2008.08.26 13:00 - Taking Walks and Running Circles

This session's guardian was Genesis Zhangsun.  The comments below are hers.

I arrived to meet Doug, Gaya, Adams, Solo, and Threedee and soon Corvi
doug Sosa: hi all.

Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Everyone :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi everyone!
Solobill Laville: Hello, everybody!
Threedee Shepherd: Hi folks
Adams Dubrovna: Last night at the Democratic convention I was struck by the fact
Adams Dubrovna: that Edward Kennedy seemed to be watching himself make his speech
Adams Dubrovna: just as we watch our thoguhts
Gaya Ethaniel: What gave you that 'impression' Adams?
Adams Dubrovna: The way he was laughing
Adams Dubrovna: He seemed detached
Adams Dubrovna: but was doing OK with the speech at the same time
Solobill Laville: Hmmm...ever feel like you're reading from your own teleprompter?
Adams Dubrovna: He Corvi :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Corvi
Threedee Shepherd: I suspect, given his condition, he was in a somewhat "altered state", perhaps even pharmaceutically
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello.
genesis Zhangsun: lol
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adams Dubrovna: yes, and he probably has given much the same speech many times
Solobill Laville: Hey there
Gaya Ethaniel: I've heard that meditative states can be induced chemically
Adams Dubrovna: hmmmm. I never considerd that
Threedee Shepherd: My sense is he was deeply involved in "being there" and saying a message
Adams Dubrovna: I'm sure he was
genesis Zhangsun: did you get the impression that Edward Kennedy was in a meditative state
Adams Dubrovna: no
genesis Zhangsun: is watching yourself in the mirror meditative?
Threedee Shepherd: And, given his tumor, that may have taken special effort that appeared to be like he was almost "watching himself"
genesis Zhangsun: hmm yes good point Threedee
Adams Dubrovna: and the fact that it may his last time there
doug Sosa: we don't know much. what did we actually see?
Threedee Shepherd: the last communal act of a dying man, perhaps?
Adams Dubrovna: I was just making an observation that it remined me of how we can watch out thoughts
genesis Zhangsun: interesting how everything we "see" or is transmitted to us especially via media is interpreted symbolically
doug Sosa: i don't think we can see that. I noticed that he looked a little puffy, the glasses distorted his eyes, he looked like he was making a successful effort.
Threedee Shepherd: Adams, by now we all know that one cannot "just" say something here :D
genesis Zhangsun: ah yes Adams how do you "watch" your thoughts
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Adams Dubrovna: yes, 3D
Adams Dubrovna: Gen, for the past weeks, I have been noticing that when I see
Adams Dubrovna: sometimes I also can noticing thoughts cloudy over
Threedee Shepherd: doug, your description is accurate to me. Yet, I added context. That raises the questi9on of whether/how the 9-sec can be context free?

Adams's walk through his mind...

Adams Dubrovna: I took a walk last Sunday and for 3/4 of the time I was not seeing anything
Adams Dubrovna: Then I forced myself to see
Adams Dubrovna: and it happened again
Adams Dubrovna: and then forced myself and I could see the clouds coming in
Adams Dubrovna: Since then I have noticed this at other times
Solobill Laville: What do you mean by "not seeing anything"?
Adams Dubrovna: I was walking on a tow path, between a cnal and a river, with wildflowers and birds and saw none of it. I was absorbed in thoughts about things bothering me
Solobill Laville: Ah, OK
Solobill Laville: genesis Zhangsun weren't seeing because you weren't there
Solobill Laville: Yes?
Adams Dubrovna: Yes, in a way you might say that. My eyes were open but nothing was registering
Solobill Laville: :), I actually take that quite literally
genesis Zhangsun: If you are present can you always see
genesis Zhangsun: is being present seeing
Adams Dubrovna: Well I went to see and I was ruining the experience for myself
genesis Zhangsun: sorry those were questions
genesis Zhangsun: just left off the ?
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm guessing you didn't hear much either Adams?
Adams Dubrovna: right Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: 'Forgot' about your body Adams?
Gaya Ethaniel: 'Detached' from your body?
Adams Dubrovna: hmmm
Solobill Laville: I bet you also forgot about your mind then too...
Adams Dubrovna: probably
Adams Dubrovna: probably to Gaya
Threedee Shepherd: Adams, were you "with" your thoughts?
Solobill Laville: Yes, that's what I meant 3D
Adams Dubrovna: My mind or "self" had just taken over and was running amuck
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I was going to ask that too Solo/3D
Threedee Shepherd: And did you observe that in any 9-sec like way?
Adams Dubrovna: When I realized what was happening I began to do a walking meditation which allowed me to see what was around me. I knew this form of memditation would do that for me
Adams Dubrovna: and it did and then I as I noted I had to keep renewing it, concentrating on it, to keep the thoughts away
Threedee Shepherd: why keep the thoughts away?
Adams Dubrovna: I could feel my mind fighting me
Adams Dubrovna: Why? because they were ruining my walk. They were negative, destructive
Solobill Laville: What did that fight feel like, Adams?
Adams Dubrovna: Oh my
Solobill Laville: :)
Adams Dubrovna: I don;t know if I can answer that. It felt good that I became mindful of what was ahppening
Gaya Ethaniel nods... and understands
Threedee Shepherd: adams, what did you mean by "Oh my"?
Solobill Laville: 20 questions, Adams ;)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adams Dubrovna: It was a question I did not expect, like yours 3D
Adams Dubrovna: :)
genesis Zhangsun: who was the source of your thoughts...was it you in RL, Adams or Z Self (sorry I read your blog and loved this so had to bring it up)
Threedee Shepherd: I spend lots of time thinking. Can't help it and don't even want to. So, that's where I am at those moments. Judgements are something else.
Solobill Laville: What happens to your thinking during the 9-secs, 3D?
Adams Dubrovna: At the time I was thinking it may be the last walk of the summer because I was having knee surgery which turned out to be a "piece of cake"
genesis Zhangsun: glad to hear that Adams
Adams Dubrovna: I was thinking about work and toher stuff my mind was conjuring up
Solobill Laville: Yes, congrats on the succesful surgery, Adams!
Adams Dubrovna: Thanks, the doctor deserves it all :)
Solobill Laville: So, Adams, would you consider it a "fight" against those thoughts?
Adams Dubrovna: It was that day :)
Solobill Laville nods
genesis Zhangsun: was this day you were coming up with the Z seld
Adams Dubrovna: Now that I have witnessed it, I expect it will be different in the future. I will know what is happening
genesis Zhangsun: oops Z self or the day of the not "seeing"
Adams Dubrovna: Ah, Gen, this was part of the series of events
Adams Dubrovna: The z self first, then the walk, then the observation then the insight over three and a half days
Adams Dubrovna: Each part was important

Noisy mind and Dust Visualization...

Gaya Ethaniel: I used to call such mind state of mine 'noisy'
genesis Zhangsun: thats a good word
Adams Dubrovna: That is a good description Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'thanks'
Solobill Laville: WHen I first started sitting, I visualized dust flying around, then slowly settling, then still
Threedee Shepherd: sorry, crashed. Could someone send me the log starting at 13:26, please?
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure
genesis Zhangsun: I like that Solo
Adams Dubrovna: yes
genesis Zhangsun: there are definitely stages I sense like this
Solobill Laville: wb, 3D
Threedee Shepherd: crash
genesis Zhangsun: when the dust is still in the visualization do you feel still?
genesis Zhangsun: or stay still?
Solobill Laville: Yep
Adams Dubrovna: I would not have understood what you just said before last Sunday, Bill
Solobill Laville: The falling dust coincides with settling
Gaya Ethaniel: Would you say Solo in that stillness you experience Being?
Solobill Laville: Wow, Adams!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Solobill Laville: Well, it can be the "ripe garden" for it Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel listens
Solobill Laville: But the stillpoint is just still
Solobill Laville: I think awareness changes, as our mindbody changes
Solobill Laville: some days are better than others, like last Sunday
Threedee Shepherd: Not meaning to be "cute", is it ever possible NOT to experience being?
Solobill Laville: Not litlerally
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adams Dubrovna: If we are not open to the experience?
Solobill Laville: (definition of experience necessary)
genesis Zhangsun: do you think this stillness with the possibility of being can be acheived in 9 secs?
Solobill Laville: yes
Gaya Ethaniel nods
genesis Zhangsun: others?
Gaya Ethaniel: others?
genesis Zhangsun: yes I was asking everyone's thoughts
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Threedee Shepherd: I am still pondering the movement in the spectrum being<--->BEING
Gaya Ethaniel: spectrum being 3D?
Threedee Shepherd: is there as difference in kind or a difference in degree of my typical moment-to-moment being, and my observation of BEING during the 9-sec?
Gaya Ethaniel: Not sure about 'degree' but different certainly
Adams Dubrovna: In other words, do you expereince Being the same way at any given moment?
Gaya Ethaniel: My statement refers to 'genesis Zhangsun Seeing'
Threedee Shepherd: Not quite. Is the Being during the 9-sec a different state and/or a less cluttered observing?
Solobill Laville: For the vast majority of the time, I'd posit the latter 3D
Gaya Ethaniel: Thou... these day YS almost = BS
Threedee Shepherd: I tend to agree Solo. That helps me to be able to use the 9-sec *tool* at other times.
Solobill Laville: The removal of clutter allows for the Expereince of Being, but doesn't make it a certainty, by a long shot
Solobill Laville: As a tool it has many uses :)
Solobill Laville: Can change my whole attitude on a work day, for example
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adams Dubrovna: yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye all! thank you.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adams Dubrovna: By Corvi :)
Solobill Laville: Bye
Threedee Shepherd: bye
genesis Zhangsun: bye
Solobill Laville: 3D, earlier I had asked you what happens to your thinking during the 9-secs?
Threedee Shepherd: I "think" I know meaning for the phrase "Expereince of Being" in the Buddhist tradition-sense. In that sense, it almost seems like "another kind" of being. I am pondering when "Being Is" and what changes is the observations
Threedee Shepherd: My thinking slows down
Threedee Shepherd: perhaps a more useful way to put i8t is to say that words are replaced by patterns, yes, that is more what I meant
Solobill Laville: patterns of thought?
Gaya Ethaniel: Patterns of experiences?
Solobill Laville smiles
Threedee Shepherd: patterns that are the Being
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Threedee Shepherd: I am trying to use the word patterns to be a whole glimpse/awareness of thought NOT in words.
Solobill Laville: RIght, but patterns is a word too, of course
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok Fael used to say 'wordless thoughts'
Solobill Laville: with its inherent meanings
Solobill Laville: Admittedly, I personally never fully grasped her meaning by that
Threedee Shepherd: pattern is a word that describes (incompletely) a state that is not a word.
Solobill Laville: Maybe she meant Awareness?
Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps yes Solo
Gaya Ethaniel: Something that cannot be put into words... if put into words, one feels wrong
Threedee Shepherd: May I try a metaphor?
Adams Dubrovna: please
Gaya Ethaniel: Pls
Solobill Laville: But we were talking then of wordless thoughts
Solobill Laville: go ahead, 3D
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Solo... perhaps the phrase itself is alos limited to describe what she means
Threedee Shepherd: I am outdoors. There is a rise in the ground there, a dip nearby, water flows from rise to dip in a swirl. that's the pattern. It is sensible. "Oh look, the STREAM is rushing down the HILL into the VALLEY" are follow-on words.
Solobill Laville: Perception then reflection
Adams Dubrovna: image?
Storm Nordwind is Offline
Threedee Shepherd: mm-hm, and I suggest it is still perception when what I am perceiving is the pattern of my thoughts themselves
Threedee Shepherd: which I note borders on being a pointlessly circular notion :)
Solobill Laville: yes, isn't that the same as watching your thoughts arise?
Adams Dubrovna thinks the session is beginning to get circular
genesis Zhangsun: agreed Adams
Solobill Laville: :) Just like a play
Threedee Shepherd: Yes. I suspect I am trying to clarify the differences when words do and do-not intervene,
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Threedee Shepherd: clarify for myself, I mean
Solobill Laville: Ah, yes, 3D. I believe they mostly do. IMO.
Gaya Ethaniel: It really helps to listen to clarifications Threedee as what we do here is difficult to communicate to each other

Newcomers Lizz and Yasiel arrive at the end of the session...
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Lizz
Adams Dubrovna: yes, agreed
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Yasiel
Solobill Laville: Hey, Lizz
genesis Zhangsun: very decent of you to put on pants for us Yasiel
genesis Zhangsun: lol
Lizz Thespian: Hey
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Lizz have you ever been to one of our sessions?
Lizz Thespian: I like this place... very serene
Lizz Thespian: no
genesis Zhangsun: Our group meets four times a day to talk about different notion of reality
Threedee Shepherd: Thank you all, I need to leave. Next time :)
Solobill Laville: Bye, 3D
Adams Dubrovna: bye Threedee :)
genesis Zhangsun: check out our site http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
genesis Zhangsun: bye Threedee
Adams Dubrovna: I need to go too now. Thanks everyone. bye :)
Solobill Laville thinks Gaya's squid may be squiting him with ink ;)
genesis Zhangsun: see you Adams
Solobill Laville: BYe, Adams
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
genesis Zhangsun: genesis Zhangsun actually came to the end of one of the sessions Lizz
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Yasiel Jigsaw: hi
Lizz Thespian: Well there is a next time, right?
genesis Zhangsun: we meet at 1am, 7am,7pm, 1pm daily
Solobill Laville: Oh, yes!
Yasiel Jigsaw: wow
genesis Zhangsun: yes come on by anytime!
Lizz Thespian: OK! Thanx
genesis Zhangsun: well not those of us here necessarily
genesis Zhangsun: but someone from our group
genesis Zhangsun: although some do go for some marathon runs
genesis Zhangsun: it is known to happen
genesis Zhangsun: Well I am off
genesis Zhangsun: thanks for the session guys
Gaya Ethaniel: Off to bed for me. Thanks for the conversation and have good rest of the day
Solobill Laville: Me too, Gen, take care of yerself!
Lizz Thespian: Nice meet ing you all
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Gaya Ethaniel: Pleasure Lizz
Solobill Laville: Night, Gaya
genesis Zhangsun: Bye Solo!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Solobill Laville: Nice to meet you Lizz
genesis Zhangsun: bye Gaya
genesis Zhangsun: Nice meeting you too Lizz