2008.08.08 01:00 - Tinkering with the walls

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Wol Euler; the comments are hers.

    I was quite nervous about being Guardian for the first time, so arrived a few minutes early (as I thought), only to find Adelene already there and Fael hot on my heels.

    Wol Euler: good morning adelene!
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol, Adele :)
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo Fael
    Wol Euler: morning Fael
    Fael Illyar: you two are early today :)
    Wol Euler chuckles at herself. I was just about to get up and close some windows in this room, so as to hear you better.
    Wol Euler: well, I am on Guardian duty today for the first time, I thought I should be punctual.
    Adelene Dawner should be asleep but has some things she needed to get done tonight and being awake now seemed like an okay way of doing them, so, here she is.
    Adelene Dawner: Probably won't stay the whole hour, though.
    Wol Euler: Are you still attending every session, Adelene?
    Fael Illyar: No She isn't :)
    Adelene Dawner: Nope - my work schedule only comfortably allows one per day.
    Wol Euler: ah, but you did seven in a row IIRC recently
    Adelene Dawner: Yep, that was on my weekend. ^.^
    Wol Euler: aaaah
    Wol Euler: I see
    Wol Euler: funny how there are weekends even in SL
    Fael Illyar: timewise, I also did about as much :P
    Wol Euler: the marathon? I was most impressed
    Fael Illyar isn't going to repeat the "marathon".
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Wol Euler: heheh


     Bertrum and Rajah join us.


    Wol Euler: hello Bertrum
    Fael Illyar: Hi Bert
    Adelene Dawner: I might repeat it, if I have someone interesting to talk to. That was fun. ^.^
    Fael Illyar: Hi Rajah
    Wol Euler: hello Rajah
    Bertrum Quan: Hi Wol, Fael, Adelene...
    Rajah Yalin: hi Fael, hi Wol
    Rajah Yalin: hi Adelen
    Rajah Yalin: maybe the lag isnt totally over Bert haha
    Faenik loves wells!
    Adelene Dawner: 'lo
    Adelene Dawner may be a bit slow - it's 4am for her, and she's multitasking.
    Wol Euler: no worries.
    Rajah Yalin: i might be slow too i have bad lag
    Fael Illyar might be slow too, eating breakfast.
    Wol Euler will probably be slow too, then, out of solidarity.
    Fael Illyar: haha :)
    Wol Euler: Faster isn't always beter.
    Fael Illyar: not always, no :)
    Faenik: ah :)


     We sit in silence for a few minutes, being slow together, then Fael speaks.


    Fael Illyar is wondering if she should bring up her 'ego wall' subject again but hesitating since it's been dominating the topics for a while.
    Wol Euler: please do, I was in on the starrt of your conversatoin with Pma and it was fascinating
    Bertrum Quan: Yes. Pleasae do.
    Fael Illyar: you'll find yesterday's 1AM and 7AM logs interesting probably.
    Rajah Yalin: I don't see anyone talking about anything else fael, you should :)
    Bertrum Quan: Please
    Wol Euler makes a note
    Fael Illyar: This morning it's feeling like it's stabilized somehow. I'm no longer sure about how to have it up or down. But it doesn't feel like it's down but yet, not up either.
    Wol Euler: becoming "phantom" perhaps?
    Fael Illyar: strange but not unpleasant.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema
    Wol Euler: permeable?
    Fael Illyar: perhaps it's become transparent like Pema suggested I try to make it in his email I just read.
    Wol Euler: I can't remember whether this was mentioned. Do you Visualize it, or just feel the wall's presence?
    Wol Euler: Beccoming transparent would be very significant, I think, if you do visualize it.


     Pema arrives, to my surprise: he had asked me to take this session so that he could get some sleep!


    Rajah Yalin: wb Pema
    Wol Euler: hello Pema!
    Fael Illyar: I had a visual but it was getting weaker and seems to have vanished
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: hi there!
    Bertrum Quan: Hi Pema
    Wol Euler: just couldn't stay away, eh? :-)
    Pema Pera: hahaha, guess what
    Pema Pera: why do you think I am still awake?
    Pema Pera: can anybody guess?
    Rajah Yalin: a new girlfriend?
    Wol Euler: telescopery?
    Pema Pera: hahahaha,
    Pema Pera: what interesting thoughts
    Wol Euler: you've thought of a new practice.
    Pema Pera: well, it has to do with PaB blog . . . . .
    Pema Pera: catching up this time not in writing so much . . . . .
    Pema Pera: as in . . . . .
    Pema Pera: reading that six-hour chat log ! ! ! ! !
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Wol Euler: lol
    Fael Illyar falls down laughing.
    Pema Pera: while less interesting than the idea of a new girlfriend
    Pema Pera: interesting enough to keep me up
    Rajah Yalin: :p
    Pema Pera: so here I am
    Pema Pera: wide awake
    Fael Illyar hopes your wife has a sense of humour that can get that :)
    Wol Euler: :-)
    Pema Pera: even though at 8 am SLT I have to announce the speaker in my astro group
    Pema Pera: hehe, Fael
    Pema Pera: amazed at Rajah's ability to have two implications in a three-word sentence "a new girlfriend"
    Rajah Yalin: lol
    Pema Pera: but don't let me interrupt your threads of conversations . . . .
    Fael Illyar: I was bringing up that my 'ego wall' thing seems to have stabilized. It doesn't seem to be up but not down either.
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Fael Illyar: and I'm not uncertain how to put it up or down.
    Fael Illyar: now
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: (not not)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Wol Euler: oh, that is interesting.
    Pema Pera: did you read my email, btw, Fael, a few hours ago?
    Fael Illyar: yes I did
    Pema Pera: (written with sleepy eyes, just before thinking "let me finish reading that chat log")
    Fael Illyar: It's likely what is happening is kind of what you suggested.
    Pema Pera: sounds like it yes -- although each suggestion can have a wide spectrum of effects to trigger . . . .
    Fael Illyar: as I found myself unwilling with having the wall up or down, so I might be unconsciously creating a third option.
    Pema Pera: did you quote the paragraph that I wrote about this?
    Fael Illyar: no, I did not
    Pema Pera: Let me suggest an exercise for you: how about playing with some degrees of freedom here. For example, instead of just taking the wall down, how about letting the wall be there, but completely transparent, like a wall of light, permeable yet there, no longer a barrier or separation yet there with information, pretty in its own way, not as something to let go of but more like an ornament, like the wings you so carefully crafted for Fael? Perhaps this could be one way in which to read Wol's notion that there are good attachements (like transparent wings and walls :).
    Adelene Dawner: Sounds to me like it's gotten fluid... it's not some static thing, now, but reacts to situations. That's a good thing, if so.
    Fael Illyar: fluid sounds .... uh, trying to determine if that's correct makes my head spin for some reason.
    Faenik: could be
    Adelene Dawner: maybe not the best word... 's still very early, now. But... 'alive', perhaps? Something that implies reaction.
    Pema Pera playing with images: solid, fluid, gaseous, ethereal . . . . .
    Fael Illyar: well, me not being able move it up/down at will could indicate it's getting autonomous of sort.
    Fael Illyar: perhaps it being up/down is now meaningless
    Wol Euler: I was thinking about filters, perhaps it is changing from a thing to a function?
    Fael Illyar: earlier I compared it to a filter
    Pema Pera: how about playing/tinkering/probing with a different degree of freedom -- like making its transparency degree larger or smaller (like fine tuning your wings)?
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Adelene Dawner: I've experienced things like that, Fael. And... well, probably not meaningless per se, but not something that will have much relevance to you-consciously, any more than any other automatic brain-process does.
    Fael Illyar: Yes, possible I suppose.
    Pema Pera: interesting, Wol
    Fael Illyar is wondering is she's missing a line from Wol.
    Pema Pera thinking about object-oriented and functional programming . . . .
    Adelene Dawner wonders if Pema is wise to suggest that kind of tinkering - perhaps he knows more about Fael's RL situation than she does - but that kind of thing is rarely safe to play with like that.
    Pema Pera: [1:29] Wol Euler: I was thinking about filters, perhaps it is changing from a thing to a function?
    Pema Pera: you bring up an interesting point, Adelene
    Pema Pera: of safety
    Pema Pera: Fred touched upon that
    Pema Pera: in the same session I believe where Wol talked about unbehaglich
    Fael Illyar: Most of things I'm doing are not conscious.
    Fael Illyar: ... or more like it feels off to say "I" am doing them.
    Faenik: could be
    Adelene Dawner: Yup, Fael. Sounds very familiar, to me.
    Pema Pera: The best answer I can give is that I use my intuition -- or better even, step aside to let whatever it is use me -- as best as I can, Adelene
    Pema Pera: and that of course is not failsafe
    Pema Pera: we all make errors
    Pema Pera: and then we learn from them
    Adelene Dawner: Yup.
    Pema Pera: the importance here is 1) we have a strong community and 2) within five hours we can talk with others about whatever things may bother us about exercises
    Pema Pera: (or zero hours!)
    Pema Pera: and also anyone can always email me or Stim or the playasbeing group


     Errors and bicycles.


    Pema Pera: I like the image of bicycling
    Pema Pera: each moment you fall out of balance
    Pema Pera: and in a fraction of a second your body steers the other direction
    Pema Pera: to correct
    Pema Pera: and the whole movement of bicycling is a string of errors and corrections
    Fael Illyar: something that is rather disturbing is the feeling of my mind spinning when I tried to think about if fluid described the wall now.
    Pema Pera: so in that sense I don't think we have to be afraid of errors -- they are our fuel
    Pema Pera: Fael's fuel too :)
    Fael Illyar: felt like almost my whole awareness going spinning
    Adelene Dawner: My perspective is... Fael's brain seems to work much the same way mine does. Almost everything she's described sounds familiar to me... the forms, not the details, but the similarities are striking. So I figure that my experiences will probably apply, too, and my experience is that that kind of tinkering is less than wise, because the results can be dramatic.
    Adelene Dawner: Spinning how, Fael?
    Pema Pera: what would you recommend then, Adelene, stopping the investigation, or changing it in some way?
    Fael Illyar: or more like twisting. I'm still feeling some residue of it
    Fael Illyar: like a vortex
    Adelene Dawner: Just let it be - watch, listen, think, but don't change without having some insight into the thing *first*.
    Pema Pera: that is good advice, yes, for any experimental investigation
    Pema Pera: from lab experiments to computer programming
    Pema Pera: to anything in daily life
    Fael Illyar: that ... might be difficult considering it's not "I" who's doing things.
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Bertrum Quan: Good night everyone. Gotta go,
    Adelene Dawner: Don't worry about not-'I', Fael. There's nothing you can do about it anyway, and every time I've dealt with not-'I' doing stuff inside my head, it's turned out fine. It's when 'I' go trying to fiddle, like Pema suggested you do, that things tend to go sideways.
    Wol Euler: good night bert
    Adelene Dawner: (Well, not nothing. But nothing much.)
    Fael Illyar: well, the "I" seems to be mostly observing.
    Adelene Dawner: Good.
    Fael Illyar: although, the first time Pema described YSBS, I went a bit too far with the YS part and was rather disturbed for a couple of days.
    Pema Pera: But Adelene, Fael talked about "spinning" after something you said, about fluid, not after any particular tinkering or playing
    Pema Pera: in general, I think it is very important to back off a bit, when we feel disturbed, for whatever reason: take a deep breath, go for a walk, or just let things be for a while
    Wol Euler nods
    Pema Pera: Fael, do you feel that that generally helped to stabilize you?
    Adelene Dawner: That spinning sounds like a round of new insights happening on a non-conscious level. That's how I percieve that kind of processing, anyway. It's closely related to the brain-shutdown that comes of encountering a very novel concept or situation.
    Fael Illyar was going to be taking things easy for a while now.
    Pema Pera: I mean, was there ever a time that it seemed hard to get back to a form of balance?
    Fael Illyar: was that a question for me?
    Pema Pera: yes, Fael, sorry
    Fael Illyar: not seriously disturbing. Things pretty much went such that when I felt disturbed I often fixed it within seconds.
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... in that it was "I" doing actually.
    Pema Pera: Yes, I think it is very important to listen to our own body/mind, to not overstress, but also not be unnecessarily timid
    Pema Pera: by and large we can ourselves feel what is right there, I think
    Adelene Dawner: Here's a question: When you felt the spinning, Fael... it was probably uncomfortable and/or distracting, but was there any other negative or threatening component to it?
    Faenik: could be
    Fael Illyar: no, not really. just felt like consciousness becoming rather ... incoherent.
    Adelene Dawner: Yup. Not a problem, then.
    Fael Illyar: managed to scare me though
    Adelene Dawner nods.
    Wol Euler nods. That's easy to believe.
    Pema Pera: there are many exercises that can be scary, when they seem to threaten the self/ego


     Walking very slowly.


    Pema Pera: Stim mentioned one in a session, a week or so ago I believe
    Pema Pera: an exercise where you walk very very slowly
    Pema Pera: and then more slowly
    Pema Pera: and even more slowly
    Pema Pera: I've done that
    Pema Pera: you can actually walk so slowly, moving your feet so slowly
    Pema Pera: that it takes five minutes to do a step
    Pema Pera: the first time you try that you are likely to get dizzy
    Pema Pera: and if so, it is good to stop and lay down
    Pema Pera: or breath deeply or go for a walk
    Pema Pera: but if you gently do it a few times
    Pema Pera: it is actually a nice way to show the self that it is not in control
    Pema Pera: the self just can't stand doing it so slowly :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Fael Illyar: I see
    Pema Pera: Wol, do you want to say more about good attachments? :)
    Fael Illyar: attachment to feeling peaceful wasn't quite one. It was treatening the ability to feel peaceful.
    Wol Euler grins. Just htat in my belief they can exist, and should not be rejected out of hand.
    Wol Euler: ok, that is different then. yes.
    Pema Pera: (and btw my experience with that slow walking exercise was first dizziness, but after a few times a wonderful floating sense, elation, joy, natural letting go)
    Fael Illyar: I guess I'll probably try that at some point
    Wol Euler: I wonder if this is again linguistic, I see "attachment" more as a fact than a problem
    Wol Euler: or source of problems (necessarily)
    Pema Pera: it's in the time space knowledge book, Fael
    Fael Illyar: Ah, good, something to remind me of it
    Pema Pera: p. 185, TSK book
    Wol Euler makes a note
    Fael Illyar: oh, phone call
    Pema Pera: I think, Wol, that it is like Fael's wall: first we try to have it or not have it, up or down, and then we find ways to wear it very lightly


     After a short pause, I try for comic relief.


    Wol Euler: (On a lighter note for a moment, is anyone else appalled on reading the transcripts, to see how bad their typing is? It#s all I can do, not to edit myself on the wiki.)
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Pema Pera: well, my typing is getting faster and a bit more careless, with the result that twice I have made a typo in giving someone my cell phone number -- not a good idea!
    Rajah Yalin: I am appaled now at how bad my typing is :P
    Rajah Yalin: hands kind of jitter so it comes out a sloppy mess
    Wol Euler nods. And the lag makes it worse, I think, delayed feedback.
    Pema Pera: oh, by the way, getting back to the 6-hour session -- I made an important correction there: Riddle said that *Doug* had walked out of an exam, and mentioned Doug's name a few times -- but it was *Genesis*, so I corrected that everywhere both on the blog, where it was already copied to and on the original wiki
    Wol Euler: yes, I noticed that he had said "Doug", wasn't sure.
    Pema Pera: [perhaps I should have made a comment, rather than changing Doug to Gen]
    Pema Pera: [ [decisions, decisions] ]
    Pema Pera: [ [ [oh well] ] ]
    Wol Euler: :-)
    Fael Illyar: ok back
    Wol Euler: wb


     It's nearly time. Pema leaves first, and the rest of us begin to wrap up.


    Pema Pera: Well, I have to get up in five hours . . . better go to bed finally!
    Wol Euler: yes, indeed. Off you go!
    Adelene Dawner chuckles
    Adelene Dawner: I should go, myself.
    Pema Pera: And don't you dear, you hear, to go on until 7 am @#$%^&*
    Pema Pera: then I will have to read it again tomorrow evening . . . . .
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Rajah Yalin: lol
    Wol Euler: heheheeh
    Pema Pera: see you all!
    Fael Illyar: Good night Pema :)
    Rajah Yalin: you tempting us Pema...
    Wol Euler: the probability is remote
    Wol Euler: bye pema
    Rajah Yalin: take care
    Adelene Dawner: cya Pem
    Pema Pera: when you say that, Wol, . . . . ..
    Fael Illyar: I'm not going to be here until that at least :P
    Pema Pera: . . . you know there are people who like taking you up on a challenge . . . .
    Wol Euler: well, it is of course non-zero :-)
    Pema Pera: I can see a few here in this circle . . . .
    Pema Pera: oh well, bfn!
    Wol Euler: and may even be self-fulfilling
    Fael Illyar: perhaps but the spinning is kind of making me want to go back to bed for a while.
    Adelene Dawner does take that kind of thing as a cahllenge, indeed - but has to leave for work at 4:00
    Adelene Dawner: *challenge
    Wol Euler nods. RL is tugging at my elbow too.
    Rajah Yalin: I am going to get to writing poetry
    Wol Euler: nice!
    Wol Euler: well, shall we wrap up for this session?
    Adelene Dawner: Sounds like a plan. See you all around.
    Rajah Yalin: see you all later
    Rajah Yalin: take care
    Rajah Yalin: gassho
    Wol Euler: thank you all very much for being so gentle on my first time, and for the great conversation
    Fael Illyar: Ok, let's end this session :) See you all later :)
    Wol Euler: bye rajah
    Adelene Dawner: Fael, if you want to get in touch with me, feel free to IM
    Fael Illyar: I might but for now I'm heading to bed.
    Adelene Dawner: sounds like a plan. See you later.
    Wol Euler: bye fael, bye adelene; see you all later
    Fael Illyar: Wol, do try to follow the meeting log tutorial :)
    Wol Euler: yes, I noticed that and will read it before proceeeding.
    Wol Euler: ty
    Fael Illyar: it's in the information, guardian tutorial section
    Wol Euler: btw, you seem to be the boss of the wiki, so I'll mention: the RSS feed for the recent changes doesn't seem to work. I get "not found"
    Fael Illyar: phone call again :/
    Faenik: why not?
    Fael Illyar: ok, done
    Wol Euler: sorry, I withdraw that! Just tried again and it works fine. Huh.
    Wol Euler: wb
    Fael Illyar: ah, temporary problem then
    Wol Euler: apparently. Good. Now go to bed :-)
    Fael Illyar: ok, although I get the feeling my phone isn't going to leave me alone :P
    Fael Illyar: I can't really say "go away" either since it's work.
    Wol Euler: ah, well let me tell you a secret I recently discovered: tehy can be turned off :-)
    Wol Euler: Call in sick for the morning? "back after lunch"
    Fael Illyar: Well, I'll see about that a bit later :P
    Wol Euler: bye for now, Fael.
    Fael Illyar: anyway, have a nice day :) See you later.

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