That night, soon after I entered the tea house, Storm Ayres walked in. Her being from Flanders, we naturally started off in Dutch.
Pema Pera: Hi Storm!
Storm Ayres: hi pema
Pema Pera: Hoe gaat het?
Storm Ayres: goed
Pema Pera: leuk je hier weer te zien!
Storm Ayres: :-)
Storm Ayres: blij terug te zijn
Fael Illyar: Hello
Storm Ayres: hello
Pema Pera: Wow, Fael, what an appearance!
Storm Ayres: nice
Pema Pera: hungry?
Fael Illyar: Just a dragon I use sometimes :)
Pema Pera: quite spectacular!
Pema Pera: Fael have you met Storm yet, Storm Ayres?
Fael Illyar: No, not yet, Hello Storm :)
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Fael had joined us as an impression little dragon, all purple except for a little yellow stripe in front.
Pema Pera: We have a Northern European meeting here :)
Storm Ayres: hello fael
Pema Pera: Belgium, Holland, and Finland
Fael Illyar: Ah :)
Pema Pera: Not so surprising, given that the Americans are asleep . . . .
Fael Illyar: Yes, I guess they tend to sleep now :)
Storm Ayres: he he no
Pema Pera: that will wake us up!
Dragon Fael had just demonstrated spewing some fire straight ahead, over the area where the tea water was boiling.
Pema Pera: now we dont’ have to worry that the wood fire might go out . . . .
Storm Ayres: :-)
Pema Pera: we have our own purple lighter!
Fael Illyar: purple-yellow :)
Pema Pera: even better!
Pema Pera: Storm, have you gotten any chance to have a look at our blog perhaps? http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/
Storm Ayres: yes i did
Pema Pera: there is a lot of stuff there . . . . .
Storm Ayres: follow the meetings at it
Faenik: なるほど^^
Pema Pera: it must take a lot of time to read it, even part of it!
Storm Ayres: yes there is a lot to read
Pema Pera: does it make some sense?
Storm Ayres: yes it’s
Fael Illyar: Quite a lot, yes :)
Pema Pera: in between the lavish amounts of nonsense :)
Storm Ayres: :-)
I’m always happily surprised to see the PaB blog actually being read, given the massive amount of material collected on it by now.
Pema Pera: Is there anything you’d like to comment upon, or ask about, or just something you enjoyed reading?
Storm Ayres: i found the 9 seconds thing good
Pema Pera: did you try it a few times?
Storm Ayres: yes
Storm Ayres: but it’s all chaos in my head
Storm Ayres: does’nt work yet for me
Pema Pera: perhaps there is no way for it to “work” :-)
Pema Pera: at least at first
Storm Ayres: no i guess i have to do it more
Storm Ayres: it will come
Pema Pera: the main thing is to get into the swing of doing it regularly
Fael Illyar: It helps to set up an gong every 15 minutes
Pema Pera: yes, it’s nice to have a reminder
Storm Ayres: yes
Pema Pera: did you know that we have a gong here, Storm?
Pema Pera: since a week or so?
Storm Ayres: no
Storm Ayres: did’nt see it
Storm Ayres: was here yesterday in the garden
Storm Ayres: is’t there?
Fael Illyar: there was this mindfulness clock software most people could use, probably.
Peaceful came in and joined us as well.
Peaceful Navarathna: Hello, all. :-)
Pema Pera: Hi Peace!
Pema Pera: come join us
Storm Ayres: hello peace
Fael Illyar: Hello peace
Pema Pera: in a minute you will hear the gong here, Storm
Storm Ayres: ok
Peaceful Navarathna: I hope I’m not interrupting.
Storm Ayres: no
Pema Pera: not at all!
Fael Illyar: http://www.mindfulnessdc.org/mindfulclock.html
Pema Pera: These are our regular gettogethers, four times a day
Pema Pera: every six hours
Pema Pera: you’ve been here before, haven’t you, Paeceful?
Peaceful Navarathna: Just once, a few days ago, I think.
At that moment, our new gong reverberated over the landscape around the tea house.
Pema Pera: there it is!
Pema Pera: the gong
Pema Pera: thanks to Fael and Moon
Pema Pera: did you hear it, Storm?
Storm Ayres: no i hear the music
Peaceful Navarathna: My sound has gone. I’m going to need to relog. BRB.
Pema Pera: whap happens when you tried the 9-sec exploration, Storm, did you feel some kind of chaos?
Faenik: ah :)
Storm Ayres: not feeling..just thinking.there pop up a lot in my head if i try it
Pema Pera: Hi Holden!
Holden Henig: hi!
Storm Ayres: all things that not matter
Holden Henig: Surprused to see anyone here
Storm Ayres: hi holden
Holden Henig: hi everyone
Fael Illyar: Hello Holden
Holden Henig: hi
Holden Henig: :)
Peaceful Navarathna: Hello. :-)
Holden Henig: hi :)
Holden had joined us as well, so there were now five of us, quite a crowd for an 1 am SLT meeting. Peaceful had disappeared briefly, to correct his sound settings, and had then reappeared.
Pema Pera: Perhaps no reason to judge, Storm
Pema Pera: you can just watch
Pema Pera: wb Peaceful!
Pema Pera: perhaps the most important is to just do the 9-sec thing for a few days or even weeks
Pema Pera: without any expectation
Pema Pera: and therefore it is also nice to write down a few words
Pema Pera: each time you do it
Storm Ayres: yes
Pema Pera: in a note book or computer file
Pema Pera: have you tried that?
Storm Ayres: yes
Pema Pera: you may be surprised to see some patterns at the end of the day of what at first may have looked like chaos
Faenik: could be
Storm Ayres: so out off all the words that pop up in my head i most write some down?
Pema Pera: yes, just a few — that’s fine
Pema Pera: and it can be a few of the words that pop up
Pema Pera: or it can be your feeling about the whole 9 seconds
Pema Pera: or anything else that seems appropriate
Pema Pera: at first you can just be a tourist
Pema Pera: curiously looking at what you are doing in those 9 seconds
Pema Pera: as if you are visiting a strange new island
Pema Pera: and you see the natives doing something inscrutable
Pema Pera: and you just give your impression
Storm Ayres: a tourist in my own head..like that
Faenik: なるほど^^
Holden Henig: pema, I love that idea!
Pema Pera: to send back to your family at home
Pema Pera: which is yourself in RL in your normal state
Pema Pera: basically what we are doing is building bridges
Pema Pera: between waking and dreaming and PaBing and SL and RL and . . . . WAKING UP TO BEING
Pema Pera: hahaha
Pema Pera: but without making that into a goal
Pema Pera: Thanks, Holden!
I picked up on an earlier remark by Fael, about the zen story of Gutei’s finger
Pema Pera: Fael
Pema Pera: talking about waking up
Pema Pera: you asked about zen stories the other day
Pema Pera: I love zen stories. You had some questions?
Pema Pera: I’d be glad to give my angles on them
Fael Illyar: I wonder if there’s any left that I remember anymore … I might have to read a few again :)
Pema Pera: someone with one finger pointing or such
Pema Pera: what was the name
Fael Illyar: ah, that one I did ask about.
Fael Illyar: Gutei’s Finger was the name
Pema Pera: do you remember the story?
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Fael Illyar: http://www-usr.rider.edu/~suler/zenstory/gutei.html
I quickly read the story, about a boy mimicking a zen master who always put up one finger as a teaching. After the boy went around mimicking the master, one day the master grabbed the boy’s finger and cut it off.
Pema Pera: Pretty severe teaching!
Fael Illyar: Yes, quite so
Pema Pera: http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/glg/glg03.htm may be a better reference
Pema Pera: especially the poem at the end
Pema Pera: so many layers of meaning :)
Fael Illyar: Oh, the one I was reading is missing a part.
Pema Pera: where shall we start?
Pema Pera: This is from the Gateless Gate, the Mumonkan, a famous collection of zen stories
The first web link only contained the core of the story; the second web link gave the whole Mumonkan entry.
Pema Pera: well, what do you think is the interpretation? Or at least one aspect or part of it?
Faenik: could be
Pema Pera: It’s certainly refreshingly shocking — nothing abstract about it!
Fael Illyar: I guess it’s trying to say that imitation is the wrong approach.
Pema Pera: yes, indeed, that’s the first interpretation
Pema Pera: and a very important one.
Pema Pera: All that zen masers are doing is demonstrating their insight
Pema Pera: insight in the sense of what they see
Pema Pera: and if you don’t see what they are pointing at and just copy their behavior, you totally miss the point
Pema Pera: so Gutei showed the boy, and then the boy saw . . . .
Pema Pera: but again, if somebody else would copy THAT behavior, it would likely be wrong too, and just cruel
Pema Pera: Gutei cut off the finger at the point that he realized that the boy was ready to be shocked into seeing . . . .
Pema Pera: but the commentary then talks about there being no finger no boy no Gutei . . . .
Pema Pera: and that is another level of interpretation — not interpretation, but seeing, actually
Pema Pera: compared to REALLY seeing that there is no i no you no finger, cutting off a finger is peanuts, small change, small gesture — hence the “cheapening” in the commentary poem
Faenik: why not?
Pema Pera: I’m just giving my interpretation here which does not exhaust anything either of course
Pema Pera: I’m just trying to walk around and point from what I am able to see
Pema Pera: So Gutei said at the end of his life that he could not exhaust the teaching of Tenryu, his teacher
Pema Pera: so in that sense the poem says, in a playful way, that Gutei did not succeed himself as an imitator :-) — but of course, knowing that he could not exhaust it meant that Gutei could really see
Remembering the last two sessions, in which Dakini and I talked a lot, I had to smile.
Pema Pera: Hmmm, perhaps I am talking too much again :>). Is this somewhat helpful, Fael?
Fael Illyar: I guess it is, however, what would exhausting Tenryo’s teachings be?
Pema Pera: haha, many answers, you’re putting me on the spot :-)
Pema Pera: one answer would be: it can’t be exhausted
Pema Pera: another answer would be to not say anything but hold up a flower or the like
Pema Pera: or just go about your business, since everything IS already exhausted
Pema Pera: but you see, what you say and do is not important, but the base from which you talk/act
Pema Pera: If you have seen, even to a small amount, what Being is about, how it is the base of everything then you can respond
Pema Pera: and anything you say or do points at least in some way in the right direction
Pema Pera: and then you can deepen that insight
Pema Pera: the BIG challenge of what we are doing here is to get to that first step
Pema Pera: What they call in the traditions “transmission”
Pema Pera: which seems at first sight impossible in a virtual world . . . . .
Pema Pera: . . . but perhaps it is not impossible, we’ll see :-)
Pema Pera: am I making any sense at all?
Fael Illyar: Well, other than that I don’t have a clue what this “transmission” is, yes :)
Storm Ayres: :-)
Not easy to point out in a few words, given that the notion of a form of transmission is so much part of the whole tradition it is embedded in. The best example I could think of on the spot was that of mathematics.
Pema Pera: the best way I know of talking about it is like the way you “teach” someone mathematics
Pema Pera: A funny type of teaching — since you don’t pour knowledge from your head into that of the other
Pema Pera: you draw a few lines on paper
Pema Pera: speak a few sentences
Pema Pera: and ask “you see?”
Pema Pera: and the student most likely doesn’t
Pema Pera: and then you keep adding explanations in slightly different ways
Pema Pera: and then suddenly the student “sees”
Fael Illyar: From what I’ve seen most people end up learning imitation math.
Pema Pera: yes, and their fingers should be cut off ! ! ! !
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: sorry
Pema Pera: but yes, real understanding of math requires that you can see how you could have discovered a theorem yourself
Pema Pera: not only following
Storm Ayres: :-) i gtg guys..thx for the talk
Faenik loves wells!
Pema Pera: thanks for joining us, Storm!
Pema Pera: come back whenever you like!
Storm Ayres: i do
Storm left, and we continued
Pema Pera: so what is it that is conveyed, given, handed over in true math teaching?
Pema Pera: A kind of resonance?
Pema Pera: What do you think, Fael?
Fael Illyar: But yes, a good point, teaching math is somewhat similar to Zen. I’m starting to see why this one book sort of put them on the same level.
Pema Pera: of course, any metaphor is limited, like a finger ointing to the moon, math is the finger, seeing Being is the moon, but it gives an idea of direction
Pema Pera: and especially an idea of what it perhaps is not.
Pema Pera: you see, no matter what I say, you will very likely, almost certainly, continue to look for something, for some kind of insight — and that is not a bad thing in itself — but you’ll never ever succeed . . . . . . .
Pema Pera: . . . . and at some point you’ll stop, fail, give up in such a thorough way that you will see what is under your nose, has always been there
Pema Pera: but if I explain more about this now, it is likely to move away from the core . . . . so tricky . . . .
Fael Illyar: I think I sort of understand what you’re getting at.
Pema Pera: you are a beggar living in a simple hut, sleeping on the mud, with a chest full of gold burried a few inches below your head and you don’t have any idea . . . .. . . .
Pema Pera: this is a traditional image — I’m not making this up :-)
Fael Illyar: Hello Rajah
Pema Pera: I heard it many times myself
Pema Pera: and thought it was a nice story
Pema Pera: and I had some idea
Pema Pera: hi Rajah
Pema Pera: but then when I began to see what it was really pointing at
Fael Illyar: nice hat :)
Pema Pera: it was so shocking
Pema Pera: so different
Pema Pera: amazing
Pema Pera: and every few months I am shocked again at how different it is from what I thought was already different
Pema Pera: like Gutei,
Pema Pera: I can’t exhaust it :)
Rajah had walked in, briefly after Storm had left, so there were five of us again.
Rajah Yalin: hi, not to bre the stories intrrruption…
Fael Illyar: Ah, I think I finally get that “exhausting”
Pema Pera: oh, I’m just being talkative Rajah
Rajah Yalin: lol
Rajah Yalin: came back from nakamall sarly early, continue..
Pema Pera: Peace, is there something you’d like to add, ask, suggest?
Pema Pera: feel free to speak up anytime, we’re never trying to be polite here :)
Peaceful Navarathna: Not at the moment, no, but thank you.
Pema Pera: Fael,
Pema Pera: I suggest you sit with that exhaustion
Pema Pera: during your twenty minutes a day
Pema Pera: see whether you can get an idea of what it may be to stop
Peaceful Navarathna: Though it’s funny you mention mathematics; I’ve been working on the same problem until 5-something in the morning. :-)
Pema Pera: pehraps even _without_ exhaustion — just stop — no reason to follow the roundabout way of exhaustion — just STOP
Fael Illyar: the same problem?
Faenik: なるほど^^
Pema Pera: what kind of problem?
Peaceful Navarathna: It spans three notebooks thus far - a little hard to explain.
Pema Pera: math?
Peaceful Navarathna: Bayesian statistical analysis.
Pema Pera: fun!
Pema Pera: of what?
Peaceful Navarathna: Anything, really. We’re working in the abstract at the moment, though we do have some Amazonian fish we’ve applied it to. But I really don’t want to get too far afield, apologies. :-)
Pema Pera: Bayesian statistics is fascinating
Pema Pera: and its history too!
I made a suggestion for Fael, a brief three-line algorithmic script.
Pema Pera: Fael, here is a suggestion, since you like scripting.
Pema Pera: To try for the 20 minutes, for at least a few days
Pema Pera: Start by focusing on “stopping” whatever that may mean.
Pema Pera: Not literally stopping, like stopping your breath, that would be dangerous :)
Pema Pera: more like dropping
Pema Pera: any attachment any focus any friction any pushing any doing
Pema Pera: so that is line 1: stop
Pema Pera: line 2: look at who is trying to do the stopping
Pema Pera: line 3: drop the stopper
Pema Pera: drop whatever it is that wants to drop something
Pema Pera: so by doing that you are likely to have found a goto to line 1
As soon as you watch the stopper, the subject that tries to stop, you are likely to turn that one into a watched object. So then the question arising: who is watching that subject-turned-object? Can we drop that object, and then drop the watcher? And who is the witness of that act? We can continued that goto-loop for a while and see what happens.
Fael Illyar: I think that’s pretty much what I spent 25 minutes doing before logging in
Pema Pera: since now you are treating yourself, the you you think you are, like an object to be dropped or stopped
Pema Pera: so keep doing that and see what happens!
Rajah Yalin: easier said than done forn most people
Pema Pera: Fael is not “most people” fortunately :)
Pema Pera: and neither are you all
Pema Pera: Most people haven’t visited here yet :)
Pema Pera: sorry, Rajah, don’t want to make fun of what you said
Pema Pera: of course you’re right
Pema Pera: but on another level you are wrong
Pema Pera: we are all wrong
Pema Pera: it is NOT difficult
Rajah Yalin: It wasnt tilmiwas kin India i GLimpsed meditating giht
Pema Pera: it is NOT EVEN difficult
Faenik loves wells!
Fael Illyar: except it is :P
Pema Pera: typing may be :)
Rajah Yalin: eFFORTLESS effort
Pema Pera: yes
Rajah Yalin: sorry for kava typing..
Pema Pera: haha yes
After a while my typing also degenerated.
Fael Illyar: stopping is not difficult. Finding what to stop is :)
Pema Pera: and who is trying to stop
Pema Pera: can you find the stopper
Pema Pera: to seeking-to-stop-per
Pema Pera: ?
Pema Pera: *he
Pema Pera: *the
Pema Pera: argh
Pema Pera: the seeking-to-stop-per
Rajah Yalin: time is my enemy
Pema Pera: in what way?
Rajah Yalin: becos its fake but interewoven into all strings of human life
Rajah Yalin: ow. new discovery. computers are bright. meditation is good for the eyesight, buts the cmputer really myfriend? do I need this thing/? thoughts all over the place
Fael Illyar blinks in confusion.
Pema Pera: kava?
Pema Pera: :)
Rajah Yalin: lol
Rajah letting his time story drift our way reminded me that it was time for me to go.
Pema Pera: if time is fake, it doesn’t seem like a very powerful enemy . . . .
Rajah Yalin: it shouldnt be
Pema Pera: is it?
Rajah Yalin: not to me
Rajah Yalin: but the resst dont realise it
Rajah Yalin: someething sabout routine… and sleep.. zzzzz
Pema Pera: time is my friend, but sometimes a nagging friend, lady time is tucking at my sleeve and asking me to go out to dinner with her now . . . .
Pema Pera: . . . . so I’d better not disappoint her . . . . .
Rajah Yalin: yep that its a nag
Pema Pera: well, great talking with y’all !
Fael Illyar: :) See you later Pera :)
Peaceful Navarathna: See you later.
Fael Illyar: umh, Pema
Pema Pera: Fael, I look forward to see how you will drop Fael !
Rajah Yalin: Namaste
Pema Pera: perhaps Faenik can tell me later :)
Pema Pera: namaste!
Fael Illyar dropped
Pema Pera: I see Fael dropping Fael
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: well done!
Pema Pera: I heard the thud!!!
Dragon Fael had first levitated and had then dropped herself.
Pema Pera: that was dropping the body
Pema Pera: now how about the mind?
Faenik: could be
Fael Illyar is trying to be funny here.
Rajah Yalin: Lol
Fael Illyar: Unfortunately, I can’t show you dropping my mind.
Rajah Yalin: sure ou can
Pema Pera: oh sure you can
Rajah and I spoke in unison.
Pema Pera: haha
Rajah Yalin: zazen
Pema Pera: thinking alike
Pema Pera: that’s what those zen stories are
Pema Pera: showing how someone drops their mind
Fael Illyar: I suppose :)
Rajah Yalin: Plus
Rajah Yalin: there are SL poses
Rajah Yalin: it maybe convincng yet
Pema Pera: quick google search: http://www.thezensite.com/ZenTeachings/augusto/Denkoroku%2051.htm
Pema Pera: google is great
Fael Illyar: Well, maybe, I need to go eat too, actually :)
Pema Pera: here is the poem after the very short story:
Fael Illyar: See you later :)
Pema Pera: The ground, clear and bright, has neither surface nor inside. How can there be body and mind to drop away?
Pema Pera: ground here is Being
Pema Pera: okay, see you later, Fael
Pema Pera: and everyone!
Rajah Yalin: lol
Rajah Yalin: Namaste
Rajah Yalin: take cae
Pema Pera: good seeing you again Peace!
Peaceful Navarathna: Likewise.
Pema Pera: Bye Holden, Rajah!
Faenik: ah :)
