2008.08.03 1300 -- Our animal natures

The guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden.  The comments are hers except for one coment added by Adams

As I came to the Pavilion Wol, Quilty and Threedee were already there.  We were soon joined by Fael.

Wol Euler: hello Maxine
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Maxine.
Wol Euler: same here
Threedee Shepherd: yes, embodiment is a major part of what I am exploring and I am getting comfortable in Lion
Threedee Shepherd: hello
Maxine Walden: hello, Wol and Quilty and Threedee
Threedee Shepherd: hello Maxine
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Fael.
Wol Euler: ah, fael's here.
Fael Illyar: Hi, Wol, Quilty, Maxine, Threedee :)

Then I noticed that one of us around the table was a Lion! Could not help mentioning it as I had not seen a non-human avatar at these meetings before

Maxine Walden: oh, Threedee, I just noticed your Lion-ness, have you always been one in SL?
Maxine Walden: Hi, Fael?
Threedee Shepherd: Hello Fael
Threedee Shepherd: I have multiple Avs, I have been using Lion for almost a month

Adams joined us at this point

Fael Illyar: Hi Adams :)
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Adams

Adams also seemed surprised by the Lion and her typo began some lyrical word play

Adams Rubble: Whoa....a Loon!
Fael Illyar: Hi Gaya :)
Wol Euler: hello adams, gaya
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Gaya
Maxine Walden: I have been away for a few days and do not recall meeting you or a lion here at the PaB meetings. Nice to meet you
Adams Rubble: Hello fael :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adams Rubble: Helo Wol :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Maxine :)
Quilty Bookmite: Nice dance.
Threedee Shepherd: hi
Adams Rubble: Hello Threedee
Maxine Walden: A loon or a lion, Adams, one keystroke makes a big difference!
Adams Rubble: Hello Quilty
Threedee Shepherd: or a loony lion :D
Adams Rubble: Haha
Maxine Walden: haha
Adams Rubble: on my
Adams Rubble: oh my
Fael Illyar: Gaya, is that dance intentional or did SL just bug it there?
Wol Euler is occasionally loony
Adams Rubble: better not ntype today
Fael Illyar: Well, regardless, I'd prefer if you clicked that animation remover there :)
Threedee Shepherd: Oh, typos are Play...

Bunan joined us, and while others seemed to know him, this was my first encounter with him...

Quilty Bookmite: Hi Bunan
Fael Illyar: Hi Bunan
Adams Rubble: 'Hello Bunan
Bunan Bosatsu: Hello!
Wol Euler: hello bunan
Maxine Walden: Hi, Bunan
Bunan Bosatsu: May I join you?
Fael Illyar: sure
Threedee Shepherd: please do
Wol Euler: of course
Adams Rubble: Yes, of course
Maxine Walden: yes, typos do seem to be a kind of play, and maybe have a wisdom of there own
Bunan Bosatsu: Thank you... you are very gracious! It is nice to see you all today.
Maxine Walden: welcome Bunan

And Gaya joined us

Fael Illyar: wb Gaya :)
Wol Euler: wb gaya
Adams Rubble knows better than to call a lion a loon :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Gaya Ethaniel: finally meeting you in person Bunan
Maxine Walden: Adams, my fingers might not know better, I mightmake that typo too.
Bunan Bosatsu: I hope I haven't disappointed! Its only me. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: not at all :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Wol Euler chuckles

Curious about the experience of 'being' a non-human in terms of one's avatar I asked Threedee about that, and the ensuing conversation seemed to elaborate on one's attribution of qualities to one's avatar:

Maxine Walden: Threedee, when you are a lion do you feel more lionine (sp)?
Wol Euler: oh, you look just like your av :-) nice.
Wol Euler: mind you, so does threedee :-P
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Threedee Shepherd: I feel more primal
Maxine Walden: more prima; can you say more?
Maxine Walden: primal
Bunan Bosatsu: If primal is what you are hoping for... maybe a nice amoeba or paramecium AV would do the trick?! HA!
Adams Rubble: :)
Threedee Shepherd: I do have a Nautilus Av:)
Bunan Bosatsu: There you go!
Gaya Ethaniel plays Pearl Jam VS in the background... yes bit primal this
Quilty Bookmite: Too many cells perhaps?
Threedee Shepherd: Lions are less wordy than me, which I like exploring.
Faenik: could be
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... i c Threedee
Bunan Bosatsu: I had better quickly get myself a lion AV then... (Plap!)
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you consider yourself wordy normally Threedee?
Threedee Shepherd: Yes
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Threedee Shepherd: I am a retired professor. Just give me a topic and a platform and time to prepare... ;)
Gaya Ethaniel: And does your AV affect you in that you don't feel the need to be wordy? Do you mean 'wordy' as talkative btw?
Wol Euler: lol
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Threedee Shepherd: both talkative and as in "the word is not the thing"
Gaya Ethaniel: why not get on the table Threedee :)
Gaya Ethaniel zooms on Fael
Quilty Bookmite: It seems that appearing as a lion is forcing you totalk more than you would otherwise. :-)
Threedee Shepherd: Why the table. I'd have to change avs and disrupt things
Wol Euler kicks SL and waits for rezzing.
Gaya Ethaniel: We can use the table as a platform :)

Then another creature, a very colorful dragon, was brought on the scene by Fael.

Quilty Bookmite: Nice dragon!
Quilty Bookmite: Suits your flamboyant character Fael.
Wol Euler: indeed
Gaya Ethaniel: Where is Faenik?
Maxine Walden: oh, yes, a dragon and a lion in our midst!!
Wol Euler: eaten, perhaps.
Fael Illyar: some part of this AV replaced Faenik it seems
Threedee Shepherd: I have and use the multicolor of that dragon at dances, Fael. I was introduced to Grendel's some time ago :D
Gaya Ethaniel: :(
Quilty Bookmite: Now, where is my hamster costume?
Fael Illyar: :)
Maxine Walden: haha, Quilty
Gaya Ethaniel smiles

And Threedee offered a very interesting question to pursue, just prior to Doug's joining the group

Threedee Shepherd: perhaps we could say more about Av, costume and Being?
Adams Rubble: Hello Doug
Wol Euler: hi doug
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Doug.
doug Sosa: hi, apologies.
Threedee Shepherd: hi doug
Fael Illyar: Hi doug :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_

I tried to pursue Threedee's question

Maxine Walden: yes, Threedee, what thoughts? Attire seems very influenctial at times

Now there appeared an enormous horse-like figure which slowly attained black stripes...and we continued with various strands of the animal avatar conversation

Maxine Walden: oh, my who is the big horse???
Wol Euler: do you feel embodiment as a lion?
Gaya Ethaniel: Quilty :)
Quilty Bookmite: Zebra if you don't mind.
Maxine Walden: is this Quilty the Zebra?
Quilty Bookmite: It's amazing what you can accumulate in your inventory.
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Maxine Walden: yes, amazing
Gaya Ethaniel: Threedee it could have been any animals to be less wordy. why lion?
Threedee Shepherd: <tangent> Zebras recognize each other by their stripe pattern ;D
Quilty Bookmite: I think I prefer being human.
Gaya Ethaniel: oh... didn't know that
Threedee Shepherd: Lion was suggested to me by Adelene, based on her perceptions

I believe in here that Fael the dragon sent a little fire-breath Gaya's way, but I cannot be sure it happened so fast

Gaya Ethaniel: ouch... that hurt a little Fael
Fael Illyar: sorry, hard to aim
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... what was her perception may i ask?
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Maxine Walden: perhaps we switch in and out of our animal natures here
Threedee Shepherd: That I was a lion in her exotic taxonomy

And I believe this is where Bunan began to send around to each member of the group some Juzu beads

Wol Euler: / ty bunan
Threedee Shepherd: thx
Adams Rubble: ty Bunan
Bunan Bosatsu gave you Juzu Beads.
Maxine Walden: thanks Bunan
Quilty Bookmite: TY Bunan

Bunan's gift to each member seemed to turn the discussion away from the animal avatar theme...

Gaya Ethaniel looks up 'taxonomy' another big word
Bunan Bosatsu: :-)
Threedee Shepherd: how are the beads used?
Quilty Bookmite: Can't seem to use them.
Bunan Bosatsu: They are used differently by various peoples, and by various groups... In Rinzai Zen, we use them to keep count of devotions; i.e. Mantras, or prostrations... mostly, it seems that Oshos or Unsui (Priests or monks) just carry them... go figure!
Faenik: why not?
Wol Euler: oh, they aren't linked, they are a compound selection. Have to rezz them and pic k them up, I think.
Quilty Bookmite: Like a Mala?
Bunan Bosatsu: Precesely like that... Juzu Mala... that is what they are!
Quilty Bookmite: I see. Thank you!

As the conversation continues, and easier to see in retrospect, different strands seem to not quite braid together but separate out, all regarding aspects of what Bunan is saying...and again in retrospect I recall as Guardian I was becoming a bit uncertain whether I should do something to address Bunan's seeming domination of the conversation. Still at the time it seemed that various members were interested in or at least commenting on the various strands.

Threedee Shepherd: In what way does keeping count matter?
Bunan Bosatsu: Most welcome..
Quilty Bookmite: There. I have a mala in my inventory.
Bunan Bosatsu: Well... if you set out to do 108, or 3000 of something... and someone walks up to you when you are around 2422, and asks, "What are you up to? 2443? 3296? 1097?" and walks away... if you don't have your handy Juzu.. you may have to start at 1... that's bad.
Adams Rubble: :)
Bunan Bosatsu: (my horns are protruding a wee bit)
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Fael Illyar: :)
Quilty Bookmite: My wife is a Tibetan buddhist. She uses her mala a lot.
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you mean 'yeomju' Bunan?
Bunan Bosatsu: I think we Rinzai monks use them much less than other traditions...
Bunan Bosatsu: Yes... Yeom Ju is the Korean term.
Fael Illyar: Is the exact count really that important?
Gaya Ethaniel: Ah.. yes I understand now
Quilty Bookmite: In Soto we don;t use them much either.
Bunan Bosatsu: Both Juzu and Yeom Ju are corruptive pronunciations of the Chinese.
Gaya Ethaniel: I keep my mother's as a 'charm' rather than for counting/chanting :)
Bunan Bosatsu: Soto Juzu are slightly different.. they have a metal ring attached to them.
Gaya Ethaniel: oh.. i didn't know that
Quilty Bookmite: It gets used at new year to count the bells.
Bunan Bosatsu: I have always thought that they would come in handy if you were fresh out of horseshoes and wanted to get a game together between sittings... providing you don't get caught! HA!
Faenik loves wells!
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Bunan Bosatsu: There was a satisfying few seconds of scandalized silence! :-D

Here, I was feeling rather alone and depleted as the Guardian, which should have signaled to me that someone else had taken over the leadership of the meeting, but as often happens for me in these situations at the time it is difficult to muster up the clarity re how to proceed; also it did seem that others were finding the conversation interesting.

Adams comment: The week before, when I was GOC, a number of other guardians jumped in to help me. We failed you Maxine, because I, at least, was in the same quandry as you were. Three members were engaged in conversation, while one was ignoring your atempts to take control. Four of us guardians sat on our hands. The other member of our group made various attempts to join the conversation. This wasn't a clear case of disruption although I, at least, was considering it. Complicating the situation was the fact that earlier conversation was just playful banter.

Quilty Bookmite: Amongst us?
Gaya Ethaniel: Could I also have Yeom Ju pls Bunan?
Bunan Bosatsu: .. you should have seen the look on my teacher's face when I explained to a Lay Woman who had been enquireing about evil spirits that that was *precisely* why we monks dressed up to look like Nosferatu.... I got a 'talking to' after that one... yikes!
Gaya Ethaniel: What's Nosferatu?

I tried here to re-direct the conversation back to a previous question, one that Threedee had raised earlier.

Maxine Walden: Threedee raised the question Ithink about how our attire/appearance might affect our Being. Threedee did you have more thoughts about that, or are we living that out here?
Bunan Bosatsu: Gaya, since you have not provided the secret Yeom ju password... I will have to insist that you pick a number between 1 and 500,000,000
Gaya Ethaniel: 10,000
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks
Gaya Ethaniel doesn't understand Bunan's question
Bunan Bosatsu: Good guess!! To be honest, I had my doubts that you would pick the correct number!
Threedee Shepherd: I think we are living it out, and also am interested in how that seems to each/any of us. as in becomming is being
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Faenik: ah :)
Bunan Bosatsu: (it's all silliness..... no worries...)
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... :)
Bunan Bosatsu: (Bunan secretly wonders how he could put whoopee cushions in all of the zafus...)

And Threedee speaks to the question

Threedee Shepherd: I have observed that people relate strongly to their Avs, thus I think Av choice (or accident) becomes interesting as a way of knowing
Quilty Bookmite: We are terribly serious here Bunan.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Maxine Walden: ah, interesting, Threedee
Wol Euler: true, threedee
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Fael Illyar: I guess that fits with Rinzai style :)
Bunan Bosatsu: Yes... as you can see, I have adjusted my normally irreverent tone to a more suitable and dignified one. Ahem!
Gaya Ethaniel: I can't imagine myself taking on non-human AV yet...
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Quilty Bookmite: I have tried to make my AV look as much like myself as possible.
Threedee Shepherd: some people in SL do not appreciate (like?) non-human avs.
Quilty Bookmite: All part of my terrible seriousness. :-)
Bunan Bosatsu: My AV looks (creepily) just like me... as you can see by the pic in my profile...
Threedee Shepherd: My human Av looks like me. I will attend in that form another time.
Bunan Bosatsu: (seems like a mean trick to play on a poor innocent AV! HA!)
Wol Euler: neitherr of my avs looks at all like me.
Fael Illyar: none of mine look like me either :)
Fael Illyar: especially not this one ;)
Faenik: ah :)
Wol Euler chucklesw
Quilty Bookmite: Well, I'm sure you are no dragon Fael. :-)
Fael Illyar: although in some ways you could say they do :P
Adams Rubble has used the avatar to more around attractions
Maxine Walden: Haha, Fael
Quilty Bookmite: Dragon is my Chinese birth year.

At this point, I believe, the conversation takes another turn, and perhaps again inretrospect, while the group was being playful some members may also have been diverting from addressing aspects of 'being' or Being.

Threedee Shepherd: Bunan, in your tradition are amoeba's sentient?
Wol Euler: they express your soul, perhaps, which brings us to Maxine#s question.
Bunan Bosatsu: Rocks are sentient... garbage... air...
Threedee Shepherd: ah, thought so
Bunan Bosatsu: .. though not quite as talkative.
Threedee Shepherd: It MIGHT be interesting to have a session where we all come prepared with pictures and use only them to communicate :D
Quilty Bookmite: Can you explain what you mean about rocks being sentient?
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Bunan Bosatsu: All things are considered to be part of a greater unity... all part and parcel of the same truth...
Fael Illyar: ThreeDee, I think there are communities around internet that do just that, communicate almost solely with pictures.

Then followed a discussion which is perplexing to me to try to characterize in retrospect, in that several members seemed interested in the pursuit of the topic, again led by Bunan, but some others in the group may have felt that it diverted away from the discussion of direct experience. It may be of interest to have other participants recall their experience here.

Bunan Bosatsu: .. this is evinced in the Koan; "The ten thousand things return to the one... What does the one return to?"
Threedee Shepherd: I'll look
Bunan Bosatsu: Everything... all of the distinctions that we make... are formulations of mind...
Bunan Bosatsu: Reality is reality...
Quilty Bookmite: So they aren't sentient in themselves but part of something that is?
Threedee Shepherd: formulati0ons AND illusions
Bunan Bosatsu: Rocks... bugs... people... trees... we all live in the same bellybuton.
Faenik: why not?
Bunan Bosatsu: They are ALL part of the same... mind ground.
Bunan Bosatsu: Mind is mind... there is no... my mind... his mind... your mind... just MIND. Period.
Fael Illyar: that sounds like the mind isn't part of reality.
Quilty Bookmite: But can you talk about the Mind being sentient?
Bunan Bosatsu: Its the other way around... only sideways... Mind creates reality.... you cannot access reality EXCEPT through the filter of mind....
Bunan Bosatsu: A rock exists.. where? If there is not mind??
Gaya Ethaniel: does the existence require 'mind'?
Fael Illyar: mind is where everything exists? That sums it up quite nicely :)
Quilty Bookmite: Are we talking about Mind with a capital M?
Bunan Bosatsu: Is there existence without it?? I don't know.. I have only ever existed WITH mind... so long as I can remember anyway...
Fael Illyar: Quilty there is a difference?
Maxine Walden: The role of mind or each of our mind in the creation of reality is an interesting question.
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. Mind with a small m is the self.
Bunan Bosatsu: This is a question with no answer... you end up running up your own asshole... and where does that get you?? Better to just do the dishes!
Gaya Ethaniel: role of mind in in realisation of truth also
Threedee Shepherd: do the dishes, but mindfully :)
Quilty Bookmite: I'll do the dishes in the morning. :-)
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Bunan Bosatsu: Yes... I actually use this practice. It is a VERY optimistic practice.
Gaya Ethaniel: yes i called it 'washing up dishes' meditation :P
Bunan Bosatsu: I often recommend this type of meditation for those whose lives will not allow time for formal Zazen/Kinhin practice...
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Bunan Bosatsu: Zen uses three types of training... Koan practice, Meditation practice (Zazen), and daily life...
Quilty Bookmite: In my tradition we call it work meditation.
Bunan Bosatsu: This would fall into the latter.
Gaya Ethaniel: yes here too, called meditation
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Threedee Shepherd: Does Koan practice require the presence of another?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hi Faenik
Bunan Bosatsu: Most people just want to 'get through' doing the dishes... they aren't THERE. It is a crime of violence against their life.
Gaya Ethaniel: another person? Threedee
Threedee Shepherd: yes, person
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Bunan Bosatsu: Koan practice.... well... you must have a teacher who can recognize your manifested understanding, and guide you away from misunderstanding and misinterpretation...
Gaya Ethaniel: I'd thought we could just reflect on our own Bunan?
Faenik: Hi Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: right...
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Bunan Bosatsu: ..so.. I would say yes. You need a teacher. Or you end up chasing your tail... and being enlightened several times per day! HA!
Quilty Bookmite: I believe Koans are occasionally used in Soto although I haven't heard of it happening.
Bunan Bosatsu: There was a monk who did koan practice on an island located on the grounds of a monastery.
Bunan Bosatsu: He had practiced in solitude on a single koan for three years...
Bunan Bosatsu: One day, he KNEW he was enlightened!! He was SURE of it!
Gaya Ethaniel: 3 years...
Bunan Bosatsu: When the supply boat, rowed by a fellow monk arrived on its 2 week interval, ...
Bunan Bosatsu: He instructed the monk to bring him parchment, fine brushes, and expensive ink...
Bunan Bosatsu: he was going to write an enlightenment poem to proove to the Roshi that he had attained enlightenment!
Gaya Ethaniel: Roshi?
Bunan Bosatsu: The monk brought the items the next time he was scheduled to bring food and supplies (Roshi - Old Teacher -- Zen Master)
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Bunan Bosatsu: The monk wrote "Three years of investigating Silence"
Threedee Shepherd: ,tangent> Rosh in Hebrew means head, and also Head teacher.
Gaya Ethaniel: oh... that's interesting Threedee
Bunan Bosatsu: "Understanding Dawns unhoped for!"
Quilty Bookmite: I didn't know that. Thank you Threedee. :-)
Bunan Bosatsu: "No longer is this one pushed along by the four winds!"
Bunan Bosatsu: He rolled up the parchment and gave it to the boat-monk to deliver into the Roshi's hands.
Bunan Bosatsu: The Roshi read the poem, took a pen with red ink, and after each line wrote "Fart"
Bunan Bosatsu: The monk received his parchment back, and saw "Fart" defacing the end of each line!! HE WAS FURIOUS!!!
Gaya Ethaniel laughts out loud
Bunan Bosatsu: He DEMANDED that the boat-monk row him to the mainland.
Bunan Bosatsu: He stormed into the Roshi's private chambers and DEMANDED to know the meaning of this insult!!
Bunan Bosatsu: The Roshi fixed him with a level gaze and, smiling, said...
Bunan Bosatsu: "No longer pushed by the four winds, hug? And yet... a few small farts have pushed you all the way across the lake to my room!!"
Bunan Bosatsu: This is Koan practice with no teacher!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: I see the importance of a teacher yes Bunan
Threedee Shepherd: is there a place in SL where prople meet for Koan practice?
Faenik: could be
Bunan Bosatsu: I don't think so....
Quilty Bookmite: I would think you really need to do it in RL.
Gaya Ethaniel: Having a teacher in RL helps yes
Bunan Bosatsu: I think it would be problematic because most often one manifests understanding in a manner that isnt verbal.... words can... complicate things in this particular form of study....
Bunan Bosatsu: This is hard to explain... I am groping. Also, I only have knowledge of my own koan practice.... I have never been present during anyone else's Sanzen or Dokusan... It is always only me... and Roshi. (Sanzen/Dokusan - types of encounters with one's Teacher)
Quilty Bookmite: Sanzen is in my practice too. I know what you mean Bunan.
Bunan Bosatsu: My personal opinion is that my understanding is nil... and that Roshi more or less thinks I am hopeless... but... I never really know... I don't have a contindent sense that I have EVER passed a single Koan... I tend to suspect that I am 'moved along' out of pity or exasperation... this is not false modesty... I really do feel this way.
Quilty Bookmite: SL is a much inferior medium to real life.
Bunan Bosatsu: (confident vs. contdent yikes)
Threedee Shepherd: I find that typing chat gives me time to reflect both tqaking in and saying, and I appreciate that experience...
Faenik loves wells!
Quilty Bookmite: Perhaps Bunan, it is simply felt that it is the right thing to do to move you on.
Bunan Bosatsu: I think he may switch koans about to try to give me a kick... but I feel as though I am running repeatedly into a brick wall at times... but, I am still here... so ... who knows...?
Gaya Ethaniel: Can't you do the same talking Threedee?
Adams Rubble: Bye everyone. I must go :)
Bunan Bosatsu: Go in Peace Adams
Fael Illyar: Bye Adams :)
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Threedee Shepherd: talking happens too fast
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Adams.
Threedee Shepherd: by adams
Gaya Ethaniel: I can understand yes... I find myself in similar situation if talking to more than 1 person Threedee
Quilty Bookmite: Does a Roshi really get exasperated? :-)
Threedee Shepherd: it can be even worse with one person, so many easy illusionary assumptions
Gaya Ethaniel: And that one person has to be patient to wait for me to think before speaking
Bunan Bosatsu: Oh yes...!!! You have *NO* idea! HA!
Maxine Walden: I will need to go in a few minutes, and will take the chatlog along with me. Bunan, are yo OK with having your comments mentioned in our chatlog?
Gaya Ethaniel: true... it depends on whom as well not just the headcount
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: But once you get to know that person, it's ok isn't it Threedee?
Bunan Bosatsu: Roshis on Discovery channel are all peace and serenity...Zen practice is all about Shit and Sunshine... Sometimes... well... you get the shit. What can I say? Read about the teaching practices of Lin-Chi Zen-Ji... He is the Rinzai of the Rinzai Zen!
Bunan Bosatsu: Rinzai is the Japanese pronunciation of Lin-CHi
Threedee Shepherd: depends. Just when I think I "know" i am most likely to elicit a surprise.
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... very true Threedee
Gaya Ethaniel: keep us on our toes :)
Quilty Bookmite: I know very little about Rinzai I'm afraid. From my perspective it seems more frenetic than Soto but that is really a judgement I shouldn;t make.
Faenik: could be
Threedee Shepherd: now that I am recently "retired" I find time and patience that I wish I had when I was so "Busy"
Gaya Ethaniel: well what's past is past Threedee. Now it counts what and how you do now with the time left
Threedee Shepherd: agreed :)
Bunan Bosatsu: I don't think I would use the term 'frenetic' as that engenders a sense of ceaseless activity... maybe panic... but... I see how you might choose it....
Gaya Ethaniel: man... that sounds corny :(
Wol Euler: true thoiugh
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. Bad choice of words.
Gaya Ethaniel: Well that's what Gandalf says to Frodo anyhow
Threedee Shepherd: simple is closer to 'truth'
Bunan Bosatsu: Rinzai is very fierce.... austere... even severe. It is.... hard to talk about... you have to experience it directly.. do you know what I mean?
Wol Euler: the best time to plant an oak tree is "twenty years ago". The next best time is "right now"
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Quilty Bookmite: Yes Bunan. thank you.

As I look back on the preceding conversation I believe I see that the conversation has been dominated by one member, perhaps creatively, perhaps not. But some of the slightly dis-spirited comments just a few lines back suggest slight frustration.. It is always humbling to 'be' in a group conversation such as this, trying to man the tiller, and not always feeling one did a good job. As I gather to leave and ask Bunan about his being quoted in the chatlog, it seems to me that none of my several questions were responded to. So as I leave the conversation, I wonder how much of a dialog it really had been and that I would hope to be a wiser Guardian next time.

Maxine Walden: We keep a chatlog of these meetings and only use SL names
Quilty Bookmite: I think Soto can be quite austere as practiced in Japan. My own westernised practice is more gentle.
Bunan Bosatsu: Zen isn't 'fun'... it looks all relaxing and peaceful... and there is that... but you don't feel the pain when you look at the pictures...
Maxine Walden: Bunan, are you OK, then with having your comments put on our chatlog?
Bunan Bosatsu: Many new students are shocked by this realization... and we never see them again, usually...
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... my time is up. Thanks for the conversation. Thanks Bunan for Yeom Ju. Good day to you all.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Gaya.
Bunan Bosatsu: Yes... Pema has done it from the start. I just want to make it clear that I am not the voice of Rinzai Zen... only the voice of Bunan Unsui... who knows jack-shit.
Wol Euler: ah, missed her.
Bunan Bosatsu: Usual disclaimer applies...
Bunan Bosatsu: ..individual mileage may vary...
Maxine Walden: I do need to go and assume taking the chatlog is OK with all.
Maxine Walden: Bye for now
Threedee Shepherd: ok, and bye till next time