2008.06.04 13:00 - Babbling Brooks

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    That afternoon, Caledonia was our main guardian. I have added my comments below, to the chat log she provided.

    Fael Illyar: Hello Wol,Cal
    Wol Euler: hello Fael, Caledonia
    Caledonia Heron: hi there :)
    Caledonia Heron: would you care to join us Wol?
    Wol Euler: yes, I’m just trying to dress more appropriately :-)
    Wol Euler: Fael reminded me at short notice, I came from work.
    Caledonia Heron: ah ok, where do you work?
    Caledonia Heron: in sl?
    Wol Euler: yes, SL :-)
    Moon Fargis: hi wol
    Moon Fargis: caledonia
    Fael Illyar: Hello Moon :)
    Caledonia Heron: hi Moon :)
    Moon Fargis: ahh fael.. long time not.. talked…
    Moon Fargis: talked
    Fael Illyar: Yes, Moon, I think it might have been 4 minutes ;)
    Moon Fargis: fael: really wow whats new then ?:)
    Wol Euler: hello Moon
    Caledonia Heron: what is that rotating object Moon?
    Moon Fargis: wich rotating object?
    Fael Illyar: Behind you I’d guess
    Moon Fargis: ahhh the dharma wheel
    Caledonia Heron: the one behind your avatar
    Isen Enzo: A wheel of dharma..

    In rapid succession many had gathered; Isen came in as number five.

    Caledonia Heron: hi Isen :)
    Wol Euler: hello Isen
    Isen Enzo: hello all.
    Faenik: why not?
    Wol Euler chuckles. Hello Faenik too.
    Faenik purrs to Wol.
    Caledonia Heron: did Fael tell you about the 9sec practice Wol?
    Isen Enzo: Wol, I don’t think we’ve met…
    Wol Euler: We haven’t met before; nor Moon or Cal. This is my second time here.
    Isen Enzo: Welcome
    Wol Euler: Fael pointed me at the blog, and I attended a session on the weekend.
    Caledonia Heron: yes, for sure, welcome
    Moon Fargis: ahyes then welcome:)
    Caledonia Heron: we’re a friendly lot
    Moon Fargis: wol: are you in buddhism ?
    Isen Enzo: Fael, what’s the nine second practice? A mini-meditation..?
    Isen Enzo: I am Soto Zen..
    Isen Enzo: Lay ordained last December..
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I see it as a kind of mini-meditation
    Caledonia Heron: you can read about it at http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/ Isen
    Wol Euler: mmmm, no. I meditate and try to be mindful, but that’s as far as it goes.
    Isen Enzo: ah- thanks Cal!

    Cal summed it all up quite nicely:

    Caledonia Heron: yes, a compression of meditation perhaps to go to the heart of it
    Faenik: could be
    Wol Euler: But that is as far as I go with any other religion too, so perhaps yes? :-)
    Moon Fargis: wol: then take buddhism as a teaching )
    Isen Enzo: well- your right! Meditation and mindfulness is really about all it is….
    Isen Enzo: !!!
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Isen Enzo: about as far as it goes…
    Wol Euler: you laugh, but other Buddhists have said the same :-)
    Fael Illyar: I think I’m doing meditation and the 9 sec explorations zen-style myself.
    Isen Enzo: It’s true..
    Wol Euler: most religions’ core teachings can be expressed in a single sentence.
    Isen Enzo: ?
    Moon Fargis: ohyes zen buddthims even in a word :)
    Fael Illyar: Zen?
    Caledonia Heron: ok, I’m game - what’s the word?
    Moon Fargis: fael: sit
    Fael Illyar: the word is “sit”?
    Moon Fargis: yep sit
    Moon Fargis: bot soon you will se its meaningless to so maybe ” “
    Wol Euler: Blaise Pascal would have liked that.
    Isen Enzo: In Zen I like to say what we practice is….
    Isen Enzo: ! sit down….
    Isen Enzo: 2 be still..
    Isen Enzo: 3 pay attention…
    Isen Enzo: ta taaaaa!!!
    Wol Euler nods.
    Isen Enzo: thats what we practice..
    Moon Fargis: yes :) sitting o a cussion
    Isen Enzo: takes lots of practice….
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: and then there apparently are sutras that are supposed to make increasigly more sense as you meditate more and more.
    Moon Fargis smiles

    Isen started handing out some of his zen notes

    Wol Euler: thank you Isen!
    Isen Enzo: I got a lot of notes….
    Wol Euler smiles encouragingly :-)
    Isen Enzo: I pass one round each zazen session…
    Isen Enzo: (sometimes avs read them during zazen, I think…)
    Wol Euler blushes guiltily.
    Caledonia Heron: I’m a little lost but learning
    Fael Illyar: am I not getting note?
    Isen Enzo: no end to it…
    Isen Enzo: sure..
    Isen Enzo: here you go..
    Isen Enzo gave you 4-17-08 What We Practice.
    Moon Fargis: thy isen
    Caledonia Heron: ty Isen, reading…
    Wol Euler: I belonged to a group that met to meditate on the Internet, a year ago. It was a great encouragement to “sit” in a group and be able to discuss how it worked or didn’t.
    Isen Enzo: sure
    Fael Illyar: ah, yes, thank you :)
    Fael Illyar: These meetings usually work for that I think :)
    Wol Euler: And to learn that the sessions I found disapopointing at fierst, where I had great difficulty clearing my mind, where in fact common if not usual :-)
    Isen Enzo: brb
    Caledonia Heron: hmmm
    Fael Illyar: I haven’t noticed much difficulty in clearing my mind yet.
    Moon Fargis: wol: clearing your mind isnt something you are able todo completley in a few weeks
    Moon Fargis: of daylypractise ofcourse
    Moon Fargis: this takes time

    Cal added a word of caution, and of questioning.

    Caledonia Heron: seems like a lot of process in that explanation
    Fael Illyar: I wonder if I’ve been subconsciously been doing something similar for a while.
    Wol Euler: Well, yes, that is of course true.
    Caledonia Heron: for sure :)
    Fael Illyar: I’ve been putting a lot of effort in trying to keep from lying to myself over the years. Could it be that?
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Caledonia Heron: the ideas of effort or it’s hard seem antithetical
    Moon Fargis: well lying sourself in what way?
    Fael Illyar: Well, any way I could find.
    Faenik: ah :)
    Moon Fargis: wha wy do you think you did so ?
    Caledonia Heron: the mind is mischievious :)
    Fael Illyar: I’m not sure. I don’t remember anymore why I started.
    Fael Illyar: But it’s been an interesting dance sometimes. Dancing around myself and trying to catch myself.
    Moon Fargis: well feal.. imaybe lying yourself might we a wrong term.. becasue that says that there must be a truth
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Moon Fargis: and i think the truth you belived in where those things you notice as reality
    Moon Fargis: but that is also just a lie
    Moon Fargis: so you lied yoursefl against a lie of your senses
    Moon Fargis: yeeep sounds wheird:)
    Caledonia Heron: pretty circulair logic there :)
    Fael Illyar: Part of what I’m going for is also noticing when I simply don’t know enough to say if something could be called true or not

    Isen took another circular interpretation.

    Isen Enzo: ZZZZZZZZZ
    Moon Fargis: isen
    Isen Enzo: oop
    Moon Fargis: ~`~*Rooaarr*~`~
    Isen Enzo: sorry..
    Isen Enzo: Was I snoring?
    Moon Fargis: noo ou just pressed the Z key to often
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Fael Illyar: Although, I don’t regard truth as an absolute.
    Fael Illyar: things are not that neatly organized
    Wol Euler: I think there is a difference between Truth and “things that are true”.
    Caledonia Heron: truth is truth - pretty absolute
    Caledonia Heron: it’s true or it’s not
    Fael Illyar: The truth is not the right word to use here.
    Moon Fargis: well
    Moon Fargis: true true its “or”
    Moon Fargis: truth
    Moon Fargis: why not call the truth being ?:)
    Isen Enzo: I had a teacher once who said “There is no absolute!!”
    Caledonia Heron: not a drinker, eh? :)
    Isen Enzo: maybe he said…. there is NO absolute…
    Wol Euler: my point exactly, Isen.
    Caledonia Heron: or maybe he ran out :)
    Isen Enzo: lol
    Isen Enzo: yup
    Wol Euler: What he said is true, but it is not the truth.
    Isen Enzo: yup
    Isen Enzo: its elusive..

    Indeed, truth seemed to be quite elusive in this conversation . . . .

    Moon Fargis: define: truth :)
    Isen Enzo: and dependent..
    Fael Illyar: I think we are dealing with heavily overloaded words here
    Moon Fargis: true
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Isen Enzo: over the load limit!!
    Isen Enzo: all I can carry!!!
    Isen Enzo: oof!
    Moon Fargis looks out of the window and watches a tree waving in the wind “well i found truth”
    Wol Euler is not actually typing, her av is just stuck. Being untruthful.
    Isen Enzo: I took vows recently, but they are really impossible…
    Fael Illyar: but it’s a good point, lying to yourself is … a bit paradoxical expression
    Isen Enzo: really..
    Isen Enzo: I mean- “don’t kill” for example…
    Isen Enzo: how to do that?
    Isen Enzo: breathe and microbes bite the dust!
    Isen Enzo: drink water samesame..
    Caledonia Heron: the level of granularity here is astounding :)
    Isen Enzo: I was a vegetarian once…
    Fael Illyar: just be and microbes are biting the dust
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Caledonia Heron: did you want it to say don’t kill people?
    Isen Enzo: people told be vegetables had a life…
    Isen Enzo: so I ate fruit and nuts…
    Isen Enzo: then they told me fruits and nuts are the unborn young…
    Wol Euler: Pythagorus claimed to be able to remember a previous life in which he was a cucumber
    Isen Enzo: geez..
    Isen Enzo: need to photosynthisize..
    Caledonia Heron: things become untenable when broken down too far it would appear

    So it seemed.

    Isen Enzo: truth is somethings gotta die for me to live..
    Isen Enzo: the precepts really mean, I think, to honor and value life…
    Caledonia Heron: yes the literalism is not workable
    Fael Illyar: as in “don’t kill, unless you can’t avoid it”?
    Isen Enzo: no absolute- gotta figure thisstuff out as it comes..
    Isen Enzo: no one answer fits all questions…
    Isen Enzo: It’s a bummer…
    Caledonia Heron: you could just be here now without all that stuff :)
    Isen Enzo: gotta think for ourselves..
    Isen Enzo: geez..
    Moon Fargis: oh there is an allreound awnser for al questions isen
    Isen Enzo: no help …
    Fael Illyar: am I seeing someone complaining about having to think for himself :P
    Moon Fargis: oh this keboard
    Moon Fargis: bb
    Isen Enzo: gotta do the best we can with what we got at the time…
    Isen Enzo: i think that’s it..
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Fael Illyar: I think those vows are like that because they’re designed for people who don’t want to think. And therefore would most likely misunderstand the vows as they really should be.
    Isen Enzo: Are we all still here?
    Isen Enzo: ah
    Isen Enzo: yes
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, listening and thinking.
    Isen Enzo: yes.

    Somehow math appeared in the conversation.

    Moon Fargis: 0+0=1
    Caledonia Heron: it seems like a construct for guidance
    Isen Enzo: yes..
    Isen Enzo: gotta try anyhow..
    Fael Illyar: Those who think, will figure them out for themselves :)
    Isen Enzo: each time probably a little different…
    Isen Enzo: odds are good..
    Moon Fargis: hmm isen.. what would expalin zen in math better: 0+0=1 or 1+0=0
    Isen Enzo: I don’t know….
    Fael Illyar: why not 0 + 0 = 0?
    Wol Euler: perhaps: 0+0=1 <- true
    Isen Enzo: could be…
    Wol Euler: 1+1=1 <- also true
    Isen Enzo: depends..
    Moon Fargis: okay thenn 1=0
    Wol Euler: for certain values of “1″, yes.
    Fael Illyar: I think that’s better, yes
    Fael Illyar: oh wait wait, it needs to be self referential
    Wol Euler: and that is where we started: no absolutes, not even the statement that there are none
    Isen Enzo: I found an interesting thing about the Buddha image….
    Faenik: could be
    Caledonia Heron: you guys speak another language to me :)

    From math to languages . . .

    Isen Enzo: It comes from greece….
    Moon Fargis: cal: ein das kann nicht sein
    Isen Enzo: greco buddhism…
    Isen Enzo: yes.
    Caledonia Heron: bueno :)
    Isen Enzo: The Buddha wanted no image…
    Isen Enzo: and there was none for a long time..
    Isen Enzo: maybe only a wheel…
    Isen Enzo: like Moon’s..
    Fael Illyar: I think I finally figured out why the book Gödel Escher Bach - an Eternal Golden Braid included things about Zen.
    Isen Enzo: or an empty footprint..
    Isen Enzo: but when it went to greece…
    Isen Enzo: they made gods in their own image..
    Fael Illyar: The whole book is about self referential things, Gödel for self referential math, Escher for self referential paintings and Bach for music
    Isen Enzo: and made a buddha image..
    Moon Fargis: oh ise are you try to figure out where the first buddhs statues where made?
    Isen Enzo: like apollo…
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Isen Enzo: thats why the curly hair..
    Wol Euler: hmmmmm
    Isen Enzo: as it went back to asia… the image..
    Fael Illyar: Zen fits the mix quite well :)
    Isen Enzo: it got stylized…
    Isen Enzo: to the goofy little curls…
    Isen Enzo: look it up on wikipedia- greco buddhism art…
    Isen Enzo: very cool..
    Moon Fargis: isen: i just asked a student i religion historics who was it who made the first statues/images of buddha
    Isen Enzo: I’ll be quiet now..

    Famous last words . . .

    Moon Fargis: he seid it came from the india.. they just modified one of their goddnes
    Fael Illyar: The statues are likely the number one thing that kept me from looking deeper into Zen by myself.
    Isen Enzo: look it up- the earliest images came from greece/macedonia/afganistan area..
    Moon Fargis: ahyes
    Isen Enzo: really the image is only a stylized aware being- not a particular being…..
    Caledonia Heron: lol, maybe cuz that’s where the party started :)
    Isen Enzo: not really how Siddhartha Goutama really looked..
    Isen Enzo: I mean- his name- Buddha- just means “aware one”
    Moon Fargis: is it important at all how he looked ?:)
    Isen Enzo: gotta look good!
    Isen Enzo: very important!
    Isen Enzo: oh yeah!
    Wol Euler: yes, I think so, compared to the way oher Indian gods look (for example)
    Wol Euler: the identifying attrtibutes: which kind of violence they wielded on whom etc
    Isen Enzo: yes hindu dieties..
    Isen Enzo: pretty odd..
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, and Christian saints too.
    Isen Enzo: Buddha, of course no god..
    Wol Euler: That most buddhas are in repose, empty-handed, and calm to happy-looking is significant
    Isen Enzo: yes.
    Isen Enzo: a calm, serene, aware being…
    Wol Euler: the image is a role model, as are the vows.
    Isen Enzo: yes- an ideal..
    Isen Enzo: something to aspire to..
    Fael Illyar: Well, it does convey the visible aspects of Buddha, yes.
    Wol Euler nods
    Isen Enzo: not worship…
    Isen Enzo: Well, I must go..
    Caledonia Heron: nice to hear your comments Isen :)

    Isen quietly continued :>).

    Isen Enzo: sorry to monopolize with buddhababble…
    Caledonia Heron: like a brook :)
    Isen Enzo: but I can’t help myself…
    Moon Fargis: you are our masterbabler isen dont worry
    Fael Illyar: Bye Isen :)
    Isen Enzo: babbblabababababa
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Isen Enzo: Wonderful being here playing with you all!!
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Caledonia Heron: yes, for sure :)
    Fael Illyar: As long as it’s fun, I don’t mind what we talk about ;)
    Moon Fargis: bye isen
    Wol Euler: I’ve njoyed this session, thank you Isen.
    Faenik: why not?
    Wol Euler: and fael and moon and cal too of course :-)
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Moon Fargis: ^^
    Fael Illyar: It’s not over yet, is it?
    Caledonia Heron: a few more minutes …any closing thoughts? of course everyone is welcome to stay as long as you like….forever :)

    The conversation circled back to Play as Being

    Fael Illyar: Did you try the PaB explorations yet Wol?
    Wol Euler: no, not yet.
    Fael Illyar: I’ve found them very useful.
    Wol Euler: I have great difficulty breaking up my work like that, I tend to get into “flow” and disappear for two hours or more.
    Fael Illyar: Nothing saying you can’t modify it a bit to suit yourself :)
    Fael Illyar: No need to do them all the day for example
    Wol Euler grins.
    Wol Euler: It is a good idea, and I will work out a way that suits me.
    Caledonia Heron: yes I think we all do Wol :)
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: I’m doing them all day myself but it does get distracting sometimes.
    Fael Illyar: although, strangely, I find myself less distracted now that I’ve been doing them for a while
    Fael Illyar: I do one and it doesn’t feel like it really made much of an effect to my flow.
    Wol Euler: hmmm, do you set a timer or something to trigger yoou when to do it?
    Caledonia Heron: I’m gonna have to look up this flow thing :)
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: I have a sound playing every 15 minutes
    Moon Fargis: “NOOOOOWWW!”
    Fael Illyar: the flow being workflow, flow of thinking.
    Fael Illyar: for example programming, it’s what you were building.
    Caledonia Heron: oh, that flow :)
    Wol Euler: yep
    Caledonia Heron: thought you were back in the buddhababble :)
    Fael Illyar: distractions make you forget large parts of it
    Caledonia Heron: thank you for a lovely discussion….I have another meeting now :)
    Fael Illyar: and slow you down that way
    Wol Euler: yes, that is why I hesitate.
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you Cal
    Moon Fargis: ok who logs this one?
    Wol Euler: ah, bye cal, nice meeting you.
    Fael Illyar: Cal I think
    Wol Euler: great pants, by the way :-)
    Caledonia Heron: I do , thanks :)
    Moon Fargis: ok then i also will continue build the hermitage
    Caledonia Heron: :)
    Caledonia Heron: adios

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