2008.08.07 19:00 - Navigating through Meteor Showers

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    Pia was the official guardian tonight, but she asked Friedrich to post the logs and comment since he/I was there the whole time.

    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: hi adelene
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo Fred
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: avastu, i don't recall if we have met before
    Avastu Maruti: nice to meet you, my friend
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: pleasure

    Peeking at Avastu's profile I asked him about a group he is a member in.

    Friedrich Oschenhorn: Avastu: what is the Nonduality & Advaita Group about?
    Avastu Maruti: We have a weekly talk followed by questions and answers
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo Pia
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: any particular topic or theme?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: hi Pia?
    Avastu Maruti: the truth of what you are
    Pia Iger: Hi, all, I am a bit late
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: so, nonduality would be both the One and hte Many?
    Avastu Maruti: Nonduality can be called Oneness
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: what about plurality ;-)
    Avastu Maruti: recognizing oneness
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: plurality is non-dual. sory if I am being flippant or silly
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: literal?
    Avastu Maruti: plurality assumes reality in the many
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: well, it just reminded me of an ancient riddle
    The riddle of The One and The Many appears in Plato's Parmenedes though it has many modern incarnations. It has also been connected to the ancient riddle of squaring the circle.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: hi neela!
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello everyone
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: the riddle of the reconcilation of the one and the many
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: or, how the many might decant from the one
    Avastu Maruti: the many IS Oneness
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: (and i never heard that term before)
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i'm with you on that one. there is an identity relation between the One and the Many
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: but, does that problematize or solve the riddle?
    Avastu Maruti: relationship assumes two
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: hmm.. i would think that the relationship is the thrid, after the first distcinction into two
    Avastu Maruti: who remains to point out the distinction?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: which instantly creats relations between the rest, leading to infinity.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: it springs into existence upon the first distinction?
    Avastu Maruti: is that a belief or direct experience?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: good question.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: its a hypothesis, that I have tried to experinece, and may have noticed
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i am fairly confident in it, and maybe even want for it to be true
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Avastu Maruti: simply look to direct experience - reality cannot exist as a belief
    Avastu Maruti: it must be present now if it is truly reality
    Avastu Maruti: you know, that you know
    Avastu Maruti: seeing is happening
    Avastu Maruti: and IN that seeing, all comes and goes
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: maybe.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: depends whats prior. belief or reality
    I actually realized Avastu and I might be dominating the conversation before Adelene said she was going to leave, but my comment lagged and appeared after hers.
    Adelene Dawner should have thought before she came - she has other things she should be doing and isn't really able to focus here right now, and trying to do so is being counterproductive. Bye, all. See you tomorrow.
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: sorry, are we losing everyone? we started this thread before pia and neela arrived
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Adelene
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: g'night
    Pia Iger: bye.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: how was everybody's day?
    Pia Iger: can't complain:)
    Neela Blaisdale: Busy but good
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: its been a busy, and fragmented week for lots of people i know, including myself
    Neela Blaisdale: I just noticed the WHo Knows poster, is that new?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: and, by coincidence, there is a meteor shower underway, peaking monday night
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes after 2am EST
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: yeha, i hadn't noticed it before either. i was trying to read it, but can't seeem to get close enough from here
    Neela Blaisdale: I've already alerted my family that we're staying up
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: got a good vantage point?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: there are a few things that NYC is a terrible place for.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: night-time viewing is one of those things
    Neela Blaisdale: Not sure as we're going away to somewhere I've never been but there's a beach nearby
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: nice
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i gotta find a roof
    Neela Blaisdale: Yes NY woud be hard
    Neela Blaisdale: I wonder if the Museum of Natural History is doing anything special?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: good question. maybe a real time simulation of the shower inside the planetarium ;-)
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: reminds of a time recnetly i was on a plane, and they insisted we close the shades, but broadcast the view from the underside on the closed circuit tv system
    Neela Blaisdale: Could be. I think one reason I get so excited about these things is that they are a reminder that we are part of somethng greater than ourselves
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: for sure. they help me imagine/remember that the astonomical bodies are hurtling through space at breakneck speeds (ourselves included)
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: spaceship earth, as Bucky Fuller called us
    Neela Blaisdale: Standing still and hurtling at the same time
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: ;-)
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: its all relative....
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: though, avastu might take issue with motion, if all that exists is the now ;-)
    Neela Blaisdale: What do you think Avastu?
    Avastu Maruti: Think about what?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: about change. if all that exists is the present, what are you changing in relatoin too
    Avastu Maruti: who changes?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: well, motion is a change in positoin
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: for us to be hurtling through space, we needed to be somewhere before, and wil be somewhere else later
    Avastu Maruti: are we hurtling through space, or does space happen in Consciousness?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: (sorry. to have been somewhere before)
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: perhaps they mirror each other
    Avastu Maruti: there is no perhaps, my friend
    Avastu Maruti: look for yourself
    Stevenaia arrives
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: hi steve!
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello Steven
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i can entertain the notion that all that exists is the present, which btw, means that teh past is as maleable as the future...
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: but not sure how I can get beyond or do w/out time.
    Avastu Maruti: the mind will never find the answer
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: because it is situated in time? like a fish in water?
    Avastu Maruti: no amount of mental analysis can find that which is beyond mind
    Avastu Maruti: what is situated in time?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: mind
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: well, consciousness
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: not sure about mind
    Avastu Maruti: time appears as an illusion
    Avastu Maruti: if you have a thought about the past or future, when does that thought happen?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: steve - you tp'd an alternate univese tonight
    Avastu Maruti: do you ever move out of now?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: approximately now
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i think I am rarely precisely in the now
    Avastu Maruti: of course
    stevenaia Michinaga: I usually ponder next more than now
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: that is what this practice helps me come closer to
    Avastu Maruti: that is why you miss it
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: like that scene in spaceballs ;-)
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: when's that? now? no, you just missed it
    Avastu Maruti: missed what, my friend?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: sorry, that was a quote from that mel brooks movie
    stevenaia Michinaga: but now is slowly becoming more.... part of me
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094012/
    Avastu Maruti: what you are is the "light" which illuminates the world, yet if a light is always on, we miss it
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i like to try to emulate light
    Neela Blaisdale: Hard work to stay in the now
    Avastu Maruti: now is not difficult, it is unavoidable
    Avastu Maruti: yet even "now
    Avastu Maruti: "now" is only a pointer
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: dunno avastu. i think steve was onto something in terms of fixating on the future or the past
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: even if you are "really" in the now, whatever that means
    Avastu Maruti: simply see that the mind moves in thought from past to future constantly
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: ah. so maybe i am now talking about attention
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: differnet from mind
    Avastu Maruti: yet those thoughts only ever happen in this present moment
    stevenaia Michinaga: not the far future, but the immediate choices that are available to us when we talke the next baby step
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: where the mind is focused, or looking
    Avastu Maruti: see that time is only a way of thinking
    Avastu Maruti: a concept
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: well, i think that even some modern phycisists would agree w/ you there - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_End_of_Time
    Avastu Maruti: this is not a belief I'm asking you to accept - discard all that I say and investigate for yourself
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: some ancient systems I have studied have postulated that teh universe is composed of quality, quantity, and communiction
    For example, Sepher Yitzirah a central kabbalistic text, opens with this hypothesis/assertion.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: sure, but investigations are guided by questoins
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: its iterative
    Avastu Maruti: of course - and the core question is "what am I?"
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: the summation of your choices is one possible answer i have entertained
    Avastu Maruti: simply look to THAT which is looking
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: but those are the parts, which omit the whole
    Avastu Maruti: In WHAT is this human experience happening?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: I
    Avastu Maruti: and what IS that "I"?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: a construct for containing experience? that's a recursive definition, but that bootstrapping is where the magic may happen
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i dunno - i think we are trying to investigate preciesly these questions, through the direct experience of the practice we are engaged in
    Avastu Maruti: of course
    Avastu Maruti: if you are interested in hypothesis - look into the nature of Consciousness
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: heh. and by that practice I could mean 'life' or even the PaB 9 second pause routine
    Avastu Maruti: Life is intelligence - you ARE that
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: if the inner and the outer are mirrors, might we find the answer by looking deeply in either directoin?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: or in both simultaineously?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: sorry. not 'the' answer. questoins and answers
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: set,s ranges, and spaces of answers
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: thanks for the compliment. sometimes I feel pretty dumb ;-)
    Pia Iger: Avastu, what will it be after life then?
    Avastu Maruti: what will what be, my friend?
    Pia Iger: the intelligence, you said we are.
    Avastu Maruti: Life IS - the appearance of "things", forms and space, are only illusions of separateness
    Avastu Maruti: that intelligence that forms the tree and that human body are the same "substance"
    Avastu Maruti: Life is not "my life"
    Avastu Maruti: You are Life, looking at itself
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: but should we be doing more than just looking...
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: which brings us full circle back to change...
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: ;-)
    Avastu Maruti: there is no "should", my friend - all happens according to it's nature
    Avastu Maruti: the illusion is that "you" are the doer, the "thinker"
    and now we seem to be getting to the crux of the difference in perspectives
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: now, how do you know that again? cause, from my experience, I know otherwise
    Avastu Maruti: with WHAT do you know?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i mean, everything happens according to its nature is a rather passive formulation
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: that i can choose. and act, according to my will
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: at least, that is my nature
    Avastu Maruti: of course - that's why it's an illusion
    Avastu Maruti: the "you" that believes you have free will is part of this illusion
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: well, its all an illusion
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: yeah yeah. what if I want to believe in that illusion. can it become real?
    Avastu Maruti: belief cannot create reality
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: you sure about that?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: how do you know?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: just because it never has for you?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: in your experinece?
    Avastu Maruti: can your belief in Santa Claus create him?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: maybe if enough of us did...
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i don't know
    Not thinking quickly enough on my avatar's feet, I neglected to bring up the many mundane examples of belief changing reality - things like marriage, citizenship, money.  And then, of course, there are things like feelings (e.g. pain), whose existence precisely coincides with the belief in its existence.
    Avastu Maruti: who is "us"?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: uh.... do you believe in other people's minds?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: or are they illusions in your reality also?
    Avastu Maruti: it is not "my" reality - "me" and "mine" are only concepts
    Avastu Maruti: the "I" you speak of is only a concept
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: a prettty important one, for me! ;-)
    Avastu Maruti: yes - for the "me"
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: and, 'I' respect the importance of your 'I'
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: its reality, even
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: anyone else want to help me out here ;-)
    Avastu Maruti: belief is never reality - drop all beliefs for one moment and rest in pure reality
    Avastu Maruti: you are already what you seek
    Avastu Maruti: Being is only hidden because you are looking for it
    Avastu Maruti: it is THAT which illuminates the search itself
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: I don't feel that Being is hidden. In fact, I think it communicates with me quite clearly sometimes
    Avastu Maruti: So Being would have to be separate with "you" to communicate with you
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: nope. just that's how my lower self needs to regard it to comprehend it.
    Avastu Maruti: these concepts of "lower self" and others are simply assumptions - look for yourself
    I had never met Avastu before, so I wanted to make sure we could post this log
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: Avastu, time out.
    Avastu Maruti: can you find duality except in mind
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: Is this your first time to PaB?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: I am asking because we like to record our sessions and post them onloine
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: and i want to find out if you are ok w/ that?
    Avastu Maruti: would you like me to wear my guardian tag?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: not at all!
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: sorry, we have never met.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i only attend sporadically
    Avastu Maruti: yes - if you ask a question, then the response comes
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: but then, if all that exists is hte now, should I ask every time ;-)
    Avastu Maruti: if you wish no response,don't ask questions
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: you answered a questoin with a questoin.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: a yes would have sufficed.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: err, no, I suppose
    Avastu Maruti: questions come, answers come - what I am is not involved
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: actually, its the other attendees who haven't been too involved...
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i think we got caught up in our own reality
    stevenaia Michinaga: I've been listening intently
    Avastu Maruti: they are free to speak - I will now stop
    stevenaia Michinaga: and smiling quite a bit
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: well, i need to go soon... i just wanted to make sure we weren't excluding or alienating htem
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: what are you smiling about, steve?
    stevenaia Michinaga: the exchange was wonderful
    Friedrich Ochsenhorn blushes
    stevenaia Michinaga: I am suprised you have never met Avastu, Friedrich
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i wasn't sure if i had
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: k... so, avastu, you think that the concept of others is just an assumption - is it one you find useful?
    Neela Blaisdale: Well everyone, I must go.Have a good night and be well
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: Good night, neela!
    stevenaia Michinaga: night neela
    Avastu Maruti: the answer will most likely be another question to you, my friend
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: imagine all the people, living in harmony...
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: let it be
    Avastu Maruti: yes
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: it will be, eventually. but perhaps, some of us would like to experience that in our lifetime
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: desire and impatience. such wonderful illusions
    stevenaia Michinaga: over time those two particular illusion have slowly disipated from me, and I don;t feel any loss
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i like desire.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: i wnat to live in a world with desire
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: as well as one with peace, beauty, love, and truth
    stevenaia Michinaga: well slowly, not entirely
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: why should i drop them (at least, permantly)?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: temporarily, perhaps, to appreciate them more
    stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes droping one allow another to take its place, nothing needs to belost
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: lucky for us, its all good ;-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I certainly hope so
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: of course. how else could it be?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: Pia? any reactoins or remarks?
    stevenaia Michinaga: well I must go, thank you for the evening
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: yes, a nice note to depart.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: good nigth, steve
    Pia Iger: I am listening.
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    we slip into the meta, and then depart
    stevenaia Michinaga: looking forward to seeing you all soon, tomarrow is my first guardianship
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: fare thee all well.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: cool - what time?
    stevenaia Michinaga: 7 slt
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: when do we move to the new pavillion?
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: does anyone know?
    Pia Iger: wonderful, Steve!
    stevenaia Michinaga: join me for suipport Pia?
    stevenaia Michinaga: ..smile
    Pia Iger: OK!
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: not sure I can make it - i have a wedding this weekend, and don't know if i will be near a connection
    Pia Iger: We won't move until Tech team do the autorecord trial at new place.
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: really? the place is ready, and is really nice.
    stevenaia Michinaga: can;t wait
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: auto-recording is definitely not ready /now/
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: which is where I am trying to concentrate ;-)
    Friedrich Oschenhorn: k. i've gotta go. pleaure everyone. g'night friends.
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    Pia Iger: Good nite.
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