2008.06.16 13:00 - Anger Makes Wrinkles

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    That afternoon, Stim was the guardian. He sent me the following chat log together with his comments.

    I (Stim) showed up a bit early, just in case there was trouble logging into SL. As I sat quietly in the tea house, I noticed others gathering in the garden outside … I was curious to see if they would come in …

    Fael Illyar: Hello Adams
    Adams Rubble: Hello Fael :)
    Fael Illyar: Ah, stim is inside
    Fael Illyar: Hello Stim :)
    Adams Rubble: Is he. I didn’t see him go in
    Stim Morane: Hi Fael!
    Adams Rubble: Hi Stim
    Fael Illyar: Hi Moon
    Adams Rubble: Hi Moon
    Stim Morane: Hi Adams
    Moon Fargis: wahi everyone
    Fael Illyar: wahi?
    Stim Morane: Hi Moon!
    Moon Fargis: heh hi i mean
    Faenik loves wells!
    Fael Illyar: So, inside or outside ?
    Moon Fargis: or
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Fael Illyar: I guess some can go in and some out but …
    Moon Fargis: okok inside:)

    As it turned out, there was an incentive to come in—the newly reprogrammed teapot!

    Moon Fargis: lets take a look at the spinning teapot :)
    Stim Morane: Yes, here it is
    Fael Illyar: now it changes direction too :)
    Stim Morane: ah, I hadn’t noticed
    Fael Illyar: and gradually too :)
    Stim Morane: good
    Adams Rubble: somebody tp me in please
    Stim Morane: so, what shall we discuss today?
    Stim Morane: Oh, could someone help Adams?
    Fael Illyar: done
    Stim Morane: thanks
    Adams Rubble: thank you Fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pia
    Adams Rubble: sorry
    Adams Rubble: whew
    Stim Morane: Hi Pia
    Adams Rubble: Hi Pia
    Pia Iger: hi, everyone.
    Adams Rubble: nice shades Moon
    Adams Rubble: yes Fael :)
    Faenik loves wells!
    Moon Fargis: h thx:)

    As things settled down, I floated an invitation to begin.

    Stim Morane: several of you have probably been here more often than I in the past week. I’ll leave it to you to decide what would be most interesting to discuss.
    Stim Morane: Hi Isen!
    Adams Rubble: Hi Isen

    Isen entered with dark shades, not unlike those Moon was wearing: two monk-avatars in shades.

    Adams Rubble: nice shades Isen
    Pia Iger: Stim, We talked about anger again this morning.
    Moon Fargis: the monk brothers
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Moon Fargis: ah wait then we still need one
    Stim Morane: Interesting
    Pia Iger: so I suggest we go deeper in this session.
    Isen Enzo: I’m Jake…
    Stim Morane: Anger seems to be a favorite topic
    Isen Enzo: I hate anger…
    Isen Enzo: lol
    Fael Illyar: Yes, anger has been popular lately :)
    Adams Rubble: good for you Isen
    Fael Illyar: that’s an amusing way to put it :)
    Stim Morane: anger is one of the most destructive emotions, from a traditional point of view. But it is also the most instructive
    Stim Morane: Do any of you have any comments to extend what has already been said?
    Moon Fargis: anger and hate i guess
    Stim Morane: Yes, hatred too.
    Moon Fargis: i hate t hate :)
    Moon Fargis: to
    Faenik: could be
    Pia Iger: this am, Star gave us a detailed illness related to repression of anger.
    Pia Iger: physical illness.
    Isen Enzo: wow
    Stim Morane: yes, I’m not surprised
    Moon Fargis: ahyes that happens
    Moon Fargis: alot emotions are not controllable in a direct way
    Stim Morane: it can be seen directly and thus emptied out, or learned from, but repression is not a good option
    Fael Illyar: a form of rheumatoid arthitis that affects muscles
    Isen Enzo: wow
    Isen Enzo: arthritis from anger?
    Stim Morane: I think many illnesses could be added to the list
    Fael Illyar: from repressing anger
    Isen Enzo: hm…
    Pia Iger: yes.
    Moon Fargis: yes like “flitzekacke”
    Stim Morane: So tell me, can you “see” anger?
    Isen Enzo: feel it..
    Fael Illyar: What I’m wondering, though, is if “letting go” of anger is repressing it
    Stim Morane: yes, it has to include feeling too, the whole physicality of it
    Isen Enzo: We talked yesterday about not attaching to anger..
    Stim Morane: good q Fael … does anyone have an opinion re this?
    Pia Iger: they are not same
    Isen Enzo: can’t avoid anger, but don’t have to attach to it or invest in it…
    Isen Enzo: like our wandering thoughts in zazen..
    Moon Fargis: well thoughts are conected with emotions.. no thoughts no emotions… easy isnt it?)
    Stim Morane: yes, there’s no need to avoid its arising. The question is “what then?”
    Moon Fargis: sadly.. there are confuse silent thoghts
    Pia Iger: “see anger”, to recognise its color, shape and strength.
    Stim Morane: This is tricky … the word “see” can mean many things.
    Pia Iger: right. I hope you can say more about it. “see”
    Isen Enzo: recognize it?
    Stim Morane: it doesn’t mean “I see”. it means “what something Is” without further overlay, interpretations, associations, etc
    Stim Morane: But then we’ve just traded one tricky word with another.
    Isen Enzo: hoo boy…
    Pia Iger: tricky..
    Stim Morane: coming back to Moon’s point, anger is part of a whole complex of mind movements.
    Isen Enzo: yes
    Stim Morane: Break the chain anywhere.
    Stim Morane: There are several ways to break the chain.
    Stim Morane: Seeing is the best, but the most advanced.
    Moon Fargis: sadly thoughts are no chain..
    Stim Morane: Perhaps it’s better to start where he suggested, by just declining, or not indulging.
    Stim Morane: the chain of thoughts, identifications with a small self, judgments etc is a chain
    Moon Fargis: ahh you mean a chain of that ind
    Stim Morane: fortunately, each thought, each feeling itself is not a chain
    Faenik: could be
    Isen Enzo: anger is an unskillful reaction to adverse stimulation…
    Fael Illyar: what is part of this chain?
    Stim Morane: the point is that the chain itself is not a chain … if seen sufficiently directly, adding nothingn, subtracting nothing, it’s “broken”
    Stim Morane: Finished
    Stim Morane: anger is self
    Stim Morane: anger is self-finished
    Stim Morane: sorry about t he typo
    Adams Rubble: I like the idea that anger is an unskillful reaction
    Stim Morane: yes, that’s certainly a fair thing to say
    Isen Enzo: need to identify what needs changed..
    Isen Enzo: but anger is not helpful..
    Faenik: ah :)
    Adams Rubble: yes Isen
    Stim Morane: it does seem like a little kid’s take on something
    Fael Illyar: It rings true, people tend to react with anger to words when they can no longer think of words
    Isen Enzo: not being angry doesnt mean not doingn anything about the situation…
    Stim Morane: true, Isen
    Moon Fargis: stim: emotions like re littly crying childs
    Moon Fargis: or kids
    Stim Morane: we’re not recommending numbness
    Stim Morane: yes Moon
    Moon Fargis: ignoring them will make them cry louder, accept them will stop crying mostly
    Stim Morane: anyway, emptiness is not repression
    Stim Morane: emptiness is just what things are
    Moon Fargis: emptiess is the result
    Moon Fargis: of accepting
    Moon Fargis: imo
    Stim Morane: emptiness is the Suchness of all things, good or bad
    Stim Morane: yes, acceptance
    Stim Morane: but that’s another tricky word
    Stim Morane: it could be many things
    Fael Illyar: We’ve got many tricky words today :)
    Pia Iger: :)
    Stim Morane: it’s not surprising … it just means all the ordinary options are inadequate … but it’s the ordinary options that words usually point at
    Stim Morane: we want to use ordinary words in a nonordinary way
    Stim Morane: that nonordinary way is still a natural way
    Stim Morane: supremely natural
    Faenik: why not?
    Stim Morane: again, the chain is broken … it doesn’t need to be broken
    Pia Iger: I like that, sounds right.
    Stim Morane: repression would be doing something … but that has side-effects
    Stim Morane: a chain-reaction
    Stim Morane: it’s nice that things are all finished, without contrivance
    Pia Iger: so most time we can’t see chain is broken..
    Stim Morane: anger is the most resistant … but that just means it makes the point particularly clearly
    Stim Morane: yes, right Pia
    Stim Morane: we don’t want to see it!
    Pia Iger: why?
    Stim Morane: But it Is so
    Stim Morane: why do we not want to? Well, what do you all say?
    Fael Illyar: the chain is broken … when?
    Adams Rubble: With apologies, I must go. Bye everyone :)
    Fael Illyar: when you’re angry?
    Fael Illyar: Bye Adams
    Stim Morane: Oh, OK. Bye Adams!
    Moon Fargis: uhm by adams:)
    Moon Fargis: e
    Faenik loves wells!
    Pia Iger: bye, Adams.
    Isen Enzo: Bye Adams
    Stim Morane: Fael, the chain is self-broken … it looks like a chain, we want it to be a chain, but it isn’t a chain
    Stim Morane: the self is like that too … another apparent but not actual chain
    Stim Morane: same issue
    Fael Illyar: ok, this sounds like something I’m not getting
    Pia Iger: puzzled…

    Uh oh, time to regroup.

    Stim Morane: OK, sorry
    Stim Morane: let’s back up…
    Stim Morane: where would you suggest we start, Fael?
    Fael Illyar: well, the chain, self-broken or whatever, I don’t quite understand what it is.
    Stim Morane: yes, perhaps we’ve gone past the usefulness of that word
    Faenik: ah :)
    Stim Morane: would you like to start with something that seems tangible to you?
    Fael Illyar: that might help
    Stim Morane: please feel free …
    Fael Illyar: ok, we were talking about anger so … hard to think of anything more than that that I can see as tangible
    Stim Morane: OK, but anger “goes on” …
    Stim Morane: apparently
    Fael Illyar: you mean feeds itself?
    Stim Morane: that’s the issue I was addressing by using the word “chain”
    Stim Morane: yes, it just wants to keep running, burning
    Stim Morane: it’s the run-on issue
    Isen Enzo: you mean like karmic momentum…?
    Stim Morane: yes, not just like that, but exactly that
    Fael Illyar: and this anger feeding itself is what you mean by chain?
    Isen Enzo: an action in motion tends to stay in motion?
    Stim Morane: yes. If just stopped, it wouldn’t amount to much. And if it were self-stopped, it would be “empty”, immediately.
    Stim Morane: Yes, there’s a Newtonian character to this Isen.
    Isen Enzo: Well, you can’t put a fire out by fanning the flames…
    Stim Morane: perhaps you could put anger/fire out that way, but it would be risky.
    Isen Enzo: unless, you just wanted it to burn itself out..
    Stim Morane: yes, exactly.
    Stim Morane: but it takes quite a toll to do that
    Isen Enzo: Better not to start..
    Stim Morane: yes, although as Moon pointed out, it happens (it does start)
    Isen Enzo: or if not, notice as close to the start as possible…
    Isen Enzo: like in zazen..
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Stim Morane: anyway, one simple angle on this is just to see it, yes Isen, to notice as soon as you can …
    Isen Enzo: bud nipping..
    Fael Illyar: Hi Delani
    Stim Morane: yes, righth
    Delani Gabardini: hi all
    Moon Fargis: ah hi delani
    Stim Morane: Hi Delani!
    Pia Iger: so the part I don’t get is why “we don’t want to see it!”?
    Pia Iger: Hi,Delani
    Stim Morane: “we” are part of the run-on character … we “are” an attachment
    Delani Gabardini: hi pia, fael, stim
    Delani Gabardini: sorry I am late
    Stim Morane: quite all right …
    Isen Enzo: Delani is our Blues Sister..
    Moon Fargis: ok now monk brothers/sister s:)
    Isen Enzo: uh oh…

    Moon treats us to another dance.

    Stim Morane: I haven’t see this one before, thanks!
    Moon Fargis: ohh i like it its soo silly:)
    Stim Morane: very sprightly

    At this point, Isen asked about my own background in RL, and we spent about a minute on traditional study, concluding with the Indian Shastra (commentarial) movement.

    Stim Morane: but the trick is to see the applications, not just the bickering
    Isen Enzo: yea
    Stim Morane: we’re talking about that now, here
    Isen Enzo: inter-school rivalry?
    Stim Morane: it all comes down to attachment, run-on, breaking the apparent chain
    Isen Enzo: “be true to your school! “
    Stim Morane: yes, schools liked to argue, I don’t
    Isen Enzo: “show the colors”
    Stim Morane: right!
    Stim Morane: for me, there is no need for arguing …
    Isen Enzo: nah..
    Stim Morane: especially not with anger
    Moon Fargis: “and all i see is nothing”
    Stim Morane: yes
    Stim Morane: meditation masters don’t see much to argue about
    Isen Enzo: anger not good even in a fight situation..
    Stim Morane: right, it’s couterproductive
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Isen Enzo: get the other guy angry.
    Stim Morane: counter-
    Isen Enzo: not you..
    Stim Morane: I hope we can all enjoy sharing stuff without the need for that
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Stim Morane: anyway, anger is always a good teacher …
    Stim Morane: it shows so much, so quickly
    Delani Gabardini: doesn’t anger generally mask pain
    Moon Fargis: hmm cant remember when i lately felt anger
    Moon Fargis: must have been years now….
    Pia Iger: I constantly feel anger.
    Stim Morane: some people aren’t inclined to anger …
    Delani Gabardini: anger is a waste of energy
    Stim Morane: if anger isn’t available, there’s always something else
    Stim Morane: yes, it wastes a huge amount of energy
    Stim Morane: it also trashes your cultivation of “virtue” in the traditional sense.

    I mentioned this latter because Isen had brought up “virtue” in a previous meeting.

    Pia Iger: I want to know not just disattach, but also how to learn from it.
    Fael Illyar: I’m a bit hesitant to say I’m rarely angry although my hesitation might be mistaking something else for anger.
    Stim Morane: who is angry? At what or whom? Why so strongly? These are things to learn from.
    Fael Illyar: I tend to not be angry with other people at least.
    Stim Morane: again, some people are not very afflicted by this passion
    Stim Morane: my teachers were very good at making me angry …
    Pia Iger: good teacher, maybe??
    Stim Morane: yes, but I didn’t think so at the time
    Fael Illyar: I have this faint memory of thinking “this is too tiring, I’ll stop this” years past.
    Delani Gabardini: agree fael
    Stim Morane: anyway, no need to acquire anger if it doesn’t come naturally. There’s always another way to learn …
    Delani Gabardini: i gave up anger as a bad habit
    Stim Morane: Yes, good. That was itself a kind of “seeing” … I think you do get what we were saying before.
    Stim Morane: the rest is just fine details …
    Delani Gabardini: Buddhism has taught me to put down my swords of anger
    Stim Morane: Good, Delani. That’s quite an accomplishment
    Delani Gabardini: i have had very good teachers
    Isen Enzo: important to identify what’s wrong, not necessairy to get angry about it…
    Fael Illyar: Although, I sometimes have some feeling that I think resembles anger when I’m reading news sometimes. Especially concerning new laws.
    Isen Enzo: a bad situation is not improved by a scowl- only hurts your face..
    Stim Morane: so moving on to another point we were discussing before, in a previous week I was saying even anger is part of the continuity of something real and right, “Being” or whatever you want to call it
    Delani Gabardini: and makes wrinkles

    Now we were getting into the really important stuff.

    Fael Illyar: although, I suspect it’s not quite the same
    Stim Morane: wrinkles! Oh no!
    Delani Gabardini: hehe
    Isen Enzo: We hate wrinkles!!
    Stim Morane: even worse than debilitating diseases
    Moon Fargis: ??
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pia Iger: I have not seen a single wrinkle in SL:)
    Stim Morane: I wonder why …
    Delani Gabardini: hi faenik
    Moon Fargis: ehm
    Moon Fargis: what is a wrinkle?
    Faenik: Hi Delani.
    Stim Morane: I’m not sure how to answer …
    Delani Gabardini: it is when the skin ages and droops and forms creases
    Delani Gabardini: caused by anger
    Delani Gabardini: smile
    Moon Fargis: uhm
    Moon Fargis adds another ? to his ?? and opens a dict
    Delani Gabardini: find it moon?
    Moon Fargis: ahhh
    Moon Fargis: now i understand
    Stim Morane: it’s the old idea … if you truly relax, your face forms a slight smile.
    Pia Iger: nice.
    Stim Morane: if you are upset about something, your face contorts, with effort, and with consequences
    Moon Fargis: well in zazen..my eyes and nose lies on the ground :)
    Stim Morane: Ha!
    Fael Illyar: I wonder if truly relaxed face was what I was going for when I last edited my AV
    Delani Gabardini: u do have that look fael - very pleasant
    Fael Illyar: it ended up quite close to what I wanted :)
    Faenik: ah :)
    Delani Gabardini: oh no
    Delani Gabardini: ants in his pants
    Moon Fargis: *squeeeze*
    Stim Morane: thanks again! Well to move towards wrapping up …
    Delani Gabardini: i am sorry I was so late
    Delani Gabardini: sounds like it was interesting - will read the blog
    Pia Iger: maybe next time, we can talk more on continuity of “Being’.
    Fael Illyar: I guess I’ll not use this attachment, I find SL’s smiles creepy :) Thank you, though, Moon
    Moon Fargis: ok see you later then stim :) i think we should talk more:)
    Stim Morane: Oh, I didn’t mean to suggest you have to stop … I will be going soon, however.
    Stim Morane: I think there are several threads we could explore more …
    Pia Iger: good, I look forward to that.
    Delani Gabardini: thank u stim
    Stim Morane: Thanks to all of you!
    Stim Morane: So once I leave, are you going to have a party?
    Delani Gabardini: we will sing and dance
    Moon Fargis: yees we daance:)
    Moon Fargis: hehe
    Stim Morane: Good.
    Moon Fargis: but first i also have to prepare a log
    Fael Illyar: When I’m reading news about new laws that are either passed or planning stage, I sometimes get a bit annoyed for a while and then it changes to resignedness.
    Isen Enzo: Yo!
    Fael Illyar: well, some of them at least
    Delani Gabardini: well just think at some point none of it will matter to u
    Isen Enzo: Ha- part of my practice is to watch the news and try not to talk back to the TV….
    Stim Morane: Well this looks like the beginning rather than the end. Good! Bye all!
    Moon Fargis: babbling the tv again ?:)
    Moon Fargis: bye stim :)
    Delani Gabardini: namaste stim
    Fael Illyar: Bye Stim :)

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