2008.08.08 07:00 - Walls, Irritations and the Silent Mind

Adams Rubble was guardian and is solely responsible for the comments unless someone appends this

Fael was at the pavlion when I arrived and we immediately start in with two separate conversation threads

Fael Illyar: Hi Adams :)
Adams Rubble: Hi Fael :)
Adams Rubble: How are you?
Fael Illyar: I left a couple of comments on your blog again :)
Adams Rubble: Yes I saw :)
Adams Rubble: I have lots of things irritating me right now
Fael Illyar: I'm good, rather stable again. mind is no longer spinning.
Adams Rubble: That is great!
Adams Rubble: I saw in some of the logs that you were dealing with it
Fael Illyar: ah, this mornings log isn't up yet
Adams Rubble: I haven't got anywhere near that far
Fael Illyar: it still doesn't feel like moving though
Adams Rubble: I am going to have minor knee surgery on August 20th
Fael Illyar: I'm just doing my best to learn how to "stand aside" :P
Adams Rubble: Well, I am learning that the moving takes time; we can't do all of it ourselves
Fael Illyar: knee surgery?
Adams Rubble: Yes to your comment
Adams Rubble: Yes my right knee is really bad but not bothering me right now
Adams Rubble: I have a torn mnescus on the left knee
Fael Illyar: to nitpick "I'm not doing it myself" but I'm hard pressed to explain who is then.
Adams Rubble: and it will require arthoscopic surgery to repair
Fael Illyar: but I'm standing aside to let whoever that is to "do" it.

Avastu Join us and after we share greetings, Fael and I continue discussing my irritaions and her wall

Fael Illyar: Hi Avastu :)
Adams Rubble: The two conversations are getting confusing :)
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Adams Rubble: Hello Avastu :)
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Adams Rubble: How are you Avastu?
Avastu Maruti: perfect - and you?
Adams Rubble: That is great. I am doing OK, thank you
Fael Illyar can't help smiling very broadly at the answer :)
Fael Illyar: Avastu's that is
Faenik: ah :)
Adams Rubble has missed Faenik this week
Fael Illyar: "I" am busy at the moment learning to "stand aside".
Faenik: purrs at Adams.
Adams Rubble is thinking of matadors
Fael Illyar: sounds like a ... suitable comparison point.
Adams Rubble: yes
Adams Rubble: Maybe I can use a bit of that myself :)
Fael Illyar: you get hurt if you don't.
Adams Rubble: Yes, if it is a raging bull
Fael Illyar: Yes, of course.
Fael Illyar: I guess that doesn't always happen
Adams Rubble: It's a good analogy even if it is not a raging bull :)
Adams Rubble: and just minor irritations, as in my case
Fael Illyar: minor irritations tend to grow if you let them.
Adams Rubble: Well, mine are external :)
Fael Illyar: irritation is always internal :)
Adams Rubble: well, the causes are external and they are just going to keep growing for the next month
Adams Rubble: Yes the irritation is internal
Adams Rubble: But most are work related and I am learning to put that in perspective
Fael Illyar: irritation is not accepting what is.
Fael Illyar: but I'm starting to sound like a broken record here.
Adams Rubble: Yes, but there is more to it in my case, I think
Fael Illyar: what more?
Adams Rubble: I have to stay at my post and resolve things while other things are going to be flying at me
Adams Rubble: Does one just walk out to reset?
Adams Rubble: It is not always possible
Fael Illyar: no need to walk out to reset
Faenik: ah :)
Adams Rubble is trying not to whine
Fael Illyar sort of would like to talk to Avastu about 'ego wall' but can't figure out anything to ask.
Fael Illyar: Whining usually has the essence of what's at the core of the irritation.
Adams Rubble: Yes Fael
Fael Illyar: I tend to do it silently sometimes. It's sometimes useful for understanding the irritation.
Adams Rubble: Yes, I know them well and could list them here. Suffice to say they will be a challenege for a few weeks. I would gladly stand (sit) aside and let you find a way to ask your question
Fael Illyar: I'd ask it if I knew what it is. But, I'm getting the feeling once I figure out the question, I no longer need to ask.
Faenik: なるほど^^

I try to discuss ESBS

Adams Rubble: I would like to mention that the ESBS exercise helped me to focus away from myself this week but I am finding it a very hard exercise to do
Fael Illyar: I haven't really tried it ... although what is going on right now sort of is very close.
Fael Illyar: Like yesterday's 7AM session, for a moment, thoughts with concept "I" just didn't form.
Adams Rubble: Could you elaborate a little?

Tahuti Arrives next and we discuss Fael's Ego Wall some more

Fael Illyar: Hi Tahuti :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Tahuti
Tahuti Thor: hello
Fael Illyar: I guess I temporarily lost 'ego wall' completely.
Tahuti Thor: hi everyone :)
Fael Illyar: or almost
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Tahuti Thor: kept meditating non-stop? @ fael
Fael Illyar: certainly felt like that for a few days.
Fael Illyar: now it doesn't feel like that anymore but meditation has sort of stopped feeling like much different.
Fael Illyar: slight difference but ...
Fael Illyar: It could be what Pema suggested about making the 'ego wall' transparent.
Fael Illyar: There were ups and downs to having the wall up and down both. Neither kind of felt "right".
Fael Illyar: so I guess it's now morphing into something else.
Fael Illyar: Adelene asked if it's become fluid and when I tried to think if it has, I felt like my mind started twisting.
Adams Rubble: Does this wall represent anything?
Fael Illyar: what do you mean represent?
Faenik loves wells!
Adams Rubble: Can you relate it to anything. I have only heard you refer to it as a wall
Fael Illyar: At first putting it down felt like golden hazy glowy mist was extending from my head but it's been a while since I last felt that.

Gaya then comes and makes us group of five

Adams Rubble: Hello Gaya
Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adams Rubble: I am asking because I am trying to understand. All of my barriers have turned out to some kind of attachment
Adams Rubble: I haven't had anything just blocking like a wall
Tahuti Thor: cant name one disadvantage of having the ego wall down (maybe defense survival purpose)
Fael Illyar: this one feels a bit different. It probably has existed long before the way I create attachments today formed I think.
Fael Illyar: at least there is nothing I can put to words behind it ... well, except perhaps "I AM"
Adams Rubble: This is very different from anything I have yet experienced
Fael Illyar: but somehow "I AM" doesn't feel a very good match
Fael Illyar: I was hoping Avastu might say something but looks like my guess was correct. Aside from greetings, he'll say nothing unless spoken to.
Avastu Maruti: :)
Tahuti Thor: not "I Am"....but there is this thought "I AM"
Tahuti Thor: "there is this thought I AM"
Faenik loves wells!

Hmmm. How do you feel about walls, Faenik?

Fael Illyar: hmmh, interesting, thinking "I am not" caused a slight disturbance.
Avastu Maruti: what does silence represent, Fael?
Fael Illyar: Being
Tahuti Thor: Descartes said "I think,therefore I am"
Tahuti Thor: he should really have said "there is thinking"
Fael Illyar: "there are thoughts"
Tahuti Thor: yes
Tahuti Thor: people go back n forth between "do i exist" or "do i not exist"
Tahuti Thor: either/or there are thoughts
Fael Illyar: hmmh, yes, in some cases, silence can say more than any words.
Tahuti Thor: indeed
Tahuti Thor: wordless/nameless thinking
Faenik: why not?
Tahuti Thor: where is Faenik lol
Fael Illyar: on my shoulder :)
Tahuti Thor: a parrot?
Faenik is a cat ... or at least tries to be.
Tahuti Thor: my screen resolution isnt that good
Tahuti Thor: k :)
Fael Illyar: you haven't learned to use the camera controls yet?
Tahuti Thor: arrow keys
Fael Illyar: try pushing alt down, holding it and then clicking and holding with the mouse on me while moving the mouse up.
Tahuti Thor: topic?
Fael Illyar: topic?

We are briefly interrupted by someone looking for a Chinese speaker who then departs to look elsewhere

Tahuti Thor: yes, whats the topic
Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar was blabbering about herself again. Nothing big.

Now, here's another another chance to bring up ESBS and I take advantage of the opportunity

Adams Rubble was wondering if others have been doing the ESBS exercise

There is a long silence until Tahuti asks...

Tahuti Thor: what exercise is that
Adams Rubble: Enlightened self sees, Being sees
Adams Rubble: I have found it helpful but very hard to do
Tahuti Thor: what it means?
Adams Rubble: You imagine what you would see if enlightened and then what Being is seeing at the same time
Adams Rubble: Storm has taken it a step further and gone back to the Enlightened self after Being
Adams Rubble: I have noticed reading the logs that there has been very little discussion about the exercise
Adams Rubble: That is so different from the first one YSBS
Tahuti Thor: Being = universal mind?
Adams Rubble: I imagine that is what Pema meant
Adams Rubble: He has urged me to go further than I have gone in the ones I described on my blog
Faenik: なるほど^^
Adams Rubble: Mine seem very awkward to me but they have helped me focus away from myself

But what does Being see?

Tahuti Thor: i dont imagine it seeing anything
Adams Rubble: That would make it even harder to do the exercise then :)
Adams Rubble: Although that would be an answer
Tahuti Thor: it does see but i imagine it not knowing what its seeing
Tahuti Thor: moreso a law than knowing
Tahuti Thor: its nature is to "be" ....it sees as one of its characteristcs but not to be to know anyting in particular
Tahuti Thor: not to know*
Faenik: could be
Adams Rubble: I think I tend to agree with you and maybe that is what is making this hard for me

I bring up God

Adams Rubble: Of course, I am using a metaphor of God to understand Being
Adams Rubble: Pema has suggested that Being look more within me when I am doing the exercise
Adams Rubble: I haven't had the time I need to do this since he suggested it
Tahuti Thor: God the omniscient metaphors
Adams Rubble: Well, a bit more for me :)
Adams Rubble: But for the exercise, that would be it, I think
Tahuti Thor: if u dont look within than the God omniscient metaphors might be hanging onto the mindsets of traditional religions
Tahuti Thor: not the answer is wrong per se........but u know what i mean
Faenik: indeed?
Adams Rubble: not quite sure
Tahuti Thor: God omniscient metaphors seem to be anthropomorphic
Tahuti Thor: and descibe God as knowing people,places, events similarly to how we know them
Adams Rubble: yes, and instinctively we know it has to be different
Adams Rubble: that is part of what makes this such a hard exercise
Tahuti Thor: its real confusin because we exist in Being also
Adams Rubble: yes
Adams Rubble: and the exercise is trying to relate the part to the whole
Faenik: indeed?

And Tahuti points out that we know what the part of Being we are part of sees, but not what the part of Being we are not part of sees. Of cousre he says it more eloquently

Tahuti Thor: might have to desctibe by using contradictions
Tahuti Thor: mind knows and does not know
Tahuti Thor: sees and does not see
Adams Rubble: That is an interesting thought, Tahuti
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Adams Rubble: and we are trying to see what we don't see and know what we don't know
Tahuti Thor: the silent mind can penetrate thru the contradictions
Adams Rubble: The silent mind? are you referring to meditation?
Tahuti Thor: meditation, intuition
Tahuti Thor: open heart, open mind
Adams Rubble: :)

With that, I bid adieu and fly away

Adams Rubble: That is a great place to leave this. I must go and have the log for today. If you all stay and want to append mine, please do. Bye everyone :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Tahuti Thor: k
Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
Adams Rubble: Thank you all :)
Tahuti Thor: take care :)
Fael Illyar: See you later Adams :)
Tahuti Thor: see u next time