The Guardian for this meeting was Agatha Macbeth. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth.  It was good to be back at my session for the first time in a while!  It seemed to divide itself neatly into two distinct sections....

         Part One - Snow

Agatha Macbeth: Hello Miss Fit Toy :)
Korel Laloix: Oh Heya... smiles
Korel Laloix: How are you today?
Agatha Macbeth: Fine thanks, back from the wilderness?
Korel Laloix: Oh yes... back in classes all this week...
Korel Laloix: Good mostly.
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Korel Laloix: Teaching one class.. well.. mostly teaching... but officially the Grad Student assistant.
Agatha Macbeth: Finding it easy or hard going?
Zon Kwan: heya
Korel Laloix: Well.. so much going on in my life that it is all going to be compicated.
Korel Laloix: Heya.
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zon
Agatha Macbeth: Life wouldn't be life without complications :p
Korel Laloix: GOod ones long term I think.
Mickorod Renard: hiya
Agatha Macbeth: Well, hopefully
Korel Laloix: Nothing that I can't handle so far.
Korel Laloix: Heya.
Agatha Macbeth: Micko :)
Zon Kwan: hi mick
Mickorod Renard: :))
Mickorod Renard: hi folks
Agatha Macbeth: Any snow where you are Mick?
Mickorod Renard: yeh, quite a bit
Mickorod Renard: what about you?
Agatha Macbeth nods
Agatha Macbeth: Not so much here thankfully
Agatha Macbeth: People still crowding into the shops like they are expecting an ice age tho
Mickorod Renard: he he
Agatha Macbeth: Silly
Korel Laloix: Clear and cool here.
Agatha Macbeth: Quarter of an inch of snow and everyone goes bananas...
Agatha Macbeth: Imagine if they lived in Russia
Catrinamonblue Resident: hello everyone :)
Mickorod Renard: yea, but they expect lots more
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Cat
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Mickorod Renard: hi Cat, hi Ara
Zon Kwan: hi ara
Agatha Macbeth: And know how to deal with it, yes
Zon Kwan: hi cat
Agatha Macbeth: Arababe :)
arabella Ella: Aggers! missed u lots!
Mickorod Renard: I am hoping I cant get to work tomorrow
Agatha Macbeth: You too babe
arabella Ella: snow mick?
Agatha Macbeth grins @ Mick
Mickorod Renard: yes
arabella Ella smiles
Mickorod Renard: yipeee
Mickorod Renard: gonna get my sledge out
Agatha Macbeth imagines Mick building a snowman
Agatha Macbeth: Does it ever snow in the Med Ara?
Mickorod Renard: I may take my snowboard up the hill
arabella Ella: it does not snow where i am Ags but we had horrible hailstorm a few days ago with lots of damage to property and crops and looked just like snow
Agatha Macbeth: Wow
Agatha Macbeth: Hail can be pretty scary
Mickorod Renard: when i lived on the Med it snowed
arabella Ella: and it is cold here tonight
Korel Laloix: Get it all the time here.
Korel Laloix: Hail that is.
Agatha Macbeth: I think Storm gets pretty big hilstones in Colorado sometimes
arabella Ella: you were further north in the med mick and that makes a huge difference
Agatha Macbeth: (I seem to have a dyslexic KB today)
arabella Ella: i got lag :(
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Mickorod Renard: yes, it had only snowed once during the years I was there,,but it was heavy and broke lots of tree's
arabella Ella: the hail here damaged cars and photovoltaic cells etc.
Agatha Macbeth: Ouch
  --BELL--1315
Mickorod Renard: photo what?
arabella Ella: he he
Agatha Macbeth: At least snow doesn't hurt when it hits
arabella Ella: sun energy stuff mick on roofs
Mickorod Renard: ahh
Agatha Macbeth: Sun power works in Malta, wouldn't work here :(
arabella Ella: still very expensive to install here
Mickorod Renard: I got stuck in a huge drift once in the mountains,,i was so cold and fatigued I nearly gave up and died
arabella Ella: owwwwwww
arabella Ella: dont give up yet Mick!
Agatha Macbeth: Where was that?
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: in the pyranees
Agatha Macbeth: Oh right, high up
Mickorod Renard: I went off course on snowboard and i sank into deep soft snow
arabella Ella: i'd love to visit the pyranees one day as that was the name of my gran's house here
Mickorod Renard: I tried to dig out but sank more and more
Agatha Macbeth: I think Xira is quite close to them
Mickorod Renard: nice
Mickorod Renard: its interesting the battle ones mind does to determine whether to survive or give up
Agatha Macbeth: Snow is pretty but can also be pretty dangerous
arabella Ella: i always say snow is fine as long as you are on vacation
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Agatha Macbeth: Or in the house, out of it
Agatha Macbeth: I guess hypothermia is the big danger
arabella Ella nods
Agatha Macbeth: Makes you want to go to sleep, which is fatal
arabella Ella: (not that i would know much about snow)
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Mickorod Renard: yes, hypotheria has an effect of making you conceed to death
Agatha Macbeth: Is anyone doing the 99 days thing?
Mickorod Renard: no
arabella Ella: emmmmm
Agatha Macbeth: I can never think of anything to actually *do*
arabella Ella: what do you have to do?
Agatha Macbeth: Do something for 99 days and write about it on the wiki
arabella Ella: does not sound right for me too much discipline!
Mickorod Renard: itsbut always had an excuse not to recomended to do something u wanted to do
Agatha Macbeth: https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Classes_and_Sessions/The_99_Days_project
arabella Ella: are u gonna do it ags?
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm doing a gratitude journal but because I'm not a guardian I can't post it on the wiki :)
Mickorod Renard: sorry,,typos
Agatha Macbeth: I can't think of anything :(
Catrinamonblue Resident: which is ok for me
Catrinamonblue Resident: me*
arabella Ella: what a pity Cat!
arabella Ella: would love to read your journal
Agatha Macbeth: I find it hard to keep anything up for 9 days, never mind 99
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh it's ok I'm enjoying reading how everyone else is doing
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe you could start a blog?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) I had a blog once but shut it down for a while
Catrinamonblue Resident: maybe it's time to revive it
arabella Ella: why not re-strart your blog then Cat?
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
arabella Ella: snap
Agatha Macbeth: Go for it
Catrinamonblue Resident: thing is it dealt with my journey through depression
Mickorod Renard: you could do,,about stopping smoking Ara
arabella Ella: he he
Agatha Macbeth: I'm sure many people would be interested!
arabella Ella: i'm an expert at that now Mick :)
Agatha Macbeth: WB K
Mickorod Renard: I could do,,not loosing my temper
Korel Laloix: Heya....
Korel Laloix: Bad crash.
arabella Ella: i would love to write a blog but not yet dont yet have enough time
arabella Ella: Hey Kori!
Catrinamonblue Resident: I found the blog didn't really take a lot of time
Korel Laloix: There are millions of blogs to read already... why start another one... smiles
Agatha Macbeth: Needs staying power....
Catrinamonblue Resident: it was good to be able to put things out
Catrinamonblue Resident: not keep them in
arabella Ella: well i think a blog could be therapeutic
Mickorod Renard: thats important Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: it was :)
arabella Ella: and it would be interesting to see whether it makes any impact too
Agatha Macbeth: A bit like confession perhaps?
arabella Ella: more like a diary of reflections
Catrinamonblue Resident: I met some very super people through my blog
Catrinamonblue Resident: good friends now :)
Korel Laloix: I keep daily jounrals.
Agatha Macbeth nods
Agatha Macbeth: That can happen :)
arabella Ella: nice
Agatha Macbeth: The art cof communication
Agatha Macbeth: -c
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Zon Kwan: waves
arabella Ella: bye Zon!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zon
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Zon
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Mickorod Renard: bye zon
Agatha Macbeth: No need to bow to us :p
arabella Ella: how have you been Ags?
  --BELL--1330
arabella Ella: and where is Wol tonight?
Agatha Macbeth: Oh I'm good
Agatha Macbeth: Wollie is still in Canada, father is ill :(((
Mickorod Renard: :(
arabella Ella: oh no so sorry to hear that
Agatha Macbeth nods
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh dear :(
arabella Ella: sad news then
Agatha Macbeth: Well, *hopefully* not
Agatha Macbeth: but keeping fingers crossed
arabella Ella: i only mean sad cos he is ill
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, right
arabella Ella: and tough on Wollie as she had a tough time the last time she was in canada too
Mickorod Renard: can Wol take the time from work ok?
Agatha Macbeth: Luck and Wol rarely go together it seems, sadly
arabella Ella: mmmm
Agatha Macbeth: Hope so mick
arabella Ella: Wollie deserves a lot more luck u r right Ags
Mickorod Renard: Wol has a lovely personality,,thats good luck
Agatha Macbeth: It must be hellishly difficult when you're so far away from your family like that
arabella Ella nods
Mickorod Renard: its good fortune that we have this form(internet) of commmunication now
arabella Ella: altho dont most Brits think family ends when one gets to one's 20s or so?
Mickorod Renard: sort of
Agatha Macbeth: Oh I dunno, think it depends on the individual
arabella Ella: maybe
arabella Ella: it is very different in small communities
Agatha Macbeth: In the Asian community here family is still hugely important i think
Agatha Macbeth: Whenever there's a wedding or funeral there isn't enough room for all the cars!
Mickorod Renard: I know what u mean though Ara, the trend in the uk is that when a family member marries and has children,,then that becomes its own sort of universe
arabella Ella nods
Agatha Macbeth: Wheels within wheels perhaps
Mickorod Renard: yes
arabella Ella: what does that mean Ags?
Agatha Macbeth: It's an old saying
Agatha Macbeth: Kind of a Russian doll thing I think
arabella Ella: mmmm
Mickorod Renard: like a fractalization of the original
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Mickorod Renard: he he
arabella Ella smiles
Agatha Macbeth: Ok, now I don't know what I'm on about any more :p
Agatha Macbeth tends to ramble sometimes
arabella Ella: shall we find a serios PaB suitable topic to discuss?
Mickorod Renard: not at all Ags,,I understand
Agatha Macbeth: Dunno what the topic *is*?
Mickorod Renard: sure
Agatha Macbeth: Or are
arabella Ella: we cud think of one quite easily
Mickorod Renard: go for it Ara
Agatha Macbeth: Go on then
arabella Ella: and tear it to shreds
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
arabella Ella: ok here goes ...

Part Two - Honesty

Mickorod Renard: eek
arabella Ella: drum roll
arabella Ella: the importance of always telling the truth
Agatha Macbeth: Talk about drum roll?
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Agatha Macbeth: Right
arabella Ella giggles
Mickorod Renard: I love that
arabella Ella: go for it Mick then
Mickorod Renard: I am almost hell bent on it
Agatha Macbeth: Well for starters is it important?
Mickorod Renard: not that I am a martyr
arabella Ella: has anyone here ever ticked 'I have read and understood the terms and conditions' when you have not read a word?
Agatha Macbeth: Of course!
Mickorod Renard: yes
Agatha Macbeth: All the time
arabella Ella: and ...
arabella Ella: if someone dearly beloeved cooks a meal for you and asks whether you like it what do you reply?
Agatha Macbeth: Well if you didn't nothing would ever get done
Agatha Macbeth: Oh I would like it regardless :p
arabella Ella: or if someone asks whether they are looking ok?
Mickorod Renard: I feel like a prat,,but its laziness that stops me performing the boring ritual
Agatha Macbeth: I find it very hard to say things which will hurt someone
Mickorod Renard: I often say I dont like what I have been given to eat
arabella Ella: mmmm
Agatha Macbeth: Picky Micky
arabella Ella: me too Ags
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Mickorod Renard: I find ways to say negative things nicely
arabella Ella: you do?
arabella Ella: how?
Agatha Macbeth: That is a talent Mick
Catrinamonblue Resident: everyone says what I'm going to say before I can type it :)
Mickorod Renard: well, by presenting the issue as my problem and not that of the one who has tried to be kind
Agatha Macbeth: Type faster Cat :))
Catrinamonblue Resident: there are ways and ways of saying things
arabella Ella: mmmm
Catrinamonblue Resident: hold compassion in your heart
Catrinamonblue Resident: and what you say
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Aph :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi aph
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Aph
arabella Ella: Hey Aph!
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello!
Aphrodite Macbain: Yayy indeed
arabella Ella: well to go into this a bit deeper i got yet another question for you all
Mickorod Renard: ok
Catrinamonblue Resident: k
Agatha Macbeth: Riiiight
arabella Ella: is it dishonest to save on paying taxes or to pay less than you ought?
Aphrodite Macbain: listens nervously
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: when it breaks the law yes
arabella Ella: Aph we are talking about honesty in the sense of telling the truth always
Agatha Macbeth: Well, not so much dishonest as a criminal offence :p
  --BELL--1345
Aphrodite Macbain: I stil say yes
Mickorod Renard: I think its dishonest,,but its still anoying to accept that many would consider you a fool to be honest
Mickorod Renard: oops
arabella Ella whispers ... BUT ... (soon)
Korel Laloix: Well, not paying taxes is also a form of civil dissobediance... so not just a black and white issue.
Zen Arado: 's current display-name is "Zen".
Catrinamonblue Resident: In Canada we have social services that are paid by the taxpayers. At one time I was on welfare and am so very grateful for that. Now that I pay taxes I pay them gladly hoping to help others who are in need
Zen Arado: Hi all
Catrinamonblue Resident: oppps sorry bell :_)
arabella Ella: here comes the BUT ...
Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Zen
Mickorod Renard: Cat,,thats beautiful
arabella Ella: Hiya Zen!
Agatha Macbeth waits for Ara's but
arabella Ella: would you then insist on only using people who you know pay their taxes if you needed someone to fix something in your home?
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
arabella Ella: or would you use 'black labour' if u know whatt i mean
arabella Ella: not legit
Korel Laloix: But it has been shown in consistant research that private charities are more efficient than government.
Mickorod Renard: I have worked in public service virtually all my life,,i have seen on a great scale how much help social welfare brings to the needy
Korel Laloix: So in a way, if you want to help, it is imoral to pay taxes.
Catrinamonblue Resident: I know people who work under the table and their quality of work is never on par
Catrinamonblue Resident: with those who are legit
Aphrodite Macbain: Theoretially we pay taxes so our needs are met
Zen Arado: I give cash to my cleaning ladies
Zen Arado: doubt that they declare it
arabella Ella: i give cash to my cleaning lady too Zen :)
Zen Arado: hmm maybe delete that
arabella Ella: he he
arabella Ella: too late
Agatha Macbeth doesn't have a cleaning lady
Catrinamonblue Resident: me neither :(
Mickorod Renard: one could say the majority of the education system is paid through taxes
Zen Arado: except public schools?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: although in some countries that label is diferent
Zen Arado: whci ironically are private
arabella Ella: remember our topic is honesty and truth telling
arabella Ella: so ... mmmm .... please keep to topic :)
Aphrodite Macbain: people in Sweden pay alot of taxes and they are reputedly the happiest country
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Mickorod Renard: I find that being hoonest stops an avalanch of dificult issues from eventually crashing down
arabella Ella: i doubt whether they are that happy up north Aph where their winter days are all darkness more often than not
Zen Arado: I thought they were a depressed nation
arabella Ella: me too Zen
Agatha Macbeth: But they find interesting ways to stay warm I believe ;-)
Zen Arado: heh off topic again
arabella Ella: ok question for Zen then pls ... shhhh .....
Zen Arado: gets worried
arabella Ella: how often do you tick the box which says 'I have read and understood and accept the terms and conditions ... etc.'?
arabella Ella: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: they are reputed to be- maybe they have a good time indoors
Zen Arado: never
Mickorod Renard: I read that a newer and all together more satisfactory way of measuring peoples happiness determined that equality and parity in well being/wealth is more important than traditional thoughts
arabella Ella: you dont tick it or you dont read the stuff?
Zen Arado: oh I tick it just don't read it
arabella Ella giggles
arabella Ella: and you Aph?
arabella Ella: be honest now pls?
Aphrodite Macbain: me what??
arabella Ella: here goes
arabella Ella: arabella Ella: how often do you tick the box which says 'I have read and understood and accept the ter,ms and conditions ... etc.'?
Agatha Macbeth: You Jane, me Tarzan
arabella Ella: do you read the stuff before ticking?
Mickorod Renard: maybe one way of determining this issue is asking why people prefer not to be honest?
arabella Ella: Aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: ahhh- after I have read it once, I dont do it again
Agatha Macbeth: Hello San
Mickorod Renard: hi San
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi San
Santoshima Resident: hello
Zen Arado: Hi San
arabella Ella: the thing is why do organisations go to the bother of putting together all the terms and conditions if no one reads them before ticking the box ... dishonestly!
arabella Ella: Hiya San
Mickorod Renard: also,,would you prefer to have friends that you know consistantly lie and make fraudulnt statements
Agatha Macbeth: I guess at the end of the day it's down to whether it profits us to be honest or not
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi San
Zen Arado: there's a funny sketch about that on Youtube by Eddie Izzard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbvwZ4LWeEc
arabella Ella: Mick I think if everyone were to be 100 percent honest there would be twice as many relationship break ups
Catrinamonblue Resident: then again maybe not Arabelle
Aphrodite Macbain: there are nice ways of speaking the truth
Mickorod Renard: the trouble is Ags,,,that in todays quick fix phsychology...profit is short sighted
Mickorod Renard: scuse spelling
Agatha Macbeth: MacDonalds of the brain you mean?
Mickorod Renard: yeh
Agatha Macbeth nods
Agatha Macbeth: Understood
Catrinamonblue Resident: relationships are hard work and require more than just love to keep it going. Honesty in a relationship is VERY important
Mickorod Renard: if folks were 100% honest they would make the right choice prior to having a relationship
Zen Arado: so much dishonesty with software and music and films illegal downloading
Aphrodite Macbain: yes trust and honesty
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
arabella Ella: then to those here to claim to ALWAYS be honest - have you never answered the question how are you? with I'm fine thanks when you were not fine at all but lousy?
  --BELL--1400
Agatha Macbeth: Oh yes, all the time
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have but only because I learned that people don't always want to know whats going on in your life
Catrinamonblue Resident: hard lesson
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Mickorod Renard: the question is vague,,and can be addressed as fine as one is not always 100% sick
Zen Arado: you have to know the exact truth before you can claim to be honest
Zen Arado: howabout when people revealy very little about themselves?
arabella Ella: yea also Zen
Catrinamonblue Resident: maybe honest isn't the right word then, in my opinion instead?
Mickorod Renard: that is just guarded
Zen Arado: I find that a bit dishonest if I reveal a lot about myself and others don't
arabella Ella: ehrm what about politicians and honesty?
Agatha Macbeth: Don't be silly Ara ;-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: those two words don't generally go together
Zen Arado: but it is withholding truth about yourself?
Mickorod Renard: we vote in dishonest people to do war with equally dishonest people from aroud the world
Mickorod Renard: he he
Zen Arado: the 'truth' isn't always clear
arabella Ella: so are there no honest politicians in none of the many continents we all come from?
Zen Arado: we have our own interpretations
Catrinamonblue Resident: well in our opinion it seems not
Agatha Macbeth: Probably not...
Mickorod Renard: the truth is even less clear if you expect the truth
Aphrodite Macbain: the truth isnt always simple
arabella Ella: this sounds funny but are dishonest politicians born or made that way as a consequence of them going into politics?
Catrinamonblue Resident: no Aph it seldom is
Zen Arado: if we all wrote an essay about Pab they would all be different
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Mickorod Renard: maybe their reality is diferent to ours
Catrinamonblue Resident: truth is a three edge sword, yours, mine and reality
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles at cat
Mickorod Renard: Zen,,they would still be truths if from people believing they are not being deceptive
Zen Arado: they twist 'interpret' what is going on to suit themselves. Don't we all do that?
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Zen we all do
Zen Arado: we have inbuilt biases
arabella Ella: yet another reflection - do ppl who consistently tell lies end up believing their own lies?
arabella Ella: (like politicians)
arabella Ella: maybe
Santoshima Resident: called 'delusion'
Agatha Macbeth: Probably
Zen Arado: oh yes
Mickorod Renard: but there is a diference between being honest and being opinionated
Catrinamonblue Resident: is there?
Mickorod Renard: I meant not
Mickorod Renard: sorry
Zen Arado: if you refuse to examine your beliefs isn't that being dishonest?
Mickorod Renard: well,,sort of meant
Mickorod Renard: erk
arabella Ella: what do you mean Zen ... examples?
Zen Arado: they might be wrong or outdated
Zen Arado: but maybe I don't want to know that
arabella Ella nods
Mickorod Renard: Zen,,examining life as a whole is what good people do,,idea's change over time
Zen Arado: my wife might be having an affair but I don't want to think about that
Zen Arado: etc
arabella Ella: ostrich mentality
arabella Ella: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: gtg guys
Zen Arado: 'truth' is a very shaky concept
Catrinamonblue Resident: see you later
arabella Ella: oh nice to see you Cat bye!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Cat, have fun
Zen Arado: byee cat
Santoshima Resident: bye Cat ~
Aphrodite Macbain: by cat
Zen Arado: as most concepts are when you look closely at them
Mickorod Renard: I dont think so Zen
Zen Arado: hope I didn't spoil discussion
arabella Ella: that is a HUGE philosophical statement Zen
arabella Ella: what is truth?
Agatha Macbeth: You enriched it Zen, as always
Zen Arado: exactly
arabella Ella: is there truth?
arabella Ella: where is the truth?
Zen Arado: I don't think so
Agatha Macbeth: And didn't mention duality once
arabella Ella: let's look for the truth
Zen Arado: any there would be are changing anyway
Zen Arado: they can be approximate working assumptions granted
Mickorod Renard: this could get silly,,cos someone could argue that we dont exist
Zen Arado: :)
Santoshima Resident: "truth and reconciliation" comissions in various countries
Santoshima Resident: these seem a good combination
Zen Arado: something is happening
arabella Ella: well could truth just be our own individual bundle of penceptions and beliefs?
Santoshima Resident: although perhaps outside what is possible to discuss here
Zen Arado: perhaps that is all we can claim
Zen Arado: :)
arabella Ella nods
Mickorod Renard: I would go for what u say Ara,,on the basis for having a discussion
Zen Arado: I tend to think that Ara..but also consensual truths
Santoshima Resident: yes
Zen Arado: a society has certain truths...it holds to be self evident
Zen Arado: heh
arabella Ella: what is a consensual truty? examples?
Zen Arado: that the earth isn't flat?
Zen Arado: certain 'commonsense' things
Mickorod Renard: I think we all must have a reasonable idea of blatent dishonesty and basic honesty
Zen Arado: they are so seemingly obvious we don't even question them
  --BELL--1415
Zen Arado: yes Mick..perhaps it is not adhering to the conventional truths
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i feel that society is loosing contact with what idealy we would see as honesty
arabella Ella: just imagine if each human being had a chip implanted which would light up if ever we said a lie?
Zen Arado: we are really talking about moral truths? So we are ascribing to one assumption already..that honesty is a good thing
Mickorod Renard: that wud be great
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe our noses might grow longer
Zen Arado: :)
arabella Ella: he he
Zen Arado: being gay is evil was a consensual truth not long ago
Mickorod Renard: the issue is,,in my opinion,,not so much with dealing with someone whom we lie to,,but with dealing with our inability to express and expose our tru motives and persona to others
Zen Arado: the difficulty is we like polarities
Zen Arado: truth/lie
arabella Ella: is it a humain trait to polarise stuff Zen?
Zen Arado: and it isn't as clear and straightforward as that
Zen Arado: I think so Ara
arabella Ella: war and peace
arabella Ella: friend or foe
arabella Ella: black or white
arabella Ella: yes or no
Zen Arado: if you ask me my opinion about something one day and then ask me the same question a year later I might give a different answer
Zen Arado: am I lying then?
arabella Ella: sounds (nearly) like a haiku
Mickorod Renard: maybe if some grey area's are discussed truthfully then maybe a concensus can be achieved,,but there are diferences in peoples wants
arabella Ella: consensus may be boring mick ... life is more colourful
Zen Arado: it would only be a token consensus
Zen Arado: we all have slightly different opinions
Mickorod Renard: one can live a colourful fantacy,,but some try and make out its real
Zen Arado: look at Britain and the common market..such a variation of opinions
Mickorod Renard: yes Zen,,but there are enough basic dishonesties that we can avoid the grey area's
arabella Ella: ah Zen ... shhhh ... like the US telling the Brits dont yoou dare leave the EU!
Zen Arado: extremes at either end of a spectrum?
Aphrodite Macbain: I have to be honest and say I am having a long IM conversation and feel rather bad for sitting here while I am doing this.
arabella Ella: no worries Aph
Santoshima Resident: why feel bad?
Aphrodite Macbain: So I will tiptoe away. This person is in a bad state.
Mickorod Renard: thats cool Aph
Zen Arado: shame on you Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Santoshima Resident: bye aph
arabella Ella: nice of you to help others Aph take care!
Zen Arado: kk byee Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: I wish I could have taken part - a good subject!
Mickorod Renard: bye Aph
Zen Arado: I always seem to relativize everything away don't I?
Mickorod Renard: what we have then is a conclusion that we may as well teach our children to lie and steal and be dishonest?
Zen Arado: shify character
Zen Arado: :)
arabella Ella: why Mick?
arabella Ella: no one here is saying we should be dishonest
Zen Arado: thery will pick up the values of us and our society
Agatha Macbeth: Take care Aph
Mickorod Renard: well,,I feel that there is a desire to avoid being honest
Zen Arado: if everyone lied in a society that is what they would do too
Zen Arado: is that valid?
arabella Ella: my concern is more with hurting others at times and i dont like to hurt other ppls feelings
Mickorod Renard: most do,,including me sometimes
Zen Arado: some societies do lie more than others I think
Mickorod Renard: i would prefer to hurt someone than lie to them
Zen Arado: don't they?
arabella Ella: could lieing be genetic?
Zen Arado: a psychopath wouldn't worry about lying I think
Mickorod Renard: as such that makes me avoid doing things that i may have to reveal and hurt someone
arabella Ella: mick if i knew someone did their best at something i would not wish to put them down if what they offered me was not exactly in line with my taste
Zen Arado: so honest is tied in with empathy?
Mickorod Renard: there is encouragement yes
arabella Ella: for me there is a link between honestly and empathy yes
arabella Ella: and also with trying to give people more self esteem
Zen Arado: bottom line is about not hurting
Zen Arado: others
arabella Ella nods
arabella Ella: (for me)
Mickorod Renard: i see in the school system now,,that we have convinced all kids to expect everything,,the truth is,,they wont get everything,,and the ones who dont work will get less
Zen Arado: so we can bend the truth so long as we don't hurt people?
Zen Arado: if it is for their own good?
Mickorod Renard: I dont like that idea Zen
Mickorod Renard: I prefer that there is no bending
Zen Arado: just exploring empathy idea
arabella Ella: only if it is for the good and does not cause any harm
Zen Arado: starting to sound utilitarian :)
Mickorod Renard: dishonesty always causes harm
  --BELL--1430
arabella Ella: like say if my friend came out with me on a friday night wearing an awful dress if i were to be honest i would ruin her evening
arabella Ella: and ruin her self esteem too
Zen Arado: JS Mill's Harm principle ;)
Mickorod Renard: tell her
Mickorod Renard: I would
arabella Ella: i would not
Mickorod Renard: is it not worse that she never learns and always looks horrible?
arabella Ella: it could just be a one off
Zen Arado: little white lies
Mickorod Renard: what when she eventually learns,,wont she feel a fool and that her friends have been patronizing?
Zen Arado: better than brutal honesty
arabella Ella: little white lies dont cause any harm ... they can have good effects at times with self esteem of others
Zen Arado: agree Ara
Mickorod Renard: I dont think I can say I am expert enough to guage the future effects of a white lie
Zen Arado: so empath and doing good more important than principles?
arabella Ella: isnt doing good a principle?
Zen Arado: but you can only act in the moment
Mickorod Renard: the issue is,,you havnt got the guts to tell them the truth
arabella Ella: and anyway telling a friend their dress is horrible - why should she believe me?
Zen Arado: yes but if you have a strict rule..I must never tell a lie...see what I mean?
arabella Ella: nothing to do with guts mick
Mickorod Renard: you would say that it isnt in your taste
Mickorod Renard: her choice
Mickorod Renard: it is about guts
Zen Arado: doesn't every husbamd face this..his wife asks suddenly..'do you like this dress?'
arabella Ella: @Zen ... Kant and duty and only doing to others what you would want others to do to you
Mickorod Renard: you dont want them to think you are bad
Zen Arado: I never liked Kant's rules
arabella Ella: no mick
arabella Ella: its not that mick
arabella Ella: with time i like kant
arabella Ella: he grew on me
Zen Arado: too liberal individualistic for me
arabella Ella: anyway i must go now nearly midnight here!
Mickorod Renard: my wife asks me,,she knows she will have an honest opinion from me
arabella Ella: goodnight everyone!
arabella Ella: bye!
Mickorod Renard: nite nite
Mickorod Renard: :)
Zen Arado: a lofty autonomous individual who can make his choices regardless of everything else
Zen Arado: nite Ara
Mickorod Renard: are you addressing me Zen?
Zen Arado: was addressing Ara
Zen Arado: but doesn't matter
Mickorod Renard: I offer choice,,always do,,but I give my answers honest from my heart,,whats the point otherwise
Zen Arado: do you always do the same thing?
Mickorod Renard: I try to,,I am far from perfect,,I am often wrong
Mickorod Renard: Zen,,I have to go
Zen Arado: I tend to think we are kind of forced into what we choose
Mickorod Renard: see ya soon
Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now Ara
Zen Arado: by everything that went before
Agatha Macbeth: Take care Mick
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zen
Korel Laloix: Ciao all.
Zen Arado: but better stop ranting :)
Zen Arado: byee Aga, Kori ;)
Agatha Macbeth: No, you rant very well :p
Agatha Macbeth: Take care
Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now K
Korel Laloix: Ciao