2008.08.31 19:00 - Gene pools, cats, and kakrafoon

Rowan Masala was the guardian for this meeting.  The comments below are hers.

Adelene was sitting peacefully in her own meditation when I arrived at the pavilion.

Rowan Masala: Hello Adelene
Adelene Dawner: hi :)

And Threedee joined us soon thereafter.  We tried to get a sense of what time of day it was for each of us.

Rowan Masala: Hello 3D
Rowan Masala: welcome
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: hello folks
Rowan Masala: Adelene and 3D, where are you in RL? what time zone?
Threedee Shepherd: Colorado, MDT * PM
Adelene Dawner: New Jersey, here, Eastern time.
Rowan Masala: me too
Threedee Shepherd: 8 PM
Rowan Masala: ah, mountain time
Threedee Shepherd: the "forgotten" time zone
Rowan Masala: forgotten? in what way?
Threedee Shepherd: never gets mentioned when TV is announcing when things will be on

Prospero appeared next and joined in our chit chat about time zones.

Rowan Masala: Hello Prospero
Rowan Masala: welcome
Rowan Masala: ah
Threedee Shepherd: Then again, there's only about 16 million people in the entire time zone :)
Rowan Masala: that's a lot of people :)
Prospero Frobozz: Hey
Prospero Frobozz: Which is the forgotten time zone?
Threedee Shepherd: more than that in most metropolital areas
Threedee Shepherd: Mountain
Prospero Frobozz: I'm confused about time zones all the time 'cause I live in CST but work in PST....
Rowan Masala: ah yes, that would be confusing
Threedee Shepherd: telecomuting I hope :D
Prospero Frobozz: YEs
Prospero Frobozz: Otherwise, the commute would be murder
Threedee Shepherd: hehe

And then Steven...

Threedee Shepherd: Hi steve
Rowan Masala: welcome, Steven
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Rowan...smile
Adelene Dawner: Don't mind me, I'm not entirely here. Rough day at work.

And we launched into our discussion of the 9-second practice.

Rowan Masala: how is the 9-second meditation going for everyone?
Prospero Frobozz: So, I've only been to one of these sessions before; apologies if I'm ignorant about protocol and such.
Rowan Masala: ah, well, I'm new as a guardian, so we're in the same boat
Rowan Masala: do we have your permission to record your chat, Prospero?
Prospero Frobozz: Yes
Rowan Masala: thank you
stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell
Rowan Masala: Adelene, I'm sorry you had a rough day at work
Prospero Frobozz has not been doing 9-second meditations, but is curious what folks' experiences with it are. Are you able to really defocus within 9 seconds so that you really are able to reflect?
stevenaia Michinaga: this is a good starting point prospero
Adelene Dawner: Eh. Happens. I'm off for the next two days; I'll be ok.

And where some of us deviated from the 9-seconds...

Rowan Masala: well, Prospero, to be honest, I find that 9-seconds doesn't work for me
Rowan Masala: I tend to take longer periods a bit less often
Rowan Masala: but I think Pema's concept of 1% of your time is a nice one
stevenaia Michinaga: Prospero, speaking generally, any tool or method if worked with intently has the ability to be productive, and refined in time
Adelene Dawner: I do the same, Rowan.
Rowan Masala: I just take it in a different way
Rowan Masala: what about you, 3D?
Threedee Shepherd: usually a bit longer than 9-sec, and often when I "need it" or it is an appropriate response to the moment
Rowan Masala nods
Rowan Masala: do you have a meditative practice, Prospero?
Prospero Frobozz: I don't
stevenaia Michinaga: I know artist that can take any .5 mm pencil, for instance and produce art, it;s just a matter of focus, I belive any "method" of meditation can also produce.... something
Rowan Masala smiles
stevenaia Michinaga: so why not 9 second?

And Prospero brought up an issue I struggle with myself--how to quiet the mind...

Prospero Frobozz has always had a very hard time getting his mind to "quiet down" -- even for going to sleep at night, for instance.
Rowan Masala: Steven and I have had this discussion before. I think I argued that the artist couldn't produce very much if there wasn't time for the pencil to reach the page
Prospero Frobozz: I guess one question I have about the 9-second meditation thingies is -- do you really try to get your mind to quiet down? Or is it more self-observation?
Threedee Shepherd: some of both, for me
Rowan Masala: for me, I think it's mostly about the pause
Prospero Frobozz: Rowan : some artists would be able to do something neat in 5 seconds, others wouldn't... depends on the artist.
Prospero Frobozz: When you pause, do you just *pause*, or are there particular questions you ask yourself?
stevenaia Michinaga: I use breathing I leaned in yoga, a deep breath or two can change mental and physical states
Rowan Masala: I try to focus on my breathing as well
Threedee Shepherd: I try to not-ask
stevenaia Michinaga: focus on opening your mind and changing your perspective, the questions come
Prospero Frobozz: Onions
stevenaia Michinaga: for me at least
Rowan Masala: layers and layers?
Prospero Frobozz: Whenever I've tried to clear my mind, or stop with whatever I'm focusing, all that happens is I find other things on my mind... "gee, my foot is falling asleep" or "I will need to go to the bathroom soon", or "hey, perhaps I could try using that method to solve that coding problem I haven't thoughth about in three days"
Prospero Frobozz: (The first two came from right now, ... TMI probably :) )
Rowan Masala nods, smiling
Rowan Masala: not at all TMI
Rowan Masala: I think it's fascinating to find out what the experience is like for people
Threedee Shepherd: excuse, what's TMI?
Rowan Masala: too much information
Threedee Shepherd: ah
Rowan Masala: have you ever tried counting your breaths, Prospero?
Prospero Frobozz: Rowan : not sure. I do things like count steps, count the number of times I stir, things ilke that.... in an OCD sort of way.
Prospero Frobozz: Sometimes at night when I'm having trouble going to sleep I try counting backwards, but generally I find that my thoughts have drifted and I'm actively thinking about something else before long....
Rowan Masala laughs--I know what that's like--one of the reasons I had to shift from 9-seconds to "a few moments" is that I kept worrying about how long 9-seconds was
Threedee Shepherd: I have decided that if my head wants to race as I am trying to sleep, I will go with it and see what happens. Then again, I have the luxury of waking up when I want to.
Prospero Frobozz: Heh
Prospero Frobozz: Yeah, usually I just go with my mind racing, but sometimes I really want to go to sleep....
stevenaia Michinaga: have you meditated using any other ways before, Prospero?
Prospero Frobozz: I've found another solution recently to going to sleep fast, and that's to stay up too late every night....
Prospero Frobozz: stevenaia : only sort of.
Rowan Masala: can you tell us a little bit about what it's like to watch your mind race, 3D? that sort of mindfulness of the racing?
Prospero Frobozz: I've tried emptying my mind and just paying attention to what's there... sounds in the enviornment that I've filtered out, that kind of thing. I don't do it often.
Threedee Shepherd: I try to do a 9-sec type "observation" without judgment or conclusion, sort of turning it into a waking almost-dream
Rowan Masala: and what does that look like?
Threedee Shepherd: Hard to answer. I have always spent lots of "time in my head" though now (being retired and all that) it is not usually coupled with anxiety.
Rowan Masala smiles
Rowan Masala: nice to know that there's an end to anxiety out there for some

Starseed joined us for a few moments, but never spoke...

Rowan Masala: hi Starseed
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Starseed
Rowan Masala: welcome
Threedee Shepherd: hi
Rowan Masala: forgive me, I'm new at guardianship, so I don't know you. have you been to PaB meetings before, Starseed?
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I wonder what would have been had I reached this state years ago, oh well ;)
Adelene Dawner chuckles.

9-second cat meditation...

Rowan Masala: Steven, I think you suggested once that we pause when the chimes ring, and meditate for 9 seconds as a group then
Rowan Masala: can someone with better sound tell us when it chimes?
stevenaia Michinaga: I'll try to remember, thanks
Rowan Masala: oh, and my cat is trying to lie across my keyboard, so any odd typing is him, not me :)
Prospero Frobozz: heh
Prospero Frobozz: I get that
Prospero Frobozz: My cats like to rename the hard drive on my mac
Rowan Masala: oh my!
Rowan Masala: do they have favorite names?
Prospero Frobozz: }{:ll0...
Prospero Frobozz: mostly
Rowan Masala: ah yes, such a powerful name in feline
Rowan Masala grins
stevenaia Michinaga: careful, my laptop vacuums cat hair better than you can imagine
Rowan Masala: I find snuggling with my cat to be very meditative
Threedee Shepherd: Interesting about anxiety and even annoyance (there is some now at a RL situation), I just noticed once again that the *only* one I am *arm-wrestling* is me :D
stevenaia Michinaga: so said my apple repair man
Prospero Frobozz: They've also turned on various desktop features (like, once, an accessibility option so that it spoke the name of every icon I clicked)
Prospero Frobozz: They never tell me how to turn them back off
Prospero Frobozz: Threedee : true re: anxiety and annoyance, although sometimes there's an external arm-wrestle fuelling the internal one
Rowan Masala: I can become so absorbed in the sound of his purr and the feel of his fur, it's as if the rest of the world disappears
Prospero Frobozz: That sounds like meditation to me :)
stevenaia Michinaga: you ahve 9 second cat moments
stevenaia Michinaga: GONG
Rowan Masala: ah, chimes
Rowan Masala: 9 seconds everyone
Rowan Masala: ok
Rowan Masala: I think that's about 9
Prospero Frobozz: Heh

Continuing with the discussion of external v. internal sources for anxiety...

Threedee Shepherd: Prospera. The external usually has a real aspect to deal with. The internal I am making up to no good end :)
Prospero Frobozz: I started late
stevenaia Michinaga: I agree, threeD, that is a choice how it affects you
Rowan Masala: The external v. internal anxiety issue
Rowan Masala: a very interesting one as it relates to Being
stevenaia Michinaga: there is no external anxiety, is there
Threedee Shepherd: no, there is not
Prospero Frobozz: But there can be external sources of stress, assuredly.
Rowan Masala: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Rowan Masala: and for those who are more externally focused, particularly so
Threedee Shepherd: stress is the *feeling*, anxiety is a later judgement or evaluation that is a choice, even if I don't realize it at the time.
Threedee Shepherd: as in stress happens, anxiety is invented ;)
Rowan Masala: I agree that we create the situation in our mind that leads to anxiety, but I think that's the same with stress
Prospero Frobozz: "Create" is such an active term, though... sometimes creating stress in our own minds is very unconscious. E.g. the stress you get when a loud noise goes off unexpectedly behind you -- autonomous reaction.
Threedee Shepherd: stress has physical comcometants that have alot to do with rational survival goals, I suggest
Prospero Frobozz: Yeah
Rowan Masala nods
Prospero Frobozz: Our survival mechanisms run amuck way too often.
Threedee Shepherd: true, but the alternative was not to contribute to the gene pool, way back when :D
Prospero Frobozz has decided not to have kids, so he thinks that he should be exempt from gene pool considerations :)
stevenaia Michinaga is a generous donor

And back to clearing the mind...

Rowan Masala: Prospero, can you remember a time when you have been able to clear your mind more effectively, intentionally or unintentionally?
Prospero Frobozz: Hmm... I can remember when I was *worse* at it.
Prospero Frobozz: I don't know if I remember a time ever being especially adroit with it.
Rowan Masala: what do you think contributes to the times it's more difficult?
stevenaia Michinaga: then it may take you more time... but with patience, who knows
Prospero Frobozz: Rowan : I'm addicted to thinking, always want to be thinking about something. I like it. And, I often have things going. But... the unhealthy part is that I'm a worrier. Not so bad right now, but in the past I've been a compulsive worrier, and that's what would take over my mind if I gave it the chance.
stevenaia Michinaga: I live for the quiet mind moments / worry free moments
Rowan Masala: I read something interesting yesterday, regarding neurolinguistic programming
Rowan Masala: that relates to the worry issue
Rowan Masala: the author argued that since we're able to procrastinate about so many things
Rowan Masala: perhaps we should try to procrastinate worrying
Prospero Frobozz is a world-class procrastinator
Prospero Frobozz: And, yes, sometimes I procrastinate worrying too.
Rowan Masala: a sort of Scarlet O'Hara thing, I guess
Threedee Shepherd: haha
Prospero Frobozz: But that means if somebody reminds me of something I have to do, it makes it all the more stressful :)
Rowan Masala: but really, if the worry isn't serving a purpose... why not take at least 9 seconds of time away from it
Threedee Shepherd: procrastination can often be productuve-delay. By the time you get around to it, it is no longer necessary :D
Rowan Masala: yes, 3D!
Prospero Frobozz: Threedee : I learned that lesson in spaces when I was a post-doc....
Prospero Frobozz: There was a particular task that when done before the absolute last minute meant that it had to be re-done repeatedly as long as there was time, to no significantly different result.
Prospero Frobozz: But... everybody else (who wasn't doing it) wanted to quesiton the way it was done and suggest ways to redo it. I learned not to do it before the last minute so there wasn't time to question....
Prospero Frobozz: s/spaces/spades/
Rowan Masala nods
Rowan Masala: chime
Rowan Masala: 9 seconds all
Rowan Masala: ok
Threedee Shepherd: <aside> although, Prospero, that may fit my rule that you can do in 3-hours almost perfectly on a computer, what you could have done more than adequately by hand in 30 minutes ;D
Prospero Frobozz: heh
Rowan Masala smiles
Rowan Masala: or the notion that the work of a task expands to fill the time alotted to it, and conversely contracts if little time is alotted at all
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Rowan Masala: did anyone have anything noteworthy in that 9second period?
stevenaia Michinaga: I was distracted (as usual)
Threedee Shepherd: a moment of detachment

Then Pia, after internet connection frustration, was able to join us...

Rowan Masala: Welcome, Pia
Threedee Shepherd: hi Pia
Rowan Masala: it's good to see you
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pia
Pia Iger: gosh, my wireless was not working. Just got home to use landline.
Pia Iger: how is going?
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for joining us
Threedee Shepherd: "technology" never let a machine know you are in a hurry or have a real need :D
Rowan Masala: we're having an interesting discussion about stress and worry
Pia Iger: Yes. 3D.
Pia Iger: Please continue
Rowan Masala: and I think Prospero is interested in learning methods to help him clear his mind during meditation
Rowan Masala: do you have suggestions, Pia?
Pia Iger: We all need that. In the last 30 min, I was clearly in frustration and not knowing how to keep cool.
Threedee Shepherd: Well, I experienced that it took regular and repeated 9-sec moments to get to the clearer point. sort of *grew* on me.
Rowan Masala: how regular, and for how long, 3D?
Threedee Shepherd: at least hourly, probably for a week or two
Rowan Masala nods
Rowan Masala: hourly, all day?
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Pia Iger: a few tricks I learned here for meditation, is to stay with your breath, observe your mind without judge
Pia Iger: so while I still feel frustration or stress, frequent 9-sec breaks prevent them from accumulation.
Rowan Masala nods
Pia Iger: every day there is still ups and downs, but they don't impact me too deeply. in average, I am quite stable and contented.
stevenaia Michinaga: ..smile, a nice thing
Pia Iger: and meeting friends here definitely help. Once I saw you all sat here peacefully, I feel much better, relieved from my internet frustration.
Rowan Masala smiles
Rowan Masala: I'm sorry you were worried, Pia
Rowan Masala: chime
stevenaia Michinaga: Gong
Threedee Shepherd: Prospero, I observe that there is "something here" about PaB that *works* and does so in different ways for each of us.
Rowan Masala: I wonder if trying to filter out a few of the distractions at a time might help--perhaps to try to focus on input from just one sense, for that nine seconds
Prospero Frobozz: Once I close my eyes, most of the distractions for me usually tend to be auditory.... those are the things my brain latch on to
Prospero Frobozz: latches
Prospero Frobozz [doesn't mean to imply with verb conjugation that he has multiple brains]
Rowan Masala: and what if you focused only on those, rather than viewing them as disctrations?
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm, this last moment I get this shaking up activity inside then almost a stopping of time outside, like the click in Tomb Raider (for those of us who are Laura Croft (angelina Jolie) fans
stevenaia Michinaga: like the clock, rather
Prospero Frobozz: I was thinking click, must be something you do with the mouse in the game :)
Rowan Masala: I'll be interested in hearing how your meditative attempts progress, Prospero
Rowan Masala: as I try the same
stevenaia Michinaga: some people do a blog of their moments
Threedee Shepherd: <total tangent of a neuroscientist> It's interesting that vision is the only sense we can actively *close*
Rowan Masala: 3D and Pia seem to have good suggestions, and Steven is typically inherently serene
Rowan Masala: ah, well, 3D, I have the luxury of removing my hearing aids and having the world become much quieter, although not silent altogether
Prospero Frobozz: heh
Pia Iger: it helps if you don't intent to de-latch, just observe, sit with either vision or audio distraction. then they will disperse somehow, or not bother you that much.
Pia Iger: the more you try to get rid of them, the more bothersome they become
Rowan Masala nods

Does speaking pause thought?

Prospero Frobozz: Kakrafoon
Threedee Shepherd: I guess that is what Zen means in suggesting trying by not-trying :D
Pia Iger: yes.
Threedee Shepherd: Kakrafoon ???
Prospero Frobozz: My brain makes random connections... I was thinking of the race in Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy that had people constantly talking, because if they stopped talking, their brains started working, and that was bad because they were all telepathic.
Prospero Frobozz: Human brains seem to be afraid of being quiet, as it were, always looking for something to latch on to and think about.
Rowan Masala: hmm--I'd forgotten about them
Rowan Masala smiles
Prospero Frobozz is well-versed in the classics
Threedee Shepherd: A quote from a book I read long ago: "birds fly, horses gallop, rabbits burrow, people think"
Prospero Frobozz: heh
Prospero Frobozz: yes
Pia Iger: at least we can start from not latch on anything in 9-sec. That is doable start.
Rowan Masala: by that argument, maybe reciting something during the meditation would clear our minds
Rowan Masala: I guess that's part of what mantras are about
Rowan Masala: and chanting
Threedee Shepherd: yes pia, it is important, I think, that it seems possible in the way 9-minutes does not.
Pia Iger: yes. i was introduced to a 9 min meditaion before, but I could not do it.

Fiona wandered through...

Rowan Masala: Hello Fiona
Rowan Masala: welcome
Pia Iger: 9-sec, I can. and it is already effective.
Fiona Teardrop: hello :)

And Pia suggested that we close for the night...

Pia Iger: (thinking maybe we should let Rowan get off her first shift earlier?)
Rowan Masala smiles
Rowan Masala: I didn't want to cut off the discussion
Pia Iger: Normally our session is about a hour.
stevenaia Michinaga: nice session Rowan
Pia Iger: the longest one is 6 hours. God. never again
Threedee Shepherd: yes, Rowan, thanks :)
Rowan Masala: good gracious!
stevenaia Michinaga: wow Pia, one of yours?
Pia Iger: not me, I would not let it happen.
Prospero Frobozz: Yikes
stevenaia Michinaga: gong
Pia Iger: so is this a good place to stop?
Adelene Dawner: 'night, guys
Rowan Masala: goodnight, Adelene
Rowan Masala: thank you all for being here