2008.08.05 01:00 - Dropping Extra Baggage

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    That night, I (Pema) was surprised to meet a group of no less than five avatars when I arrived at the pavilion: Adelene, Fael, Genesis, Thorberg and Wol.

    genesis Zhangsun: Morning Fael
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo Pem ^.^
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Wol Euler: guten morgen, Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi there!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Pema
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Pema
    Pema Pera: Guten morgen, Wol
    Pema Pera: Don't know how to say that in Finnish :)
    Pema Pera: Morning, Adelene and Gen!
    Pema Pera: Hi Thorberg, good morning!
    Pema Pera: What a crowd at this early hour!
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Pema
    Faenik: why not?
    Fael Illyar: yes, quite a crowd for 1AM :)
    Pema Pera: I can't remember having seen half a dozen people here at 1 am :)
    Wol Euler smiles. I'd been feeling quite sorry for you, Pema, taking all those 1 a.m. sessions, until I worked out that astronomers probably work at night.
    Fael Illyar: speaking of which, my session from 3 days ago is now on the wiki :)
    Pema Pera: hahaha, Wol, some do
    Thorberg Nordlicht: maybe everyone else is abusing the caffeine tonight like I am
    Pema Pera: ah, thanks Fael!
    Pema Pera: Well, here in Berkeley we had a meeting with five guardians, just a few hours ago!
    Pema Pera: Gen was there, I was there, Cal and Sky and Doug were there too.
    Adelene Dawner has actually already had 5 hours' sleep, and honestly thought that it was 7 when her alarm went off for this ^.^
    Pema Pera: very interesting to meet at a place where you could actually eat and drink what was in front of you!
    Thorberg Nordlicht: sorry I missed that; any plan to make it over to the SF Peninsula, Pema
    Wol Euler: wow
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Pema Pera: haha, yes, the time is even harder for you, Adelene
    Pema Pera: Thorberg, you live near SF?
    Adelene Dawner: It's ok. I seem to have misplaced my circadian rhythm a few weeks ago, so as long as I get enough hours' sleep, it's not a problem - my body doesn't notice any difference.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, I'm in Belmont, about a half hour south of SF
    Pema Pera: We sent a couple emails to the whole group last week, but then when no one else reacted, we didn't want to spam others
    Pema Pera: would have been great to have you here too!
    Thorberg Nordlicht: no problem; next time
    Pema Pera: sure
    Pema Pera: Cal is in Texas, was here for work visit
    Pema Pera: like me
    Pema Pera: Gen, Sky, Doug all in the area -- Stim couldn't come because his father had passed away last week
    genesis Zhangsun: Yes it was quite fun to see everyone in person
    genesis Zhangsun: funny how people actually looked like their avatars
    Wol Euler grins
    Pema Pera: (apart from my hair length . . . )
    genesis Zhangsun: well maybe it was just me superimposing the avatar on the person hard to tell
    genesis Zhangsun: :)

    Caspian joined us, so we were with seven!

    Fael Illyar: Hello Caspian
    Caspian Inglewood: hello
    Wol Euler: morning Caspian
    Pema Pera: Hi Caspian!
    genesis Zhangsun: hey caspian
    Caspian Inglewood: looks like sl is improving a little
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo Caspian
    Pema Pera: Wow, seven of us at this time, quite a group!
    Caspian Inglewood: :)
    Caspian Inglewood: good to see you all
    Caspian Inglewood: are transactions back on line?
    Caspian Inglewood: does anyone know?
    Wol Euler: I still keep seeing group IMs about failures, so I'd say "no"
    Thorberg Nordlicht: "transactions"?
    Caspian Inglewood: http://status.secondlifegrid.net/
    Wol Euler: the asset server appears to have the hiccups again
    Caspian Inglewood: there is a major issue right now affecting most of sl
    Wol Euler: LL is warning not to buy or sell for the next while
    Wol Euler: or rezz non-copy objects
    Thorberg Nordlicht: does this account for trouble teleporting earlier tonight?
    Caspian Inglewood: yes it does
    Thorberg Nordlicht: several people reported
    Faenik: could be
    Caspian Inglewood: also, for a while, everyone was ruthed
    Thorberg Nordlicht: good, so it wasn't just me; i was in a last minute panic to get here to host the 7PM session
    Wol Euler quite likes Ruth, actually.
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Caspian Inglewood: I like peanut butter, also
    Caspian Inglewood: so is there a meeting?
    Pema Pera: this is it, yes :)
    Caspian Inglewood: hm, ok

    Wol responded to Gen's report, a week ago.

    Wol Euler: Gen, I read the transccript of 29/7, your decision. I think that is wonderful, I'm so pleased for you!
    Wol Euler: it must be an enormous relief.
    genesis Zhangsun: Thank you Wol, yes indeed it was a hard decision but it was what felt right

    Caspian then asked about the PaB explorations that we are doing here.

    Caspian Inglewood: I have very simple question for the group
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Caspian Inglewood: of what benefit is 9 second meditation?
    Caspian Inglewood: reminds me of quick exercise commercials
    Fael Illyar: it's not the length but the frequency.
    Fael Illyar: every 15 minutes
    Fael Illyar: it trains you to drop everything fast.
    Caspian Inglewood: I guess the Buddha should have sat under the Bodhi tree for 9 seconds
    Adelene Dawner: We were talking about this at the last meeting, actually - it's not the 9 seconds. It's what the 9 seconds does to the rest of your time.
    Caspian Inglewood: ok
    Fael Illyar: Yes, the 9 seconds is for dropping extra baggage.
    Caspian Inglewood: really, I didn't mean to sound harsh, have only been wondering about this
    Fael Illyar: For some things, longer meditation seems to work better. I do those too, although not as regularly as PaB explorations.
    Caspian Inglewood: sounds good on paper
    Caspian Inglewood: how is it in practice?
    genesis Zhangsun: well you only know if you try
    Thorberg Nordlicht: helps me reset my perspective to the "big picture"
    Caspian Inglewood: what is this big picture?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((thinking))
    Thorberg Nordlicht: opposite of being "lost in the details"; seeing the forest instead of being lost in the trees
    Fael Illyar: if you use alarms every15 minutes, it'll usually jolt you out of whatever you've submerged yourself into and other thoughts have a chance to bubble to surface.
    Caspian Inglewood: I am not saying one cannot meditate for 9 seconds
    Fael Illyar: when you're learning awareness, you get a reminder every 15 minutes
    Caspian Inglewood: why not every moment meditation? :)
    genesis Zhangsun: good point caspian
    genesis Zhangsun: why not?
    Fael Illyar: Caspian, that's the goal, really :)
    Caspian Inglewood: also, you visualize things during these 9 seconds?
    Caspian Inglewood: is this correct?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: leads to "every moment", but for some of us, we're usually so lost in the details, we have to take small steps -- 9 seconds at a time -- to get back to the big picture
    Fael Illyar: visualize? I guess it depends on the person doing it.
    Caspian Inglewood: ah, I thought you were to visualize something
    Caspian Inglewood: maybe I read wrong
    Fael Illyar: I just drop everything, like in zen
    genesis Zhangsun: do you visualize?
    Faenik: could be
    Adelene Dawner: Well, the YSBS exercise could be seen as a visualization. Not really, though.
    Caspian Inglewood: no, never
    Caspian Inglewood: if I do, I would only consider this delusion
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
    Caspian Inglewood: nothing revealing, nothing special

    Bert joined us, for a record of eight avatars during a nightly PaB session.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Bert :)
    Caspian Inglewood: concerning meditation
    Pema Pera: Hi Bert!
    Wol Euler: ello Bert
    Caspian Inglewood: hi bert
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Bertrun
    Thorberg Nordlicht: to me, "visualization" suggests holding an image in the mind not necessarily corresponding to anything in envronment; whereas, "meditation" suggests "seeing things as they really are"
    Bertrum Quan: hi everyone
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hello
    Caspian Inglewood: indeed; so visualizations are something extra
    Caspian Inglewood: and cannot be considered meditative
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, i would agree "visualizaions" are "someting extra"
    Caspian Inglewood: only if you can see through them, maybe then they are simply byproduct of the meditative experience
    Caspian Inglewood: but as for garnering some deep insights?
    Caspian Inglewood: I am skeptical
    Thorberg Nordlicht: no problem with "something extra" as a tool or technique, but to me, meditation suggests dropping "something extra"
    Caspian Inglewood: agreed
    Caspian Inglewood: so why do you meditate?
    Caspian Inglewood: lol, this is the fundamental question, is it not?
    Faenik: indeed?
    Caspian Inglewood: everyone wants meditation but they think about it in terms of medicine and disease
    Thorberg Nordlicht: Zen tradition suggests not meditating to achieve anything; Zazen is "big mind" (metaphor) expressing itself through us, not something "we" are doing
    Fael Illyar: Meditation is a sort of house cleaning to me. Cleaning your mind so there is room for new thoughts.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: in Zen tradition, Zazen has an effect, but it's nothing you can expect or intend ahead of time
    Caspian Inglewood: it is true, when doing zazen you do nothing
    Caspian Inglewood: this only means no more karma
    Thorberg Nordlicht: Zazen entails letting go of attachment and non-attachment releases you from karma (maybe not expressing that very well)
    Thorberg Nordlicht: in this understanding, karma is the effect (or echo) of attachment; no attachment, no echo, no karma
    Faenik: ah :)
    Caspian Inglewood: if mind does not make anything
    Caspian Inglewood: no karma
    Thorberg Nordlicht: are we agreeing? nobody's going to challange me on my characterization of karma?
    Caspian Inglewood: zazen is a pile of dung
    Caspian Inglewood: lol
    Fael Illyar can't really claim to know what karma is.

    Caspian had been asking critical questions about Play as Being, but he seemed to be under the impression that our explorations are a kind of Buddhist meditation, which he then compared with his own understanding of his own form of Buddhism. I tried to indicate the much more general character of PaB.

    Pema Pera: The Play as Being explorations, 9 sec every 15 minutes, are an openended way of looking deeper into reality -- they are not Zen or other forms of Buddhism, nor Hinduism nor any other religion. These explorations are compatible with any religion, and also compatible with sheer curiosity. Some of the people coming here are inspired more by Hinduism, some more by Christianity, and some are not interested in any religion at all.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, that too; a Zen master would never disagree with that
    Pema Pera: and a Zen master could disagree too, depending on the context
    Thorberg Nordlicht: agreed
    Caspian Inglewood: so they are like an Eckhart Tolle meditation?
    Caspian Inglewood: or maybe 10 minute abs
    Pema Pera: they are not "like" anything in particular
    Pema Pera: Have you tried it yourself, Caspian?
    Caspian Inglewood: 9 seconds?
    Caspian Inglewood: no use

    At this point it became clear that Caspian had come to argue with us about something he wasn't even interested in trying out himself. Although we all politely tried to answer his questions, it was clear from our responses that we were wondering what the point was of attacking something you're not really interested looking into.

    Adelene Dawner: They are like themselves. Why do they have to be 'like' something?
    Wol Euler: Caspian, I am intrigued by your certainty. You seem to have very clear and hard-lined ideas about what is right and wrong, abut what others should do.
    Caspian Inglewood: this is only a little gadlfy maybe
    Pema Pera: why talk about something if you don't even want to try it? Why judge a restaurant without eating there at least once?
    Wol Euler: gadflies get swatted
    Caspian Inglewood: that is sophistry
    Caspian Inglewood: if 9 second meditation worked, then the Buddha was a liar
    Caspian Inglewood: only hard practice
    Fael Illyar: Buddha was human. Humans make mistakes.
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
    Adelene Dawner: define 'worked'
    Caspian Inglewood: but the Buddha was not in error Fael
    Caspian Inglewood: I don't know, that is the question right
    Wol Euler: ah!
    Caspian Inglewood: i have already asked, but nobody quite said what this 9 second meditation even does
    Fael Illyar: what does longer meditation do?
    Caspian Inglewood: looks at Fael
    Caspian Inglewood: hits ground
    Wol Euler: very dramatic, but the question is valid.
    Caspian Inglewood: karma is not overcome in 9 seconds, ok?
    Fael Illyar: you're effectively asking what does meditation do.
    Caspian Inglewood: we sit many times, sometimes for very long periods
    Caspian Inglewood: because we have very bad attachments
    Caspian Inglewood: maybe anger, maybe desires
    Adelene Dawner: Caspian, if you're so sure we're wrong, why are you here?
    Caspian Inglewood: 9 seconds cannot do this
    Faenik: could be
    Wol Euler: ah!
    Caspian Inglewood: maybe 9 seconds can make you feel fuzzy
    Caspian Inglewood: but this is not, nor never will be, correct style meditation
    Fael Illyar: Looks to me as if Caspian has an attachment to thinking the 9 seconds doesn't work
    Bertrum Quan: Correct style?
    Wol Euler: lol
    Caspian Inglewood: I realize I upset the balance
    Adelene Dawner still wants to know why.
    Caspian Inglewood: but play as being is a fad
    Bertrum Quan: Was does correct style mean?
    Caspian Inglewood: it has never been tested
    Caspian Inglewood: as Buddhism has
    Fael Illyar: Caspian, what do you think we're doing here?
    Fael Illyar: we're testing it
    Caspian Inglewood: correct style is sitting for all people
    Caspian Inglewood: not for myself
    Caspian Inglewood: and not for "my" clarity
    Wol Euler: balls, m'dear

    Lol, Wol.

    Wol Euler: bye all, see you at 1 pm
    Caspian Inglewood: it is like most new age styles
    Caspian Inglewood: always something new, a nice technique
    Bertrum Quan: Sitting is one style
    Caspian Inglewood: but in the end, it cannot deliver
    Caspian Inglewood: because it does not scratch the surface of the true question
    Caspian Inglewood: what am I?
    Caspian Inglewood: and what do I do here?
    Pema Pera: what do you do here?
    Caspian Inglewood: only go straight Pema
    Caspian Inglewood: maybe you like gathering for conversation, I have no problem with this
    Adelene Dawner: Caspian, I wonder if you realize how disruptive you sound.
    Caspian Inglewood: I have no problem with play as being, even
    Caspian Inglewood: but you wonder why when I come sometimes I seem to not be into it
    Caspian Inglewood: this is why
    Caspian Inglewood: disruption should be no problem
    Caspian Inglewood: if one practiced correct meditation
    Caspian Inglewood: lol
    Adelene Dawner: It's not a problem. I just wondered if you realized it.
    Caspian Inglewood: ok, I am being an ass
    Caspian Inglewood: but really, if you were honest
    Fael Illyar: It's not a problem. Not for me at least.
    Caspian Inglewood: you would say what I am saying
    Caspian Inglewood: 9 second meditaion is bs
    Pema Pera: we agree
    Pema Pera: we call it Being Seeing
    Fael Illyar: Caspian, you're free to have an _opinion_ :)
    Caspian Inglewood: and I apologize if I have been disruptive
    Caspian Inglewood: I will just listen
    Adelene Dawner: Thank you, Caspian.
    Caspian Inglewood: my tongue has been evil tonight
    Caspian Inglewood: should have put the cork in the stopper
    Adelene Dawner: We all have our days, Cas. ^.^
    Caspian Inglewood: :)
    Caspian Inglewood: this was disrespectful of me, truly
    Fael Illyar: Although, I suspect that, without these meetings, 9 seconds, alone, wouldn't get you all the way.
    Faenik: why not?
    Fael Illyar: but it will get you some of the way.
    Caspian Inglewood: I like everyone here, and do not wish to feed division
    Caspian Inglewood: maybe Fael
    Caspian Inglewood: 9 second meditation is better than none at all
    Caspian Inglewood: I will leave it with this :)
    Caspian Inglewood: please excuse my rudeness tonight
    Caspian Inglewood: I shall not return to disturb any more of your meetings
    Caspian Inglewood takes a humble bow

    At this, Caspian left.

    Pema Pera: take care, Caspian
    Caspian Inglewood: you also
    Thorberg Nordlicht: good night
    Fael Illyar: Bye Caspian
    Thorberg Nordlicht: hmm, interesting encounter; haven't had that experience in Monday 7 PM session; somebody took offense and left in a huff one time, but nothing like this; this happen often in other sessions?
    Pema Pera: He has been like this many times
    Pema Pera: in one way or another
    Thorberg Nordlicht: i see
    Pema Pera: the problem seems to be that somehow he has one particular ideal
    Pema Pera: a Korean zen master
    Pema Pera: who he is emulating
    Thorberg Nordlicht: well, everyone seemed to handle it gracefully under the circumstances
    Fael Illyar: He seem to be attached to his ideal.
    Pema Pera: without understanding
    Pema Pera: just copying
    Pema Pera: yes, I'm very impressed by how the group handled it
    Pema Pera: thank you all :)
    Faenik: indeed?
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Pema Pera: He seems to be both dedicated and extremely narrow
    Pema Pera: rather unusual combination
    Pema Pera: in RL you could probably get a sense
    Pema Pera: from body language
    Pema Pera: here it is hard to know what is going on behind the screen at the other side :)
    Bertrum Quan: There seems to me to be an ego issue at the heart of it...
    Pema Pera: but which one?
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry to change topic but Fael u mentioned that 9 seconds will take you part of the way what will get you all the way?
    Fael Illyar: It's something I'm not sure of :)
    Adelene Dawner suspects that the people who've found the answer to *that* question, aren't here any more to tell us ^.^


    genesis Zhangsun: I think there was a good instinct there but maybe you can expand on what inspired this?
    Pema Pera: maybe the people who've found the answer are there, all the time :)
    Fael Illyar: It's something that appeared in my mind while talking with Caspian. I realized that I don't feel like it'd be correct to just tell him "You're wrong".
    Faenik: indeed?
    Pema Pera: What he says is not wrong per se
    Pema Pera: he is copying a zen master
    Pema Pera: but out of context
    Pema Pera: that's the problem
    Pema Pera: he has no idea
    Bertrum Quan: My impression was that what he had to say really had nothing to do with the 9-second meditation
    Fael Illyar: Yes, he said nothing that really touched it
    Bertrum Quan: He wanted to prove himself the master,,,
    genesis Zhangsun: seems like his behavior is very compulsive like he has turrets?
    Bertrum Quan: I'm sorry to say it so bluntly,
    Pema Pera: interesting idea, Gen
    Adelene Dawner: Tourette's doesn't work quite like that, and it's rather rude to comment on someone's neurology like that.
    Faenik loves wells!
    genesis Zhangsun: sorry didn't mean to label
    Pema Pera: well, we are trying to be as sympathetic as we can, Adelene
    Adelene Dawner: He reads as autistic, to me, and *I'm* autistic, too, and I'm certainly not like that!
    Pema Pera: rather than dismissing him
    genesis Zhangsun: just seemed like something very involuntary in the way he spits everything out then apologizes
    Adelene Dawner: Lumping people together doesn't work in general, is my point.
    Pema Pera: so if we can understand him better in some way, it may help
    Bertrum Quan: I've been through a number of these sessions and I see them differently...
    Pema Pera: for example, if I know someone's nationality it *may* help to see where someone is coming from -- it can help separate what is unique for the individual and what may be just part of upbringing
    Adelene Dawner: I can agree with that, Pem.
    Pema Pera: the involuntary part is almost uncanny
    Pema Pera: I have seen him very friendly too, and dedicated in a rather strong way
    Pema Pera: someone who is just out to make fun of us wouldn't build a temple
    Pema Pera: and organize meetings the way he does
    Pema Pera: he seems to be honest in his own way, just very narrow
    Pema Pera: AND compulsive and then apologietic
    Faenik: ah :)
    Pema Pera: I have no idea what the neurology is, but it is very unusual
    Pema Pera: Bert, you don't agree?
    Pema Pera: like a wind-up toy, very odd
    Bertrum Quan: There is a strong sense of him competing... sorry to say it.
    Pema Pera: but then why the apologizing, Bert?

    Adelene gave her perspective, which I found very helpful.

    Adelene Dawner wonders if she should explain what she thinks is happening with him, from an autistic-issues perspective.
    Pema Pera: he just sent me an IM, apologizing again quite strongly
    Bertrum Quan: And in that context he would most certainly build a temple of his own,
    Pema Pera: just, please Adelene!
    Bertrum Quan: He is certainly conflicted...
    Pema Pera: But in that case, Bert, he wouldn't have to come here
    Pema Pera: he can compete without teaching us lessons :)
    Adelene Dawner: Well, he's obviously interested in us - cares somehow, though I'm not sure how or why or what the details are. There's something he wants to say, or ask, or he wouldn't keep coming and talking like he does.
    Bertrum Quan: I can't know for sure. Based on my impressions on the sessions I've attended, I see a person who has a need to prove himself.
    Bertrum Quan: He was very ceompetitive with you Pema. That was obvious in prior sessions.
    Adelene Dawner: But dealing with groups requires doing certain mental things that are hard, for autistics - I suspect very strongly that he's coming with decent intentions, not trying to be a jerk, and getting tripped up over the difficulty in expressing himself to a group.
    Pema Pera: that fits with my impression and intuition, Adelene
    Pema Pera: Did you read the confrontation session I had with him?
    Adelene Dawner: I think so, a while ago - I don't remember it clearly though.
    Pema Pera: just a sec
    Fael Illyar: What Caspian said made me think about what I do. I do both PaBs and Zen meditation.
    Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/2008/07/03/all-is-well/
    Fael Illyar: There are times when I feel I need to do Zen.
    Fael Illyar: So I go and do it.
    Fael Illyar: The Zen I do is a bit irregular as I only do any when I feel like it.
    Fael Illyar: PaBs I keep doing
    Bertrum Quan: Can we change the subject for a moment?

    Given that Zen had come up now a few times, I wanted to point out how different Zen is from the charicature we had just seen.

    Pema Pera: Let me add one more thing
    Pema Pera: about that session I just gave the URL for
    Pema Pera: I asked him whether he was playing games -- he said no, and seemed surprised, and I judged his surprise as authentic. The whole conversation seemed to point in that direction -- that he was in his own way honestly trying to emulate an ideal of a zen master, Seung Sahn, for whom he has tremendous respect -- but he imitates him literally, saying the words, without having any sense of the context, it seems.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Pema Pera: and yes, Fael, Zen and PaB are one possible combination
    Pema Pera: can work very well together
    Pema Pera: there are many other combinations too
    Adelene Dawner: The problem is likely more in understanding the context in realtime than it is in understanding the words.
    Pema Pera: but Caspian's zen is a charicature
    Fael Illyar: Bert, what did you want to talk about?
    Pema Pera: something that can put people off with respect to zen
    Pema Pera: which would be a great pity
    Pema Pera: Zen is great
    Pema Pera: shouldn't be misunderstood that way
    Pema Pera: yes, Bert?
    Bertrum Quan: I just wanted to say that Genesis' narrative is compelling enough evidence that PaB has an effect,,,
    Bertrum Quan: It's a very powerful narrative.
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Pema Pera: none of us doubt that PaB is effective -- everyone who has tried has testified to that

    At this point I was on two minds at this point; to drop the topic, or to find closure in some sense by putting it in a wider perspective. I decided to do the latter, given that this will surely not be the last time that someone will try to engage us in a one-sided dialogue.

    Pema Pera: the funny thing is, Caspian doesn't even want to try
    Pema Pera: but sometimes it is interesting to see how you can respond to even very odd questions -- not a bad exercise, for a while, as long as it doesn't dominate too many sessions
    Bertrum Quan: Well, that's a reasonable approach. But, at what point, do you say enough is enough?
    Pema Pera: well, Caspian said he wouldn't come back
    Pema Pera: so we'll see
    Pema Pera: one approach would be to not answer him rationally, just like he doesn't answer us rationally
    Adelene Dawner: Why would we be the one to decide that? Reality is what it is - if it's not Caspian, maybe we'll wind up dealing with someone who's not even that polite.
    Pema Pera: you may have noticed that I tried to do that -- yes Adelene
    Pema Pera: we can react spontaneously
    Pema Pera: that's the whole spirit of PaB
    Pema Pera: no rules
    Pema Pera: no regulations
    Pema Pera: no judgments
    Pema Pera: step aside and let Being speak
    Pema Pera: as best we can
    Pema Pera: and if we have trouble doing that
    Pema Pera: we can help each other
    Thorberg Nordlicht: good conversation, but we're spending a *lot* of time on this; not complaining; just an observation
    Pema Pera: to step aside better
    Pema Pera: yes, we shouldn't do this regularly
    Pema Pera: if he comes back regularly, we'll find a solution
    Pema Pera: if not, there is nothing to worry about
    Faenik: indeed?
    Pema Pera: as Adelene said, there will be others
    Pema Pera: in a way, he helps us to learn to deal with people like him
    Pema Pera: each next person will be easier to deal with
    Pema Pera: the more we learn as a group to handle oddballs
    Pema Pera: it was a great performance tonight, in that sense
    Bertrum Quan: I'm not sure each next person will be easier...
    Adelene Dawner: ... ... ... Why are we choosing to see him as a problem?
    Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, yet another "opportunity for practice"; in this case maintaining our own equanimity in spite of someone else's disruption
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Pema Pera: very much so
    Fael Illyar doesn't see Caspian as a problem.
    Adelene Dawner: You're being even more quiet than I ma, though, Fael.
    genesis Zhangsun: I concur Fael
    Adelene Dawner: than I am, even
    Fael Illyar: I talk when I've got something to say :)
    Bertrum Quan: I agree with that. But all of the conversation attemption to figure out the source of the behavior... that has become repetitive...
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Bertrum Quan: attempting
    Adelene Dawner: no problem = why bother saying anything? Being Is.
    Thorberg Nordlicht: (( i liked "attemption" :-))
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Faenik: ah :)

    There are many questions here. We could have just switched topic after Caspian left, ignoring his attacks, and then we would not have spent much time; that would have been a reasonable thing to do. Instead, we spent quite a bit of time tring to figure out what had happened, which I think was also reasonable, given the exploratory nature of all that we do. And of course, there is the question of what to do in the future. We had a variety of responses and opinions.

    Pema Pera: I wouldn't say a problem -- an opportunitiy, if anything -- but any individual who comes in and repeatedly draws all attention on him/herself, time after time, is disruptive, and after several times it would be appropriate to react -- don't have to call it a problem, but it has to be dealt with in some way -- can't let one individual hijack the whole group time and again
    Fael Illyar: did he interrupt a conversation?
    Pema Pera: interesting question
    Pema Pera: in one way, he was just giving his opinion
    genesis Zhangsun: sometimes rocks pop up in the river but the river keeps flowing does it not?
    Adelene Dawner: ... Why ... impatient... not wanting to walk through the issues he brings up? I mean, I understand time limiting things, but... are we really doing anything that's more important - and isn't 'more importnat' LoR, anethma?
    Pema Pera: but in another way, he did so without every trying the practice, and just telling us what is wrong in a way that was not a dialogue, really
    Adelene Dawner really had trouble putting words around that, sorry.

    On the contrary, Adelene was very clear, I thought; sometimes more impressionistic sentences get the sense and meaning across better than polished sentences.

    Pema Pera: we were wanting to talk, Adelene
    Pema Pera: but he did not even respond to the question why he did not try the practice
    Pema Pera: I did not see him answering our questions
    Thorberg Nordlicht: (("putting words around that"; good expression))
    Pema Pera: but I don't want to belabor the point
    Pema Pera: I'm happy to let go and see what happens next time
    Faenik: why not?
    Fael Illyar: Note that he didn't take the whole meeting :)
    Fael Illyar: (well, you could claim he did, but that's really our doing, no-one is forcing us to talk about him)
    Pema Pera: :)

    But yes, it did seem time to switch the topic now, back to the original one.

    genesis Zhangsun: Sorry to change the topic and not to flatter myself ;) but Bert what did you find interesting about "my" narrative
    Bertrum Quan: That you were able to walk away without fear.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    genesis Zhangsun: could you connect with this moment?
    Bertrum Quan: You expressed a situation th
    Thorberg Nordlicht: ((glad you asked; i wondered that too, but didn't want to interrupt conversation thread))
    Bertrum Quan: I felt that your action is at the heart of issues we all face from time to time with attachments.
    Bertrum Quan: I was moved by what you related,
    Thorberg Nordlicht: brb
    Pema Pera: Hi Bestra!
    Pema Pera: come join us
    genesis Zhangsun: how so?
    Bestra Tsure: hello
    Bestra Tsure: terve
    Pema Pera: please take a seat!
    genesis Zhangsun: about attachment?
    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Bestra!
    Fael Illyar: Päivää
    Bestra Tsure: i can't
    Bestra Tsure: stuck here
    Pema Pera: moimoi Pema tassa
    Bestra Tsure: :)
    Faenik: ah :)

    Bestra joined us, a Finn I guess, judging from Fael's greeting.

    Bestra Tsure: how is everyone?
    Pema Pera: fine, we're just chatting here
    Pema Pera: about reality and other things :)
    Fael Illyar: I'm good :)
    Bertrum Quan: I need to bid you all a good night or day.
    Fael Illyar: Good night Bert :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Good night Bert!
    Faenik loves wells!
    genesis Zhangsun: I think I will also be bowing out :)
    Bestra Tsure: gn
    Pema Pera: Bestra, we get together here every six hours, 1 am 7 am 1 pm 7 pm
    genesis Zhangsun: good night!
    Pema Pera: see http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/ for our blog
    Pema Pera: night Gen
    Pema Pera: sleep well!
    Bestra Tsure: i'll be off to work in an hour :/
    Fael Illyar: Good night Gen :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Night :)
    Bestra Tsure: but good to know
    Pema Pera: Bestra, do you mind if we include your name in our blog?
    Bestra Tsure: nope
    Pema Pera: we put our conversations in there
    Bestra Tsure: go ahead
    Pema Pera: thank you!
    Pema Pera: I think I'm going to get some more sleep too
    Bestra Tsure: np :)
    Pema Pera: it is 2:30 am here
    Fael Illyar: Good night Pema :)
    Pema Pera: great seeing such a crowd here at 1 pm ++
    Adelene Dawner: 'night Pem
    Pema Pera: nine in total, I believe?
    Pema Pera: wow
    Bestra Tsure: :D
    Pema Pera: good night / morning
    Fael Illyar: See you later, Pema :)
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