2008.08.13 19:00 - Mindfulness and orientation

The guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden and the comments are hers.

When I got to the Pavilion Steven, Rowan, Threedee (as a lion), and Adelene (as a long-tailed dragon)are already there and Rowan is just joining the group. My visual attention was captured by the dragon and the lion avatars.

stevenaia Michinaga: hello rowan

Rowan Masala: hi Steven

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Maxine

Rowan Masala: Hi all

Rowan Masala: Hi Adelene

Threedee Shepherd: hello rowan, maxine and the newest Av of Adelene!

Adelene Dawner: hi :)

Adelene Dawner is celebrating having figured out what Pema 'is'.

Rowan Masala: really?

As the guardian I set preferences to try to make the chatlog aspect easier. Meanwhile others are speaking about Adelene's rather impressive dragon av

Maxine Walden: hi, all, sorry, setting preferences

Rowan Masala: what is Pema?

Threedee Shepherd: np

Adelene Dawner: A dragon - I'm immitating him.

Rowan Masala: ahhh

stevenaia Michinaga: haha,

Adelene Dawner: Haven't fixed thie av up with proper ears yet though.

Adelene Dawner: ^^

stevenaia Michinaga: why do you say that, looks more elvish in his pics

Feeling a bit behind the others I then choose a seat next to Threedee as lion

Maxine Walden: can I sit next to the liion?

Threedee Shepherd: looksa more like insect whiskers now

Threedee Shepherd: pls do

Maxine Walden: hi, Adelene, quite a dragon!

Adelene Dawner: Hey, it was a 10 minute mod and I scripted it, give me a break ^^

Rowan Masala: I've gotta restart--brb

stevenaia Michinaga: ok

Friedrich Ochsenhorn is Online

stevenaia Michinaga: very nice work

Maxine Walden: quite stunning

stevenaia Michinaga: for 10 minutes

Adelene Dawner: Thanks :)

stevenaia Michinaga: took me years for this look

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hi guys

Adelene Dawner: It helps to know good places to shop, and I've worked with this av style before on my other account. ^^

Adelene Dawner: I have one of these in *rainbow*. Quite a thing.

Threedee Shepherd: Hi Friedrich

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: luck dragon?

Maxine Walden: hi, Fred

Maxine Walden: I suppose, a rainbow dragon, really nifty

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: nice. reminds me of the dragon in Neverending story

Adelene Dawner has figured out what kind of creature Pema is, and is celebrating by immitating him. ^^

Adelene has just mentioned an intriguing thing, her perception of the creature Pema, as a dragon. And quite apparently she has been very impressed with his visage and has gone to considerable lengths to imitate it

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Freidrich

Maxine Walden: what kind of creature is Pema, Adelene?

Adelene Dawner: An eastern dragon, like this.

stevenaia Michinaga: thought you were having diner with pema tonight?

Adelene Dawner: nope. Yesterday lunch.

Threedee Shepherd: Evening Tahuti

Fred then asks a pertinent question which is not really taken up directly as threads of the previous conversation continue

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: aha. i wonder what species of magical creatues everyone in the room associates themselves with

Maxine Walden: eastern dragon!

Tahuti Thor: hello

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: yes - I met Pema and Genesis and Clair tonight for dinner!

Tahuti Thor: evening

Tahuti Thor: : )

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: great fun, great food, great conversation - quite a lovely night

Threedee Shepherd: I'm jealous :)

Maxine Walden: wonderful!

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: c'mon out anytime!

Threedee Shepherd: A long drive from Colorado :D

As I think about it, I believe the conversation then reflected the sense of crossroads many were having in terms of RL meetings, often over a meal, with Pema, whom we all acknowledge as in a significant leadership role.

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: not only is nyc a microcosm of hte world, but its also at the crossroads.

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: whenever you are on your way anywhere you can make your way though

Maxine Walden: crossroads of the world? NYC?

Threedee Shepherd: I grew up--long ago--in NYC (The Bronx)

Adelene Dawner liked NYC to a surprising degree, except by taxi - that was a bit much.

But now we get another aspect of a crossroads experience, the invitation to teleporting/subway/elevators which can be disorienting

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: heh. I find the subways to be a bit like TP'ing

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: you just pop up somewhere new.

Adelene Dawner: :)

Rowan re-joins us having to reboot.

Maxine Walden: hi, Rowan, welcome

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: Hi Rowan

Rowan Masala: thanks Maxine

Rowan Masala: hi Friedrich

Threedee Shepherd: I have always imagined small children perceive an Elevator much like TPing

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: some big children too ;-)

The topic of small children and their sense of such as an elevator comes into the conversation

Maxine Walden: that child in all of us...

Threedee Shepherd: Just imagine, you are a small kid. You saw people go in. Next time the door opens its EMPTY and your parent want YOU to go in. sure

Tahuti Thor: bbl

Maxine Walden: wow, yes, rather fearful

Maxine Walden: right, Tahuti

Rowan Masala: when I lived in LA, there was an installation at the Museum of Modern Art

Rowan Masala: it looked like an elevator

Rowan Masala: and you pushed the button, and went in it

Rowan Masala: and there was an up button and a down button

Rowan Masala: but all it did was make an ascending or descinding noise

Rowan Masala: it never moved

Maxine Walden: disappointed?

Rowan Masala: no--intrigued

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: heh. or so you think. perhaps you ended up in an alternate universe

Rowan Masala: indeed!

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: how would you know?

Rowan Masala: very true

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: that's disconcerting

And the sense of an enclosing box without controls brings the image of entrapment into the room, at least for Rowan

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: some new elevator systems make you dial your floor from the lobby, route you to an elevator, and they have /no/ buttons inside

Rowan Masala: wow

Rowan Masala: I would feel so trapped

Rowan Masala: why do they do that?

Threedee Shepherd: In doentown Denver there is no subway. But on one block, the gratings have subway noises coming out.

stevenaia Michinaga: it;s more efficient

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: its more efficient? they group passengersgoing to similar floors together

Rowan Masala laughs

Maxine Walden: maybe the strand of our not knowing is common to all of us and PaB

Rowan Masala: that's hilarious about Denver

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i hvae to say, elevator rides are prime PaB time for me

Maxine Walden: make believe subway for a block?

Threedee Shepherd: umhmm

Adelene Dawner: This reminds me a bit of when I first moved to NJ from Pennsylvania.... we had a Target store in both towns... I went into the Target here for the first time, was *exactly* the same inside... I was extremely disoriented when I left and was in NJ, not PA.

Pema than joins us.

Rowan Masala: hi Pema

stevenaia Michinaga: true, the 9 floor moment

Maxine Walden: hi, Pema, good to see you

Pema Pera: Hi everyone! Can't stay long, but just wanted to say hi

stevenaia Michinaga: hello

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hey

Threedee Shepherd: hi Pema

Adelene Dawner: ^^

Rowan Masala knits her brow

Maxine Walden: We are gathering our different experiences, including possibly disorienting ways into the unknown

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: Adelene - at least Target keeps the stores consistent. i am quite annoyed when i walk into a huge drug stor, like duane reade, and there is no rhyme or reason to the layout

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: and they all differ

Adelene Dawner: ik

Maxine Walden: why knit brow, Rowan?

Very soon after Pema arrived the rather boistrous discussion fell almost to silence. Rowan remarks

Rowan Masala: everything was silent for a while. I was wondering if we had all taken separate elevators somewhere else :)

Threedee Shepherd: I live in Boulder, Colorado and the Rocky Mts. are to the West. My parents retired to Phoenix, with mountains in multiple directions, and I could never quite get oriented no matter how many times I visited.

I had some thoughts about the nature of the silence but as Rowan for her thoughts

Maxine Walden: what did you make of the silence, rowan?

Maxine Walden: another aspect of disorientation, Threedee

Threedee Shepherd: indeed

Rowan Masala: It was disconcerting. I wondered if I was still here. I thought it was odd that it happened just as Pema, who's such a fabulous conversational facilitator showed up

Maxine Walden: I had the impression that we became silent as Pema showed up, sort of like

Adelene Dawner is looking forward to perhaps moving to NYC - it will be nice to have hills around. And, yanno, rocks. Central park is nice. Here, it's all flat flat flat, sand and sand. Yuk.

Maxine Walden: we were all kids talking, laughing, goofing off and here comes the parent Pema. Did anyone else sense that?

Rowan Masala laughs

Pema Pera: :)

Rowan Masala: I had the sense that maybe we all got stage fright or performance anxiety when he showed up

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: slightly, perhaps. but, i think that happens alot when someone shows up in hte middel of a conversatoin

In response to the notion of the group going quiet because of Pema's arrival, perhaps the kids quieting when the parent comes into the room, Pema then responds

Pema Pera wondering whether to sing a song . . .

stevenaia Michinaga: lol, maybe a dance

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: to greet? to catch up? to just continue?

Pema Pera: can't let my hair down (further)

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: yes, to dance?

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: rock paper scissors, anyone?

Sky then joins us

Pema Pera: Hi Sky!

Maxine Walden: hi, Sky

Rowan Masala: hey Sky

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hello

Sky Szimmer: hi everyone

stevenaia Michinaga: it;s been a while since we de-evolved into dance

Adelene Dawner: Dare I ask?

The question of direction of evolution from discussion to dance comes up

Rowan Masala: what makes you say that's devolution??

Maxine Walden: join our menagerie, Sky

stevenaia Michinaga: was jsut thinking about that the other day

stevenaia Michinaga: well it does eveolve a bit of breakdown in decorum

Threedee Shepherd: We were talking about being "spatially disoriented" and I am wondering how that related to meditation and mindfulness?

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i think we should try a round of Exquisite Corpse sometime - where we finsih each other's sentences

Rowan Masala: decorum poof

The thread of discussion re orientation/disorientation remains and the notion of mindfulness is added

stevenaia Michinaga: can you ahve both, disorientation and mindfulness?

Adelene Dawner: You can be mindful of the disorientation...

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: sometimes i think you need to, or you;'re in trouble

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: like if you get lost while scuba diving or somethign

Rowan Masala nods

Rowan Masala: I think disorientation can shake us out of a narrow focus on something and remind us to be mindful

Pema brings his view of mindfulness into the discussion, suggesting in his view that it is independent of orientation/disorientation, a view which seemed different from others expressed previously. But as the flow of conversation continues his view seems to orient the conversation, demonstraing his leadership role

Pema Pera: mindfulness starts with not judging -- so if there is disorientation, well, that's the way it is

Pema Pera: but then you can try to re-orient yourself, if you like

Pema Pera: or if you are comfortable with it, let it be

Pema Pera: many options :)

Adelene Dawner: Hi Avastu ^^

Threedee Shepherd: What is *here/there* and *direction*, anyway. In one Native American language, ALL spoken spatial references are meant relative to the direction the speaker is facing.

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hi friend

Avastu comes in

Pema Pera: Evening, Avastu!

Avastu Maruti: hello my friend

Avastu Maruti: friend(s)

Threedee Shepherd: hi

Maxine Walden: hi, Avastu

Steve tries to relate mindfulness and orientation, and Pema has a different view. Throughout the next several minutes it seems that Pema and Fred and to some extent Steve are trying to compare/contrast views

stevenaia Michinaga: but doesn't the moment of mindfulness orient you

Pema Pera: not necessarily

Threedee Shepherd: in bein, not in space

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: multiple sense of disorientation here

stevenaia Michinaga: even from an observational point of view

Threedee Shepherd: being

Pema Pera: ah yes

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: the experience of feeling disoriented

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: and, the cognitive undersstanding/kn owledg of your current state

Threedee Shepherd: or more generally, "Oriented to What", Time, space, essence?

stevenaia Michinaga: jsut getting a sence of mindfulnees defined

Pema Pera: disorientation can indeed mean many things -- from confusion to a happy letting go of the need to focus on a single direction

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: but, it is an interesting question to consider the 'opposite' of mindfulness

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: confusion? disorientation?

Thinking that I was hearing different views/definitions of mindfulness I try to mention that observation. Some interesting conversation about mindfulness and different ways to view/think/work with it ensues.

Maxine Walden: I believe we have different thoughts about 'mindfulness' in this conversation. Might be helpful to get the different definitions but we are honing in on Pema's definiton

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: (at least the feeling of being disriented, with respect to whatever)

Rowan Masala: what's the realm of mindfulness and Being? Is it emotional? cognitive? spiritual? corporeal?

Pema Pera: I prefer a working definitino

Pema Pera: over a logical or verbal definition

Pema Pera: like: what to do to be mindful

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: or, what it feels like when _____

Rowan Masala nods

Threedee Shepherd: I understand mindfulness in the sense of one of the Buddhist meditative traditions, as being non-judgemental observational awareness of what arises in mind

Rowan Masala: so cognitive

Rowan Masala: but is that all?

Maxine Walden: Rowan, what do you think?

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: and, is it the kind of thing that has an opposite. or, how are its neighbors realted to it

Threedee Shepherd: I should say in mind-body, then, mindfulness is not explicitely cognative in any linguistic sense

stevenaia Michinaga: Mindfulness can be defined as awareness of each moment as it occurs and a purposeful attention. ... sounds like Being

Rowan Masala: then why do we call it mindfulness? that seems so exclusibe

Rowan Masala: *exclusive

Rowan Masala: why not a more encompassing word?

Threedee Shepherd: a poor translation from a language other than English, I think

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: present?

Rowan Masala nods

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: shoot - as in, here and now. not as in a gift, or showing someone something

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: (or, sent in advance)

Rowan Masala nods

Threedee Shepherd: steve, that works for me and does not require an specific orientation. Indeed orientation is one possible thing that is observed

stevenaia Michinaga: a web definition

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: but, being mindful of your disorientation is a funny one

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: cause, if its the experience of feeling disoriented, becoming mindful of it will likely collapse it

Threedee Shepherd: is it disorientation or non-orientation that is simply being?

stevenaia Michinaga: that was my feeling

Threedee Shepherd: steve, that???

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: didn't we make that observation about boredome the other day?

stevenaia Michinaga: Friedrich Ochsenhorn: cause, if its the experience of feeling disoriented, becoming mindful of it will likely collapse it

stevenaia Michinaga: that

Threedee Shepherd: what does that refer to, the threads are a bit tangled

stevenaia Michinaga: but I didn;t come here with a definition of what mindfulness was, jsut trying to get a sence of the word and it's meaning

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: at the same time, maybe this isn't so special. becoming mindful of any feeling alters it

stevenaia Michinaga: observing something changes it?

Pema Pera: well, interesting as this discussion is, I'm afraid I have to leave -- have to get up earliesh tomorrow for yet another day of meeting guardians, including Stevenaia -- yeah! And thank you VERY much, Threedee, for again taking over from me at 1 am later tonight; wonderful to be able to get enough sleep tonight.

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: g'night!

Threedee Shepherd: :) bye for now

stevenaia Michinaga: ..smiles

Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend

Maxine Walden: bye, Pema

stevenaia Michinaga: see you for dinner Pema

Pema Pera: next week, when I'm in Japan, I will have more time to come regularly

Pema Pera: see you all soon again!

Pema leaves the discussion.

stevenaia Michinaga: you do get around

Threedee Shepherd: I would like to press on orientation a bit more, please

Maxine Walden: please

stevenaia Michinaga: orientation or observation?

Threedee Shepherd: One way I enter the 9-sec is to have a sense of disengagement, to allow what then happens to happen. For me, that is non-orientation i of a kind.

stevenaia Michinaga: hmm, thunder in the distance, I usually loose SL when a storm passes

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i think rowan's dimensions were relavant here

Threedee Shepherd: which?

stevenaia Michinaga: when I take my 9 secs, I go dark and re-emerge into.... whatever is there, a re-orientation

Threedee Shepherd: ah, I realize that oriented to *what* is being danced with here

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: [19:27] Rowan Masala: what's the realm of mindfulness and Being? Is it emotional? cognitive? spiritual? corporeal?

Adelene leaves the discussion

Adelene Dawner: hmm. I'm getting a headache. I think I'll go lie down for a while. I'll take thi av back home; the meeting will be over by the time I get back, I'm sure.

Maxine Walden: nice to see you Adelene

Adelene Dawner: :)

Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm, and to that 19:27 quote, I answer, YES ;)

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: be well

Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend

stevenaia Michinaga: night Adelene

Adelene Dawner: See you all another time.

Rowan Masala: bye Adelene. take care

Threedee Shepherd: later adelene...

Rowan Masala smiles at Threedee

Rowan Masala: so all of the above, and more

Threedee Shepherd: yes

Rowan Masala: what language would that have been translated from? and does anyone know enough about it to have more of a sense of what it might have originally meant?

Fred tries to bring another strand of conversation into the room, perhaps also to bring in Avastu who has remained almost totally silent so far.

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: (sorry. no) hmmmm.... you know, there is an aspect of this conversation that ties back to a great converstaion avastu and I had last week

Maxine Walden: are you wondering about the term mindfulness, where it came from?

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: the question of whether beliefs can create/change reality

But Threedee who has had the topic of orientation/disorientation in mind persists with it

Threedee Shepherd: yet, let me go back to the very specific spatial case and see additional meaning. To be specific, I visit Washington DC at least yearly. There are a few downtown Metro (subway) stops, which when I emerge from them, I know my destination but have no idea which way to go to get there. It is like I am suspended in a warp of some sort

Then we are joined by Venolin who moreless stumbled into the Pavilion. It was her first time, and we all become involved in welcoming her. Perhaps a kind of orientation we can all agree upon warmly

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Verolin

Venolin Sweetwater: hello

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hi there

Maxine Walden: hi, Venolin.

Threedee Shepherd: hello

Venolin Sweetwater: hello everyone

Avastu Maruti: hello my friend

Venolin Sweetwater: where am i

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: as for etymology, I have no idea, but i wouldnt be surprised if it has many sources, muddled togehter

Maxine Walden: I'm not sure we have met, have you been to these meetings before? Playasbeing meeting is where you are

Threedee Shepherd: beliefs are part of my part of being, and if all being is the reality there is, then Yes, beliefs create/are reality in some way

Venolin Sweetwater: what is this?

Venolin Sweetwater: am i interupting?

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: great question! ;-)

Maxine Walden: it is a meeting where we talk about the nature of reality, not interrupting, please join us if you wish

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: not at all. please sit down.

stevenaia Michinaga: no, feel free to paticipate

Threedee Shepherd: Ah, Verolin, you are new to SL. sit for a bit

Venolin Sweetwater: yes I am

Maxine Walden: Verolin, we do blog our conversation, are you OK with that, with your SL conversation with us?

Rowan Masala: welcome to SL, and to Play as Being

Maxine Walden: all these questions for you Verolin

Venolin Sweetwater: that's fine

Maxine Walden: great

Threedee Shepherd: Venolin, may I ask how it was you teleported to here?

Venolin Sweetwater: I'm not sure how I got here

Maxine Walden: you may wish to read about these conversations. They are at www.Playasbeing.wordpress.com

Threedee Shepherd: Then you are certainly in the right place :)

stevenaia Michinaga: when you have a moment , please feel free to look at our wiki

stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell

Rowan Masala smiles at threedee

Rowan Masala: Venolin, if you will right click on a cushion, it will give you a "sit" option

Maxine Walden: thanks Steve for giving Venolin that site

Trying to recapture the thread of conversation I ask a question which gathers laughter as it demonstrates some disorientation.

Maxine Walden: where was the conversation?

Rowan Masala applauds

stevenaia Michinaga: lol

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i think we got a bit disoriented

Rowan Masala laughs

stevenaia Michinaga: very good Fried

Rowan Masala: but we are mindful of the disorientation

Rowan Masala: :P

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: man, i wish i had a spin gesture

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: there are swings in SL where the whole world swings... that's a wild effect

Maxine Walden: playing with disorientation

Aware I would have to leave soon I mention it and at this point in the conversation the orientation of Venolin seems to be the main topic

Maxine Walden: I will need to leavve in about 5 minutes, just some forwarning

Maxine Walden: leave

Venolin Sweetwater: did I miss your discussion

Maxine Walden: we began to meet at 7pm SL time, so much of the discussion yes

Maxine Walden: we meet 4 times daily: 7pm, 1pm, 7am, 1am

Rowan Masala: wb Steven

Threedee Shepherd: Venolin, I remember my first moments wandering in SL. For you, I suspect this will either turn out to be memorable, or forgetable as chaotic, dropping into the middle of our wanderingsa

stevenaia Michinaga: if you want to come back here you can make a landmark of this location (World:Create Landmark Here"

Venolin Sweetwater: Actually I am interested, and would lie to join one of your discussions from the begining. I will check out your blog you sent me to

Maxine Walden: please do

Threedee Shepherd: Different members are at different ones of the meetings, somewhat dependent on timezone

Maxine Walden: as I go tonight I will take the chatlog and in a few hours it should be on the blog as well

Maxine Walden: the chatlog for this meeting

Venolin Sweetwater: well thank you for letting me join your evening, even though I wandered in too late

Maxine Walden: it is 8pm and I should go, so I will do the necessary things and then slip out

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: thanks Maxine!

Friedrich Ochsenhorn: great conversation, everyone

stevenaia Michinaga: night all