2008.08.10 13:00 - Strands and threads

The guardian at this session was Maxine Walden. The comments are hers, but Adams Rubble may have added some comments at the end as the discussion continued after Maxine had to leave.

Soon after I got to the Pavilion Stevenaia and Quilty joined me, both seeming to come by Balloon!

stevenaia Michinaga: hello Maxine
Maxine Walden: hi, Stevenaia, nice to see you
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Maxine.
Maxine Walden: and Quilty, you came on a balloon!
Quilty Bookmite: I did.
stevenaia Michinaga: we were chatting up there
Maxine Walden: is that your current form of transporation, oh, both of you!
Quilty Bookmite: It's nice up there. Less polluted. :-)
Maxine Walden: yes, expect so!
stevenaia Michinaga: I was catching up on the discussions this morning

Stevenaia was referring to the Sunday morning guardian meeting which dealt with concerns, issues among the group regarding the practice of Playasbeing.

Maxine Walden: and maybe fresh ideas as well up there?
Quilty Bookmite: Oh?
Quilty Bookmite: Anything important?

There is a bit of to and fro and then I offer a summary of some of the points of the meeting. And Steven as well from the transcript Pema posted.

Maxine Walden: oh, yes, Steven, care to summarize?
stevenaia Michinaga: worth reading I think, I arrived after yoga, is an eternal scheduling conflect but it was still going on
stevenaia Michinaga: I thought you were there?
Maxine Walden: I was there, thought you might be talking with Quilty about what you read
stevenaia Michinaga: since I never go I never get the flavor of the personalities and haw they differ tom these discussion or perhaps some are never at the same meetings
stevenaia Michinaga: no, I wasn't
Quilty Bookmite: Checking my email...
stevenaia Michinaga: here people seemed somewhat disarmed, the meetingings seem more intence
Maxine Walden: oh, well I can summarize, from my perspective: different guardians all began to mention their approach, expectations, vulnerabilites re PaB, and there was some intense discussion
stevenaia Michinaga: many difering views, which is good, but an interesting contract than the supportive environment I ahve found ehre
stevenaia Michinaga: *contrast
stevenaia Michinaga: both are great, btw
Maxine Walden: those who thought that in PaB wshould be aware that some folks are vulnerable, destabilized by the practice, and some others feeling that we are really responsible for ourselves, need to be accountable...
Maxine Walden: but for me the best thing was that some folks spoke of concerns they had not felt able to express fully before
stevenaia Michinaga: yes

It felt to me that Quilty might be feeling not included so I asked to make sure that he had access to this meeting log.

Maxine Walden: Quilty, do I recall correctly that you are a guardian?
stevenaia Michinaga: I belive this should be a nurturing environment
Quilty Bookmite: I am. :-)
Maxine Walden: yes, I think so too, think we all approach these sessions in that way.
Quilty Bookmite: I haven't made it to a meeting yet.
Maxine Walden: Yes, then you have access to the meeting we were mentioning, the one this morning
Maxine Walden: right, just making sure you felt included
Quilty Bookmite: 4 p.m. on a Sunday afternoon we are normally out somewhere.
stevenaia Michinaga: no two people can take this journey at the same pase and the one's ahead should be there for the new people and those who are willing to see from another's perspective
Quilty Bookmite: I just started to look at the transcript but it's quite long, so maybe later.
Maxine Walden: of course, I understand completely, Quilty

Doug Sosa then joined us.

Quilty Bookmite: Hi Doug.
Maxine Walden: right...oh, here comes doug
stevenaia Michinaga: but that is my nature
Maxine Walden: hi doug
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Doug
doug Sosa: hi all.
doug Sosa: hi more!

We then began an interesting mulit-strand discussion about the 9 sec practice and creativity, along with the humorous references about tax revolts:

stevenaia Michinaga: I am one of the lagging practitioners of the 9 secs either because of distraction (my personal tax revolt) or through preoccpationa with other things
Maxine Walden: care to say more, Steven?
Quilty Bookmite: Tax revolt?
Quilty Bookmite: having a tea party? :-)
Maxine Walden: Boston tea party!?
Quilty Bookmite: I think that was a tax revolt, wasn't it?
stevenaia Michinaga: much of my work is my own meditation, so finding time to take my 9 second moment seems to break the flow of meditations within meditation
Maxine Walden: yes, Quilty, that is my memory , made me smile, you mentioning it
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: no pema calling the 9 seconds a tax
Maxine Walden: ah, pulled away from what feels more 'natural' for you
Quilty Bookmite: I'm with you on that one Stevenaia.
stevenaia Michinaga: I have tried it and in time I will try it more
Quilty Bookmite: My own meditation practice is more important to me than PaB.

Then various discussion about the value/experience of the 9 second practice

doug Sosa: 9 sec within meditation seems like a very intresting moment.
Quilty Bookmite: But I do try PaB occasionally.
stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t deny that even the few times I ahve focused on it were worthwhile
Maxine Walden: please let's talk more about this; does it then seem like PaB is something imposed?
stevenaia Michinaga: no, jsut a shift in habits
Maxine Walden: ah...
Quilty Bookmite: Not to me. It's my choice whether I practice it or not.
Maxine Walden: yes...

And then dipping into various creative aspects of experience, including RL and SL architecture

stevenaia Michinaga: my work is drawing which is focused creative and abstract at the same time.. my meditation of sorts
Maxine Walden: your work is your meditation of a sort, Steven?
stevenaia Michinaga: so when I break, it;s a break into reality
doug Sosa: and what kind of drawing? I am envious.
stevenaia Michinaga: I design buidling
stevenaia Michinaga: buildings
Maxine Walden: architecture?
doug Sosa: more envious. something real and worthwhile.
Maxine Walden: oh, Doug?
stevenaia Michinaga: seems there are more software architects here, so I wouldn;t want to offent them
stevenaia Michinaga: well actually I would
Quilty Bookmite: Offend away. :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I am an architect
stevenaia Michinaga: (the non- software kind)
Quilty Bookmite: My dad worked as a building services design engineer.
Quilty Bookmite: He hated architects. :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: ...smile... we know
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
doug Sosa: architecture today is so chaotic, room for creativity but maybe not much recogniton
stevenaia Michinaga: so I surrounf myself in the abstract that results in reality

We then had the option to go back to the 9 second practice

doug Sosa: but back to 9 sec and meditation.
Quilty Bookmite: You design on paper?
Quilty Bookmite: OK.
doug Sosa: 9 sec and a piece of paper can be a looong time.
stevenaia Michinaga: technology has caught up with creativity, but not the impacts of some of their imagination and sence of beauty

But it just felt right to also support the creativity of that the second strand of conversation, creativity/art/architecture, which did seem to offer some interesting meandering

Maxine Walden: we can have different strands of conversation at the same time if the architiecture theme is of interest
stevenaia Michinaga: I design on paper and in my computer,
Quilty Bookmite: So what do you think of the software you use?
Quilty Bookmite: Software is, unfortunately, inescapeable. :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: I use a few different ones, depending on what I am doing
doug Sosa: My impression is that the software biases towards staight lines. Though now we have the Geary style airplane software for odd shapes.
Quilty Bookmite: Straight lines are easier to model.
stevenaia Michinaga: but Google Sketchup has a free version and worth downloading , I have aeen wondersul things in SL as well

Wol then joined us.

Quilty Bookmite: Hi Wol.
Wol Euler: hello all
Maxine Walden: welcome Wol
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Wol
stevenaia Michinaga: I am in aww of the creativity I have seen in buildings here
Maxine Walden: we are talking about arthcitecture software and mediatation sort of
Wol Euler: ah :)
Maxine Walden: architecture
stevenaia Michinaga: this place is a great example example
Quilty Bookmite: Stevenaia - you are a professional. You could unleash your creativity here.
stevenaia Michinaga: I once was talking to a professor in college while he was designing and he explained that drawing is non-verble

I wondered about the previous strand, of meditation and the 9 sec practice which Doug had mentioned and the strands then wended back toward one another

Maxine Walden: doug, we could have another strand of conversation, you interested in mentioning the 9 sec practice?
Quilty Bookmite: One thing that amazes me about SL is that there is a free choice of building materials. You could build a completely solid skyscraper out of paper if you wanted.
Quilty Bookmite: So why is there so much boring looking shopping malls?
stevenaia Michinaga: I wonder the same thing
doug Sosa: the 9 sec and doing something like drawing intersts me. I like to get int the 9 sec without preparation, just take it as it comes, wherever and whatever I am.
stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t design ehre because I design in the other 20 hours of my day
Maxine Walden: what kind of experience does that give you, Doug?

Doug then gave us an example of how the 9 sec practice can be arresting in terms of change of perspective, midstream, so to speak:

doug Sosa: well, not easy to say, but imagine starting the 9 sec in the middle of a conversation with someone else
Quilty Bookmite: You just stop the conversation?
doug Sosa: I don't do anything to look like i am meditating(!) but i do take the detachment the 9 sec suggests. the other person becomes more real and more distant, easier to observe and less demanding.
Quilty Bookmite: And appear to zone out for 9 seconds?
doug Sosa: no, just keep doing what i am doing, but it isn't so much me, it is just one of the things going on.
Quilty Bookmite: Interesting. My words are coming through very late.
stevenaia Michinaga: i mentioned this the other day. but it would be impossible here, that was used to start a drawing and pass it on the the person to our right (usually during an office meeting) then the next person would continue, like a graphic conversation od sorts
Maxine Walden: a bit of lag, Quilty?
Quilty Bookmite: Yep.
doug Sosa: I love that idea. what would it take to do here? A floating whiteboard..
Quilty Bookmite: If you are talking at the time, do you carry on talking?
doug Sosa: Yes, keep talking, but much more observant and tolerant, so I am sure it shifts what I am saying.
Maxine Walden: braiding thoughts, we seem to be having...
Quilty Bookmite: Stevenaia has gone.
doug Sosa: We can try it right here. So I just did, and what i noticed right away was the circle of the cushions were much more pronounced. a circle of circles, and then the colors of our clothes.
doug Sosa: ouch yes. gone.
Maxine Walden: doug, seems you are mentioning have shifting perspectives on your conversation partner as well as youself...ah
Maxine Walden: ouch?

Steven suddenly disappeared.

doug Sosa: ouch yes for steven's going. yes, perspective on partner shifts quite readically.
Quilty Bookmite: Probably just disconnected.
Adams Rubble is Online
Maxine Walden: likely so, disconnected, but interesting that sometimes we may take it personally when another leaves suddenly
doug Sosa: ah, back?
Wol Euler: wb steve
Maxine Walden: oh, you are back Steve
Quilty Bookmite: So why does the 9 seconds have such an impact? I don;t think anything that unusual is being done.
stevenaia Michinaga: I wasn;t sure If I crashed or was lagging to the point my words never appeared
Quilty Bookmite: You just disappeared.

Adams joined us.

Wol Euler: hello adams!
Quilty Bookmite: hi Adams.
doug Sosa: well, the 9 sec is a time to let go of all assumptions so in the middle of a conversation, which tends to be a bit driven towards some goal, it is a real shift.
Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
Maxine Walden: hi, Adams
doug Sosa: hi adams!
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi adams
Quilty Bookmite: I agree it's a real shift. That is the surprising thing to me. It speaks volumes for the way we normally think and observe.
doug Sosa: Yes!
Quilty Bookmite: That we are somehow oblivious to what is going on around us.
Maxine Walden: yes, so many assumptions we are not aware of
doug Sosa: or in front of us.
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: some wonder if 9 secs is to short
Maxine Walden: we become so focussed and thus lose touch with the wider reality

Once again, Doug's comment seemed arresting to consider:

doug Sosa: and it changes courage. while talking to someone and starting the nine sec, i notice its much easier to see into their eyes.
stevenaia Michinaga: I think any "tool" of used enough becomes a skill
Quilty Bookmite: Yes. The 9 seconds stretches itself. :-)
Quilty Bookmite: Observing the world the way you do in the 9 seconds may become a habit for the rest of the 15 minutes.
doug Sosa: It certainly does. the whole rest of time rather quickly, a few months, becaosme much looser and flexible and present and less dire.
doug Sosa: "becomes"
stevenaia Michinaga: the sharpening of the tool..
Maxine Walden: seems we are saying that we are seeing clearer, and releasing from our assumptions and tight focus during the 9 sec
stevenaia Michinaga: aww, I must go, I'm sure we will continue soon, thanks

Steve has to leave the group and Doug does as well.

Quilty Bookmite: And that with time that releasing of assumptions happens outside the 9 seconds.
Adams Rubble: Bye Steve
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Stevenaia.
doug Sosa: me too.. bye.
Quilty Bookmite: Bye Doug.
Adams Rubble: bye Doug

Wondering about Wol and Adams who have been silent so far I wonder aloud

Maxine Walden: Wol, Adams, care to join in? Bye Steve and doug
Wol Euler: sorry, I'm caught in a fascinating and worrying IM :-) Listening and will contribute on occasion.
Adams Rubble: I missed what began the conversation :)
Quilty Bookmite: Architecture I think. :-)
Maxine Walden: right, I know how it is to try to join a conversation going, various ways of thinking about the 9 sec and aspects of creativity...yes architecture
Adams Rubble loves architecture :)
Quilty Bookmite: Do you build here Adams?
Adams Rubble: Oh, that kind...I am starting to learn but have been too busy
Quilty Bookmite: Actually it was the real kind that started things.

We mention the earlier topics of the session to catch Adams and Wol up, and then some interesting considerations about SL architectural endeavors

Quilty Bookmite: Building here I think is to lose some of the restrictions that are imposed on RL architecture.
Adams Rubble: Like gravity :)
Maxine Walden: Steven is an architect, and doug loves to draw...
Quilty Bookmite: Yep And strength of materials. :-)
Adams Rubble: Oh I did not that about Steve
Wol Euler: but also acquires many others, like the difficulty of controlling the camera to get a decent view in small spaces
Maxine Walden: yes, like gravity
Wol Euler: and tehz awkwardness of av motion
Adams Rubble: yes Wol
Quilty Bookmite: Lost another line.
Wol Euler: rooms need to be at least twice as large in SL as in RL, maybe three times, for av comfort.
Adams Rubble: Yes
Maxine Walden: interesting, I have not yet built in SL, interesting perspectives

Adams then mentions having read the log from the Sunday morning guardians' meeting

Adams Rubble: I am a bit distracted. I just read the log from this morning before coming to the session
Quilty Bookmite: What if you build your room out of glass?
Quilty Bookmite: Or water?
Adams Rubble: From the guardian meeting
Quilty Bookmite: Was it that bad?
Maxine Walden: yes, Adams...distracted?
Adams Rubble: No it was very interested. I wrote a note to the group
Adams Rubble: interesting
Wol Euler: it was pretty emotional.
Adams Rubble: yes, I see that

And her discomfort at being mentioned in the meeting (she was not at the meeting) (No, it wasn't quite discomfort but more of an interest in that i was brought up as an example--Adams)

Adams Rubble: and I was mentioned
Adams Rubble: I think it was good for the group to discuss this and I wish I had been there
Quilty Bookmite: How do you feel about that Adams?
Maxine Walden: you mention writing a message to the group or about the discussion, that may be a way to 'be there'
Adams Rubble: Yes Maxine
Adams Rubble: Quilty, about which?
Quilty Bookmite: about your mention in the meeting.
Adams Rubble: Well I am wondering if people are seeing something about me that I don't know about yet
Adams Rubble: That's a bit worrysome
Quilty Bookmite: I knew that would pop up at an inappropriate moment. :-)
Adams Rubble: Eh?
Quilty Bookmite: It looks like they are concerned about you.

Wol then brings in more perspective

Wol Euler: if I may, I stayed on with Fael, Pema and Storm after the meeting officially broke up.
Wol Euler: Is that part in the record, Adams, what was said after?
Adams Rubble: No Wol
Wol Euler: well, Pema expressed great surprise at Fred's statements, invoking you as example, because you have advanced the furthest of us all.
Wol Euler: he quoted you "How wonderful to live on this planet" (I'm vaguely remembering) and asked if that sounded like someone who was suffering.
Adams Rubble: Thanks for sharing that, Wol...and thanks to Pema :)
Quilty Bookmite: Sorry, reading the transcript.

And another quote from the transcript of the meeting draws concern:

Quilty Bookmite: Institutionalised?!!!
Wol Euler nods.
Adams Rubble: But I am being distracted by RL issues right now and it will be a bit of a challenge in the next few weeks for me
Quilty Bookmite: :-)
Quilty Bookmite: I don;t think institutionalisation is a danger here.

I offer my thoughts about the distrubing term referred to in the log:

Maxine Walden: I read that as an expression of anxiety, and we are all vulnerable to being destabilized in this experience; I thought Fred was expressing a lot of pent up concern, and felt glad he could bring it out.
Quilty Bookmite: PaB makes you more aware of life around you.
Adams Rubble: Yes Maxine
Quilty Bookmite: Yes, destabalisation is a potential problem. With any meditation like practice.

Aware that I had another meeting in about 10 minutes I mention my need to leave soon; but we also are mentioning the destabilizing potential of PaB but any meditation

Maxine Walden: (I will have to leave in a few minutes, just to mention ahead of time)
Quilty Bookmite: OK Maxine.
Adams Rubble: I think it was a very useful meeting
Maxine Walden: but when we discuss these concerns it would be good to have as many of us who can be there, to share experiences and speak about our perspectives
Quilty Bookmite: OK, as a general point here. I have a meditation practice so I am as vulnerable as anyone to potentially being destabilised.
Maxine Walden: not trying to say 'must come' just that it is so helpful for these discussions to have those concered present
Quilty Bookmite: however, I do have a teacher I can go to for spiritual advice.

And then an important question:

Quilty Bookmite: So in PaB, if things start to go wrong, who do you turn to?
Adams Rubble: Well, Quilty, there are quite a few people I would consider
Maxine Walden: yes, Quilty, I really agree, that we are vulnerable to being destabilized; knowing that can happen may in itself be a help. who to turn to in PaB? Maybe one of the guardians who one feels might be helpful...
Maxine Walden: or others...
Adams Rubble: I hate to name names because it leaves people out
Wol Euler nods. Fred's concerns are valid but he grossly overstates the case.
Adams Rubble: But Pema is watching out for each of us
Quilty Bookmite: That's the point Adams. If you don't name names, people don't know who best to turn to.

I felt badly that I had to leave at this point in the conversation

Maxine Walden: oh, golly, I have to go and will take the log. Would someone like to take any further log and attach it?
Quilty Bookmite: Pema is certainly a good candidate. :-)
Adams Rubble: Well in addition to Pema, there is Stim
Adams Rubble: Yes Maxine
Quilty Bookmite: I need to go in 5 minutes.
Maxine Walden: Adams, will you take the rest?
Adams Rubble: yes Maxine
Maxine Walden: thanks, bye then for now.
Wol Euler: bye maxine

In my hurry to tidy things up, take the chatlog and get to my next meeting I only later read the rest of this chatlog about who do we turn to for help and other related items (Adams note: I was uncomfortable naming names. There are many others for whom I turned to help in this group at various times. If something is bothering us, we look for different perspectives to help us figure out what is right for us rather than depending on one person. However we can learn to trust some people's judgement, and understanding of what we are experiencing, more than others. That doesn't mean that I value the opinions of people I didn't name less. That means that I think we all must determine for ourselves.)

Adams Rubble: bye Maxine and I would consider you too :)
Quilty Bookmite: Should these people be named, or ranked, or would that destroy the appearance of democracy?
Wol Euler: alphabetical.
Wol Euler: if named
Adams Rubble: I just tried to answer your question Quilty
Quilty Bookmite: i have the same label as Pema but I don;t have his qualifications.
Adams Rubble: What do mean label?
Quilty Bookmite: Thank you Adams.
Quilty Bookmite: I mean, it's one thing to name a few people now, but how does that help the new practitioner who is not in this meeting?
Adams Rubble: Oh
Adams Rubble: I think if one of us recognized a problem then we might refer them to someone
Quilty Bookmite: Good point Adams.

And as an example of the collapse into confusion, which can occur when times runs out and thinking stops, I erroneously as Adams if she can take the chatlog, forgetting she was not there for the whole session and that I could retrieve the chatlog from my hard disc.  Sorry, Adams!! (another example of how we can lose touch with our own resources when under pressure)

Maxine Walden: Adams I am having trouble saving and copying the log; could you just email me the whole thing?
Quilty Bookmite: Is it enough?
Adams Rubble: and Pema reads the logs
Adams Rubble: I wasn't here