2008.08.04 13:00 - Everything is thought?

The Guardian for the session was Sky Szimmer. There are no comments yet.

Threedee Shepherd: Hi Fael
Fael Illyar: Hi Adelene, ThreeDee :)
Adelene Dawner: 'lo Fael
Adelene Dawner is crafting again
Faenik: could be
Threedee Shepherd: making what?
Adelene Dawner: A little box, covered in paper.
Threedee Shepherd: of wood?
Adelene Dawner: Nope, paperboard.
Threedee Shepherd: ahh
Fael Illyar: RL crafting?
Adelene Dawner: Practicing my technique, mostly.
Adelene Dawner: Yes, RL
Fael Illyar: Hi Sky
Threedee Shepherd: Hi Sky
Adelene Dawner: 'lo Sky
Sky Szimmer: hey y'all
Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)
Adelene Dawner: 'lo Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Threedee Shepherd: I note both of you Fael ans Sky belong to the Zen Retreat group, as do many PaB folk. What is it about?
Fael Illyar: Leftover from the time when we met at the tea house I guess.
Threedee Shepherd: ahh
Threedee Shepherd: hello Gaya
Fael Illyar changed to Zen Retreat group tag.
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Threedee
Gaya Ethaniel: There is zazen session led by Dakini and Isen at 6 SLT each day for Zen Retreat group Threedee
Gaya Ethaniel: Mostly that is, often other members ring the bell as well
Threedee Shepherd nods
Threedee Shepherd: does the Zazen include Koan 'work'?
Gaya Ethaniel: No sitting only. Isen often distribute notecard and we are free to discuss with him after the session. You know you could ask Isen about Koan
Threedee Shepherd: I don't know Isen. I would like to find a Koan master to study with.
Sky Szimmer: Wow, you all look so interesting today
Sky Szimmer: a very tribal feel to today's meeting
Gaya Ethaniel: Think first thing to do is to meet Isen. Let me introduce you or you could always join zazen
Adelene Dawner: 'Interesting?' I always look like this. ^.-
Faenik: could be
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'thanks Sky'
Fael Illyar usually looks close to this too.
Sky Szimmer: Oh. I don't know if I met you or Threedee before, though I have read of you two.
Sky Szimmer: How is the PaB practice going with you guys.
Adelene Dawner: Interesting.
Fael Illyar is running out of questions.
Threedee Shepherd: I was at a session with you yesterday, Sky, I think.
Adelene Dawner o.Os briefly at Fael.
Fael Illyar: It feels like it's getting rare that I have a question.
Adelene Dawner: Yeah, got that. Still o.O
Threedee Shepherd: I tried You Seeing, Being Seeing today. My head expanded :)
Fael Illyar: Well, I still find some every once in a while :)
Adelene Dawner: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: o.O?
Gaya Ethaniel: like wow?
Adelene Dawner: raised eyebrow, Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel suddenly feels old
Gaya Ethaniel: oh... ok
Adelene Dawner chuckles at Gaya, feeling old.
Fael Illyar: think of it as one small eye, the nose and a big eye
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... :)
Gaya Ethaniel: very cute
Fael Illyar: I've also seen O.o, o_O and O_o, no idea if the meaning differs between them though.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Faenik: could be
Adelene Dawner: The ones with the _ are a bit more shocked, to me, instead of confused. The order of the eyes seems irrelevant.
Fael Illyar: yes, although, it's sometimes fun to respond to one with the eye order reversed :)
Adelene Dawner: Yes :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adelene Dawner's brain is a bit better than it was at the last meeting, if anyone's keeping score.
Threedee Shepherd: "You Seeing, Being Seeing" (YSBS) was suggested by Pema a while ago. Is anyuone still trying it?
Fael Illyar: No point in keeping score :)
Fael Illyar: you are what you are now, the past is past, just a story.
Adelene Dawner: Yup.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adelene Dawner grins. "Damn, I like this place."
Gaya Ethaniel: I think that's what I do most of time Threedee. On and off. Also trying out ESBS
Fael Illyar: place, or people?
Threedee Shepherd: ESBS ???
Adelene Dawner: Well yeah, Fael.
Gaya Ethaniel: Let me give you a relevant log Threedee one sec
Threedee Shepherd: k
Faenik: ah :)
Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...m_YSBS_to_ESBS
Sky Szimmer: ESBS is just a slightly different version of YSBS
Threedee Shepherd: reading log
Sky Szimmer: the main difference from I understood is that in ES, you think of seeing from that of an Enlightened one, thus the "E" in the ES.
Sky Szimmer: Ok. Log is better than my little explanation here
You decline Lemania Indigo Designs Main Store from A group member named Lemania Indigo.
Adelene Dawner: I'd seen the concept - Pema talked about it in an email to the group - but I'm not sure what's meant by 'enlightened', here. I'm reading the log too.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes the 'definition' is in the log
Sky Szimmer: enlightened one is whomever you like to think of, yourself, the Buddha, God
Fael Illyar: Hi Storm :)
Sky Szimmer: Hi Storm!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adelene Dawner: Ah. So just what I've been doing then. ^.^
Storm Nordwind: Hi! :)
Sky Szimmer: You seem like you have great intuition about what we are talking about here Adelene, from I've read
Adelene Dawner: Seems like it. *shrug*
Threedee Shepherd: I'm still learning the YS-to-BS transition. ES seems a ways off for me, I think.
Adelene Dawner: Only as far as you think it is, Three. ^.^
Sky Szimmer: though, I thought I had great intuition too but now I am not sure
Threedee Shepherd: I KNEW you would say that ;)
Fael Illyar has given up trying to claim she doesn't have intuition about things here.
Adelene Dawner: 'cause it's True!
Threedee Shepherd: ouch!
Adelene Dawner: :D
Sky Szimmer: intuition is still part of Being
Sky Szimmer: just thoughts in the present
Gaya Ethaniel: What do you mean by intuition here?
Gaya Ethaniel: Somehow just knowing/understanding?
Sky Szimmer: right
Fael Illyar: Gaya, yes, pretty much
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Faenik: why not?
Sky Szimmer: but then, i have been starting to question about that understanding
Sky Szimmer: which maybe a good thing
Gaya Ethaniel: perhaps yes
Sky Szimmer: start to get in trouble when we think we know something
Gaya Ethaniel recalls 'arrogance' from the log
Sky Szimmer: yes. i have fallen into that trap before : )
Threedee Shepherd: I relate intuition to bodily sensations as signals and triggers "embodiment"
Gaya Ethaniel: wow Threedee you are one of the first to raise 'bodily sensation' together with what we do here... thought I was alone in that way
Sky Szimmer: how does that feel?
Fael Illyar always gets a great urge to say 'Mu' when asked if she knows what Being is.
Gaya Ethaniel: what do you mean by 'that'?
Fael Illyar: nothing else seems to fit :)
Sky Szimmer: whom?
Sky Szimmer: Threedee, can you explain more of what you are describing>
Faenik: indeed?
Threedee Shepherd: All learning and acting of the physical corpus involves muscles, first and last
Sky Szimmer: yes...
Threedee Shepherd: so all thought also includes "motor memory" and "motor mimicry, even if not outwardly"
Sky Szimmer: yes....
Sky Szimmer: are you saying that motor memories, our physical sensations are also thoughts?
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Threedee Shepherd: It is sort of like the broad idea that all being is one, applied more locally, at sensation-thought-brain-mind level.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Fael Illyar: At least they're things you're experiencing
Fael Illyar: trying to deny them has similar results to trying to deny a thought
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Storm Nordwind: I is certainly true that diagnostic healers (spiritual healers) can resonate with their patients symptoms as though they were their own
Threedee Shepherd: the body knows, first... interpretation at the level of consciousness comes after.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Though certain people are more sensitive/aware of their bodily sensations than others
Sky Szimmer: i am sorry but my RL today is a handful... I must run. Can someone send the rest of this log in?
Storm Nordwind: Sure Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Good evening Sky
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Sky Szimmer: thx!
Storm Nordwind: Bye Sky
Fael Illyar: See you later Sky :)
Threedee Shepherd: yes. It is something I am--at this late age--learning to attend to more than I did in the past. A kind of active meditation
Gaya Ethaniel: Some people I found have more or less complete break between their body and mind
Threedee Shepherd: by sky
Gaya Ethaniel: I found them often very 'streesy'
Gaya Ethaniel: stressy*
Storm Nordwind: It is something that can be trained in most people, a greater awareness... well of almost anything!
Gaya Ethaniel nods at Threedee
Fael Illyar: stressy... as in stressed? Or perhaps stressful to be with?
Threedee Shepherd: It is interesting how that complete break seems to result in being left in one's head, not one's body :D
Gaya Ethaniel: yep just being generally agitated and easily get stressed
Gaya Ethaniel: Though they think they are doing the right thing by focusing on the mental process exclusively
Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps the disconnect of body/'head' leads to sensations in body that are not noted simultaneously with outward triggers. So later all that'sa left is stress??
Gaya Ethaniel: possibly Threedee but I haven't been able to articulate into a 'hypothesis'
Threedee Shepherd: Just a thought, really...
Gaya Ethaniel: Just know that we are both mind and body and in order to be aware fully, we need to be aware of both
Threedee Shepherd: true
Gaya Ethaniel is not very philosophical :P
Threedee Shepherd: A book: http://www.amazon.com/Meaning-Body-A...7882267&sr=8-1
Threedee Shepherd: Gaya IS, that's everything
Gaya Ethaniel: oh... looks interesting thanks Threedee!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Faenik: indeed?
Threedee Shepherd: too many books, too little time :)
Gaya Ethaniel knows what Threedee means
Gaya Ethaniel: erk only hardcover... hurts my arms on the trains
Storm Nordwind: We only have too little time if we think something else is more important... like sitting here maybe! :)
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Faenik: could be
Threedee Shepherd: Storm, that leads me to wonder about discussing curiousity
Fael Illyar: Too many books to read in my lifetime in the world ;)
Threedee Shepherd: :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Fael Illyar: as such, too little time to read each single one :)
Faenik: なるほど^^
Gaya Ethaniel: Whatever I read, I learn something so I don't mind not being able to read them all :)
Threedee Shepherd: I think of curiousity as different from "desire" and now that curiousity is endless
Threedee Shepherd: *know that
Fael Illyar: curiosity different from desire ... sounds like something to ponder about :)
Storm Nordwind: What can happen is desire for other things can get in the way of the joys of curiousity
Threedee Shepherd: yes
Storm Nordwind: Like the desire for me to be lazy, for example!
Threedee Shepherd: :D
Fael Illyar: desire to be lazy ... o_O
Storm Nordwind: I used to put things off, but now I never seem to get around to it!
Fael Illyar: hehe :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Curiosity can be both good and bad I think. Depends on how we decide to act upon it
Fael Illyar: I recall having problems deciding which of all the things I had been doing to do. :)
Threedee Shepherd: I find that many things that get "put off" end up not needing to be done anyway :D
Fael Illyar: was an interesting problem at first, considering the most common problem before that had been figuring out what to do.
Gaya Ethaniel is still pondering on Fael's comments
Gaya Ethaniel: What enabled you to change in thinking differently?
Fael Illyar: in part SL but it didn't really change completely until I started participating in PaB.
Fael Illyar: I've pretty much lost boredom while here.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... yes I understand
Fael Illyar: it wasn't a problem of not figuring out things to do but not feeling like doing any of what I figured out.
Storm Nordwind: I have struggled to understand the reasons for boredom. I never feel it, but my ex of 10 years felt it frequently.
Fael Illyar: it's based on the false belief that there is nothing interesting.
Storm Nordwind nods
Threedee Shepherd: ahh, boredom, I know it and am exploring it by meditation, nothing useful to report yet...
Faenik: ah :)
Fael Illyar: I had it recently try to rear it's head again but it wasn't there for long.
Storm Nordwind: My father used to tell me when I was little (a VERY long time ago): "Life is what you make it". So I guess I made it so I wasn't bored
Gaya Ethaniel: For me, I tried not to distract myself when bored. Try to look at boredom rather than doing an activity to 'relieve' boredom
Storm Nordwind: Interesting
A group member named Tori Heart gave you New Goth Fantasy for the girls + New raffle prize..
Gaya Ethaniel: how so?
Storm Nordwind: There may be a good evolutionary reason for boredom. I've not explored that possibility.
Threedee Shepherd: yes, gaya, I see not distracting oneself as allowing the mundane to be Being.
Gaya Ethaniel enjoys 'looking at boredom'
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Adelene Dawner: But the mundane *is* Being. Everything's Being.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Just accept good bad and the ugly the whole package
Threedee Shepherd: mundane is being is what I was trying to say
Faenik: could be
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Threedee I understood you that way
Threedee Shepherd: is "accept" the best term? I accept that hatred exists, but I don't excuse it. I wonder if one word covers that distinction?
Gaya Ethaniel: Er... possibly not Threedee. My vocab not very wide ranging
Gaya Ethaniel: Recognise or aware?
Threedee Shepherd: I like aware
Gaya Ethaniel: cool
Gaya Ethaniel: Recognise, aware and accept all part of the same process i guess
Faenik: could be
Threedee Shepherd: aware has a sense of non-judgement about it that "accept" seems to sometimes imply.
Gaya Ethaniel: I guess accept here I mean more acknowledging
Gaya Ethaniel sighs over the difficulties of 'talking' about Being
Threedee Shepherd: true, it is hard, and pointing from many directions helps
Gaya Ethaniel: So 'seeing, ackowledging and being aware' could be better way of saying
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Adelene Dawner: Accept means it IS, regardless of what you think of it - your thoughts about it, your judgement of it, is separate from the reality of the thing and generally irrelevant to the existance of that thing.
Threedee Shepherd: If accept is limited to that definition, I agree
Gaya Ethaniel: ok I see
Threedee Shepherd: Gaya to go back a few "lines" perhaps "seeing" IS acknowledgement
Storm Nordwind: There are plenty of people who can accept something is, and can also accept that they want to change what is. And then they co ahead and change it! So that too becomes what is! :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes seeing could lead to ackowledgement that's why accept can be useful to an extent
Threedee Shepherd: can you change what is, or do you change what will be in the next "is"
Storm Nordwind: There's a difference? :)
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... I didn't include 'feeling the need to change' in the acceptance
Gaya Ethaniel: Don't think everyone feels the need after seeing/accepting
Storm Nordwind: The change is part of the IS
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it comes naturally but not by 'trying' to change
Gaya Ethaniel: By seeing, I'm changing the 'reality'
Threedee Shepherd: Enigmatic statement, but relevant: Consciousness is memory of the future.
Gaya Ethaniel recalls 1 AM session with Wol and Fael
Gaya Ethaniel: and Tahuti
Storm Nordwind: Gaya, what is the difference when viewed from someone else's point of view?
Gaya Ethaniel: ah Threedee what do you mean? I'm curious to know
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry Storm, could you rephrase? Don't get the question
Faenik loves wells!
Storm Nordwind: Gaya, you said "Yes it comes naturally but not by 'trying' to change"
Threedee Shepherd: All conscious thought happens after the event that triggers it and that the body experiences. So it is no longer about now, but thinking of how to apply what has happened to the future *now*
Gaya Ethaniel: OK so Threedee you think we are blank pages when born?
Storm Nordwind: So I mean that what you see as trying and not perhpas natural change, is no different to natural change when seen by someone else
Threedee Shepherd: not sure...
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... that's complex Storm. I need to think more later on that
Storm Nordwind nods
Gaya Ethaniel: Just one question though Storm
Gaya Ethaniel: So you don't necessarily think 'trying consciously' is counter-productive then?
Storm Nordwind: Depends what it is.
Gaya Ethaniel: Depends on what we are trying for?
Threedee Shepherd: folks, I need to respond to a RL phone call, so bye until next time :)
Storm Nordwind: If I try to ride a bike for the first time, that's probably good
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Gaya Ethaniel: Good evening Threedee
Fael Illyar: See you later ThreeDee :)
Storm Nordwind waves to Threedee
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure Storm, sounds like we are on similar pages here... will think about it again
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Faenik: could be
Storm Nordwind: By the way Gaya, I really love the outfit - elf or firefly or whatever. It's really great! And your ARC has shot down too so you are far less laggy for everyone.
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks :) What's ARC?
Fael Illyar: Avatar Rendering Cost
Gaya Ethaniel: Ah...
Storm Nordwind: It's the stress you put on your own and everyone else's graphics cards
Storm Nordwind: We all have one
Gaya Ethaniel: I wanted to be an insect today.... they live so short and so fragile
Gaya Ethaniel: I had no idea...
Storm Nordwind: Does this insect have a name (apart from Gaya!)?
Gaya Ethaniel: No... not yet but I was looking for a small butterfly yet to find one I like so settle for this one
Storm Nordwind: Well i do hope you wear it again sometime - when it gets reborn! :)
Faenik: why not?
Gaya Ethaniel thinks she looks rather 70s retro
Gaya Ethaniel: This one?
Adelene Dawner: Definitely go check out Grendel's, Gaya. They have a few butterfly avs, if I remember correctly - definitely a selection of insects.
Storm Nordwind: Yes this one Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'sure Storm'
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Adele but you called me here from Grendel :P
Adelene Dawner: Ah ^.^
Gaya Ethaniel: ^_-
Adelene Dawner may be about to be jubilant.
Gaya Ethaniel: PaB better than shopping and i don't get sick from moving about
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: Well that reminds me.... should go to Grendel's :)
Adelene Dawner: not jubilant now. Perhaps later. ^.^
Gaya Ethaniel: Must IM me before you go jubilant Adele
Adelene Dawner: kk
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for the conversation everyone and have a good night/good day
Faenik: could be
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Fael Illyar: See you later Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Fael hope to catch you later
Storm Nordwind: Well I will disappear too
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
Adelene Dawner: c'ya, Storm
Fael Illyar: See you later Storm :)
Fael Illyar: Well, I guess I'll move elsewhere too :)
Fael Illyar: See you later Adelene :)
Adelene Dawner: k, cya Fael