2008.08.05 13:00 - Memory is Strange and Complex

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    That afternoon, Genesis was the guardian. Here is the chatlog, posted by Pema on special request, after he added lots of non-ascii Japanese emoticons at the beginning of the conversation. ヽ(^。^)ノ

    Gaya Ethaniel: 7 AM continues now into 1 PM session
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Adams Rubble: HELLO eVERYONE :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Pema!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Adams!
    Adams Rubble: Whoops
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^ ^.^ ^.^ :D :D :D 6 hours!
    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
    Gaya Ethaniel: for me 4:30 hours :P
    Fael Illyar: for me too 6 :)
    Pema Pera: Good afternoon, everyone!
    Threedee Shepherd: Hello Pema
    Adelene Dawner: *and* 6 sessions in a row. :D
    Gaya Ethaniel: man you remind me of myself when i first started PaB Adele
    Pema Pera: (struggling with lag)
    Adelene Dawner: hehehe
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Avastu and Storm!
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Gaya Ethaniel: just a bit intense hey
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Gen
    Pema Pera: Did I hear that correctly? 6 hours of PaB ? ? ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm hmm
    Adelene Dawner: And, now I know - it takes about 6 hours to do one medium sized box in a simple pattern while chatting. Yes! 6 hours, Pema!
    Fael Illyar: You did
    Pema Pera: wow
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    Pema Pera: AND six sessions in a row?
    Pema Pera: I mean every 6 hours?
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Adelene Dawner: yup.
    Pema Pera: (@_@)
    Gaya Ethaniel: what does that suppose to mean Pema? surprise?
    Pema Pera: whatever you like it to mean Gaya :)
    Adelene Dawner: translates to '...whoah...'
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh... great
    Pema Pera: for example . . . .
    Adelene Dawner: (at least, when I do it.)
    Pema Pera: hehe
    Storm Nordwind: or "Holy ...."
    Gaya Ethaniel just saw Pema's eye popping out
    Pema Pera: \(◎o◎)/
    Pema Pera: is that readable?
    genesis Zhangsun: lol
    Adelene Dawner: yep. Neat, Pem
    Gaya Ethaniel wonders whether to continue or start a new thread for this session
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: please continue!
    Gaya Ethaniel: over to you Adele
    Pema Pera: (●^o^●)
    Pema Pera: (*´ω`*)
    Adelene Dawner: We were mostly done talking about eye contact and various forms thereof and asshats who use eye contact agressively.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pema you make me feel old not knowing all these emoticons!
    Pema Pera: w(゜o゜)w
    Pema Pera: \(o⌒∇⌒o)/
    Fael Illyar: Gaya, they're Japanese :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: /laughs out loud
    Adelene Dawner: Gaya... they're pictures... you don't neet do 'know' them, just look at them the right way.
    Pema Pera: ☆⌒(>。≪)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've got a sticker book of emoticons from work anyway, should come in handy i guess
    Gaya Ethaniel: children's book mind you, we don't produce something like that for adults
    Pema Pera: (^-^)/♪.。.:*・゜☆.。.:*・゜☆.。.:*・゜
    Adelene Dawner guesses she's impressed Pema. ^.^
    Pema Pera: back to eye contact -- in RL?
    Fael Illyar hopes whoever is capturing the log has unicode support all the way to posting.
    Faenik: why not?
    Adelene Dawner: Yes, in RL
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles
    genesis Zhangsun: I think I am leaving this to you Pema ;)
    Pema Pera: I can fix it on the wiki
    Pema Pera: sure, Gen, fine :)
    Adelene Dawner: I just pulled my log up in notepad and it comes through fine.
    Fael Illyar: Adele, if it pastes to the wiki fine, then you're good :)
    Adelene Dawner: ...mostly.
    Threedee Shepherd: May I start.....?
    genesis Zhangsun: Please
    Adelene Dawner: go 'head
    Threedee Shepherd: I have tinnitus (ringing ears) and have had so for >20 years (and also now use hearing aids). I am noticing it is much less annoying and loud since I started Pab, especailly lately. Now, I know that reduced stress can abate tinnitus.. Still I wonder the following, is the noise trying to tell me something or block me from hearing Being? Seems like both (I need to accept its reality) and yet I *hear* better when it quiets down.
    Adelene Dawner: "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away"
    Fael Illyar: Adele, that's an excellent way to put it :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Storm Nordwind: I have had tinnitus for over 50 years. It's not going away but I can tune it out. PaB hasn't lessed my ability to do that or improved it
    Storm Nordwind: *lessened
    Fael Illyar: I occasionally have that in one ear but it goes away in a few minutes.
    genesis Zhangsun: So why do you think the tinnitus has lessened after starting PaB
    Fael Illyar: strangely, I'm sometimes able to make it go away faster by concentrating :)
    genesis Zhangsun: my question was directed at Threedee
    Threedee Shepherd: I suspect changes in awareness may have something to do with it.
    genesis Zhangsun: what sort of changes in awareness?
    Threedee Shepherd: more calmness, more openess to Being,
    genesis Zhangsun: acceptance?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    genesis Zhangsun: interesting when you open to something allow it to "exist" it isn't such a big issue anymore
    Faenik loves wells!
    Gaya Ethaniel: What prompted you to accept it Threedee?
    Fael Illyar: Gen, because, when you try to not "allow" it, you're constantly spending effort and concentrating on it.
    doug Sosa: maybe he tinnitus we hear masks reality just as our thinnking does. we can move off of it, decenter from it, and get more reality.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes exactly Fael
    Fael Illyar: Even though you really can't do a thing about it
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah... that's a good point doug
    genesis Zhangsun: wearing tinnitus lightly " :)
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    doug Sosa: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: The realization that awareness opens me to more people in a way that is non-threatening. I have always liked to help, but often it was intrusive to the other. Now, I approach more calmly
    Threedee Shepherd: doug, that is what I was pondering, too
    Storm Nordwind: It's just part of the body I inhabit. Like an arm or a leg. Dwelling on it doesn't change it for me. I'll give it up one day anyway
    doug Sosa: i sometimes have it and i can be listning to music and the tinnitus gets in the way, but i can shift awareness aay from the tinittus and the music is much cleaer.
    doug Sosa: clearer.
    genesis Zhangsun: one thing I think you asked Threedee was whether it "meant" something
    genesis Zhangsun: whether it was telling you something?
    genesis Zhangsun: is that correct?
    Threedee Shepherd: which "it"
    genesis Zhangsun: the fact that you have tinnitus
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Threedee Shepherd: I have never had the sense it was telling me anything. Just annoying noise.
    genesis Zhangsun: I think you said whether the "noise" was trying to tell you something
    genesis Zhangsun: could have been wrong
    Threedee Shepherd: perhaps
    genesis Zhangsun: Just asked because sometimes I wonder if certain ailments are trying to tell me something
    genesis Zhangsun: to slow down
    genesis Zhangsun: or to stop picking at myself
    genesis Zhangsun: sometimes the body manifests what the mind cannot
    Threedee Shepherd: Clarification: I never have the sense the noise is trying to Tell me something, as opposed to blocking me.
    Storm Nordwind: There are certainly schools of thought that relate present infirmities to past behaviours, through a specialised view on karma
    genesis Zhangsun: hmmm ok different topic perhaps
    Threedee Shepherd: no, your point that the body manifests is well taken.
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Gaya Ethaniel: sometimes the body manifests what the mind cannot - perhaps 'what the mind is not aware of'
    doug Sosa: we are manifested here but not incarnated
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Threedee Shepherd: My profession is that of neuroscientist. So, I know that the tinnitus is stress related. At one time I would have said, "Ahh, PaB is contributing to lower stress. Yet, now I ponder more deeply and try to relate my experience more broadly to Being.
    Adams Rubble: me/ wishes everyone a good afternoon or evening. bye for now :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Threedee Shepherd: bye Adams
    doug Sosa: bye.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: bye Adams!
    Adelene Dawner: bye
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    genesis Zhangsun: Gaya what do you mean by what the mind is not aware of?
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)
    Wol Euler sneaks in quietly and sits at the back
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Wol.
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes... i believe it's possible to be aware of the causes of such bodily expressions
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: Hi Wol!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Wol!
    Storm Nordwind waves to Wol
    Wol Euler: hello all the lovely grey PaBbers :-)
    Pema Pera: Wol, a while ago you brought up Unbehagen, here in a session -- I later read it on the chat log
    Gaya Ethaniel: what you said Gen implies that mind cannot 'manifest' while body can
    Pema Pera: would you mind saying a bit more about that?
    Wol Euler: yes, just a minute please.
    Pema Pera: Sorry, Gaya -- didn't mean to cut you off, please continue
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh just a short point really nothing further to add Pema
    Adelene Dawner: No, I'm interested in that, Gaya.
    Threedee Shepherd: I think there is not mind and body, only mind-body. conscious awareness relates to some aspect ofd mind-body, often not broadly though.
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes Thanks Threedee - Gen's statement points to the separateness
    Gaya Ethaniel smiles at Adele
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Adelene Dawner: ...Gen?
    genesis Zhangsun: yes
    Adelene Dawner: Did you have anything else to say about that?
    genesis Zhangsun: I don't disagree with either of those statements
    Gaya Ethaniel is now really curious if Threedee thinks whether we are 'blank pages' when born
    Threedee Shepherd: I don't know, except at a rather neurological level, which is not what I suspect you are asking :)
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Gaya Ethaniel: no i wasn't :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: but then do tell also from neurological point of view Threedee
    Adelene Dawner: On a neurological level we don't seem to be, and it's hard-to-impossible to tease the two apart once someone's old enough to work with.
    Gaya Ethaniel: you mean Adele we can't really communicate or understand enough to find out in children's mind?
    Threedee Shepherd: making and recognizing the 5-7 characteristic facial expressions (for most people) is pre-wired into the brain at birth. Even people blind from birth make the same facial expressions associated with fear, anger, happiness (etc). across all cultures
    Wol Euler nods
    Adelene Dawner: By the time a kid's old enough to communicate, they have by definition had enough interaction with their environment to be signifigantly changed by it, because speech is such a change.
    Gaya Ethaniel: i c...
    Gaya Ethaniel: didn't know that Threedee thanks
    Storm Nordwind: Sperated identical twins show a marked commonality of many behavioural and preferential characteristics which is thought to be genetic
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Threedee Shepherd: Gaya, your question has Karmic impllications I do not yet have a settled *opinion* about
    Gaya Ethaniel: how can we explain not having any memories before certain age? just underdevloped brain? i can only go back about 2.5 - 3
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh i c
    Storm Nordwind: It is possible, Gaya, that we do have memories before that, before until that time we do not have time references to place them against
    Gaya Ethaniel: perhaps Storm
    Gaya Ethaniel decides to read the book Threedee recommended very very soon
    Threedee Shepherd: Interestingly a 3 year old has memories of themselves at 2 years old that are not there when we are adults. This is assumed to be due to neural reorganization as we further develop, but no one really knows for sure.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Wol Euler: o.O wow
    Adelene Dawner: I think it's am atter of learning to encode thoughts in that way - something I still occasionally have trouble with. My earliest clear memory, at about age 2.5-3, is of something that I made a specific purposeful effort to remember.
    Gaya Ethaniel: i c
    Gaya Ethaniel: mines are not purposefully remembered...
    Wol Euler: I find it difficult to tell the diference between a true early memory, and the internalized image of a photo or a story that I was told about mysefl as a child.
    Wol Euler: The earliest _certain_ memory is one that I always believed to have been an internalized story.
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, Wol, that is an oft reported result
    Gaya Ethaniel: have you ever had times when you remember something that you know for sure is not part of your current life?
    Adelene Dawner: Mine's not that, it's somthing nobody but me would have found noteworthy.
    Gaya Ethaniel: mines are myself (though not my current behind his screen) when small
    Threedee Shepherd: I have an almost stereotypical memory situation to report :) I remember clearly (age 4.0) the moment my mother stopped what she was doing and went to the hospital to have my sister. (I am olderst of two). I then have NO memory of my sister until she is over one-year old :)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes Threedee I think that is my first memory too :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: why was the gap you think Threedee?
    Storm Nordwind: And what is the corresponding stereotypical explanation?
    Threedee Shepherd: sibling rivalry
    Wol Euler grins
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Threedee Shepherd: I went from only *adored* child to one of two.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So it was too painful a memory to remember and supressed for a year you mean?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: ohi c
    genesis Zhangsun: My memory was the actual moment my sister came out...my mother had a home birth
    Threedee Shepherd: wow
    Adelene Dawner: squicky
    genesis Zhangsun: For me I think I was just overwhelmed
    genesis Zhangsun: I don't know about sibling rivarly
    Threedee Shepherd: yeh!!
    genesis Zhangsun: more amazed
    Faenik loves wells!
    genesis Zhangsun: than anything
    Storm Nordwind: I tend not to remember things about people if we don't interact. Could that be a contributory factor?
    Adelene Dawner: Seems more likely to me, Storm.
    Threedee Shepherd: very much so, yes
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I tend to forget people I don't interact with too.
    Fael Illyar: Thinking about remembering someone like that ... Without interaction, there just isn't anything I consider important enough to remember.
    Fael Illyar: Although, characters in stories tend to stay with me a bit better even though I don't interact. I forget those pretty quickly too.
    Gaya Ethaniel: so it seems that no one has memories of their 'different lives' here
    Wol Euler shakes her head.
    Threedee Shepherd: memory is strange and complex. there are people with certain brain injuries who can make NO new conscious memories, and there are a few "normal" people who remember EVERYTHING as if its a fully stored movie (and who are debilitated by bieng such).
    Storm Nordwind: You didn't ask that Gaya! :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: i did... above
    Faenik: could be
    Adelene Dawner: [13:45] Gaya Ethaniel: have you ever had times when you remember something that you know for sure is not part of your current life?
    Wol Euler: she did :-)
    Storm Nordwind: Exactly so
    Fael Illyar: ThreeDee, debilitated?
    Threedee Shepherd: Oh, I thought you were referring to "false" memories. No, I do not.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Seen something on TV about that Threedee yes
    Storm Nordwind: No. Just because it's not part of your current life, doesn't mean it is part of a previous life
    genesis Zhangsun: yes that is a type of seperation :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: well Storm i don't know what they are to be honest
    Threedee Shepherd: remembering everything raises a "signal-to-noise" problem
    Adelene Dawner: If we're broadening it like that, I have a few... including one thing that could actually be pre-birth. Which is weird.
    genesis Zhangsun: yes?
    Storm Nordwind: I have lots of impressions. It has rarely been useful (nor have I had the opportunity or resources) to identify it as a different life
    Adelene Dawner: Mostly it's just everything being very red, the pre-birth one.
    Storm Nordwind: For all i know it could be someone else's different life! :)
    Pema Pera: ahum . . . . don't want to stop the flow but . . . . time for an auto-recording meeting in the Hall of Appearance?
    Storm Nordwind: true
    Wol Euler: oh yes
    Storm Nordwind: No one else there at the moment
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have fun :P
    Pema Pera: so as to solidify memories of PaB :)
    Wol Euler: tahnk you all, sorry I came late. I look forward to the transcript.
    genesis Zhangsun: ok well I must be going too!
    Storm Nordwind: hehe
    Pema Pera: anybody is welcome to join us
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    genesis Zhangsun: Bye everyone
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: bye Gen!
    Threedee Shepherd: I need to attend to some RL stuff. thanks everyone :)
    Fael Illyar: Ok, everyone not coming with us, See you later :)
    genesis Zhangsun: bye Pema!
    Wol Euler: good night to those not coming.
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
    Pema Pera: By Threedee!
    Adelene Dawner: later, Three ^.^
    Wol Euler: oh, could someone TP me please?
    Pema Pera: bye everybody who doesn't join us in HoA
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