2008.08.11 13:00 - Friendly to Words

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    I (Stim Morane) wasn’t feeling well but attended the session anyway since I had already ducked my previous Saturday evening time slot. A few people were already there, waiting.

    Threedee Shepherd: hi Stim
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Stim Morane: Hi Gaya, Threedee and Avastu
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Stim Morane: I have a bad cold today, so I will be even more boring than usual.
    Gaya Ethaniel: I’m sorry to hear it Stim
    Threedee Shepherd: hope yoou get better soon
    Stim Morane: THanks
    Stim Morane: It’s just air travel, tends to do this.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods
    Threedee Shepherd: so true
    Gaya Ethaniel: Cabin air quality is not great…
    Stim Morane: So, what shall we discuss today?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Don’t have anything particular in mind I’m afraid
    Stim Morane: OK

    But Threedee did have a topic in mind …

    Threedee Shepherd: “gut feelings” has been a topic in my body of late
    Stim Morane: You’re having more than usual?
    Stim Morane: Or just wondering about their status?
    Threedee Shepherd: physically yes, and I am hoving more difficulty listening to them than usual
    Threedee Shepherd: *having
    Stim Morane: Do you really find there to be a difference between these “feelings” and other things people usually consider more “mental”?
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Threedee Shepherd: hi all
    Stim Morane: I’m not denying the distinction, just making sure it matters in the case you mention.
    Threedee Shepherd: well, my gut feeliong physically “start” in my gut
    Stim Morane: Hi Ardelene!
    Stim Morane: Literally? There is of course a gut brain, and associated mind there.
    Stim Morane: And of course there are various “cakras” and tan tien centers there too.

    I won’t try to define “tan tien” here, but will just say I was referring to traditional yogic ways of experiencing physical intelligence as related to various centers, one of which is in the abdomen region.

    Threedee Shepherd: I know of it well and in detail, neurologically.
    Stim Morane: Yes.
    pd Paule: mind if I sit and lsiten?
    Stim Morane: Does that knowledge figure in your thoughts about this?
    Stim Morane: Hi pd. You are welcome to join us.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Stim Morane: Anyway, perhaps I’m asking too many questions. Would you like to give an example instead?
    Threedee Shepherd: it figures in as one factor
    Threedee Shepherd: Gut feelings are NOT words. They are more primal preecursors of being, and harder to *listen to*
    Stim Morane: I see.
    Threedee Shepherd: I am interested in how others experience such
    Stim Morane: This raises various issues. In more traditional forms of training, it’s common to work on integrating one’s human capacities, and in the process, they tend to yield one type of knowing, something that is beyond the limitations of words in the ordinary sense, but also friendly to words.

    In making this last comment, I wasn’t saying that traditional practice yields a single knowing but simply that what normally, prior to a course of such practice, seems like disconnected cognitive capacities eventually become unified in a kind of higher mind. This has many important consequences, including a higher function for words:

    Stim Morane: Words coming from a higher mind are no longer just words, just conceptual.
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, I will go get a quote from my current reading, brb
    Stim Morane: OK
    Stim Morane: Do the rest of you have any comments on this topic?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I just wonder whether there are any physical sensations that accompany ‘gut feelings’. Threedee?
    Threedee Shepherd: An example from “The Meaning of the Body” by Mark Johnson of feeling *language*;
    Stim Morane: Yes, I know of his work and collobarations with George Lakoff
    Stim Morane: Thanks for the question, Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: My pleasure
    Threedee Shepherd: “Bodily experiences are not merely accompaniments of doubt, rather they are doubt. Doubt retards or stops the harmonious flow of experience that preceded the doubt. You feel the restriction and tension in your diaphragm, your breathing and perhaps your gut. the meaning of doubt is precisely this bodily experience of holding back assent and feeling of blockage of the free flow of experience towards new thoughts, feelings and experiences”
    Threedee Shepherd: I am using doubt as an example, not as my current state
    Stim Morane: I’ll just say that my own comments were about a type of refinement and integration of body and mind that is beyond the concern of Mark or George. But without the understanding that you just quoted, it would be difficult to go further, integrating more … it’s this sort of observation that gives yogic process enough to work with.
    Stim Morane: So I’m all for what you mention, as a starting point.
    Threedee Shepherd: thanks. Do others here relate to it as a starting point of any sort?
    Stim Morane: I’m not sure how one would apply this in PaB, but perhaps some of you can see possibilities?

    This issue, combined with another concerning “intuition” that come up a bit later, provided the focus for the rest of our discussion.

    Threedee Shepherd: For me it is very much a part of 9-sec being on many occasions
    Stim Morane: Great
    Gaya Ethaniel: I do observe bodily sensations along with ‘mind’ during 9 sec
    Stim Morane: Would you like to say more, Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Just to say that I try to be aware of body and mind and how they are ‘related’ in any given moments during 9 sec
    Gaya Ethaniel: To see if any bodily sensations accompany any ‘thoughts’ for example
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Stim Morane: the link is not always obvious
    Stim Morane: I guess this was part of Theedee’s point to begin with.
    Threedee Shepherd: bodily sensations are one of the key sources of thoughts, and of raw knowledge–as in a young baby–as I see it.
    Gaya Ethaniel: That’s how I understood Threedee’s point yes
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Fael Illyar: Hi Everyone :)
    Stim Morane: Hi Fael!
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Stim Morane: Everything counts, everything contributes. The Western body-mind split needs to be seen in our own existence and released.
    Threedee Shepherd: agreed
    Fael Illyar: I guess I should’ve come earlier :)
    Stim Morane: We’re following up on a thread provided by Threedee, Fael.
    Threedee Shepherd: And, even knowing and trying to proctice restoration from that split, a lifetime of words makes listening to body hard
    Stim Morane: Yes, that was my experience.
    Stim Morane: But it is possible, and gets easier.
    pd Paule: The Western body-mind split is only an intellectual construct of those that have not read past Kant
    Faenik: could be
    Storm Nordwind thinks most people have not even read TO Kant!
    Stim Morane: unfortunately, it also exists in very entrenched forms in all people, whether they have been influnced by phil or not.
    Fael Illyar hasn’t read, period.
    Threedee Shepherd: Descarte and dualism are embedded into the language and standpoint of western societies so thoroughly, most don’t even realize it.
    pd Paule: seems as though existentialists and Zen are on the same path
    Threedee Shepherd: I would say phenomenologists moreso than existentialists
    Stim Morane: The issue is in the way we live, not in what we “think”. But I agree, pd, that there are many factors. Frankly, all human beings in all times and cultures have been in need of more integration than they usually achieved. I specifically cross-trained in other traditions than the main one I teach, just to deal with this split.
    Stim Morane: If it turns out PaB can help with that, terrific!
    pd Paule: PaB?
    Stim Morane: Sorry pd, this present gathering: Play as Being
    Stim Morane: Fael, I sent you an email of the exchange up to your arrival
    Fael Illyar: thank you :)
    Storm Nordwind would appreciate it too
    pd Paule: thnks - trying to follow thread
    Threedee Shepherd: I perceive the relevance of PaB concentrating on BEING, of which mind-brainness is a part
    Stim Morane: I am guessing that it emphasizes intuitions, rather than systematic training.
    Stim Morane: These intuitions can very likely arise from an integration that we may then proceed to excavate.

    My last comments here were motivated by a growing sense I’ve had that PaB may be primarily about triggering and nurturing intuitions. If true, this would mark PaB as involving a novel approach.

    Threedee Shepherd: are you say PaB emphasizes intuitions?
    Stim Morane: I am, but I could easily be wrong.
    pd Paule: revelation without discipline?
    Fael Illyar: at least for me it has emphasized intuition
    Fael Illyar: and not by a small amount.
    Stim Morane: There is a certain amount of discipline in the format here … 9 seconds every 15 minutes spent on attending to a suggestive slogan or theme.
    Threedee Shepherd: gut-feelings, intuitions, concepts and even words and more, are all part of BEING, as I perceive it
    Storm Nordwind wonders what isn’t

    This latter comment by Storm touches on a main point about “Being” that would be good to explore sometime in PaB.

    Stim Morane: Yes, that would be hard to dispute, Threedee
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/hin...ying-as-being/
    Threedee Shepherd: I know that words are a double edged sword in that they can confuse as readily as clarify.
    Gaya Ethaniel: pb this is our web log. and please let us know if you are ok with us making a record on this webpage your name and what you comment in this session
    Faenik: could be
    pd Paule: ok
    Stim Morane: Thanks, Gaya.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Pleasure
    Threedee Shepherd: I also know that the feelings and concepts preceed the words (as well as perhaps later dervie from them). But the word is not the thing, so it already removes me from primal experience.
    Threedee Shepherd: *derive)
    Stim Morane: I suspect everything can serve either to confuse us or lead us back to Being.
    Fael Illyar is basically deciding what he does with intuition nowadays.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks pd
    Threedee Shepherd: please say more Fael
    Fael Illyar: Well, at least for today has been entirely intuition I think.
    Fael Illyar: although, that could be because I felt there wasn’t much room for errors today.
    Threedee Shepherd: errors??
    Fael Illyar: I had a rather powerful experience yesterday that left me rather weak.
    Threedee Shepherd: yes?
    Fael Illyar: half the day I spent running between my bed, kitchen, and other places in my apartment based on intuition.
    Threedee Shepherd: searching and/or finding?
    Fael Illyar: just going straight to what I needed
    Fael Illyar: nothing extra
    Threedee Shepherd: Ah yes, my body knows where things are much better than my word-memory
    Fael Illyar: in some cases I wasn’t even thinking
    Stim Morane: Yes
    Fael Illyar: just doing
    Threedee Shepherd: I see that as an example of my main thread of body knowing
    Fael Illyar: even with things you’ve not done before?
    Threedee Shepherd: everything has some relevant done before, sometimes not as obviously as others
    Fael Illyar: well, yes, in that way
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Stim Morane: I would be willing to say that there are types of knowledge that go beyond the body, but I would also say that it’s hard to bring those forward without fulling appreciating the body’s own enormous intelligence.
    Fael Illyar: last night was the first time in ages I made myself matcha tea and … I’ve never before mixed the powder that well in the water with the equipment I have here.
    Fael Illyar: or well, you can’t do it better actually :)
    Stim Morane: You may find the same thing playing music, or simply walking … they all have that range.
    Threedee Shepherd: Stim: If by beyond the body you mean beyond *body-mind* that is something I am not aware of in my experience, not to say it does not exist
    Fael Illyar: anyway, what I did last night was mostly focused on survival.
    Stim Morane: I did not want to emphasize it, Threedee.

    I made the comment about “beyond the body” only to avoid inadvertently buying in to the notion that every level of knowing has to be body-based. Anyway, at this point I encouraged Fael to continue discussing a very personal exploration.

    Stim Morane: How so?
    Fael Illyar: I wonder how much of this my intuition allows me to reveal …
    Fael Illyar: I had a rather powerful experience that, I felt would be extremely bad idea to interrupt while it was going and while there was some calm stages afterwards, I had to retreat to my bed a couple of times in between doing things.
    Fael Illyar: I separated my RL self from Fael during that. I suspect it was survival strategy
    Fael Illyar: Fael had control of my physical body for close to 2 hours after it was over.
    Fael Illyar: because I was out
    Fael Illyar: questions?
    Fael Illyar listens to the sounds of silence.
    Adelene Dawner is moderately surprised at the lack of questions…
    Threedee Shepherd: Fael, was there a triggering event?
    Fael Illyar: Yes
    Threedee Shepherd: can/would you tell about it?
    Fael Illyar: I was feeling a strange, new kind of feeling that I could only interpret as intuition being confused.
    Stim Morane: Hi Solobill
    Fael Illyar: So, I ended up meditating to see if I’d find out what it’s about. There was a feeling of something stuck in my mind. Wordless thought but somehow different
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Solobill Laville: Hello, all!
    Stim Morane: Yes, Fael.
    Stim Morane: This is actually quite normal.
    Solobill Laville: /bdie
    Fael Illyar: Yes?
    Stim Morane: Once one departs from the beaten path, this sort of thing happens often.

    I was basically just saying that it’s very common to have new experiences and types of insight that are also marked by confusion precisely because they are so new.

    Stim Morane: Sometimes it takes a while to sort out.
    Solobill Laville: !bdie
    Fael Illyar: beaten path?
    Stim Morane: Ordinary mind
    Fael Illyar: Ah
    Stim Morane: it’s mostly habits
    Fael Illyar: well, anyway, while I was meditating, I realized I could initiate something and proceeded to do so right there.
    Faenik: could be
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friends
    Fael Illyar: Goodbye Avastu :)
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Stim Morane: This is a bad place to stop, but I do need to leave. Sorry.
    Stim Morane: Bye Avastu
    Fael Illyar: Ok, talk to you later Stim :)
    Stim Morane: Bye all!
    Solobill Laville: Bye, Stim

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