2008.06.20 07:00 - Learning from Learning

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    Adams was the guardian, that morning. She provided the chat log, and the first and last line of the comments. The other comments are mine.

    Adams Rubble arrived first, crashed, came back. Soon Fael arrived down through the opening in the center of the pavilion

    Fael Illyar: Hi Adams :)
    Aams Rubble: Hello Fael :)
    Aams Rubble: a grand appearance :)
    Aams Rubble: I crashed twice in the past five minites
    Fael Illyar: the seat on my right side has different pose
    Adams Rubble: Yes Dakini put in some kneeling poses
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Fael Illyar: might work better with your clothing :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema
    Adams Rubble: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Adams and Fael!
    Adams Rubble: What do you think, Fael
    Adams Rubble: Do you think I should move?
    Adams Rubble: not much better
    Fael Illyar: Yes, apparently not
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: Sorry Pema, we’re discussing how we appear
    Pema Pera: apparently :)
    Pema Pera: nice skirt, Adams!
    Pema Pera: but yes, I now see the problem

    Adam’s skirt was hanging straight down, through the cushion and the floor, in such a way as to have almost disappeared.

    Adams Rubble: Thanks. The problem is sitting :)
    Fael Illyar: the rest of it unfortunately is saying “missing texture”
    Pema Pera: hanging into the underworld . . . .
    Adams Rubble: I crashed twice in the past five minutes. I hope I am able to stay here
    Fael Illyar: Hopefully :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Fael Illyar: What I’m wearing right now is probably the outfit I’ve been using second most often, if you consider all the time I’ve spent in SL :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: It looks nice on you :)
    Fael Illyar: thank you :)
    Pema Pera: I think it fits perfectly with Faenik too
    Adams Rubble: I had things I thought we could talk about and now I can’t remember a single one
    Pema Pera: :>)
    Adams Rubble: yes :)
    Fael Illyar: hehe :)
    Fael Illyar: abandoning avatars … Well, I guess that does happen :)
    Fael Illyar: I’ve practically abandoned the shapes I’ve used earlier. Those look quite different from what I look like now.
    Adams Rubble: Are you talking about my blog?
    Fael Illyar: Well, if you look at the face, at least :)
    Fael Illyar: other parts I haven’t bothered changing that much
    Fael Illyar: Yes
    Adams Rubble: I never got those thoughts completed–it’s kind of rough yet-I probably shouldn’t have put it up
    Adams Rubble: But’s its true we do work on our appearances
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Adams Rubble: My head is a bit of a jumble this morning
    Fael Illyar: I’m rather lazy today for some reason. Feels like I still haven’t woken up properly
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble: It’s been a busy week

    Adams gave her reflections on an earlier discussion we had, one and a half days ago, in http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/stages-and-moves/

    Adams Rubble: I had some thoughts about your 3 stages, Pema
    Pema Pera: yes, Adams?
    Adams Rubble: But they seem pretty lame right now
    Adams Rubble: But when we start into an organization or project
    Adams Rubble: our goals or apsirations
    Adams Rubble: might not be exactly what the organization or project offers
    Adams Rubble: we throw ourselves in
    Fael Illyar: I’d surprised if they were
    Adams Rubble: in an exoploratory way
    Adams Rubble: and then we find that things do not fit exactly
    Adams Rubble: and we need to do other things too
    Adams Rubble: and so we withdraw
    Adams Rubble: but then we find that there are things we miss
    Adams Rubble: and find a way to fit it in
    Adams Rubble: For example I started because I was looking to learn more about living Buddhism
    Adams Rubble: and this group really is not about Buddhism
    Adams Rubble: but it has helped me grow
    Pema Pera: not only about Buddhism
    Adams Rubble: The next part is unwritten
    Pema Pera: not “not about Buddhism”
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Fael Illyar: you don’t have to take everything a group offers. Especially a group like this
    Adams Rubble: Just some thoughts-probably not completely formed
    Pema Pera: very interesting, Adams, thank you so much for sharing
    Pema Pera: I think there is a lot to that
    Pema Pera: I had not made the connection with fit or not fit
    Pema Pera: that’s an interesting extra dimension
    Pema Pera: and that brings me to a question:
    Pema Pera: if someone would find here exactly what they are looking for,
    Pema Pera: do you think there would then not be the stage 1, 2, 3 phenomena?
    Fael Illyar: also, what you’re looking for, changes when you learn more :)
    Pema Pera: yes indeed!

    Fael made a great point, yes, our goals are not static, fortunately.

    Adams Rubble: I think so because there is the time issue-we have other things which need to be done too
    Adams Rubble: yes Fael
    Pema Pera: and you may find things you could not have imagened, so could not have looked for, Fael
    Adams Rubble: yes
    Pema Pera: everything in life seems to breath, even in nature in general, eb and flow, in and out, summer and winter . . . also our attention to something new
    Pema Pera: very natural
    Pema Pera: but if we don’t recognize it, we can be shocked
    Pema Pera: to suddenly see that we seem to have lost interest
    Pema Pera: so it is good to observe that dynamic
    Pema Pera: to not draw the wrong conclusions
    Adams Rubble: Yes, I agree and it was good you brought it up
    Pema Pera: And Fael, your observation is very interesting too
    Pema Pera: that we are changing
    Pema Pera: there is the breathing
    Pema Pera: but also the growing
    Pema Pera: breathing is circular
    Pema Pera: growing is the other part of the spiral
    Faenik: why not?
    Pema Pera: both are important to notice
    Pema Pera: Hi Moon!
    Adams Rubble: Hi Moon
    Moon Fargis: hi everyone

    Moon joined us.

    Fael Illyar: I’m not actually sure what I was looking for when I came here but I quite definitely found something :)
    Pema Pera: Frankly, I wasn’t sure what I started, when I started it, three months ago (^_^)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Pema Pera: but I’m totally delighted with the results, even so far,
    Fael Illyar: Well, that goes for SL as a whole, I had no idea what I was getting into when I started :)
    Pema Pera: and it seems only the very beginning
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Adams Rubble: and now SL is getting competitors
    Adams Rubble: parallel universes
    Pema Pera: and hopefully SL and other worlds will all be integrated
    Fael Illyar: which ones are you talking about?
    Pema Pera: interoperable
    Pema Pera: so you can travel from one to the other
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adams Rubble: I forget the names—one has central in the name
    Pema Pera: there is wonderland, from Sun
    Pema Pera: and Qwaq
    Adams Rubble: If it is like all the other technology it will be a long time until they are integrated
    Pema Pera: and OpenSim more like SL but open source
    Pema Pera: perhaps not so long
    Pema Pera: lots of work going on
    Fael Illyar: LL is working at making an open standard and open source server implementation … well, at least they claim to be :)
    Pema Pera: they are
    Pema Pera: IBM is a player too

    I mentioned my current astronomy activities in Second Life.

    Pema Pera: actually, I’ll go to a continuing talk about that in half an hour
    Pema Pera: in my other SL group, the astronomy organization
    Pema Pera: and I’m having lunch in RL in Tokyo with people working on that, five of them, on Monday
    Pema Pera: it’s essential for us astronomers
    Pema Pera: to not be stuck to one world
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I can quite see that :)
    Pema Pera: we want to get our simulations working in a virtual world
    Pema Pera: so we need open source, for sure
    Pema Pera: we are thinking of starting our own Grid in OpenSim in Tokyo on a server at the obervatory there
    Pema Pera: and we seem to be close to teleporting in and out of SL
    Pema Pera: but only with “naked” avatars — not yet with assets
    Pema Pera: like inventory
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Pema Pera: but again that is underway
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I read about that :)
    Pema Pera: almost working
    Pema Pera: wont’ be that long
    Pema Pera: stay tuned :-)
    Adams Rubble: That is very good to hear; it will be great if sensble people prevail over the economics
    Pema Pera: well, it has to be like that
    Pema Pera: imagine that for the world wide web
    Pema Pera: you would need a different browser for each web site
    Pema Pera: that would be ridiculous
    Fael Illyar: a closed system doesn’t stand a chance to be used that widely
    Pema Pera: exactly

    The conversation then turned to the internet.

    Adams Rubble: Yes, but the US Govt stepped up on that one in a big way
    Pema Pera: ?
    Adams Rubble: on the internet
    Fael Illyar: ?
    Adams Rubble: to make it unified
    Pema Pera: the government?
    Adams Rubble: to keep it from splintering into fragments
    Pema Pera: you mean DARPA?
    Pema Pera: I think it was the hackers spirit
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Adams Rubble: OK :)
    Pema Pera: neither govn nor business knew what was hitting them
    Pema Pera: fortunately
    Pema Pera: the hackers at MIT and elsewhere did things
    Moon Fargis: darpa?
    Fael Illyar: Yes, if they did, internet would locked down very heavily.
    Pema Pera: and there was no way out
    Adams Rubble: Didn’t the givernment make the grid?
    Adams Rubble: and concections
    Faenik loves wells!
    Pema Pera: They did not design it
    Adams Rubble: maybe had a role in making it work?
    Fael Illyar: DARPA did design the protocols used to this day.
    Adams Rubble: OK, sorry
    Pema Pera: DARPA gave money to hackers
    Pema Pera: hackers designed it following their own ideas
    Pema Pera: furtunately!!!
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, same thing, said in a different way :)
    Adams Rubble: OK, I was a little late into the internet - didn;t see it right away
    Fael Illyar: but more accurately I guess :)
    Adams Rubble: So there is hope for the integration of the parallel universes then :)

    I tried to find a reference, but couldn’t find it in time.

    Pema Pera: I’m trying to find a great summary . . . but can’t locate it yet
    Pema Pera: the basic idea is that the spirit of the sixties created the whole internet structure
    Adams Rubble: That’s OK, the point is where it goes from here
    Pema Pera: before business caught on
    Fael Illyar: If businesses had designed internet, it would be several different splitered networks with maybe a token interoperability.
    Fael Illyar: … sort of like cellphone networks
    Pema Pera: yes
    Adams Rubble: and CDs and high definition TV
    Pema Pera: indeed
    Adams Rubble: I am amazed how much I learn about technology in this group :)
    Fael Illyar: Very much offtopic but interesting :)
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Adams Rubble: Buddhist Technicians
    Pema Pera: hmmm, can’t find the article I had in mind . . . when I find it, I’ll send it to the google group
    Pema Pera: a computer scientist at MIT analyzing the origin of the internet, very insightful
    Pema Pera: later!

    I would later rediscover it: a book review, written by Lieberman, on his home page http://www.media.mit.edu/%7Elieber/; the particular paper is http://www.media.mit.edu/%7Elieber/Publications/Counter-Cyber.pdf. It is a remarkably insightful paper, and I will take the liberty to quote the first three paragraphs here:

    We’re pretty damn lucky we got the Internet we did: a worldwide network in which almost anybody can read, publish, and program pretty much anything. It didn’t have to turn out that way. It could have been dominated by a few corporations, spoon- feeding junk-food media to the masses, just like television. Or balkanized communications providers could have saddled users with deceptive charging schemes and stifled technical innovations, just like cell phones.
    That we happened to get such an open network was a miracle. But it wasn’t an accident. The technical community that built today’s digital infrastructure did so around a certain set of cultural values, among them openness, sharing, personal expression, and innovation. These were core values of the early digital pioneers (the hackers), embodied in what we proudly call the “hacker ethic.” Today, we take the digital revolution for granted and seldom appreciate to what extent these values were sparked by the 1960s counterculture, which preceded the digital revolution: counterculture begat cyberculture.
    Because of the happy coincidence that the corporate and bureaucratic establishments of the time understood digital technology so poorly, the hackers were able to pull off the revolution before the bureaucracy knew what hit them. Like the fall of communism, it happened so fast that we haven’t yet really taken the time to fully appreciate its victory and examine how it happened.

    Back to Being.

    Adams Rubble: OK
    Pema Pera: If I can switch the topic for a moment
    Pema Pera: to Being . . .:-)
    Pema Pera: Adams, I saw on your blog that you asked:
    Pema Pera: Is Being not all of the world (creation)? Is Being not all of the universe? Is Being not all of life on earth? Is Being not all human beings on earth? Is Being not all inanimate objects on earth? Is Being not the life force? Is Being not all actions and actions resulting from actions (kharma)?
    Pema Pera: Like I’ve said before, I’m delighted that you just explore, and follow your nose, so to speak
    Pema Pera: that’s the best way to proceed!
    Adams Rubble: I was thinking along qustioning what it isn’t
    Pema Pera: so if you don’t mind, let me answer your questions with “no” :-)
    Pema Pera: that’s not Being, sorry :>)
    Moon Fargis: :)
    Pema Pera: but it is a very good approach to searching for Being!
    Fael Illyar: If you can put it in words, that’s not being :)
    Pema Pera: so please continue
    Pema Pera: well, more than that, Fael
    Pema Pera: that is true for everything
    Faenik: could be
    Pema Pera: but there are zen masters who use words
    Pema Pera: and they are a little closer than Adams got just now :)
    Pema Pera: (sorry, Adams :)
    Pema Pera: what I mean is that Being is totally other than the elements we find in our world
    Pema Pera: so the totality of the elements is not Being either
    Pema Pera: it really is totally different
    Pema Pera: waking up from a dream is not embracing all the elements of a dream
    Pema Pera: it is stepping out of the dream
    Pema Pera: orthogonal
    Pema Pera: different direction
    Pema Pera: am I making any sense?

    I hope my remarks came across the way I intended them. Exploring reality seems to me very similar to scientific research. There is the question of how to conduct research and what to find while doing so. The way Adams has been conducting her research during the short time that she has been involved with PaB was examplary, and has given me even more confidence that the PaB approach has the potential to emancipate, and to encourage collaborations toward emancipation. At the same time, it is important not to stop too quickly while exploring. Therefore, I tried to point out how to go beyond relatively early answers, how interesting they may be at first. Not that her answers were wrong, per se. Rather, there are various levels in which those answers can be deepened. I myself, too, find deepers levels in my own exploration, sometimes even on a daily basis.

    Moon Fargis: yep an no :)
    Moon Fargis: i think you should try not to exlplain being in words… maybe as a imagination:
    Moon Fargis: look outside of your window, see the blue sky with the coulds, hear the birds, and feel the warm breeze of the wind on your skin, drop your thoughts, your sorrow, and pain for a moment… dont tray to shink, just watch everything pass by
    Moon Fargis: ups i types to fast
    Moon Fargis: “dont try to think”
    Fael Illyar: That reminds me, I was thinking about this one Zen Koan a couple of days ago:
    Fael Illyar: A monk asked Joshu, a Chinese Zen master: “Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?” Joshu answered: “Mu.”
    Fael Illyar: I had a feeling for moment like I got it but it slipped away somehow.
    Pema Pera: Adams, did what I said make some sense?
    Moon Fargis: thats what koans mostly suppose todo:)
    Moon Fargis: adams is looking out of the whindow atm :)
    Moon Fargis: -h
    Adams Rubble is still grasping
    Faenik: なるほど^^
    Pema Pera: that’s what Adams is very good at, amazingly so!
    Pema Pera: the grasping
    Pema Pera: a perfect way to go, for a long while
    Pema Pera: and then at some point
    Pema Pera: stopping comes in
    Adams Rubble wonders if it is OK if she doesn;t try to think about Being at all
    Fael Illyar: I had some sort of idea that made the Koan feel like it made sense but it slipped away when I thought about it more and now I can’t even recall it.
    Pema Pera: so yes, Adams, perfectly fine to not worry about Being :)
    Fael Illyar: well, right after it slipped away, I couldn’t recall it anymore :)
    Pema Pera: Yes, Fael, seeing is not about memory
    Pema Pera: memory is putting things into slots
    Moon Fargis: fael: he meaned with “mu” “why do you aks? you know the awnswer already”
    Pema Pera: what you directly see cannot fit into a slot, never ever
    Fael Illyar: I’ll get there again sometime. Right now I don’t actually feel like going there again.
    Adams Rubble understands the sentiment
    Pema Pera: it will become more natural, can’t force it
    Pema Pera: like occasional openings in the clouds
    Pema Pera: and then more and more

    Fael was expressing that sentiment too, a kind of ripening of insight. In research too, the important thing is to not let go of the problem. Like a dig holdling onto a bone, a good scientist working on a deep research problem keeps that problem in mind and keeps chewing on it — but does not force an answer. It may be that while going for a walk or taking a shower suddenly an insight breaks through that was out of reach while sitting in an office. Moon’s trying not to think can be similar too. However, the absolutely important thing here is to stick to it, to maintain continuity, whether working on a koan, or on a scientific problem, or with the PaB exploration. The sole reason for the 15-minute rule is to encourage this continuity.

    Adams Rubble: I am learning about letting things come to one in their own time
    Pema Pera: yes
    Adams Rubble: come to me
    Pema Pera: and at the same time you are really pouring a lot of energy and time into it
    Pema Pera: the combination is wonderful
    Pema Pera: really searching
    Pema Pera: and yet letting go of the results
    Pema Pera: and letting them mature in due time
    Pema Pera: thank you for teaching us, Adams
    Pema Pera: with your exxample
    Adams Rubble blushes
    Pema Pera: this group is about teaching each other
    Pema Pera: we all learn from each other
    Pema Pera: I have learned a lot from all of your
    Moon Fargis: shanga :)
    Pema Pera: *-r
    Adams Rubble: shanga?
    Pema Pera: shangri la?
    Fael Illyar: Me too :)
    Adams Rubble: ah
    Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
    Adams Rubble: and, of course, I have learned much from all of you
    Adams Rubble: it goes with out saying really
    Fael Illyar: It’s funny you can use words to guide you to Being even when you can’t explain it directly

    Yes, that’s remarkable, isn’t it? Each word is wrong, strictly speaking, and yet, somehow in between the words something can be pointed out. Again, it is like scientific research: by making mistakes, continuously, something emerges out of the mist. Writing computer code again is similar: most of the time is spend on debugging, on making mistakes. The best programmers are not people who don’t make mistakes. Rather, master programmers are individuals who are supergood at learning from their mistakes.

    Pema Pera: We all learn, Adams, from the way you learn from us!
    Pema Pera: the way you take to heart and try out
    Moon Fargis: ups its getting worser with this keyboard.. i mean sangha
    Fael Illyar: Hello Neela
    Pema Pera: Hi Neela!
    Moon Fargis: hi neela
    Adams Rubble: Hi Neela
    Pema Pera: Fael, how about turning that around?
    Adams Rubble: What is sangha?
    Neela Blaisdale: Hello all can’t see you yet
    Fael Illyar: turning that around?
    Moon Fargis: adams: well lets call it a group of dharma practitioners who live together and teach themself, learn from each self
    Pema Pera: You said:
    Pema Pera: Fael Illyar: It’s funny you can use words to guide you to Being even when you can’t explain it directly
    Neela Blaisdale: Actually can’t see you at all where are you all, saw you for a minute
    Pema Pera: how about letting Being use words to guide Being to Being?
    Moon Fargis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sangha
    Fael Illyar: that makes sense, somehow :)
    Adams Rubble: Thanks Moon

    Neela had walked upto the pavilion, but had difficulty with rezzing, it seemed.

    Pema Pera: to your right Neela
    Pema Pera: you were approaching Neela
    Pema Pera: then retreating again
    Adams Rubble: Sort of lke getting close to the truth
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Adams Rubble: a metaphor for
    Moon Fargis: what truth ?:)
    Adams Rubble: haha
    Fael Illyar: well, if you take “truth” to be synonym for Being ;)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Moon Fargis: uhm
    Adams Rubble: We can not be wrong if we can substitute other words for things we say
    Pema Pera: Hi Neela!
    Pema Pera: You found us!
    Neela Blaisdale: But I can’t see you!
    Fael Illyar: you’re standing right behind Pema
    Adams Rubble: and three of us are to Pema’s right

    We were all trying to help Neela, but it seemed that rezzing was especially slow right then.

    Neela Blaisdale: Weird the room looks totally empty
    Moon Fargis: hmm
    Neela Blaisdale: Now I see Moon
    Moon Fargis: ahyes
    Pema Pera: I have to go now
    Neela Blaisdale: Now Feal Now the rest- Hello
    Moon Fargis: oh ok
    Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Pema :)
    Pema Pera: see you all soon!
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Pema
    Pema Pera: hello and goodbye Neela
    Moon Fargis: see you later pema
    Adams Rubble: bye Pena, thanks :)
    Pema Pera: Adams, can you send the chat log?
    Adams Rubble: yes I will
    Pema Pera: thank you!
    Pema Pera: bfn

    I left, and so did Moon and Neela.

    Moon Fargis: okidoki i will also head back to hikari
    Moon Fargis: see you later beings :)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Moon Being :P
    Neela Blaisdale: Bye Moon
    Faenik: could be
    Aams Rubble: bye Moon
    Aams Rubble: Wellllll…..
    Aams Rubble: quite a bit to chew on
    Fael Illyar: Yes, some :)
    Neela Blaisdale: Now that I’m here I have to go again, too much RL
    Aams Rubble: OK Neela. bye :)
    Fael Illyar: Bye Neela :)
    Neela Blaisdale: Just wanted to say hello
    Fael Illyar: Ok, Hello :)
    Neela Blaisdale: See you later
    Aams Rubble: Yes, take care :)

    Fael and Adams sat and conversed for a bit longer.

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