2008.08.24 19:00 - 9-sec Can Help Lend Perspective

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    Pia Iger is the guardian and prepared this log.

    When I arrived, 3D, Adams, Doug and Tahuti were already seated.
    After greeting, We got to a topic right away: what difference 9 sec has brougt to our RL.


    Tahuti Thor: hello everyone
    Threedee Shepherd: hi
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Pia :)
    doug Sosa: hi :)
    Pia Iger: Hi,
    Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps we could discuss what "seems different" during a 9-sec?
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pia
    Tahuti Thor: different from?
    doug Sosa: I have found that one of the first things that happens
    doug Sosa: in the 9 sec
    Threedee Shepherd: from the moments before or after
    doug Sosa: in a group of people, as you were at a party, is that they look closer and i am less anxious about it.
    Threedee Shepherd: even a SL party?
    Pia Iger: less self, hence less self-consciousness
    doug Sosa: no. then i see the pixels!
    doug Sosa: yes less self, less agaenda, less feeling I am missing something.
    Tahuti Thor: less notion of time
    Pia Iger: Do you also feel there is less friction between people?
    doug Sosa: I am not sure of that. Sometimes it is seeing the gathering as a wave in time, clearer for that.
    doug Sosa: not less friction, maybe even more, but i am less concerned to do something about it, knowing it won't likely help.
    doug Sosa: I feel friendlier, less jusdgemental.
    doug Sosa: actually, exploring further, less judgemental toward most but more towards a few .
    Tahuti Thor: world less fragementary
    doug Sosa: As if i can see the daggers in their hearts.
    Threedee Shepherd: Interestingly, I was at a RL party earlier and recently a SL party, both this afternoon, The RL party was interesting in that it was lots of people playing music, dancing, sharing food and celebrating a couple we all know. The joy and spontaneity felt like one long 9-sce experience, now that I reflect back on it.
    doug Sosa: that is terrific!
    Pia Iger: so, joy and spontaneity is the similarity?
    doug Sosa: I heard that the RL party was... more.Brings tears to my eyes. As we do the 9 sec
    doug Sosa: we are more open
    doug Sosa: to what is.

    Doug felt by comparison,  he sees less in SL than in RL social settings.

    doug Sosa: With RL there is much more that comes in when open. In SL i just don't know.
    doug Sosa: I'd love to pull each of you into RL with me.
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I see that as a result in the other 99% of the time, of the 9-sec.
    doug Sosa: wow.
    Pia Iger: good
    Pia Iger: Honestly, to me, RL people are more prickly to handle, though.
    Adams Dubrovna: Hi Steve
    Pia Iger: SL people are easy to go along
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Pia Iger: hello, Steve
    Adams Dubrovna: SL people can be pretty nasty away from PaB
    stevenaia Michinaga: PaB people? Adams?
    Adams Dubrovna: This is a nice group
    doug Sosa: steve have a seat.
    Pia Iger: I think Adams meant Non-PaB SL people
    Tahuti Thor: hello
    doug Sosa: good.
    Adams Dubrovna: Oh yes, sorry
    stevenaia Michinaga: thought you mean some of us in SL away from this group
    Pia Iger: hehe
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes, I realized that after Pia clarified :)
    Adams Dubrovna: Dr Jeckle and Mr Hyde
    stevenaia Michinaga: or Mrs Hyde
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Adams rezzes... smile

    After everyone smiled, Doug pulled us back to his puzzle: is there more Being in RL?

    doug Sosa: note I think we said something very important a few minutes ago.
    doug Sosa: That is, that in the 9 sec, the increase in what we see of people in RL is greater than what we see of people in SL
    doug Sosa: Perhpas in RL there is more BEING than in SL.
    doug Sosa: I am pussled by these, so i kep returning to it.
    doug Sosa: puzzled..
    stevenaia Michinaga: awww, before I arrived, sorry,
    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for repeating
    Adams Dubrovna: Could you clarify that a little Doug?
    doug Sosa: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Hmm, doug, there are some people I know well in SL who are more *real* to me than some casual RL acquaintences
    Pia Iger: RL is richer than SL. SL only present part of RL.
    doug Sosa: well, we were talking about doing the 9 sec at a party, and what happens to our experience, and three said sl, i am paraphraing, more happens in RL.
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, I did
    doug Sosa: So I said, slightly off balance, that in SL in the 9 sec we see more pixels.
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Adams Dubrovna: Hi Navi
    doug Sosa: hi
    Threedee Shepherd: hi

    People kept coming in. I did not get chance to greet everyone. We continue the comparison with the advantages of RL and SL. Do we see more in RL or not?


    Adams Dubrovna: It is so interesting the difference between the way we know people in RL compared to the way we know them here
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Rowan
    Rowan Masala: hi
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Rowan
    Adams Dubrovna: In some ways we communicate better here and some ways less well
    Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
    stevenaia Michinaga: at the very least more directly
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes

    doug Sosa: Yes we communicate better. very important, but do we also see less?
    doug Sosa: Especially in the 9 sec. In RL when I do the 9 sec with people
    Threedee Shepherd: I have been in groups in RL that met for purposeful introspection, and I think there are similarities in such a RL context and this PaB SL context.
    Adams Dubrovna: We are able to look back and not miss something someone said but we can;t see their body language
    doug Sosa: i see the pores of their skin, the wet in the corner of the eyes, the slight movment of the lips.
    Adams Dubrovna: yes Doug
    Pia Iger: those can be distraction too, Doug
    doug Sosa: That is why i want to pull each of you into rl but my motive to bring sb into sl is slightly different.
    Adams Dubrovna: Body language can lie
    Rowan Masala: but we may reveal more intentionally here, because we know people can't see those things, and we feel safer

    doug Sosa: More sharing than seeing.
    Threedee Shepherd: In RL there is a great amount of emotionally-charged body language and vocal tone that is not here. In RL that can be noise rather than "signal"
    Adams Dubrovna: yes 3D
    Pia Iger: yes, I experienced that, 3D
    Adams Dubrovna: and yes Rowan
    stevenaia Michinaga: words here can be thought about more and edited before "spoken"
    doug Sosa: Well i am delightfully puzzled by these.
    Threedee Shepherd: Every *medium* offers differing possibilities. That's fun.
    Adams Dubrovna: Yes, Steve, I wonder how often we just speak without thinking

    A little interesting side track.

    Threedee Shepherd: <aside> social science researchers have estimated that about 75% of casual conversation is essentially social grooming
     Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Pia Iger: what is exactly 'social grooming"?
    Adams Dubrovna: preening?
    doug Sosa: I pick your nits and you pick mine.
    Rowan Masala looks over at her cat in RL, grooming himself
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Rowan Masala: I'm nitless :)
    Threedee Shepherd: monkeys groom each other's fur to bond their relationship in an ongoing way. Verbal social grooming is much the same
    stevenaia Michinaga: I would love Adelene to be part of this conversation
    Pia Iger: "you look good today"
    doug Sosa: do monkies have more fun? Many tribal people also groom in that physical way.
    stevenaia Michinaga: she has a unique perspective on this

    I put something else on the table for discussion, which educed terrific contribution from everyone.

    Pia Iger: I was thinking, to me, there is sort of disconnection of what we say here, and what we do in RL.
    Pia Iger: not we, just I
    doug Sosa: more?
    Threedee Shepherd: Please say more Pia, I ask because I am pondering ways of more connection
    Pia Iger: There are so much wisdom talked here, but in RL I feel still awkward in many situations.
    doug Sosa: for me i take more risk in RL because of my SL experience.
    Threedee Shepherd: Pia, what is awkward?
    Adams Dubrovna: I am working on bringing things I learned into RL and I am getting better at it. One thing here is that we are reacting to a bunch of friends and so it is easier

    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Corvuscorva
    Pia Iger: like we talked about let it go, being present, I find myself often still in the old rut.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all.
    doug Sosa: hi :)
    Adams Dubrovna: The nine-second stop does help a bit there as Threedee and Doug noted at the beginning
    Adams Dubrovna: getting shorter
    Threedee Shepherd: IN RL, real danger is ever-present, a sense of that danger and reaction to it is not surprising.
    Rowan Masala laughs
    Pia Iger: yes, I feel strong anxiety and unsafety when something came up.
    Threedee Shepherd: nor unwise
    Pia Iger: lose the balance and content.
    Adams Dubrovna: I have found that things at work are just becoming less stressful I realize that they are not me
    doug Sosa: I was at a play last night and a piece of dialog was hilarious
    doug Sosa: if i am I and you are, then I am I and your are you.
    doug Sosa: But if the i I am is th I you thing I am
    doug Sosa: and the i you are is the i i think you are
    doug Sosa: then i am not I and you are not you.
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Adams, yes, danger is real no matter, extreme stress requires our participation , which can be otherwise.
    Adams Dubrovna: yes, of course
    Adams Dubrovna: Fortunately my work is not dangerous
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, see you soon
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Steve
    Rowan Masala: me too
    Threedee Shepherd: bye

    Rowan Masala: take care all
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Rowan

    Steve and Rowan left. I tried to narrow down the subject I brought up.

    Pia Iger: I agree, many cases 9 sec has helped, but other cases can be more challenging to our sense of peace.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Rowan.
    Adams Dubrovna: yes
    doug Sosa: worth exploring those cases.
    Threedee Shepherd: true, Pia
    Pia Iger: When you really feel the danger and unsafety, it is hard to think "all is well", "now is timeless"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: adrenline makes thinking hard for me....
    doug Sosa: in the 9 sec, no assumptions, including about all is well and timeless. better to see what happens, what is.
    Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps at that moment a 9-sec can let you observe was IS happening
    doug Sosa: and that what is happening is a presentation of being.
    Pia Iger: for example, a single mom found her son is having brain tumor.
    Threedee Shepherd: That is horrible
    Pia Iger: Can she still think of Being?
    Tahuti Thor: is her mind cultivated?
    Pia Iger: what do you mean 'cultivated'?
    doug Sosa: how did you get to the sinlgle mom?
    Tahuti Thor: does she have a firm blissful mind?
    Pia Iger: does a firm blissful mind work here?
    Threedee Shepherd: Being does not mean continuous happiness, to me. That is not realistic.
    doug Sosa: i still miss? How does the 9 sec relate to single mom?
    Adams Dubrovna: I can see where it would help the Mom if she is at peace with herself to start. I think Pia is thinking about how she can help 
    Tahuti Thor: how can u think with a clouded mind
    Pia Iger: Doug, I was giving an example that in some cases, it's hard to see 9-sec can help directly, either I do it or She does it.
    Pia Iger: The peace and joy we usually have is challenged here.
    Tahuti Thor: yes, so the question still is , is her mind firm and strong
    doug Sosa: Hm, being abe to see the naturalnes of it, not feeling victim, realizing that a crisis requires a response, needing to reconstitute community... all helped by ,,
    Tahuti Thor: if her mind is weak then challenges will frustrate it
    Threedee Shepherd: Pia, I agree "nothing" can help at the moment of initial knowing. The situation then is about as "raw" as being is. And, the moment passes and later, the 9-sec can help lend perspective, even if it cannot fix the tumor. And, the moment may last a long time.
    doug Sosa: such a crisis, in old language, is soul making, at the edge of the tolerable.
    Adams Dubrovna: The compassion is there already. Your strength might help her, I would think
    Threedee Shepherd: I am a father (2 daughters) 3 years ago my elder daughter had breast cancer. In my hardest mooments, I was paralyzed by the knowledge that this was not something daddy could fix, only support
     her needs.
    Adams Dubrovna: That is very difficult. How is she now?
    Threedee Shepherd: Well thanks, it was successful lumpectomy followed by radiation and chemo, to date.
    doug Sosa: one can only humbly bow.
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    Adams Dubrovna: That is good; hopefully it will stay dormant doug Sosa:
     the clean up, bring tea,..
    doug Sosa: then clean up, bring tea..
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, doug :)

    After a while of silence. I pondered what Tahuti said about firm mind.

    Pia Iger: I can really feel the difficulty others face. I wonder how we can face this better.
    Pia Iger: Firm mind can help, but not many poeple are that firm.
    Adams Dubrovna: We can only do that for ourselves I think
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, adams, I was looking for a way to say the same.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am glad Tahuti brought up the question.
    Adams Dubrovna: Pema talked to me about setting an example for my sons and daughters
    Pia Iger: ah
    Threedee Shepherd: I CANNOT be you, I CAN be in and offer relationship to you.
    Adams Dubrovna: yes
    Threedee Shepherd: I think that in such situations it is important not to assume what the other person needs, but rather to "ask" them in a compassionate way

    Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods.
    Adams Dubrovna: good advice
    doug Sosa: I wish i could take you all home, a fast walk at dusk in the garden, some tea, and settle in.
    Adams Dubrovna: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: :)

    Corvuscorva added a good point.

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Firm mind...perhaps it is a continuim of firmness?
    doug Sosa: but.. i need to return there... bye. :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!
    Threedee Shepherd: bye for now
    Adams Dubrovna: bye Doug
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not an absolute? Firm or not firm?
    Adams Dubrovna: Pia, I think this session should be a candidate for your list
    Pia Iger: why you say that?
    Pia Iger: Cor, it is a continuim of firmness? can you explain?
    Pia Iger: Sorry, Adams, don't mean to interrupt you.
    Adams Dubrovna: I wasn;t sure who you meant

    I made a confusion by asking both Adams and Corvuscorva a question at the same time. It's past the hour already. I was rushing myself. But I was glad to hear Corvuscorva's explanation.


    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am so new...but...I wondered...if perhaps one could become a little firm...and find it useful against the small things that vex one....and firmer....useful against more difficult problems...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire sighs...sorry, Adams...
    Pia Iger: good point, Cor.
    Adams Dubrovna: No no, I see I interrupted you
    Pia Iger: Yes, I think we are growing firmer here.
    Threedee Shepherd: Cor, another way to look at vexation is to bend and bend more

    Pia Iger want to wrap up meeting, but interested to know 3D's point of Bend more
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...me too.
    Pia Iger: (Adams, I was asking why you think this session be on my list)
    Threedee Shepherd: I know both are metaphors, and what I am getting at is that to "resist" is also to remain frozen in reflex response
     Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Adams Dubrovna: Pia, we discussed  the practice in real world situations and everyone had something to contribute. It is a good example of the group at its best
    Pia Iger: Ah, thank you. Adams.
    Threedee Shepherd: so neither firm nor bend are more than words. We try to find the practice in the real world context.
    Adams Dubrovna: Good night all. I feel priviledged to have been here tonight. Be well :)
    Pia Iger: Yes. we need find ways to practice in RL.
    Threedee Shepherd: goodnight :)
    Pia Iger: Night,Adams.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Night, Adams!
    Tahuti Thor: goodnight
    Pia Iger: Can we continue next time?
    Threedee Shepherd: always :)


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