Thorberg was the guardian that evening. He sent me the following chat log. The comments are mine.
When I arrived at the pavilion, it was still empty, but not for long. Steve walked in soon, followed by Friedrich.
Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
stevenaia Michinaga: hi pema
stevenaia Michinaga: we the only one’s here?
Pema Pera: so far, yes
Pema Pera: It is Thorberg’s watch, but I haven’t seem his yet; should come soon
stevenaia Michinaga: were you at Dharma’s earlier?
Pema Pera: earlier?
Pema Pera: Isn’t it tomorrow?
stevenaia Michinaga: her chat starts at 6
Pema Pera: Not tomorrow???
stevenaia Michinaga: oh right
stevenaia Michinaga: I jsut cliced throught the notive
stevenaia Michinaga: forgot to read it
Pema Pera: Couldn’t come last week; would have hated to have missed it again!
stevenaia Michinaga: clicked through the notice
Pema Pera: Hi Fred!
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hi there! the night shift (for me)
stevenaia Michinaga: the conversations is strangely foreign to me
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Pema Pera: foreign, Steve?
stevenaia Michinaga: the book discussed in Dharma’s group.. how to cope with things, deadth loss, etc
The part above is from my chat log; at this point Thorberg came in, so from here on I am using his log, with my comments added.
Pema Pera: Hi Thorberg!
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hi thorberg
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello, everyone
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Thorberg
Pema Pera: Steve, I thought you mentioned you (or we as a group) felt happier talking about anger and unhappiness than happiness :)
Pema Pera: So dharma’s topics should be just on target then ?
Pema Pera: (half joking half serious)
stevenaia Michinaga: that is why she chose it…smile
Pema Pera: :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: a friend of mine, who unfortunately is not on SL , had a discussion with me about how she blames herself for the current demise of her children… looking back is something that serves only as an example to learn from and seems to be the antithisis of Being
stevenaia Michinaga: how does one explain how to let go of that self blame
stevenaia Michinaga: oh, by the way, and I don;t eman this as a joke,m but she is very Chatolic
stevenaia Michinaga: Catholic
Pema Pera: Yes, I wish we could hand over the “there is no problem” insight to others, like a present — wouldn’t that be nice!
stevenaia Michinaga: other than reading the book in Dharma’s discussion group perhaps
Pema Pera: But we seem to all have to discover that for ourselves . . . .
Pema Pera: we can hand over pointers, but not the insight itself
Pema Pera: like in math discussions
stevenaia Michinaga: that kind of “moving on” and letting go” does not come easilly for some
Pema Pera: for most
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, true
Pema Pera: for all
Pema Pera: Even though I know, that doesn’t mean it’s always easy
Pema Pera: The main thing I’ve learned is to see my tendency to not let go
Pema Pera: and then not to linger with it very long
Pema Pera: but it’s always there it seems . . . .
Pema Pera: . . . probably as long as we are human
stevenaia Michinaga: it was just something that crossed my path today…..
Pema Pera: talking about paths:
Pema Pera: I have to be on my way
Pema Pera: just wanted to say hi
Pema Pera: have an early lunch appointment in Tokyo
Pema Pera: again with open source virtual word developers
Thorberg Nordlicht: glad you could stop by
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: enjoy
stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy
Pema Pera: Thanks again, Thor, for taking over this session!
Thorberg Nordlicht: no problem
Pema Pera: And thanks, Fred, for sharing all your Wiki experience!
stevenaia Michinaga: syl sends her hugs
Pema Pera: please return them Steve!
Pema Pera: Syl has been wonderful, in showing us the way to the right wiki :)
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: anytime. im confident it will all work out
Pema Pera: c u all!
stevenaia Michinaga: bye
I left, and Fred and Steve start a very interesting conversation about time and choice.
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: stevenaia: not to pry, but do you think that catholocism is a help or a hinderance in this situation?
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: is your friend finding compassion and support, or hostility and guilt?
stevenaia Michinaga: not a clue, spouse is jewish and wnet to catholic HS, we joke that she majored and minored in guilt
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: snicker.
stevenaia Michinaga: all I know it it weighs on her, what she feels are her past mistakes
stevenaia Michinaga: but it doesn not allow her to make changes that willa ffect her own outlook
stevenaia Michinaga: the “letting go” seems to be dificult
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i guess it depends alot on how she likes to learn
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: in terms of finding the appropriate path
stevenaia Michinaga: pema eluded to paths… and I assume choices, I often wonder how each of us choose in life, what directs choice from within , how choices affect being
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: you /could/ flip it around - talk about our choices as what defines us in the first place
stevenaia Michinaga: I try to keep things simple for myself
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: not sure if that simplifies anything though ;-)
stevenaia Michinaga: flip a coin and go, or ponder the next choice..for a lifetime
stevenaia Michinaga: I usually see the decisions before me as waht fate presents, I choose
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: likely important to recognize the choices, however you decide.
stevenaia Michinaga: if being is what is “now” then is “next” and what you choose the being of the future, of is it happilly jsut the same , being now being then, bring what’s ahead
stevenaia Michinaga: I missed a couple of letters there
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: if all that exists is the present, the past is as maleable as the future…
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i forget where I got that quote - i’ll try to look it up
stevenaia Michinaga: I find that comforting
stevenaia Michinaga: some fear the future as much as the past decisions
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: I find it hard to take seriously, and I’m not always sure what it means, but it helps me sometimes
stevenaia Michinaga: hard to take what seriously?
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: the notion that the past is entirely maleable
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: we reconstruct it all the time
stevenaia Michinaga: you mean the past or out percetion of it
stevenaia Michinaga: perception
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: and the difference? in practice?
Thor brings up the question of how we experience the past.
Thorberg Nordlicht: is our “perception” of the past the same as our “memory” of the past? Is the “past” anything more than memory?
stevenaia Michinaga: it’s all a matter of perspective, I doubt any past can be accuratly reconstructed from the incomplete memories of even a large group
stevenaia Michinaga: but may views of the same past can be
Thorberg Nordlicht: but even if we *could* reconstruct the past, our “reconstruction” is still a mental construct, right?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Thorberg Nordlicht: seems to me, the most we can do is interpret our own experience regardless of whether or not the past still exists in some way beyond our knowledge
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i think the past can be useful to learn from . dwelling on it is a tough habbit to break - but really important
Thorberg Nordlicht: Our knowledge is limited to memory and interpretation.
stevenaia Michinaga: how do you explain the past to someone who sees it more than am image but as a cause or the “bad thing that cna;t be changed”
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: hmm… tough call. i suppose it depends alot on how they already look at the world
stevenaia Michinaga: it;s the “holding on” that’s the difficult habbit to rid yourself of
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i approach these kinds of questions hyper-rationally, but that doesn’t help/convince many
Thorberg Nordlicht: In your friend’s Catholic belief system, the way out of the dilemma is the seek and receive forgiveness. If her beliefs hold her responsible for past actions, but she can’t accept forgiveness within her belief system and she can’t step out of her belief system, I’d say she’s trapped.
stevenaia Michinaga: agreed, hoping for insight, that may help actually
stevenaia Michinaga: forgiving yourself
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: but, learning not to fixate/focus on the negative is something that can improve, with practice
Thorberg Nordlicht: agreed
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: this is an interesting project i ran across recently - http://www.mindhabits.com/
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: in terms of the past, there are always counter-factuals to consider… it really always could have been worse
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: though, that might not be the most cheerful way of looking at things
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: i think thorberg is onto something, in terms of working w/in the belief system. there is a framework for letting go in christianity
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: and even a rich system for working through these ideas in its inner gnostic traditions
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I often wonder if I am an optimist for always being satified with a result, or a pesimist for keeping the outcome attainable and always being happy with the result
Thorberg Nordlicht: :)
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: heh. the scales of justice
Time to say goodbye. I look forward to seeing a continuation of these time discussions!
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: anyway, i have to get going. pleasure chatting.
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks Fried
Thorberg Nordlicht: ok, Friedrich; glad you could stop by
Friedrich Ochsenhorn: be well. (or, just Be)
stevenaia Michinaga: ..smile
stevenaia Michinaga: apprieciate your insight
Thorberg Nordlicht: sure; just got lucky
stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes luck and fate ARE the key
Thorberg Nordlicht: true
stevenaia Michinaga: didn;t mean to monopolize things
Thorberg Nordlicht: not at all
Thorberg Nordlicht: This discussion brings up a number of relevant issues.
stevenaia Michinaga: we can call it a night, almost an hour..
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for hosting
Thorberg Nordlicht: sure
Thorberg Nordlicht: thanks for stopping by
stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon
Thorberg Nordlicht: see you next time
Thorberg Nordlicht: good night
