all searches all quests have that nature
    Adams Rubble: Yes, and now instead of the door handle, I need to find the light switch
    Pema Pera: and we know it metaphorically, we recognize it in literature
    Adelene Dawner chuckles. "I was just thinking about this myself..."
    Pema Pera: we nod and say "yes, the hero had to make a long roundabout quest to find that he/she was already there"
    Pema Pera: but now how to apply that insight in our own life????
    Pema Pera: nice image, light switch :)
    Pema Pera: in SL you can swith on day and night :-)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: *switch
    Adams Rubble: My plodding method does not seem too appetizing
    Pema Pera: but switching on is still doing . . . .
    Pema Pera: the challenge is to let go of ALL doing
    Pema Pera: so hard and yet so easy . . . . .
    Pema Pera: so different from ANYTHING we've every done
    Pema Pera: such an odd kind of courage is required

    We talked more about courage.

    Adams Rubble: I found your reference to courage interesting...can you say more about that?
    Fael Illyar: the courage to assume you're already there?
    Pema Pera: Adalene, may I quote what I emailed to you yesterday?
    Adelene Dawner: sure
    Pema Pera: the last part may be relevant
    Pema Pera: The open secret is to keep your sense of being galvanized, or ready
    to go all out on the greatest heroic quest -- and to plough that
    under as manure on the field of leisure. Be completely keen and
    clear and motivated and ready to fight your way out of confusion
    and then totally totally give up even the slightest notion of any
    fight or goal or strive whatsoever, and relax in that.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Pema Pera: there is a very strange kind of courage required to do that
    Pema Pera: a kind of double courage: to go all out AND to completely let go
    Adelene Dawner: Be just as ready to be *here* asto go *there*... they're the same, after all. ^.^
    Pema Pera: yes, Fael, related to that and YET also a sense of really wanting to try -- not to just assume it is all okay -- that's the hard part
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Pema Pera: yes, Adelene
    Pema Pera: yes, with a particular stance, attitude
    Pema Pera: very easy to be mistaken for a kind of shrugging
    Pema Pera: a kind of "okay, well, so that is what it is, fine"
    Fael Illyar: You're already there, but there something, that's not you, in the way.
    Adelene Dawner: My brain has been driving that point home, last night and today. I'm on my functional downswing, to the point where I can't even really conceptualize Being... but that's ok. This is Being, too.
    Pema Pera: the galvanization part is very nicely expressed in Adams' approach
    Pema Pera: oh yes, Adelene
    Adams Rubble: So courgae to do and not do at the same time...not knowing what is right...sort of a trial and error?
    doug Sosa: i must go, things to do before a trip... to berkeley..!
    Fael Illyar: See you later Doug :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: see you doug!
    Adams Rubble: bye Doug

    Doug left, and I had to leave soon too.

    Pema Pera: I have to go in five minutes too, to my astronomy meeting
    Fael Illyar: conceptualize Being? ... that sounds wrong somehow.
    Adelene Dawner: Perhaps not the best words, Fael. As mentioned, I'm not at my best.
    Gaya Ethaniel missed saying 'bye' to doug 'he was way to fast... eager to go to Berkeley'
    Pema Pera: :)
    Fael Illyar: If someone is in too much of a hurry to leave to not listen to goodbyes, he/she doesn't need them :P
    Pema Pera: yes, Adams, to do and not do -- perhaps more accurate, to be intense yet not do . . . hm, intense is also not quite right
    Pema Pera: yes, Fael, Doug avoids those :)
    Pema Pera: fully there, yet not do
    Adelene Dawner: Right now, 'Being' is... just a word. If I had to talk about it, explain anything, I couldn't. I can't even explain it to myself. But I remember the other explanations that I've given to myself enough to know, in some sense, that this is Being, too.
    Adams Rubble: I see that now. Yes, some form of courage is needed for that
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... ok. But I need to wish them good day... well I'm dropping this 'want' :)
    Adelene Dawner 's brain is a strange place to be, sometimes. ^.^
    Fael Illyar: I have had times when I've felt I can't even explain properly what Being isn't.
    Adelene Dawner: That's because there's nothing that it isn't, Fael.
    Pema Pera: courage to not do, yet not to drop one's intense . . . .(what?)
    Fael Illyar: nothing it isn't, but it certainly isn't anything specific :)
    Pema Pera: courage to stay with it, stick with it, feel the absolute necessity to do, yet to not-do
    Pema Pera: hard to say in words
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: I think I understand it now
    Pema Pera: that's true, Fael -- and any part is Being too :)
    Adelene Dawner: aaand we've reached the point where my stored word-memories won't hold up my end of this conversation, Fael. Perhaps another time.
    Fael Illyar: well, I guess it is at the same time.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pema Pera: well, I'll have to leave
    Pema Pera: and I'll let Gaya say goodbye :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good day to you Pema
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: See you later Pema :)
    Adams Rubble: bye Pema :)
    Adelene Dawner: cya Pem
    Pema Pera: bye everybody!

    I took off, and Adelene would later hand me the text of the chat log that I missed.


    Adelene Dawner: I think I can put some words to what I meant by 'conceptualize Being', if you want me to try.
    Fael Illyar: sure
    Gaya Ethaniel: if you don't mind pls
    Fael Illyar: please do try :)
    Adelene Dawner: I assume you guys have heard Pema talk about Loa vs. LoR?
    Gaya Ethaniel: er... no :(
    Fael Illyar: briefly, I read a meeting log with those.
    Adams Rubble: Not me
    Adelene Dawner: Ok. This will be hard for me to do, then, and I'll probably flub it. But her goes nothing.
    Gaya Ethaniel: You continue, I will read the log and re-read this chat
    Fael Illyar: yes, a pointer to earlier meeting log where those concepts are explained would be helpful
    Adelene Dawner: LoA is "language of the absolute" and LoR is "language of the relative"
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... ok rings a bell
    Adelene Dawner: 7/29 1am meeting
    Faenik loves wells!
    Adelene Dawner: Pema talks about them from a language perspective, but they're more... viewpoints, kind of - ways of thinking, to me.
    Adelene Dawner: 'All' is a LoA concept, when you're talking about the universe, everything. Infinity is a LoA concept.
    Adelene Dawner: 'More' or 'less' or 'good' or 'bad' or any kind of duality or split or judgement comes from LoR.
    Adelene Dawner: When I'm having a good brain day, I can think in LoA mode - though 'think' isn't really a good word, because thinking implies weighing, comparing, all kinds of LoR things. 'Know' is better.
    Adelene Dawner: Right now, though, I can't. I'm 'stuck' in LoR. I remember being able to 'do' LoA, but I don't currently know how.
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's quite fascinating... I don't think I'm aware precisely when I can do LoA or not
    Fael Illyar: I think I "get" what Adelene is trying to say.
    Tahuti Thor: to speak in contradictions = LoA ?

    Seemingly in contradictions, yes, but only seemingly, as Adelene pointed out a bit later.


    Fael Illyar: thinking (or knowing) in LoA is what you mean by conceptualizing Being?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that's what I was typing too Fael :)
    Adelene Dawner: Not... necesarily, Tahuti. Sometimes. Some of the things that are true in LoA look extremely weird when you try to put them in LoR words.
    Adelene Dawner: And yes, Fael and Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: But I guess you don't 'conceptualise Being' in words whether LoA or LoR Adele
    Gaya Ethaniel: LoA and LoR are Just concepts to explain how you experience Being
    Adelene Dawner: Not in words, no, but then most of the brain stuff that I do isn't in words anyway, so that's not at all strange for me.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Fael Illyar: wordless thinking :)
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adelene Dawner: Very much so, Fael.
    Adelene Dawner: I mean, really, how can words describe Infinity? The word infinity doesn't even describe infinity, it's just a hand pointing to the moon.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods 'so that's why maybe we can't define Being or God'
    Adelene Dawner: Yup.
    Adams Rubble flipping back and forth is constantly amazed at how Pema talks to us all so differently
    Adelene Dawner: ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Er... I haven't noticed much inconsistancy in Pema's yet
    Fael Illyar: Different approach? I don't think I talk to any two people the same way.
    Fael Illyar: group setting is a bit different though.
    Gaya Ethaniel: He may use different words yes - often choose to use plainer stuff for me
    Gaya Ethaniel: But his ideas have been more or less same so far as far as I've seen him talking
    Fael Illyar: Yes, you choose words the person you're talking to will understand
    Adams Rubble: No inconsistently...just relates to our individual needs at the time :)
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Adams but with core messages that remain same...
    Adams Rubble: Sometimes it is hard for me to relate to what he is saying to tohers because the ideas others are working with have not occured to me
    Fael Illyar: Everyone talks slightly different language. If you want to be understood, speak their language.
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders if anyone speaks Korean
    Fael Illyar: See what is behind the words.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Fael Illyar: not the words themselves.

    We indeed speak many languages -- in some sense each of us speaks his or her own language. And we all understand each other only partially, and perhaps ourselves even only partially. Adams commented on that, but she may simply have been more critical than most, being more keen on precision than most of us, as I would later mention; and it surely is a good thing to try to be precise and clear!

    Adams Rubble: You guys are misunderstanding me :)
    Adams Rubble: All I am saying is that I struggle when the ideas you are discussing have not even occured to me. I have trouble following the conversation
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... i c
    Gaya Ethaniel: No worries I don't always follow either :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, that can make it difficult :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I reflect at the end of each day
    Adelene Dawner: Curious - which concepts, Adams?
    Adams Rubble: Your discussion is about a scale much larger than my mind inhabits
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Adams Rubble: It's OK...very interesting, that's all
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ You'll get there.
    Adams Rubble: I am amazed seeing the easy flow of the conversation while I am saying "What?"
    Fael Illyar has been stopping about every 5 minutes today and yesterday.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I admire your eagerness & willingness Adams
    Gaya Ethaniel: That alone is a big asset
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo again Pem! would you like a log?
    Pema Pera: yes, please!
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: short meeting
    Fael Illyar: wb Pema :)
    Adelene Dawner: one moment while I make a notecard.

    I had returned much faster than I thought I would. Fael then brought up the notion of a wall, a kind of protective fortification that we put up around ourselves.

    Pema Pera: only 6 out of 14 members of our steering committee where there -- so we decided to just skip the meeting, when it was clear no more people would show up
    Gaya Ethaniel: Glad to have you back here Pema at any rate
    Pema Pera: :)
    Adelene Dawner gave you Log of Now.
    Adelene Dawner: We were discussing 'conceptualizing Being' and LoA and LoR. ^.^
    Fael Illyar: ever since figuring out a wall I've been using to keep myself separate from the rest of the world, I've been stopping around every 5 minutes to check it and put it back down.
    Gaya Ethaniel: That would require hugh amount of efforts Fael
    Adelene Dawner: mmm... not necessarily.
    Fael Illyar: It's important enough that no matter the effort, I'll keep checking.
    Gaya Ethaniel: At least in the beginning I assume...
    Gaya Ethaniel: How so Adele?
    Fael Illyar: having the wall up tires me too much.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Pema Pera: Do you see degrees of freedom in how to "put the wall back down", Fael, choices, options, different ways to approach that "putting down"?
    Adelene Dawner: Everybody's relationship with their incarnation is different. For myself, when I notice something like that, it's hard to make it *not* dissapear, immediately and permanently.
    Fael Illyar: I've done it in a few ways so far since it started bothering me doing it the same time all the time.
    Adelene Dawner: (And my way is not always a good thing!)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Is there any downside for that Adele? Doesn't seem to be
    Pema Pera: how about letting it be there, seeing it, and yet not doing anything?
    Pema Pera: and recognizing the non-wall-there in the wall-there?
    Adelene Dawner: Oh yes, there are definite downsides. Some of those walls and things are survival skill stuff. And yes, Pema, that'd be ideal, but I haven't figured out how to do it with that kind of thing yet.
    Fael Illyar: I find the wall vanishes if I recognise it's up.
    Pema Pera: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Pema Pera: so "taking down" is then a bit of a misnomer perhaps
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adelene Dawner: That's my experience, too, Fael - the difference seems to be that for you, it comes back.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's still there but doesn't affect me
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Adele so there are ups and downs for me at times
    Pema Pera: it may be coming back for all of us, for some of us in more subtle ways perhaps
    Pema Pera: unless we would be fully realized, I think it's still there somehow
    Pema Pera: harder and harder to notice perhaps

    The walls come in many forms . . . .

    Gaya Ethaniel: Do you think Pema as we recognise it better, the wall becomes more difficult to recognise?
    Gaya Ethaniel: hm.. typed same thing again...
    Pema Pera: more subtle yes
    Fael Illyar: I noticed the wall yesterday for the first time. I started wondering suddenly being tired after meditation instead of energized that had been the norm before that.
    Adelene Dawner shrugs. "That's another angle of the stimming thing that I already wanted to share with you, Pem. That'll be interesting to watch and explore."
    Gaya Ethaniel takes her hands off keyboard slowly
    Fael Illyar: umm, not tired, sleepy.
    Pema Pera: there can be many reasons for that, Fael
    Pema Pera: the main thing is to continue :-)
    Pema Pera: and see
    Pema Pera: and relax
    Pema Pera: sleeping is often a good thing :)
    Pema Pera: what is another angle on stimming, Adelene?
    Fael Illyar: So, I sat back down and started examining, somewhat instinctively threw the wall down and then realized there was a wall.
    Pema Pera: interesting, Fael, can you say more?
    Fael Illyar: sleepiness was gone right after the wall was down.
    Pema Pera: ah, fascinating!
    Pema Pera: now I see better what you meant
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adelene Dawner: Well, for a long time - like, until the last few weeks - I had a wall around stimming. It was only 'allowed' when I was at home, in private. I eventually realized, in a full sense, that stimming isn't 'bad', and the wall fell. There's some level of survival instinct that still limits it in truly dangerous situations, but stimming in public is definitely not taboo any more... even when it perhaps should be a bit more controlled.
    Fael Illyar: what is stimming?
    Gaya Ethaniel: it's similar to ticks
    Adelene Dawner: Non-conscious partially-voluntary movements - reactions to my surriondings and feelings, mostly. They look weird.
    Gaya Ethaniel: are they normally movements or verbalisation Adele?
    Adelene Dawner: Mostly movements, though I do have some verbal stims.

    Different angles on stimming.


    Gaya Ethaniel believes that stimming is necessary most of time to relieve tension
    Fael Illyar: Oh, those, I have them too. Never paid much attention to them.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Gaya Ethaniel: i c
    Fael Illyar: People tend to get annoyed with me sometimes though.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Fael, a lot of children have them and grow out of them ie shaking legs when nervous
    Adelene Dawner is fascinated
    Gaya Ethaniel: Can you say what you do Fael?
    Fael Illyar: some sort of repetitive movement, usually a reaction to music but I sometimes, for example, play music by hitting my teeth with my fingernails.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods 'pretty common'
    Fael Illyar: (yes, I can play melodies that way)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Though Adele's 'ticks' are more intense I guess
    Gaya Ethaniel: So what is the another angle Adele, sorry for the interruption
    Faenik: why not?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... sorry
    Gaya Ethaniel reads again
    Gaya Ethaniel: So you feel ok now about your stimming even in public Adele?
    Adelene Dawner grins at Faenic. "Indeed, why not interrupt? But the angle that Pema and I have talked about via email is looking at my stims and trying to 'decode' them - something like a language. The new angle is to look at and be aware of the 'wall' or 'taboo' angle."
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adelene Dawner: Mmm... makes me nervous, a bit. People don't always react well to 'weird'. But so far it hasn't caused any problems, and it's not something I can really do much about at this point, so why worry?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Definitely once you are relaxed about it, I believe you won't do it so much and just do when you 'need' to in order to express or relieve your internal thoughts
    Adelene Dawner: Quite likely true, Gaya.
    Fael Illyar: I've never blocked them, even in public. I only tend to move them to less visible movements.
    Gaya Ethaniel: well, I know someone with Tourette, seen it disppear gradually over a decade with the process I just describe
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Fael, many people change to more 'appriopriate' ticks depending on where they are. It's important not to prevent yourself doing it... but we need to be at least aware when we do it, I believe that's crucial
    Faenik: indeed?
    Gaya Ethaniel: And don't feel bad when they happen !
    Fael Illyar: somehow the thought of feeling bad about them feels alien.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Adele - would you be able to recognise your different 'ticks' and channel them to less 'obvious' ones in public?

    To stim or not to stim? The practical side of it.

    Adelene Dawner doesn't feel bad about them, she just feels vulnerable and doesn't like that part.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Because what/how others react to you?
    Fael Illyar: I tend to be aware of them often.
    Adelene Dawner: Sometimes I cna move them, Gaya, but I get the impression that that'd interfere with the process that I'm going through right now with them. And yes, I worry about other people's reactions.
    Adelene Dawner: (I mean, not much, not enough to stop me certainly, but it's a concern.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I can imagine in your case Adele it'd be extremely difficult because you have many other things to juggle... I won't worry about changing yours into something different for the sake of it. Just was a suggestion in order to change how others react to you. In regards to your worries... I'm not sure. Any suggestions?
    Gaya Ethaniel: You've accepted that they are not 'bad' 'taboo' so maybe soon you won't feel so vunerable
    Adelene Dawner: Pretending that the world's safe doesn't make it so... but accepting that bad things might happen, and understanding that one can handle them, helps. But... I'm still not sure I could handle some of the bad things that could theoretically come of this. I'm not invincible.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Adams Rubble: Yes, of course, Adelene
    Adams Rubble: Unfortunately I must run an errand before I leave SL so I must go. bye all :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: See you later Adams :)
    Pema Pera: bye Adams!
    Pema Pera: thanks for the kind words, btw
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's a hard one Adele...
    Pema Pera: while I was gone :)
    Pema Pera: just read up
    Adams Rubble: I am constantly amazed about how small my world is :)
    Pema Pera: but if I can add one thing, Adams?
    Pema Pera: I think you are severely short changing yourself
    Pema Pera: when you think that you don't get what others say in different "languages"
    Gaya Ethaniel: Does that feeling of being vunerable relate to what we discussed before Adele with Pema 'fragility'?
    Pema Pera: I think your standard for "getting it" may be much higher than for most
    Pema Pera: which is great!
    Pema Pera: :)
    Adams Rubble: Thank you Pema :)
    Adams Rubble: bye all :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good day Adams
    Pema Pera: bye Adams!


    Adams left, and it was time to go for me too.


    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, Gaya. I just don't trust this situation completely, yet - that if I am unable to handle that, that it will not be done to me, and that if it is done to me, that I can handle it. Or... there are more angles to that thought, but words are meh.
    Gaya Ethaniel: it will come... though with some 'kicks in your chest' as you put it
    Gaya Ethaniel meh
    Pema Pera: I have to leave again . . . getting close to two hours, this session :)
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: See you again soon Pema
    Pema Pera: you too, Gaya, Adelene, Tahuti, Fael!
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Pema :)

    Tag page (Edit tags)
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core