2013.01.19 19:00 - Groundlessess and attachment

The Guardian for this meeting was druth Vlodovic. The comments are by druth Vlodovic.

I was my FSM avatar

--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: http://www.venganza.org/
druth Vlodovic: nobody here, I wonder what that means?
Catrinamonblue Resident: it means that there is nobody here but us peanuts :)
druth Vlodovic: and pasta
Catrinamonblue Resident: with meatballs
Catrinamonblue Resident: no sauce?
druth Vlodovic: sadly,I'm from the reformed church
druth Vlodovic: weightwatchers
Catrinamonblue Resident: watching the waistline are we :)
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: the atken's chapter is just meatballs and sauce
Catrinamonblue Resident: us peanuts don't have to worry about waistlines
druth Vlodovic: natural hourglass shape
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: all natural

Dropping

Catrinamonblue Resident: Was reading back through old chat logs. I'm still struggling with the idea of dropping
Catrinamonblue Resident: for myself I find that I'm only ever just in the moment
Catrinamonblue Resident: and don't seem to have anything to drop
druth Vlodovic: I think it is more a matter os "stepping outside" and seeing where you are
druth Vlodovic: at least that's how I experienced it
druth Vlodovic: if you can manage to keep it up for a few hours at the 15 minute intervals you start realizing stuff
druth Vlodovic: like how subjective time sense is
Catrinamonblue Resident: like?
druth Vlodovic: sometimes the next drop seems like forever, other times you're going "already?"
druth Vlodovic: also it makes slices of your life
druth Vlodovic: each moment has it's own character and feelings
druth Vlodovic: that you don't really notice when you are "inside"
Catrinamonblue Resident: I guess I have to try a bit harder to "step out" and see whats around
druth Vlodovic: instead of thinking "drop" try imagining standing beside yourself and watching
druth Vlodovic: without prejudice
Catrinamonblue Resident: k
Catrinamonblue Resident: mmm that without prejudice could be hard
druth Vlodovic: takes practice
Catrinamonblue Resident: sigh..
Catrinamonblue Resident: something else to work on :)
druth Vlodovic: and if you ever start thinking you have it it probably means you don't :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't think I'll ever get it
druth Vlodovic: that is usually answered by some smart Alec saying "practice"
Catrinamonblue Resident: smart alec
druth Vlodovic: :)
druth Vlodovic: theory is good, and really my natural element, but there are a lot of things you need to experience to know

druth Vlodovic: and things you need to do a lot to get an understanding
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's hard to put the time in to practice

druth Vlodovic: hi Eliza
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Eliza
druth Vlodovic: you're looking very koi today
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Catrina and omg... are you the spaghetti monster?!?!?
druth Vlodovic: FSM :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: oh yes.... hahaha....
Eliza Madrigal: brilliant
druth Vlodovic: right now I'm the SSM though, these cushions are comfy
Eliza Madrigal: later can be the sleeping spaghetti monster....
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

Picking up dropping

druth Vlodovic: we're talking about the concept of dropping,and the practice of it
--BELL--
druth Vlodovic: I have to be careful, I live with a pasta freak
Eliza Madrigal: attachments are endless - I vow to drop them all
Catrinamonblue Resident: yummy
Eliza Madrigal grins
Catrinamonblue Resident: What I was stating earlier was that I have a hard time with the drops
Catrinamonblue Resident: Druth has been giving me a different way to look at it
Catrinamonblue Resident: saying*
Eliza Madrigal: would love to hear
druth Vlodovic: oh, I was just saying that for me it is often less a matter of dropping than of standing beside myself observing
druth Vlodovic: sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: that's interesting... getting objective distance from yourself?
druth Vlodovic: other times it's sort of like shucking off everything that is accumulating right now and continuing
druth Vlodovic: yes, seeing where I am and what I am doing
druth Vlodovic: sometimes if I have a hard time getting "into it" I actually ask myself those questions
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm so much in the moment that I have a hard time seeing beyond that, stepping outside myself

Harder than it sounds

Eliza Madrigal: the choice to do so seems much of the 'battle' to me
Eliza Madrigal: the choice to try, I mean
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I think that may be part of my problem
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm having a hard time trying, afraid I think of what Imight see

Eliza Madrigal: there is a bit of a difference in being in the moment on a speeding train rushing to the next thing, and being present with oneself in the moment perhaps
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I'm the rushing train :)
Eliza Madrigal: so slowing down a little may be a good step ... slowing one might be able to see that the train consists of many different cars all linked together that can feel overwhelming
Eliza Madrigal: hard to articulate but it was an idea that helped me
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Eliza Madrigal: maybe to love oneself one has to be able to drop oneself - refresh :)
druth Vlodovic: stop and look at yourself without fear
Catrinamonblue Resident: thing is I'm always afraid
Catrinamonblue Resident: fear drives my onward
Eliza Madrigal: do you feel like that... 'always' afraid in a generalized way?
Catrinamonblue Resident: more or less. I have anxiety and have had panic attacks
Catrinamonblue Resident: fear I think is the motivation behind both
druth Vlodovic: fear of... ?
Catrinamonblue Resident: that I don't know
druth Vlodovic: lol, usually the case
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: consider this:
Catrinamonblue Resident: listening
druth Vlodovic: the most effective horror movies take forever before you know what is going on
druth Vlodovic: the villan is always hidden, unknown
druth Vlodovic: and they suddenly gets less scary when you see them

Mind vs Heart
Catrinamonblue Resident: I know but going from logical knowing to emotional knowing is a big leap
Catrinamonblue Resident: One can understand logically that there is nothing to fear but emotionally fear is all there is

Fear

Eliza Madrigal: I'm less radical about that than I used to be... a few years ago I would have suggested diving right in to 'flash dropping' of a sort, but there is wisdom in fear sometimes...
druth Vlodovic: ??
Eliza Madrigal: I have a history with panic attacks also
Eliza Madrigal: and with anxiety
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: so true that calling the bluff is important...
Eliza Madrigal: as is validating the perhaps somewhat primal instincts that may be a bit too strong
Eliza Madrigal: (just my own take this second in time) lol
druth Vlodovic: please, go on
Catrinamonblue Resident: listening hard
Eliza Madrigal: I am thinking of what I went through in therapy...
Eliza Madrigal: when my therapist tried to lead me in relaxation
Eliza Madrigal: and painted a picture of layers of support...
Eliza Madrigal: and I really tried to believe in that picture
Eliza Madrigal: but something in me couldn't rest in it
Eliza Madrigal: a few years later, helped by therapy tremendously but still, hm... bothered by something deeply....

Groundlessness

Eliza Madrigal: I had been meditating a while and heard someone use the word "groundlessness"
Eliza Madrigal: so much clicked into place...
Eliza Madrigal: for me, someone telling me there was no support was liberating!
druth Vlodovic: falling off the cliff :)
Eliza Madrigal: a lot washed off my shoulders
Eliza Madrigal: but each of us has something like that I think
Catrinamonblue Resident: mmm that's how I have been feeling, kicked off a cliff and have to learn to open the parachute while falling
druth Vlodovic: or to enjoy freefall
Eliza Madrigal: rightfully scary
Eliza Madrigal: but yes may hold tremendous potential :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I know and understand logically that when I get to the other side of this it will have been worth it, I'll be a lot better
Catrinamonblue Resident: but getting from point a to b is hard
Catrinamonblue Resident: and fear is in the way

Catrinamonblue Resident: making me react in ways I would normally not do
Eliza Madrigal: "triggers unbound"

Attachment
druth Vlodovic: I wonder if this is related to the idea of "straightening hooks"
Catrinamonblue Resident: straightening hooks?
druth Vlodovic: removing attachment from your supports which prevent you from experiencing groundlessness
Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
Eliza Madrigal: Is it Nisargadatta... hm, someone said that the world is full of rings and the hooks are all ours
druth Vlodovic: I used to imagine hands instead of hooks, all I'd need to do is loosen my grip
Eliza Madrigal: nice*
druth Vlodovic: but it feels like fishhooks
Catrinamonblue Resident: I can't seem to do that, I keep tightening my grip tighter and tighter
Eliza Madrigal: each of the triggers may be a part of the train driving you on and around the things you want to face now
Eliza Madrigal: when did you learn to do that Druth?
druth Vlodovic: just an image that came to mind when i heard pema talking about "straightening hooks" I never learned it at all lol
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: I've got lots of hooks but I know the taste of what it feels like not to
Eliza Madrigal: hold on
Catrinamonblue Resident: I've never been able to let go,
Catrinamonblue Resident: there is that fear, I think part of it is fear of being alone but here iseems to be more than that
--BELL--

So what am I really?
Catrinamonblue Resident: fear of not liking who I am?
druth Vlodovic: or what you are capable of
Catrinamonblue Resident: ?
druth Vlodovic: I did a fair amount of experimenting in SL, doing things i was afraid i had the desire to do in RL
druth Vlodovic: turns out I didn't want to do things like that at all, I was just frutrated, and taking it out in my imagination
druth Vlodovic: turned out I can trust myself more than I thought I could
Eliza Madrigal ponders
Catrinamonblue Resident: wish I could trust myself
Catrinamonblue Resident: to let go and see what is there
Eliza Madrigal: seems you are amidst that process anyway... may do well to study it in a way
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I do seem to be in the midst of learning this despite the fear

Concentrating attention
Eliza Madrigal: like, in a panic attack if one can stop racing with the jumble of fears and think "heart racing" or "palms sweating" and pay attention to that, one thing can ease at a time

druth Vlodovic: is this sort of like meditation, where you focus your attention on one thing to free your mind?

Caring Hearts
Eliza Madrigal: does talking about it help?
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes and I'm afraid I have been using PaB this way even though I shouldn't
Eliza Madrigal: seems part of the gift of PaB
Eliza Madrigal: that we can get some distance... see ourselves, hear ourselves
Catrinamonblue Resident: kind caring hearts
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal nods Druth... like a body scan - so many tricks
Eliza Madrigal: :))

Dropping and holding

Eliza Madrigal: I went from one extreme to another I think...
Eliza Madrigal: dropping nothing for a long time then dropping everything
Eliza Madrigal: or thinking that I was
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: you mean you cut all ties?
Eliza Madrigal: in some cases
Eliza Madrigal: Once Stim said "sometimes dropping is just holding in a new way"
Eliza Madrigal: and that helped gentle my strategy a bit :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I like that
Catrinamonblue Resident: Eliza thank you so much for tonight. It has helped
Catrinamonblue Resident: I think it's time to get off to bed now so I'll bid you good night
Eliza Madrigal: most welcome, thank you very much
Catrinamonblue Resident: night Druth
Eliza Madrigal: best wishes
druth Vlodovic: 'night cat
Eliza Madrigal: Night
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: Night Druth, thanks for hosting and your insights
druth Vlodovic: thank you for sharing