2008.08.07 01:00 - Disarming Self?

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    The Guardian for this session was Pema.  Fael posted the log and provided the title, and Pema wrote the comments.

    When  I reach the pavilion I found Fael there, but as soon as we had greated each other, Wol joined us as well.  I asked about Fael's wall.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Fael!
    Fael Illyar: You remember this wall I've been talking about? It seems some people are understanding it as an attachment but it doesn't quite feel like one.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Wol!
    Wol Euler: good morning!
    Pema Pera: Yes, I was about to ask, Fael, can you say more about your wall?
    Fael Illyar: Everyone seems interested ... including me :P
    Wol Euler grins
    Pema Pera: :)
    Fael Illyar: putting it up or down feels more like moving a muscle than anything else.
    Pema Pera: can you remind us from scratch what the wall was and how you encountered it?
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Wol Euler is obsessing about RL issues and apologises in advance for possible uncommunicative
    Pema Pera: np, Wol!
    Fael Illyar: last ... Sunday or perhaps Saturday .. probably Saturday, I was visiting my mother and after I had eaten my lunch, I noticed something resembling boredom bubbling up.
    Fael Illyar: So, I sat on the sofa and started meditating.
    Fael Illyar: nothing especial about that one ... well, except that I felt tired after, which had me pondering.
    Fael Illyar: meditation before that used to energize me.
    Fael Illyar: so, I sat back down with that in mind and somehow instinctively pushed this something I call a wall down and the tiredness was gone.
    Pema Pera: By "pushing down" you meant that you found that there was a wall and you removed it, right? Pushing out of the way, or into the ground? -- just trying to make sure I completely understand
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Fael Illyar: this morning, I meditated before this meeting and realized it feels like a limb in that respect. I can put it back up but I generally want to put it back down immediately after.
    Fael Illyar: it sort of is there but not in the way
    Pema Pera: can you say more about what the wall is, or does, or how it feels?
    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, since I've been keeping it down, it feels like I'm more connected somehow. I get more emotions than I used to.
    Fael Illyar: I guess it acts as a filter of sorts
    Fael Illyar: I'm keeping it down but the drawback (?) is that I have to handle storms of emotions every now and then... well, I'm getting there.
    Fael Illyar: I keep being somewhat annoyed at the storms until I remember I shouldn't reject them.
    Fael Illyar: when I remember that, they quiet down
    Pema Pera: :) 


    I was glad to hear Fael's description.  We all reflect for a while in third person voice.

    Pema Pera: thank you for the phenomenological description!
    Pema Pera: It's great to hear you working with all that
    Fael Illyar is starting to be attached to feeling peaceful, apparently.
    Pema Pera also likes feeling peaceful :)
    Wol Euler retursn in time to say: perhaps some attachments are good.
    Pema Pera agrees wholeheartedly
    Pema Pera wonders who is the novelist writing all these 3rd person lines
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Pema Pera laughs softly
    Fael Illyar: well, I've been letting go of that attachment the past few days. It seems I can't feel peaceful attached to feeling peaceful :)
    Wol Euler: But I must go, alas. I can neither follow the conversation nor attend to presssing RL duties.
    Pema Pera: be well, Wol !
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Wol :)
    Pema Pera: thanks for stopping by
    Wol Euler: Good day, my dears, happy explorations. See you at 1pm perhaps? And I will be on duty tomorrow morning for the fisrt time, and would be grateful for moral support :-)
    Fael Illyar: sure :)
    Pema Pera: thank you very much for being on duty, Wol
    Wol Euler: Pema, you#re excused, the whole purpose was to give you time off.
    Pema Pera: Probably I won't be there at 1 am
    Wol Euler: :-)
    Pema Pera: yes, thanks!
    Wol Euler: bye for now
    Pema Pera: you're reading my mind :)
    Pema Pera: tc
    Faenik: could be
    Pema Pera: In terms of "self" or "ego" or whatever people normally talk about, I guess you could say that you are lowering the walls of the ego fortification -- I'm not too comfortable with that way of expressing, but just to connect more with how people normally talk about this, would you agree that that makes sense here -- or not?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, one of my guesses was that this is somehow related to self/other distinction

    I added a few words of caution.

    Pema Pera: I mean, normally we all live in little fortified shells, forts with slits for eyes, as some people have described it -- a bit like those Italian towers in some cities a few hundred years ago, with people shooting at each other
    Pema Pera: and really opening up seems very difficult and also seems scary and in fact may even be unsettling and destabilizing if it is done too quickly and rashly
    Pema Pera: at the same time, somebody opening up that way can be felt as being disarming
    Pema Pera: taking away the arms that the other would habitually use to attack by the very gesture of taking down the walls
    Pema Pera: I mean you taking down your walls may result in others becoming less defensive and less offensive even -- hence you can becoming disarming
    Fael Illyar: yes, I've been describing myself as a bit unstable the last few days.
    Fael Illyar: although, it's hard to say if I'm more unstable with the wall up or down.
    Fael Illyar: it's just unfamiliar unstableness.
    Pema Pera: my guess is that some instability results from a partial removal
    Pema Pera: in the sense that the sense of self that has built the walls is now removing the wals
    Pema Pera: or trying too
    Pema Pera: and doing a reasonable job
    Pema Pera: but if you can find a way to drop not only the wall-building self
    Pema Pera: but even the wall-removing self
    Pema Pera: perhaps stability will set in -- a stability that may be equally unfamiliar -- and delightful :)
    Pema Pera: so this would be in the spirit of YS-> BS
    Pema Pera: or even ES->BS
    Fael Illyar: Since I found this wall, this YSBS finally felt like it makes sense.
    Pema Pera: ah, wonderful!
    Pema Pera: can you say more?
    Fael Illyar: I feel like I understand what it is.
    Fael Illyar: however, I still fail to see any point :)
    Pema Pera: best to start with description of experience; phenomenology before explanatory attempts


    Claire dropped by.

    Fael Illyar: Hello Claire
    Pema Pera: Hi Claire!
    Pema Pera: Good seeing you again!
    Pema Pera: Have you met Fael yet?
    Claire Beltran: Sorry, no..
    Claire Beltran: Hell, Fael
    Claire Beltran: *hello XD
    Pema Pera: Fael, this is Claire, second visit here
    Fael Illyar: Ah, more new people :)
    Pema Pera: Claire, Fael is a regular, one of our guardians as we call our main members
    Fael Illyar: welcome :)
    Pema Pera: Fael was just talking about experimenting with lowering the walls we built around ourselves
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pema Pera: a topic which might well interest you :-)
    Claire Beltran: Ah.
    Claire Beltran: I would do that more often if I had more people to do it around ;_;
    Pema Pera: well, this may be a good place to practice :)
    Fael Illyar: Is it a bad idea to do around people in general?
    Pema Pera: safer than most!
    Pema Pera: it is a bad idea to do it too quickly and without being careful
    Pema Pera: it can be like walking across a busy road
    Pema Pera: cars may hit you
    Pema Pera: unless you are careful and know how to avoid those cars
    Fael Illyar: what would avoiding the cars be in this case?
    Pema Pera: just opening up to everything around you, before becoming a fully realized person, can be quite hurtful . . . .
    Claire Beltran: It is...
    Claire Beltran: Especially if you feel that you're trying to open up to the wrong people, but you desperately want them to be right.
    Fael Illyar: I'm aware of some hurt already.
    Fael Illyar: but when I've tried to put the wall back up, I tend to put it back down right away.
    Fael Illyar: I somehow prefer the hurt over what it costs to keep the wall up
    Claire Beltran: I don't know which is safer...
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: Seems like there is plenty of hurt to be had. I seem to be having some problems without talking to people at all ... perhaps more actually.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Claire Beltran: What sort of problems?
    Fael Illyar: emotions storming about in my mind.
    Fael Illyar: until I remember to accept them
    Fael Illyar: wb Pema


    I would drop out of SL several times that night.  Not just crashing, but my connection would freeze, and I would continue to see people typing for a few minutes.  Then finally realizing that no new information was coming in, I would log out and in again.  What was even worse whas that sometimes one or two minutes of information would drop out, and without knowing it, I would miss some lines in the local chat window.  I don't know whether this is a new `feature' in the latest viewer, but I would much rather crash and now that I would miss some lines than thinking I had the complete conversation to react too, and only later find out that something was left out (in fact, in most cases I would never know, and I would react to incomplete information, without others knowing that I did not have the complete information -- a really bad situation!  I wonder whether others have recently run into this problem, a lot worde than lag in my opinion!


    Tahuti dropped in, and there were five of us, another busy late night in the pavilion! 

    Pema Pera: my internet connection was frozen for quite a while . . . now back again!
    Fael Illyar: it happens :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Tahuti :)
    Claire Beltran: I feel rejected and scared...
    Tahuti Thor: hello
    Pema Pera: Hi Tahuti!
    Claire Beltran: Hello, Tahuti
    Tahuti Thor: hello everyone
    Tahuti Thor: hi pema
    Fael Illyar: Rejected and scared ... yes, I guess that would match...
    Tahuti Thor: hello fael :)
    Pema Pera: Tahuit have you met Clair and Fael yet?
    Pema Pera: *Claire
    Tahuti Thor: hello claire :)
    Claire Beltran: I feel like I have nothing to offer others but sadness.
    Pema Pera: *Tahuti
    Tahuti Thor: SL hasnt been working correctly recently
    Tahuti Thor: was not able to make it to few of meetings
    Pema Pera: Yes, Bertrum just IMed me: he lost all his assets and can't get in, it seems!
    Fael Illyar: When I'm alone and not talking to someone, rejected and scared would somewhat describe what I feel. Although, when I accept the feeling it doesn't control me.
    Fael Illyar: putting the wall back up would remove that one I think but I somehow prefer it being down.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Pema Pera: if you pay attention, you can sense to what extent you can take the wall down, I think, Fael
    Pema Pera: like everything in life, when you learn to bicycle, at first you do it carefully, not on a busy road
    Pema Pera: but after a while it can become second nature
    Fael Illyar: Well, yes, I guess that's why I'm not walking around the streets in the city yet :P
    Pema Pera: :)


    I summarized for Tahuti.

    Pema Pera: Tahuti, we are talking about opening up
    Pema Pera: lowering the walls around our ego
    Pema Pera: or sense of self
    Tahuti Thor: k
    Pema Pera: which is a great thing to do
    Faenik: could be
    Pema Pera: but if you do it too quickly and hastily can also hurt you -- and others
    Tahuti Thor: takes courage
    Tahuti Thor: ok
    Pema Pera: and after Fael talked about that, Claire joined us
    Pema Pera: and then I crashed
    Pema Pera: Claire, can you say again how you feel about opening up?
    Claire Beltran: How I feel?
    Fael Illyar got the feeling of looking at herself and shaking her head at herself in ... uh, japanese word comes to mind only 呆れてる
    Pema Pera: and btw, Fael, to finish what I tried to say before crashing: switching from You Seeing to Being Seeing is one rather save way of preparing for opening up more -- letting Being do the Seeing is a lot safer than letting others see you :-)
    Claire Beltran: I feel like all I have to offer other people is my sadness... and that isn't a very good thing to give.
    Fael Illyar: why not?
    Claire Beltran: Because it drags other people down.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Resting
    Resting Thor: hi
    Pema Pera: yes, Fael, akireru, like being amazed, shocked, a sense of awe also
    Pema Pera: Hi Resting Thor!
    Tahuti Thor: hi resting
    Pema Pera: good seeing you again!
    Resting Thor: hello all
    Resting Thor: up early
    Fael Illyar: Pema, yes, pretty much

    I asked Claire to say more, and while she was typing, tried to tie up the last thread.  But then Turd would walk in, and the three threads got a bit tangled.

    Pema Pera: Claire, can you say more about why you think that way, that you can only offer sadness?
    Pema Pera: and Fael, sorry to double thread here, letting Being look at you may be very different than you looking at you -- would there be akireru too?
    Fael Illyar: Although, now that I'm "opening up" it seems strange that I'm not having the time to pay that much attention to others.
    Pema Pera: probably just transitional
    Fael Illyar: there's also complete acceptance of what I'm doing in that akireru
    Pema Pera: getting used to a new way of dealing with self and others
    Faenik: ah :)
    Pema Pera: great!
    Pema Pera: Hi Turd!
    Pema Pera: come join us
    Turd Burnstein: hello!
    Fael Illyar: Hello Turd :)
    Tahuti Thor: hello turd
    Pema Pera: Have you been here before?
    Turd Burnstein: no, i've been playing second life for about an hour now, lol
    Claire Beltran: Hello <3
    Pema Pera: wow, you found us quickly!
    Turd Burnstein: haha yeah, i've found all kinds of crazy things
    Pema Pera: Hi Quilty!
    Fael Illyar: Hi Quilty :)
    Pema Pera: this may be the most crazy, Turd!
    Tahuti Thor: i think the difficulty might be two-fold
    Claire Beltran: I feel like I can only offer sadness because my life hasn't been a very happy one.
    Pema Pera: We are talking about the nature of reality
    Tahuti Thor: hi quilty
    Quilty Bookmite: hi All.
    Turd Burnstein: i don't know, the shemale place i just accidentally dropped into was pretty wacky
    Claire Beltran: Hello, Quilty
    Turd Burnstein: and now i have it above my name somehow :O
    Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/ is our blog
    Turd Burnstein: oh ok
    Pema Pera: we normally capture the conversations on that blog
    Turd Burnstein: oh nifty
    Fael Illyar: you need to select another group to activate if you want rid of it. You've joined the group from the place you found.


    Since that hint might not have been sufficient for someone new to SL, I expanded upon Fael's  advice, and told Turd the steps to go through to get rid of the label -- only to hear that removal wasn't desired after all . . . .

    Pema Pera: do you mind having your name appear there, together with the conversation?
    Turd Burnstein: not at all
    Quilty Bookmite: Sorry for materialising here. I just logged off last night in the pavilion.
    Pema Pera: Turd, go to the communicate window
    Turd Burnstein: do you folks have a landmark thingy?
    Pema Pera: by clicking on the blue button with that name in the left bottom
    Pema Pera: then click on the contacts label
    Pema Pera: below
    Pema Pera: then on the groups label on top
    Pema Pera: do you see all that?
    Pema Pera: then click on the top line "none"
    Pema Pera: to hightlight that one
    Turd Burnstein: ooooh ok, thank you! i think i'll leave this up for now, it's started some hilarious conversations so far
    Pema Pera: then click on "activate" on the right
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Faenik: why not?
    Turd Burnstein: thank you all, it's been nice meeting you
    Pema Pera: It's great seeing you again, Quilty!
    Pema Pera: I'm sorry I was here so briefly last time
    Quilty Bookmite: You too Pema. We don;t bump into each other often.
    Quilty Bookmite: NP.


    The topic turned briefly to our wiki.

    Quilty Bookmite: I have a question about the Wiki.
    Pema Pera: yes?
    Quilty Bookmite: I occasionally leave comments at the bottom of the chat logs. Is that common practice or do people tend not to notice them there?
    Pema Pera: I haven't noticed them yet :)
    Fael Illyar: the comments show up in recent changes so anyone following that will see them if any have been left
    Fael Illyar: although will only read them if they go take a look
    Fael Illyar: I've read them and even replied to a couple.
    Quilty Bookmite: Do other people leave comments? If not, I will stop doing it. :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: I will bow to peer pressure. :-)
    Pema Pera: I'd be happy too do so
    Pema Pera: but right now we are still in flux
    Quilty Bookmite: Of course.
    Pema Pera: not clear how we will do things in one or two weeks
    Pema Pera: while working on autorecording
    Pema Pera: how is that coming along, Fael?
    Quilty Bookmite: When is the autorecording going to start or don;t we know yet?
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)


    Tahuti returned to the thread started by Fael's pulling down her wall. 

    Tahuti Thor: difficulty i feel is two-fold when dealing with others : 1) acceptance of who u are (including flawss, shortcoming) and 2) knowing who you are in relation to others
    Faenik: why not?
    Fael Illyar: There was some progress but we ended the meeting with the decision that Storm and Fred will ask from SLED and ... some other forum for other people working on similar things.
    Tahuti Thor: the first aspect is needed to crush the ego
    Tahuti Thor: and second aspect is needed so others dont knock u off your turf (so to speak)....knowing who u are and relation to others keeps u centered
    Fael Illyar: I think number 1 is working out quite well. about number 2 I'm a bit unclear on what that means.
    Quilty Bookmite: Does the ego need to be "crushed"? Sounds a bit drastic.
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: like ice in water perhaps?
    Fael Illyar: crushed doesn't quite describe it I think ... although from a certain way of looking it's appropriate :)
    Quilty Bookmite: Melted? Dissolved? Sounds more gentle.
    Pema Pera: "acceptance of who u are" as you said, Tahuti, sums it up nicely
    Tahuti Thor: ok dissolved
    Pema Pera: or accepted
    Pema Pera: without any need to change
    Quilty Bookmite: Accepted sounds good.
    Tahuti Thor: i use crush because humanity really needs it righ now
    Pema Pera: yes, depending on context many expression can be appropriate
    Pema Pera: even though they may sound contradictory . . . .
    Claire Beltran: *nods*
    Quilty Bookmite: :-)
    Quilty Bookmite: Sorry folks I have to go. Another short visit.
    Pema Pera: Resting Thor, how do you think we can deal with our sense of ego or self?
    Pema Pera: bye Quilty!


    Quilty toke off. 

    Fael Illyar: I had a thought about rejecting things yesterday. When you reject something, you're trying to make it so it never existed. That's not possible. But you can accept it was and it'll disappear.
    Quilty Bookmite: Bye all.
    Tahuti Thor: so accept your sadness....and once u accept it it changes into warmth feeling
    Tahuti Thor: ok bye quilty
    Resting Thor: i do a lot of service work for my lamas :)
    Resting Thor: and meditate and practice mindfulness during the day
    Claire Beltran: But accepthing sadness can be hard, too...
    Claire Beltran: Especially if you become addicted to it.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Tahuti Thor: rejecting things unconsciously (or reacting to things unmindfully) keeps it in your system
    Tahuti Thor: and it becomes a habit....so your mind repeats it over n over....and never solves the problem
    Claire Beltran: So how do I break free of that?
    Resting Thor: i cultivate a vision of myself helping others and this brings me great joy and i think helps me break away from conventional view of self
    Tahuti Thor: mindfulness
    Fael Illyar: For me, it has usually helped that I first become aware of doing it.
    Fael Illyar: so I can "see" myself doing it
    Fael Illyar: even if the doing is unconscious
    Fael Illyar: it stops being unconscious when you can "see" it
    Tahuti Thor: mindfulness + face the issue head on
    Fael Illyar: running away tends to only force you to return to the issue later and it's usually worse by then.
    Resting Thor: did pema crash?


    Indeed, once again self-induced after having stared at the screen, wondering why everyone seemed so speechless, until I realized that my connection had lost its byte . . . . 

    Faenik: ah :)
    Fael Illyar: probably
    Fael Illyar: I guess I should post the log this time.
    Faenik: indeed?
    Fael Illyar: in a way, running away is something I fear more than any issues I might have.
    Fael Illyar: wb Pema
    Pema Pera: back again -- sorry, I was frozen out again for a long time
    Pema Pera: annoying since I don't know what I missed -- and it takes a while to realize, unlike just crashing
    Fael Illyar: I'll post the log :)
    Fael Illyar: You can do the commenting though ;)
    Pema Pera: ah, that's a good idea, Fael!
    Pema Pera: thanks
    Resting Thor: i have to leave soon.. thanks for the discussion :)
    Fael Illyar: running away is what creates the issues I think.
    Resting Thor: the sun will be dawning soon here :)
    Tahuti Thor: 1)acceptance + 2) knowin oneself and relation to others + 3) mindfulness = coping and dealing w/ others and ourselves thru others' eyes..............??
    Pema Pera: Well, it is 2:20 am here, I think I'll try to get some sleep . . . .
    Pema Pera: good seeing you again, Resting Thor!
    Claire Beltran: And it's 5:20am here -_-;
    Claire Beltran: I should really get to bed.
    Pema Pera: and Claire and Tahuti and Fael
    Resting Thor: 4:20 here
    Pema Pera: :)
    Claire Beltran: It was great talking, though <3
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Fael Illyar: Good night Pema :)
    Tahuti Thor: ok Pema
    Pema Pera: see you all soon again!


    I leave, and Fael kept taking the log. 

    Tahuti Thor: good night
    Tahuti Thor: or morning rather
    Tahuti Thor: good night/morning everyone
    Fael Illyar: should I say good night to you too Claire?
    Claire Beltran: Good night, all!
    Fael Illyar: Ah, ok, Good night :)
    Tahuti Thor: bye :)
    Fael Illyar: Were you left with anything you want to discuss, Tahuti?
    Faenik: why not?
    Tahuti Thor: do u agree with the formula?
    Fael Illyar: from first look it looks like it's good but I can't really say without more reflection :)
    Tahuti Thor: 1)acceptance + 2) knowin oneself and relation to others + 3) mindfulness = coping and dealing w/ others and ourselves thru others' eyes..............??
    Tahuti Thor: k
    Tahuti Thor: acceptance dissolves ego; knowin oneself and relation centers oneself..
    Tahuti Thor: u kno how if u dont know yourself, you will stumble or fall for anything
    Fael Illyar: it's also important to be sensitive to changes in the relation
    Tahuti Thor: right
    Tahuti Thor: and that comes by mindfulness
    Tahuti Thor: thru awareness
    Fael Illyar: and not allow yourself to become attached to the relations


    Mindfullness -- a big topic.

    Tahuti Thor: the 3rd aspect - mindfuless - we have to be expanded
    Fael Illyar: yes, that's what I've been talking about I guess :)
    Tahuti Thor: yeah :)
    Fael Illyar is still a bit hazy about what is called mindfulness.
    Tahuti Thor: u could maybe write a full paper on 3rd aspect alone ......haha
    Fael Illyar: So, I avoid saying the word.
    Fael Illyar: I tend to avoid using words that either I don't understand or I'm uncertain the ones I'm talking to understand.
    Tahuti Thor: k
    Tahuti Thor: some words only make sense in meditation
    Fael Illyar: I was wondering, you seem to be rather familiar with the subject. Is it something to do with what you do in RL?
    Tahuti Thor: other words are needed when u out and about in human world
    Faenik: indeed?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, the dualism between dualism and non-dualism is interesting :)
    Tahuti Thor: yes, i self - relect and contemplate all the time....and try to keep myself fully alert and conscious
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: I'm groping my way there I guess.
    Tahuti Thor: u meditate?
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Fael Illyar: PaBs and occasionally Zen meditation.
    Tahuti Thor: ok
    Fael Illyar: it seems like PaBs are great for keeping me in ... shape?
    Fael Illyar: progress seems to happen during Zen meditation
    Fael Illyar: well, if you can call it progress :)
    Fael Illyar: for this week, I've been feeling like I'm sort of meditating the whole day.
    Fael Illyar: Although, when I meditated this morning, I did get somewhat "deeper"
    Tahuti Thor: PaB keeps u contemplative/self-relecting.....which is a good thing but i dont recommend overdoing it
    Tahuti Thor: samatha meditation in the morning right after u wake up is deeper
    Fael Illyar: If overdoing would mean forcing it ... I don't think I'm doing that.
    Tahuti Thor: did u just wake up when u did it this morning?
    Fael Illyar: I ate breakfast and checked my email before I did it :)
    Fael Illyar: oh and washed some dishes.
    Tahuti Thor: ok
    Fael Illyar: I feel like it would take forcing to go any slower than I'm going


    Tahuti brought up a very important kind of exploration: as soon as you notice that you have woken up, you have a golden opportunity to explore the tidals waters between sleeping and waking, a unique terrain in wich awareness is more naked. 

    Tahuti Thor: i kno lot of monks do it right after waking up - its common practice
    Faenik: ah :)
    Tahuti Thor: and also heard from other spiritual men as well
    Tahuti Thor: so ive tried it and i do notice a difference
    Fael Illyar: Not quite right after waking up but not much after
    Fael Illyar: it did wake me up I think.
    Tahuti Thor: as the day moves foward lot of junk is collected in the mind
    Tahuti Thor: k :)
    Fael Illyar: ah, it's the junk that feels heavy when it's getting late.
    Tahuti Thor: well......some things are physical......and some things are psychological
    Fael Illyar: sort of new feeling, feeling clear minded, sort of not tired but still having tiredness under it somehow.
    Tahuti Thor: and i was taking in reference to a junky psychological mind
    Tahuti Thor: a city mind
    Fael Illyar: something where I know that I can do more but that it's taxing
    Tahuti Thor: wandering mind
    Tahuti Thor: yes
    Fael Illyar: I had a way overlong PaB meeting two days ago.
    Fael Illyar: 8 hours straight talking, thinking
    Tahuti Thor: wow
    Fael Illyar is not doing that again. :)


    The talk turns to the way SL works -- or doesn't quite work. 

    Tahuti Thor: how did u manage to get in
    Tahuti Thor: on this side SL wasnt working
    Tahuti Thor: u could log on but the avatar wouldnt move anywhere
    Fael Illyar: SL often breaks so that new people can't login but those who were logged in stay
    Tahuti Thor: oh ok
    Fael Illyar: interesting, really :)
    Fael Illyar: you don't even realize something is wrong when you just sit in one place chatting for several hours :)
    Fael Illyar: the chat portion tends to be the part that works best, even if nothing else does
    Tahuti Thor: :)
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: and most of the rest is such that it only needs to work to make it visible/usable.
    Fael Illyar: so it doesn't stop working when the systems that are needed to activate it stop
    Fael Illyar: except for new people :)
    Tahuti Thor: how old is SL?
    Fael Illyar: I find listening to music distracts me enough that the problems vanish.
    Fael Illyar: a few years ... maybe 6?
    Tahuti Thor: ok
    Fael Illyar: well, close to that anyhow :)
    Fael Illyar: could be 7 too


    Officially five years -- there had been fifth birthday celebrations recently -- but the early beginnings indeed happened a couple years earlier.

    Fael Illyar: wouldn't surprise me if it's as common as web browsers in another 7
    Fael Illyar: or something comparable
    Tahuti Thor: has the 9 seconds meditation every 15 min worked for you?
    Fael Illyar: It got me started :)
    Tahuti Thor: thats what they told people to do in PaB
    Fael Illyar: and interested in Zen meditation too
    Fael Illyar: because I met people doing Zen here
    Tahuti Thor: i think one has to make sure they are doin meditation correctly


    If Play as Being would be a meditation course, then I would whole-heartedly agree with Tahuti.  However, PaB is far more open-ended and tentative, an exploration of reality that *may* be comparable for meditation for some people, but also *could* be something quite different for others, more like a scientific exploration, or like an artistic quest for inspiration, or . . . ?  An interesting and important topic to come back to! 

    Tahuti Thor: before they go on to do this 9 second thing
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I didn't do things correctly at first. But it still got me somewhere.
    Tahuti Thor: :)
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: I'm the type of person that I just have to grope through things myself :)
    Tahuti Thor: have to get your feet wet :)
    Fael Illyar: the way I do PaBs and meditation is something I mostly figured out myself. Although, Zen is close to what my meditation feels like.
    Fael Illyar: Well, the instruction I had at the start was from Zen people so no surprise I suppose :)
    Tahuti Thor: haha
    Tahuti Thor: how they said to meditate
    Fael Illyar: I don't remember anymore
    Fael Illyar: it's not important :)
    Fael Illyar: I need to understand things myself, you can teach meditation to someone else.
    Fael Illyar: can't
    Fael Illyar: you can only guide
    Faenik: why not?
    Tahuti Thor: words only function is to guide
    Fael Illyar: Yes... well, I should stop here. 2 hours is starting to be a bit much :)
    Tahuti Thor: yes
    Tahuti Thor: wow time did fly by quickly
    Tahuti Thor: ok so lets stop here
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you some other meeting :)
    Tahuti Thor: good night/morning
    Tahuti Thor: see u again
    Fael Illyar: morning here :)
    Tahuti Thor: see u again faenik
    Fael Illyar: See you again, Tahuti :)
    Faenik: Bye Tahuti
    Tahuti Thor: bye : )

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