2008.08.12 13:00 – Politics in the rain

 This chat was recorded by Quilty Bookmite. The comments are his.

I arrived early to give everything a chance to rez. For some reason it's raining but only in the PaB pavilion.

I went to wash the dishes in real life. When I came back Avastu was sitting next to me.

Quilty Bookmite: Hi Avastu. Sorry, I was away washing the dishes.
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Quilty Bookmite: How are you?
Avastu Maruti: well, and you?
Quilty Bookmite: As well as can be expected.

Wol drops in.

Quilty Bookmite: Hi Wol.
Quilty Bookmite: Anyone any idea why we seem to have this rather localised weather system?
Wol Euler: hello Quilty, Avastu.
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Wol Euler: weather?
Wol Euler: ah, the rain.
Quilty Bookmite: It's raining.
Wol Euler: hmm, Gaya has a rainmaker, perhaps she set it on and forgot it?
Quilty Bookmite: Not that I'm complaining. It's a nice change. :-)
Wol Euler smiles
Wol Euler: you#re looking very formal today, Quilty.

I'm dressed in formal Victorian garb with a stovepipe hat.

Quilty Bookmite: Steampunk. :) I've been up to New Babbage.
Wol Euler: ah ;-)
Quilty Bookmite: Again it makes a nice change from my usual jeans and t-shirt.
Wol Euler admires. Lookin' good.

in a private conversation Wol lets me know that my shoes are a little small for my feet and that my feet are sticking out the sides. Not a good look. Later on I stretch the shoes a little to fit.

Quilty Bookmite: Apart from the shoes. :-)
Wol Euler: lol
Quilty Bookmite: The hat took some adjusting. Probably still needs a bit.
Quilty Bookmite: I'm a bit of a fan of I K Brunel.

My hero, Isembard Kingdom Brunel, one of the great engineers of the Victorian era, had a liking for stovepipe hats.

Wol Euler: ah
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Tahuti.
Wol Euler: I'm slightly surprised taht the hat doesn't smoke or project cannonballs or someting ...

Tahuti arrives

Tahuti Thor: hey hello
Wol Euler: hi tahuti
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Tahuti Thor: hello everyone
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Quilty Bookmite: I think that would be more Moons area. :-)
Wol Euler: lol
Wol Euler: well much steampunk stuff does do that ...
Wol Euler: steam and all, y'know.
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. I just wanted to go for the basic Victorian for now. :-)
Tahuti Thor: is it snowing n here
Wol Euler: rain actually :-)
Quilty Bookmite: I'm actually more a fan of Victorian engineering than steampunk.
Tahuti Thor: o i c
Wol Euler: Storm and Gaya have rainmakers, one of htem probably left it runninng here.
Wol Euler admires Tahuti's robe. New? :-)

Pia approaches

Quilty Bookmite: Hi Pia.
Tahuti Thor: yes
Quilty Bookmite: Hasn't rezzed for me yet.
Tahuti Thor: so u walk anywhere in zen area and its raining?
Pia Iger: wow, raining hard outside.
Wol Euler: I think it's localized, 20 metres or so IIRC.
Quilty Bookmite: If you're not there is it really raining?
Wol Euler: yes, it stops at the bridge.
Wol Euler: hi Pia
Tahuti Thor: hi Pia
Pia Iger: and raining through the roof, too. Cool!
Pia Iger: Hi, everyone:)
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Quilty Bookmite: Does anyone have a particular subject for today?
Quilty Bookmite: Nearly said "tonight" but of course it isn;t for everyone.

Tahuti had disappeared and reappeared. Probably a crash.

Quilty Bookmite: WB Tahuti.
Wol Euler is more in a sitting-and-listening mode today.
Tahuti Thor: ty
Pia Iger feel peaceful, too.
Quilty Bookmite: Must be the rain.
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: I like a change from the perpetual sunshine of SL.
Quilty Bookmite: Can I ask a technical SL question?
Wol Euler: If I had a sim I'd make it rain buckets every day, like in Rashomon.
Wol Euler: sure :-)
Quilty Bookmite: How do you express a feeling in chat rather than just talking, such as "Wol Euler smiles"?
Wol Euler: ah! easy :-)
Wol Euler: just start the line with "/me"
Quilty Bookmite: Ah.

So I give it a try...

Quilty Bookmite gets it now.
Wol Euler: like "/me nods"
Wol Euler: right!
Quilty Bookmite: Thanks very much. :-)
Wol Euler: it's a cheap trick but very effective
Wol Euler grins
Avastu Maruti is amazed!
Quilty Bookmite: Indeed. I've been searching the help text trying to find out how to do it. :-)
Wol Euler giggles
Quilty Bookmite wants to know if his hat is on fire
Pia Iger: simple trick, very expressive tool.
Avastu Maruti wants to set it on fire

Avastu seems to have a strong desire to commit arson on my hat and tries several times.

Wol Euler tosses a book of matches to Avastu
Quilty Bookmite: Feel free. I'm sure the rain will put it out. :-)
Quilty Bookmite catches matches on their way
Wol Euler: awwww

I take the hat off for now to remove temptation. Underneath I am completely bald because for some reason I can't wear this hat and my hair at the same time.

Quilty Bookmite: There. No more hat. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: Now I need to put my hair on.
Quilty Bookmite: Better, except my head is getting wet now. :-)
Wol Euler: warm it at the flames

In front of me is a small fire.

Quilty Bookmite: Where did the fire come from?
Avastu Maruti grins

Tahuti has what seems to be a serious question. Makes a change from my ramblings.

Tahuti Thor: anyone came to conclusion that our thoughts and feelings are unreal or maybe more appropriate to say unsubstantial ?

I put my hat next to the fire.

Quilty Bookmite: There. That'll dry it out. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: Was this a previous chat? I don;t think I was at that one.
Tahuti Thor: no i dont think so
Pia Iger: Tahuti, I discovered that unrealness recently, too.
Tahuti Thor: to Quilty Bookmite as an Observer, feelings are feelings and thoughts are thoughts
Pia Iger: but I can't say all thoughts and feels are unsubstantial.
Wol Euler smiles a welcome to Gaya.
Tahuti Thor: explain
Quilty Bookmite: Insubstantial sounds quite obvious. They have no form so of course they are insubstantial.

I'm probably being a bit pedantic here about the word "insubstantial" which means having no substance, in other words no physical form. I'm curious to know what is really meant here.

Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Quilty Bookmite: hi Gaya.
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Pia Iger: Hi, Gaya
Wol Euler: Are they less substantial than my perception of "reality" is?
Pia Iger: not just because they don't have form
Wol Euler: I percieve both.
Tahuti Thor: hi Gaya

I try and get a definition.

Quilty Bookmite: What is the difference between having no form and being insubstantial?
Pia Iger: 'Insubstantial" is in sense of less consequential than we thought, or illusional; as Avastu would say, it is dream-like, unreal
Tahuti Thor: what i mean is not to be taken seriously
Quilty Bookmite: Thoughts are just a series of neurons firing in the brain. From that perspective they aren't real.
Pia Iger realize much of my own thoughts and feelings are 'made-up", 'make believe'

And Tahuti comes up with a completely different question.

Tahuti Thor: my real question is from here.........what to say about politics?
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. Quilty Bookmite made them up Pia. :-)
Wol Euler: my reading your words is neurons firing in my brain.
Quilty Bookmite: Yes.
Tahuti Thor: can and do spirituality and politics mix ?
Pia Iger: or 'Insubstantial" in the sense they are not grounded in reality.
Quilty Bookmite: I'm not sure what that means.

So I wonder if Tahuti is trying to divert us from his original question.

Quilty Bookmite: Tahuti, you would rather change the subject?
Tahuti Thor: ?

Isen arrives.

Isen Enzo: whew
Wol Euler: hello Isen
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Isen
Tahuti Thor: we all agreed that thoughts and feelings are dream-like
Avastu Maruti: hello again, my friend
Pia Iger: politics is included in the whole picutre, IMO.
Tahuti Thor: hi Isen
Isen Enzo: rainy here...
Tahuti Thor: from there, what to say about politics
Pia Iger: Hi, Isen
Quilty Bookmite: Politics can't be dismissed lightly. It impacts peoples lives in very real ways.
Tahuti Thor: people have religious views, political views, etc....how serious to take our own views?
Tahuti Thor: after all, views are thoughts and feelings
Quilty Bookmite: On the other hand to have a view Quilty Bookmite need to participate in a bit of duality. :-)
Isen Enzo: It's always a pleasure to give others the benifit of my opinion...
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Wol Euler: :-P
Gaya Ethaniel: Pleasure is all mine in fact Isen when I hear your opinions
Gaya Ethaniel: ah! no worshipping :P
Isen Enzo: politics is hard.
Isen Enzo: are hard?
Pia Iger: is.
Isen Enzo: thanks
Isen Enzo: Quilty Bookmite said it!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Isen Enzo: I am a has-been small town politician!
Isen Enzo: yes.
Tahuti Thor: are all spiritual people humanists ?
Quilty Bookmite: Now I'm going to have to look up humanist. :-)
Isen Enzo: in a Bodhisattva way, I suppose....
Isen Enzo: although, really it includes all sentient beings- not just humans...
Wol Euler doubts that _all_ of any category ever belong to any other category.
Isen Enzo: I think it really involves everything in the entire web of life..
Isen Enzo: rocks..
Isen Enzo: gas..
Isen Enzo: the works

I have been running up my browser to look up Wikipedias definition of Humanism. It takes a while with SL eating most of the memory but Isen seems impressed anyway.

Quilty Bookmite: Wikipedia: Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities — particularly rationality.
Tahuti Thor: so, we have to encompass the entire web of life before we rationalize n this duality
Isen Enzo: quick referencing!
Tahuti Thor: ?
Quilty Bookmite: I'm not sure all spiritual people would believe that.
Quilty Bookmite: Personally I would. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: I don't think it fits with "original sin".
Isen Enzo: omg
Isen Enzo: omb
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: huh what's omb Isen?
Quilty Bookmite: Oh my bod?
Isen Enzo: oh
Isen Enzo: my
Isen Enzo: buddha
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: I knew it
Gaya Ethaniel: wow... so funny
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Quilty Bookmite: bod was a character on a childrens program in the UK. I thought that's who you were referring to. :-)
Isen Enzo: I like that..
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Isen. That was my first real laugh today
Wol Euler: hello Solo
Isen Enzo: Yo Solo!
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Solobill Laville: Hello, all
Pia Iger: Isn't it hard to speak for 'all spiritual people'? It would be more sense to speak on our own personal level.
Quilty Bookmite: hi Solobill
Tahuti Thor: hi Solo
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes it can be hard Pia
Pia Iger: hi, Solo
Tahuti Thor: true @ Pia
Isen Enzo: I don't regard myself as a "spiritual" person...
Gaya Ethaniel: I have to focus on 'reading behind words' they speak so real-time conversation can be difficult for me
Isen Enzo: trying more to be "practical" person...
Quilty Bookmite: I gues I read spiritual as religious. :-)
Tahuti Thor: my guess is in spiritual life u on your own .......as to your liberation....regardless of what happens in the world and all its madness
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't have that difficult with all 'spiritual' or 'religious' people thou
Gaya Ethaniel: all depends...
Tahuti Thor: and whereever your location happens to be
Isen Enzo: I only thing of "religious" as in - "she practices it religiously"....
Isen Enzo: Heavy definitions here..
Solobill Laville: uh oh, raining...
Isen Enzo: reaching my load limit..
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Tahuti Thor: this of course is an interpretation that defines spirituality as freedom of the mind/soul.......and not necessarily politically freedom
Gaya Ethaniel: Apologies for the rain. It's been stuck since this morning
Wol Euler: aha! I thought it might be yours.
Quilty Bookmite: Well, at least your fish is happy. :-)

Gaya has a fish swimming round her enjoying the rain.

Gaya Ethaniel thanks Quilty
Solobill Laville: Just out of curiousity Tahuti, where does that interpretation come from? :)
Quilty Bookmite: Actually I like the rain. Nice change from all this sunshine.
Solobill Laville: Or is that more of a paraphrase?
Tahuti Thor: my own thoughts
Quilty Bookmite: And as a Brit it feels like home. :-)
Solobill Laville: OK, thanks!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'are you really from UK Quilty !'
Tahuti Thor: was askin earlier does spirituality and politics mix
Isen Enzo: It's really hard to mix..
Gaya Ethaniel feels at home with rain too
Wol Euler: mu. IMHO
Quilty Bookmite: Yes Gaya.
Pia Iger: what do you mean mix? I don't think they are totally separated.
Isen Enzo: yes.
Quilty Bookmite: What about the monks in Burma? They certainly seem to get involved in politics.
Tahuti Thor: u can politic but dont get attached?
Isen Enzo: maybe
Gaya Ethaniel: It's a hard juggling act imo... take Dalai Lama
Quilty Bookmite: But it seems to me that what they are doing is getting involved in human life.
Isen Enzo: lots of false friends and real enemies in politics..
Gaya Ethaniel thoughts monks are humans?
Wol Euler: a nice phrase, isen.
Isen Enzo: strue
Isen Enzo: tough neighborhood!
Quilty Bookmite: I mean that sometimes politics gets so intense that it needs intervention.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Tahuti Thor: true
Isen Enzo: lots of base interests in politics..
Isen Enzo: not enough higher interests..
Isen Enzo: less loft.
Isen Enzo: mostly money
Isen Enzo: and power.
Isen Enzo: maybe samesame
Quilty Bookmite: That sounds like a political viewpoint Isen. :-)
Isen Enzo: yup
Quilty Bookmite: So it's almost unavoidable. :-)
Isen Enzo: money and power?
Quilty Bookmite: Politics
Isen Enzo: yes
Isen Enzo: Politics everywhere- even monastic settings...
Wol Euler smiles
Pia Iger: in family tool
Pia Iger: too.
Delani Gabardini is Offline
Quilty Bookmite: I have a new manager at work. One of the first things he said to the group was that he doesn't do politics.
Isen Enzo: hm
Quilty Bookmite: Meaning office politics of course.
Isen Enzo: where's our referenceairian?
Isen Enzo: "politics"
Wol Euler: and in nature, if politics = power. Each wolf pack has its alpha dog, each dairy herd has its lead cow
Quilty Bookmite: one sec...
Quilty Bookmite: Politics is the process by which groups of people make decisions.
Isen Enzo: ahh..
Quilty Bookmite: "The term is generally applied to behavior within civil governments, but politics has been observed in all human group interactions, including corporate, academic, and religious institutions."
Isen Enzo: this is great..
Isen Enzo: having a referencearian...
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Solobill Laville: Politics is a bit more that just = power, though...
Pia Iger: that is a broad definition
Quilty Bookmite: Anyone can use Wikipedia. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: I think the power comment was more of a comment on the nature of politics than a definition.
Tahuti Thor: like Aristotle said (or someone else) man is a political animal......but........the real question is what motive and purpose do u have underlying your decisions, actions and commitments
Quilty Bookmite: Sorry Isen, you said it. I could be misinterpreting.
Isen Enzo: yes, but money and power are a strong component of government politics..
Tahuti Thor: everyone is a political animal to some degree
Isen Enzo: yes.
Solobill Laville: yes and yes
Isen Enzo: as we are social..
Solobill Laville: and another yes for good measure
Quilty Bookmite: It's part of normal human social interaction.
Isen Enzo: it follows that we try to organize..
Isen Enzo: some try to organize for harmony, others for gain..
Isen Enzo: base gain.
Tahuti Thor: right
Tahuti Thor: and that is where the problem begins
Quilty Bookmite: And those that organise for base gain tend to float to the top?
Isen Enzo: Ashoka tried to organize for more lofty gain-
Quilty Bookmite: We have a few "honest" politicians in this country but I have to say they seem to be a dying breed.
Solobill Laville: yes, but I'm sure Ahoka played politics too, to get things done
Solobill Laville: *s
Isen Enzo: It's a group thingie..
Isen Enzo: and how it is organized..
Isen Enzo: here (US) its like 'crips' and 'bloods'...
Solobill Laville: Perhaps we should define "thingie" ;)
Isen Enzo: polarization is codified
Isen Enzo: majority/minority
Quilty Bookmite: Don't understand "crips" and "bloods".
Matheus KaizenGames: seu bando de troxa
Tahuti Thor: the group thang is the problem
Isen Enzo: gotta choose..
Tahuti Thor: attachment to groups
Isen Enzo: the group organization thang is the problem..
Wol Euler: urban gangs, quilty. blood feuds
Isen Enzo: so many try to game a system..
Wol Euler: hello metheus
Quilty Bookmite: I see.
Wol Euler: *matheus, sorry
Isen Enzo: be true to their school..
Isen Enzo: show the colors.
Delani Gabardini is Offline
Quilty Bookmite: It seems that if you want to rise to the top you need to keep a lot of people happy. That means letting go of any principals you may have.
Tahuti Thor: its ok to join a group temporarily to get somethin done......but u dont attach yourself forever to that group
Delani Gabardini is Online
Isen Enzo: and gangs discourage outside activity/action/thoughts..
Tahuti Thor: u get in and get out
Gaya Ethaniel: Hm... I don't make such advance decision at each moment... because mostly I don't know how things will pan out Tahuti

I glance across and two participants are wearing oriental style wide hats. Very effective for keeping the rain off. I put my stovepipe hat back on.

Quilty Bookmite is joining the hat gang
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Solobill Laville: oops, just took mine off, looked a bit too much like the mean Kung Fu wanderer-type
Gaya Ethaniel laughs

Again Avastu wants to set fire to my hat.

Avastu Maruti gave Quilty Bookmite Flame.
Pia Iger: so what is motive behind the gang/group, or power play?
Tahuti Thor: some join gang for protection in community
Quilty Bookmite: Thanks Avastu. I'll burn my hat later. :-)
Pia Iger: isn't it fear sort of?
Wol Euler: yes, the leaders have a very differnt motivation to the "grunts".
Tahuti Thor: yes, fear
Wol Euler: brb, sorry
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Wol
Quilty Bookmite: Most people don't want the burden of making decisions for themselves.
Quilty Bookmite: Maybe they don't trust themselves.
Tahuti Thor: peer pressure, family has gang history, etc.
Quilty Bookmite: Also, they want to fit in and not be an outsider.
Pia Iger: sounds like a lot of attachments...
Quilty Bookmite: That's humanity for you. :-)

Avastu departs and soon so do most of us.

Avastu Maruti: good bye my friends
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Solobill Laville: Bye, Avastu
Quilty Bookmite: Goodbye Avastu.
Wol Euler: bye avastu
Gaya Ethaniel: Solo leaving?
Solobill Laville: Yes, bye all!
Pia Iger will join next time. bye for now.
Wol Euler: bye solo, take care.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Quilty Bookmite: Bye.
Quilty Bookmite: I suppose I should call it a night.
Quilty Bookmite: I need to go and dry out.
Gaya Ethaniel: Same here
Tahuti Thor: ok
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Tahuti Thor: have a nice day :)
Wol Euler: goodnight quilty
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Quilty Bookmite: Goodnight all.
Gaya Ethaniel: Isen nice to see Quilty Bookmite again. Good day
Wol Euler: bye tahuti, bye sleeping isen
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_