2012.03.24 13:00 - The Healing Power of Images in Dreams

The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray.

The comments and photos are by Bruce Mowbray. 

Attending:  Bruce, Kori, Zen, Zon, Adams.

What shall we do with powerful and disturbing images that wake us from deep sleep? 

Adams Rubble: Hello Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Adams!

--BELL--

Adams Rubble: Is this a singing session?

Bruce Mowbray: Well, not necessarily. The guitar is left over from this morning's session.... we were talking about (and listening to) songs by Joan Baez.
Adams Rubble: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Brought back a lot of half-century-old memories.
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh!
Adams Rubble: We knew we were right then and then never knew it again :)
Adams Rubble: has it been 50 years?
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers -- just about 50.
Adams Rubble: wow, 1962
Bruce Mowbray: I love your way of characterizing our way of viewing the world back then:
Bruce Mowbray: "We knew we were right, then never knew it again."
Bruce Mowbray: Some might call that "disillusionment" -- but I don't.
Adams Rubble: It rattles in my head
Bruce Mowbray: mine too, but now I feel that such head-rattling is a good thing to do.
Bruce Mowbray: Mine rattles quite loudly, actually.
Bruce Mowbray: rattling*
Bruce Mowbray: (wait a minute -- that's what I typed the first time.)
Adams Rubble: some naiveté is nice
Bruce Mowbray: also necessary --- how did Suzuki Roshi say it? "Zen Mind. Beginner's Mind"----
Adams Rubble: :)
Bruce Mowbray: non-judgmental mind.
Bruce Mowbray: non-cerebral mind.
Adams Rubble: or is it an open mind?
Bruce Mowbray: But such a way of viewing the world -- mind-rattling -- once one has attained "maturity" -- requires courage.
Bruce Mowbray: open mind, yes.
Bruce Mowbray: How about, "Available mind"?
Adams Rubble: I think I may be more open-minded now than I was then.
Bruce Mowbray: vulnerable mind?
Adams Rubble: yes!
Bruce Mowbray: I am definitely more so, yes!
Bruce Mowbray: and isn't that a good thing?!
Adams Rubble: :) yes
Bruce Mowbray: we have become courageous enough to be children again!
Adams Rubble: but not so easy to know you are right :)
Bruce Mowbray: Oh, I am less and less "sure" that I know that!
Bruce Mowbray: but I trust deeper wisdom to know what's "right"
Bruce Mowbray: I don't really feel a need to "know" - -
Bruce Mowbray: and would probably be quite incapable of handling the knowledge, if I did know.
Adams Rubble: :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Besides, I love the adventure of not knowing what's ahead.
Adams Rubble: Hello Korel :)
Bruce Mowbray: and even of not being too sure about what's behind! ;-)
Adams Rubble: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Warmest greetings to thee, Korel!

Korel Laloix: Heya
Korel Laloix: What did I miss?
Bruce Mowbray: We were sort of reminiscing about 50 years ago. . .
Korel Laloix smiles
Bruce Mowbray: . . . when we felt that we "knew" everything that needed to be known. . .
Adams Rubble: I was going to say 50 years. hehe
Bruce Mowbray: . . . and now that we realize that we actually "know" less and less. . .
Bruce Mowbray: and how good it feels NOT to know. . .
Bruce Mowbray: . . . and that, perhaps, it takes some courage NOT to know . . .
Korel Laloix: There are some things you are for sure better off not knowing.
Bruce Mowbray: for sure!
Korel Laloix: There are some things you just can't unlearn or un-see.
Adams Rubble sings The Times they are a changin'
Korel Laloix: Wish I could figure out how to wipe some memories.
Bruce Mowbray ponders "un-see" -- and loves that expression.
Bruce Mowbray would also choose to "un-see" -- but basically regards all experience as valuable. . . even though mightily painful, also.
Korel Laloix: Just some things I experienced that are now sort of attractive and consuming.
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Korel Laloix: Hard to get out of my system.... so wish I had not been introduced.
Adams Rubble: perhaps unpleasant memories may be something that is unresolved
Korel Laloix: No... very good memories... in some ways.
Bruce Mowbray: I have a sort of peculiar way of viewing - resolving - these things.
Korel Laloix: Ones that are perhaps too good.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray wonders how a memory could be "too good" . . . then pops up ideas about how it could.
Bruce Mowbray listens for more.
Korel Laloix: Well... some types of sexual experience I am particularly referring to.
Bruce Mowbray: "too good"?
Bruce Mowbray feels tinges of envy.
Korel Laloix: There are things I find, not sure the word.... alluring... that I also know find a bit disturbing.
Korel Laloix: But strong memories... good ones... keep me thinking of them.
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm... yes, we are complex and seemingly contradictory beings. . .
Korel Laloix: For sure.
Adams Rubble: Hello QT :)

Qt Core: Hi all!
Bruce Mowbray: Warm greetings to you, QT!
Korel Laloix: Heya
Qt Core: music night ?
Adams Rubble: Please excuse me as I slip back to RL
Qt Core: bye Adams
Adams Rubble: Take care everyone :)
Bruce Mowbray: We've been talking about memories -- and how some of them seem almost "too good" and also about "Beginner's Mind" -- availability of mind - without judgment of new images.
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Adams!!!
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Bruce Mowbray: May I ask a question, Korel?
Korel Laloix: Did not catch the part on Beginner's mind.
Korel Laloix: Sure.
Bruce Mowbray: I am not mining for details. . . (personal stuff), here, but....
Zon Kwan: hi
Bruce Mowbray: I am wondering whether the images of the memory are not more valuable to you than the interpretations/judgments of those images?
Bruce Mowbray: Can we just BE with the images themselves?
Bruce Mowbray: and let them do their magic/medicine?
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Zon! Warm welcome to you!
Korel Laloix: Will have to think about that.
Qt Core: Hi Zon 
Korel Laloix: I think the raw images affect me more.
Korel Laloix: If could filter them with interpretations, they may not have such a hold.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, thank you, Kori. . . .
Bruce Mowbray: It seems that you experience the power of the original images themselves....
Bruce Mowbray: (usually, folks have to rely on dreams to get at these images....)
Bruce Mowbray: they do indeed have a "hold"
Korel Laloix: I never remember my dreams.
Bruce Mowbray: But do they not also have incredible healing power?
Korel Laloix: Not at all... not healing memories.
Bruce Mowbray: Is this not, in fact, the basis of folks' interest in phenomenology? --- That staying with the original image is most valuable?
Bruce Mowbray: OK. I need to correct myself. . .
Korel Laloix: You have lost me.
Bruce Mowbray: I don't feel that the memories themselves are "healing..."
Bruce Mowbray: I am saying that the IMAGES are healing.
Bruce Mowbray: The memories are over-lain with all sorts of judgment and feeling. . . . etc.
Bruce Mowbray: but the IMAGES from those memories....
Bruce Mowbray: that is what's 'allowed' to appear in dreams....
Bruce Mowbray: and that's what is healing....
Bruce Mowbray: if we can just stay with them -- have the courage to stay with them,,,,,
Bruce Mowbray: Are you still "lost", Kori?
 Korel Laloix: Sort of... dreams lack meaning to me as I very rarely remember them.
Korel Laloix: And when I do, they are extremely negative.
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Korel Laloix: But that is just me.
Bruce Mowbray: OK.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I also almost NEVER remember them!
Korel Laloix: There are just things that I have seen and felt I can't get out of my memory and I wish I could.
Bruce Mowbray: It is the images in the dreams that I am referring to.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, perhaps we can all relate to that.
Korel Laloix: The images in my dreams are never healing.

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: At least the ones I remember.
Bruce Mowbray: In fact, there was a movie based on this principle: "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind."
Korel Laloix: I actually saw that... it was interesting.
Bruce Mowbray: But, which is more courageous? ---
Bruce Mowbray: facing the images as they are.... without interpreting them?
Bruce Mowbray: or ----- having them erased from our memories?
Korel Laloix: But a difficult question on what I would erase...
Korel Laloix: But it is tempting to think about.
Korel Laloix: I just realized something....
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
Korel Laloix: I am more interested in getting rid of the seductive good memories, but not the really bad abusive ones.
Korel Laloix: I wonder why that is?
Bruce Mowbray: Amazing realization, Kori!
Korel Laloix: Something for me to think about.
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: I will not presume to advise you,....
Bruce Mowbray: but as for myself....
Bruce Mowbray listens again.
Bruce Mowbray: May I offer something?
Korel Laloix: Please.
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks.
Bruce Mowbray: I have been writing (today) to an inmate friend,
Bruce Mowbray: who has shared a really terrifying dream,
Bruce Mowbray: in extreme detail.
Bruce Mowbray: A prisoner friend - doing 5 consecutive life sentences.
Bruce Mowbray: He was raped by authority figures in his private school -- from the age of seven.
Bruce Mowbray: He is now having dreams.
Bruce Mowbray: seeing himself in a dark box. . . as a baby . . .
Bruce Mowbray: with maggots crawling in his eyes...
Korel Laloix: Ooo... ick.
Bruce Mowbray: and he is sharing those images (from the dreams) with me.
Bruce Mowbray: yes, ICK!!!!
Korel Laloix: Disturbing.
Bruce Mowbray: I can hardly bear to read about it in his letters.
Bruce Mowbray: But here is the amazing thing!
Bruce Mowbray: He says he is being HEALED by seeing these images.
Korel Laloix: I hope that is the case.
Bruce Mowbray: This is EXACTLY what some depth psychologists are saying. . . .
Bruce Mowbray: and some phenomenologists are saying. . .
Bruce Mowbray: and some Buddhist sages are saying. . .
Korel Laloix: Wish I could experience that.
Bruce Mowbray: That, if we have the courage to stay with the image itself -- without judging it or interpreting it ---
Bruce Mowbray: that there is great healing power there.
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmmm.
Korel Laloix: My new shrink is trying to work on my dreaming with me.
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully -- and hopes not to interfere.. and wonders why therapists are so "hip" on dreams, anyway.
Korel Laloix: Just helping with some techniques to try and remember my dreams.
Bruce Mowbray: Do you feel that remembering your dreams would be a valuable thing to do?
Korel Laloix: I have so many issues that have not made much progress, I think she is just trying new routes with me.
Korel Laloix: No, but I am curious.
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: One suggestion, then?
Bruce Mowbray: When my marriage was collapsing, I had very powerful images in dreams....
Korel Laloix: When I went to my insomnia clinic, they noted how bad my dreams appeared to be by how physical I was in the dreams and what I tended to say.
Bruce Mowbray shuts up and listens once again.
Korel Laloix: lol... I am listening...
Korel Laloix: One of the reasons I come here.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Korel Laloix: Probably the main reason I come here.. to listen.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I had images of ocean liners swept up on shore...
Bruce Mowbray: and motorcycles that refused to start....
Bruce Mowbray: and lots of mechanical things that failed to work....
Korel Laloix: My battery is going to die soon, so if I just pop off, that is why.
Bruce Mowbray: I could not remember them all when I woke...
Bruce Mowbray: so, I took to recording the dreams on tape as soon as they woke me up....
Bruce Mowbray: I figured that any dream powerful enough to wake me was worth recording.
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: no problem, Kori.
Korel Laloix: I am trying to do that... have notepad at least ready to go... and first thing in the morning, I search for my dreams.
Korel Laloix: No luck as of yet.
Bruce Mowbray: Anyway, it is those images that I remember -- over forty years later.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: If they do not wake you, then . . perhaps it is not really necessary to remember them.
Bruce Mowbray: We have a sleeping "self" and a waking "self" -- and the two are not necessarily the same person with the same needs.
Korel Laloix: True, but when I wake the person I am sleeping with during my dreams... that is probably worth remembering.
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I agree.
Bruce Mowbray: You seem to already have reached a profound plateau of awareness with this --- acceptance of the dreaming self.
Bruce Mowbray: "the person I am sleeping with during my dreams...."
Bruce Mowbray: actually, an amazing realization, Kori.
Bruce Mowbray wonders how Qt is taking all of this in. . .
Korel Laloix: Not sure I understand or I was clear, I literally mean, the person I am sleeping with.
Bruce Mowbray: and here is Zon again!
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bruce Mowbray: Warm greetings, Zon!
Zon Kwan: ty
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Qt Core: listening and trying to relate it to my own dreaming
Bruce Mowbray: OK. I will shoot my whole load on this one....
Korel Laloix: lol
Bruce Mowbray: I am talking about the "courage" to hold the dream image itself....
Korel Laloix: OK
Bruce Mowbray: without having to interpret what it means.
Bruce Mowbray: JUST holding the image.
Korel Laloix: I would like to think dreams had meaning.
Bruce Mowbray: . . . which probably appears to us in dreams because it is SO DIFFICULT for us to allow it into our conscious minds.
Korel Laloix: But maybe they just have purpose.
Bruce Mowbray: Dreams DO HAVE MEANING. . . in the dream world. . .
Zon Kwan: and here too
Zon Kwan: they reveal
Korel Laloix: But do they in our daily lives?
Korel Laloix: Again, I wish I could have that.
Zon Kwan: what is hidden in us?
Bruce Mowbray: Unfortunately, when we insist that they also have meaning in the waking world, we interpret them to death - - - thus depriving the image of its healing power.
Qt Core: (I'm from the "dreams are just random images pulled together during the nightly brain defrag school")
Zon Kwan: gtg, see you
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Qt Core: or at least in most cases
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Zon.
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Qt Core: bye Zon
Bruce Mowbray: Zon seems to come and go the same way that he values (or de-values) the coming and going of dreams.
Korel Laloix: Over-analysis I think is usually worse than under-anaysis.
Bruce Mowbray: no judgment intended, Zon. Sry.
Bruce Mowbray: I totally agree with that, Kori!
Bruce Mowbray: Why is it so difficult for us to simply to let the image BE?
Bruce Mowbray: There is great power in the image.
Bruce Mowbray: There is actually great HEALING power in the image.
Bruce Mowbray: The image can make us "whole" again.
Bruce Mowbray: but we continue to fight/resist it.
Korel Laloix: 'CAN' is a key word.
Korel Laloix: The dreams I seem to remember make me miserable.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, "can" implies capability. . .

Bruce Mowbray: and skill. . .
Korel Laloix: I just need to sort that out for my brain.
Bruce Mowbray: and willingness. . .
Bruce Mowbray: It really is all right to be miserable... I have been there a lot!
Bruce Mowbray: It is not a fatal condition.
Bruce Mowbray: Suggestion: let the images sort it out for you.
Bruce Mowbray: You don't really have to do all the work.
Korel Laloix: wish there was enough there for them to sort some things for me.
Bruce Mowbray: Trust.
Bruce Mowbray: There is more than enough there, Kori.
Bruce Mowbray: You are the "product" of a very wise evolutionary lineage.
Korel Laloix: Perhaps, but I just don't remember it.
Bruce Mowbray: Your inner wisdom "knows" better than your later "conceptual" brain...
Bruce Mowbray: Trust me on this.
Bruce Mowbray: Your Native American traditions all say this.
Korel Laloix: I do think we are smarter on some things than we think.
Bruce Mowbray: YES!
Bruce Mowbray: We are indeed much smarter than we "know."
Bruce Mowbray: Trust the medicine circle.
Bruce Mowbray: Trust the medicine woman.
Korel Laloix: But much dumber on things on others... especially the ones we over-analyze

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Trust your own inner being.
Bruce Mowbray: Got to go now.
Korel Laloix: Take care.
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat.
Bruce Mowbray: THANK YOU FOR YOUR BRAVERY, dear KORI!
Qt Core: bye Bruce
Korel Laloix: Not sure what you mean.
Korel Laloix: But thanks.
Korel Laloix: Going to go to a SL powwow now.
Korel Laloix: Until my battery dies at least.
Qt Core: :) bye
Korel Laloix: ciao