2008.08.16 07:00 - From Making to Being

Having been busy meeting many a guardian in RL this week, I (Pema) haven't had much of a chance to attend SL PaB meetings. But this Saturday morning was one of my guardian slots, and I was happy to return to the familiar pavilion, where I met Avastu, Doug, Gaya and Wol.

Wol Euler: morning pema
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
doug Sosa: morning:)
Wol Euler: hello gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Pema Pera: Hi Avastu, Gaya, Wol, Doug!
Pema Pera: hi fish swimming around Gaya :)
Wol Euler smiles
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
fish: smiles
Wol Euler: has the redecoration commitee been practicing here?
Gaya Ethaniel: Pema, I was just about to reply to your email

I had asked Gaya by email whether the names of the sim we are currently in, Rieul, and the names of nearby sims, are all Korean. At this point, Adams joins us, as a male avatar.

Gaya Ethaniel: Yes those are in Korea, referring to Korean alphabets
Pema Pera: ah, alphabets!
Pema Pera: Don't know about the committee, Wol
Pema Pera: each name is a letter?
Wol Euler: hello adams, please join us.
Pema Pera: or syllable?
Gaya Ethaniel: Nice pose this cushion...
Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
Gaya Ethaniel: More relaxing...
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
doug Sosa: hi adams..
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Everyone :)
Gaya Ethaniel: No each alphabet as Rieul is this one 'ㄹ'
Pema Pera: yes, it is a nice pose! But after a while I may want to switch legs . . .
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Wol Euler: lol, yes
doug Sosa: yes, i feel it. awkward for long.
doug Sosa: not good on the virtual spine.
Gaya Ethaniel nods and smiles at doug

My comment refered to the fact that we are now sitting on our cushions with our legs to one side, relaxing for sure, but perhaps not for too long?

Pema Pera: sorry, Gaya, Rieul is one syllable of an alphabet?
Gaya Ethaniel: yes
Gaya Ethaniel: So Bieup is 'ㅂ'
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: So our PaB land is alphabet soup!
Gaya Ethaniel: Seems these names are just consonants rather than vowels
Pema Pera: alphabet forest
Gaya Ethaniel laughs 'yes seems that way'
Pema Pera: also Mugunghwa?
doug Sosa: alphabet for rest.
Pema Pera: and Baikun?
Gaya Ethaniel: Ah Mugunhwa is written as 무궁화 and it's Korean national flower
Pema Pera: ah!
Wol Euler: oh
Pema Pera: So the beach areas have more interesting names
Wol Euler: who assigned these names, I wonder?
Gaya Ethaniel: Baikun... I need to say it for a few times in case people who names these lands use different pronounciation systems, which there are many. Will come back to you on that in a few minutes
Pema Pera thinks: good he is the guardian today: he can capture the unicode for the Hangul on his Mac :)
Gaya Ethaniel: There must be a Korean working in LL
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: ah, it is spelled BaikUn (Baik Un) does that help?
Pema Pera: broken down that way?
Gaya Ethaniel: Baikun is someone's name... 백운
Pema Pera: ah!
Gaya Ethaniel: Pen name perhaps
Gaya Ethaniel: Of old literati
Pema Pera: Do you know how to find the map of the PaB land, Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel nods 'yes Google group file'?
Gaya Ethaniel notices new clothing on AdamsD
Pema Pera: yes, and then under files, on URL http://groups.google.com/group/playasbeing?hl=en
Pema Pera: you know, it would be wonderful if you could take the names of all the sims that are on the map
Pema Pera: and give us the meanings
Pema Pera: no hurry, but when you have some time
Pema Pera: we can put that in the wiki somewhere, or as a separate page on the Google group
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure, I will. It'd be a pleasure. One day I was just looking at in-world map around Rieul. It suddenly came to me... hm... these are Korean alphabets

We are all looking forward to finally knowing the meaning of the names of our gathering places, thanks to Gaya!

Pema Pera: First, when I only knew about Rieul, I thought it was French . . . .
Gaya Ethaniel: Since then Rieul meant something else everytime I typed it <smile>
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Pema Pera: Adams, may I ask, you are "our" Adams, right?
Adams Dubrovna: Yes
Wol Euler: :-)
Pema Pera wondering to explain the question if Adams is another Adams . . .
Adams Dubrovna: haha
</smile>

My next question refers to me having met Adams' typist twice earlier this week.

Pema Pera: nice meeting you in yet another form in one week -- third one!
Adams Dubrovna: :)
Adams Dubrovna: We're working on this one
Pema Pera: How does it feel to be present here as Adams Dubrovna!
Pema Pera: We means both Adamses?
Adams Dubrovna: Well the seats are better for the other Adams :)
Adams Dubrovna: We'll all find about the other question
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: Dubrovna sounds more classic than Rubble though :>)
Adams Dubrovna: While Doug is here I wanted to thank him for his observation on time yesterday
doug Sosa: I always put on another self here, "I am awake". I am paying attention". I am not double tasking."
Pema Pera: Hi Genesis!
doug Sosa: Adams, more..:)
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Wol Euler: hello gen
Gaya Ethaniel: /me
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
doug Sosa: hi gen
Adams Dubrovna: Doug yesterday mentioned that rather than not having enough time we should think that we do have time
Adams Dubrovna: Hi Gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Adams!
Wol Euler: yes, taht was good.
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Pema!
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Everyone!

Genesis arrives, and Doug rephrases his inspiring notion.

doug Sosa: I was saying, if you do just as you do but replace all the "I am busy and don't have time" wiht "Ihave lots of time," all goes better and actually you do have the time.
Adams Dubrovna: Yes, I mangled it a bit :)
doug Sosa: "People are actually afrid to say "I am not busy."
Pema Pera: and we all know people who spend a lot of time explaining that they don't have time :-)
Pema Pera: there is this saying: if you want to get something done quickly, give it to a busy person.
Pema Pera: (who has no time to wonder whether or not he/she has time to do it -- just does it)
Wol Euler: hello kristn
Pema Pera: Hi Kristen!
Wol Euler: *kristen, sorry
Kristen Lefevre: hi
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Kristen

Kristen joins us, is new to PaB, but fits in very quickly.

Kristen Lefevre: where is this
Pema Pera: we are chatting with a group of friends
Pema Pera: feel free to sit down!
Kristen Lefevre: am i coming in on something
Pema Pera: that's fine!
Kristen Lefevre: ok, i will listen
Kristen Lefevre: ty
Pema Pera: our conversation goes in many directions
genesis Zhangsun: Seems like there are two aspects of busy being busy=having a lot to do and business=which is all of the energy spent around the doing
Pema Pera: we talk about the nature of reality and everything else :) see our blog on http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/
Kristen Lefevre: thanks
genesis Zhangsun: if you get rid of the latter seems like much more time can be spent on the former
Gaya Ethaniel: gen. I don't quite follow...
Wol Euler smiles. Oh Kristen, you're brand new, born today. Welcome to Second Life!
Adams Dubrovna: and more than the time, there is simply the negative way of looking at it
Adams Dubrovna: I like the positive approach of just having time
Kristen Lefevre: yes, was looking for buddhism and this came in search
Kristen Lefevre: i've been looking around other places some
Gaya Ethaniel: Welcome Kristen
genesis Zhangsun: weclome kristen :)
Kristen Lefevre: thanks everyone

Kristen is new not only to PaB, but to SL itself, having been born only hours before this sessions.

Pema Pera: Gaya, I think Gen talked about the difference between "doing" and "not-doing"
genesis Zhangsun: well Gaya I guess I just mean there is actually being busy and then there is business as a concept which the mind attaches itself to
Gaya Ethaniel: not-doing but explaining that one is busy?
genesis Zhangsun: preventing the work from actually being accomplished
Wol Euler: yes!
genesis Zhangsun: exactly Pema :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles 'ok got it thanks'
Pema Pera: and oh, Kristen, we collect our conversation on our blog. Do you mind having your name appear there too?
Adams Dubrovna: ...and then having to waste time proving one is busy too
Pema Pera: :)
Kristen Lefevre: i don't know
Kristen Lefevre: not my real name
Pema Pera: no no
Pema Pera: just Kristen Lefevre :)
Pema Pera: many of us don't know the real name of others
Kristen Lefevre: oh, i guess that is fine
Pema Pera: that is part of Second Life
Kristen Lefevre: don't know
Pema Pera: Thank you!
Kristen Lefevre: ok
Wol Euler: (the question is whether we may record and print your contributions to the discussion)
genesis Zhangsun: I think the seeing as being exercise could help very much with getting away from "business"
Pema Pera: yes!
doug Sosa: Saying " I am busy" is a way of protecting the inner self cloud from intrusion.
Kristen Lefevre: you don't worship the devil or anything
Wol Euler: lol
Pema Pera: nono, not to worry!
Kristen Lefevre: ok then
Pema Pera: in fact, we don't belong to any religion
Wol Euler: or rather, many religions are represented here.
doug Sosa: we doo short 9 second meditations in real life and then talk aboutthem - and lots else - here.
Pema Pera: we try to focus on the core of all religious experience and all human experience as well in general
Kristen Lefevre: oh neat
Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Play_As_Being_in_a_Nutshell - some information on what we do here Kristen

To clarify what it is that brings us together here, I give a quick PaB summary.

Pema Pera: yes, every 15 minutes, we try to take a 9-second break
Adams Dubrovna: Yes Doug
Kristen Lefevre: thanks
Pema Pera: like paying a 1% time tax (a quarter of an hour has 900 seconds)
Pema Pera: that way we shoot little holes in our busy-bee life
Pema Pera: to smell the flowers
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera wonders about the metaphor
Kristen Lefevre: ok
Wol Euler smiles
Pema Pera wonders whether busy bees smell flowers when they're busy
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Wol Euler: very apt, I think: for just that reason
Adams Dubrovna is wondering about the shotgun
Pema Pera: :)
Kristen Lefevre: when everyone is done can someone show me where to change out of these clothes?
Kristen Lefevre: they are ugly
Wol Euler: sure
Kristen Lefevre: thanks
Pema Pera: small holes are enough to let bees escape, perhaps, Adams :)
Wol Euler: hang back after, we'll sort you out :-)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Kristen Lefevre: :)
genesis Zhangsun: going back to an earlier part as seeing as being or enlightened being seeing
doug Sosa: I must take away. by :) hope to see you again Kristen, you are in good hands.
genesis Zhangsun: bye Doug!
Wol Euler chuckles.

Having said that, Doug evaporates on the spot. Genesis comes back to Being, and the practicalities of letting Being See. But the BS abbreviation invites some apt consternation :)

Kristen Lefevre: i was too late to say bye :(
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: Doug leaves like lightning
Kristen Lefevre: hehe
Pema Pera: our 9-sec gong is his breakfast gong
Wol Euler: lol
Pema Pera: yes, Gen?
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
genesis Zhangsun: oh yes well BS or EBS seems to help me with this stepping away so that business as a concept lessens and then it becomes easier to focus on just doing
Pema Pera: BS = Being Seeing, Kristen :)
Pema Pera: to let Being, all of reality, see . . .
Kristen Lefevre: good you told me, i thought it was bullshit
Adams Dubrovna: That happened with me too Gen
Pema Pera: hehehe, yes, can be confusing, we are self-depricating
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Wol Euler: lol
Pema Pera: we started all this on April 1, after all, fool's day . . .
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Kristen Lefevre: really?
Pema Pera: Being is a word that cannot be described or defined
Pema Pera: but we can experience what it points to
Kristen Lefevre: i like this place, it is inviting
Pema Pera: in fact that is at the heart of all spirituality
Gaya Ethaniel wonders if Kristen would like to sit by her
Wol Euler: heheheh
Kristen Lefevre: hehe, the girls are ganging up
Gaya Ethaniel laughs
Wol Euler: so I wasn't the only one vaguely disturbeed by the room dynamics.
Gaya Ethaniel nods 'yes Wol'
Pema Pera: Gen, perhaps you can tell Kristen about how you experience Being, or Being experiences you, to give some flavor?
Pema Pera ganging up with the boys now
Wol Euler: lol
Gaya Ethaniel laughs
Kristen Lefevre: laughs
Wol Euler: ( but it does make a diffrernce, at least to me)
Gaya Ethaniel: If you type '/me' before 'laghs' it comes an emote Kristen
Gaya Ethaniel nods at Wol
Kristen Lefevre: /laugh

What happened is that Wol and Gaya moved to sit next to Kristen, who at first sat at the other side of the circle, forming a row of three women, and then I moved over to sit next to the two other guys. As a result all of us, except for Genesis were thus spontaneously segregated.

Kristen Lefevre: /laughs
Gaya Ethaniel: '/me' then space then 'laughs'
Kristen Lefevre: oh
Kristen Lefevre laughs
Wol Euler: right!
Kristen Lefevre: got it
Pema Pera: there you go!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Kristen Lefevre: thanks Pema
genesis Zhangsun: Hmmm I guess the first part how I experience being and how being experiences me become the same there is no separation
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Kristen Lefevre: lol, I mean gaya
Kristen Lefevre: sorry, I'm getting confused
Gaya Ethaniel: No problem, thanking anyone is good Kristen
Pema Pera: we all play each other's roles here, Kristen :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you for the thought
Wol Euler: (sorry gen, please continue)
Gaya Ethaniel: Pls gen explain a bit more
Pema Pera: we're all a bunch of "guardians" as we call the regular visitors here -- yes, Gen, sorry

Finally Gen gets a chance to continue her description of how it was for her, recently, to work with Being seeing.

genesis Zhangsun: I see being and being is seeing me then it becomes more clear that "no one" is seeing it only the seeing that exists
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Gaya Ethaniel: Was it like that before?
Gaya Ethaniel: Has been always like that?*
genesis Zhangsun: not sure what you are asking Gaya?
genesis Zhangsun: are you asking if this was how it was for me before with the exercise?
Gaya Ethaniel: Was there a point when you realised 'ah'... that's best way to rephrase this.
Kristen Lefevre: sounds deep genesis
Gaya Ethaniel: Moment of realisation that 'no one' is seeing
genesis Zhangsun: Kristen the interesting thing is that it is very simple and the simplicity is what affirms the purity of the truth
Kristen Lefevre: a lovely way to put it
Avastu Maruti smiles
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Gaya Ethaniel: For me there was a trigger, music
Kristen Lefevre: ty
Pema Pera: yw :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I wonder you had one too gen. Or was it a result of accumulated practice?
genesis Zhangsun: Both Gaya... I think I was able to see something when I was with Pema in RL in NYC
genesis Zhangsun: a different way to approach it
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Gaya Ethaniel: Would you like to relate the way here?
genesis Zhangsun: Sure
genesis Zhangsun: it is so difficult to put into words
genesis Zhangsun: but I will try
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks

Gen then described what had happened.

genesis Zhangsun: I had a moment where I could appreciate the movie like quality of life
genesis Zhangsun: I think which Pema has talked about a bit in the past
Kristen Lefevre: ty Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Pleasure Kristen.
genesis Zhangsun: I could see that everything I was seeing was like a frame in a movie
genesis Zhangsun: I was watching it and it was watching me
genesis Zhangsun: and only the watching and being watched existed all the other stuff...the plot, the characters etc they were not real
genesis Zhangsun: they do not exist
genesis Zhangsun: this gave me a sense of liberation
genesis Zhangsun: there was no need to "hold on to" to "grasp" for this liberation
genesis Zhangsun: it is always present
genesis Zhangsun: there is always enough time
genesis Zhangsun: always enough space to allow it to exist
genesis Zhangsun: because we are not really doing the "allowing"
genesis Zhangsun: what do we think we "allow"
genesis Zhangsun: allowing is not coming from small "I" us it just is
genesis Zhangsun: we are not really doing anything
genesis Zhangsun: to believe so it an attempt at control
genesis Zhangsun: which we so clearly do not have
genesis Zhangsun: letting go of that control is to enjoy the mystery
genesis Zhangsun: to step into it
genesis Zhangsun: be a part of it
genesis Zhangsun: then we are a just a part of the river
genesis Zhangsun: the foam on the wave
genesis Zhangsun: a leaf dancing in the wind
genesis Zhangsun: a flower opening to the world
Avastu Maruti: brilliant!
Wol Euler: nice
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Adams Dubrovna is a bit mesmerized
Pema Pera: wonderful, Gen! And Adams, this is what I tried to point at as "not helping God" the other day
Pema Pera: in Christian terminology
Gaya Ethaniel thanks gen
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: sorry to use so many words
Adams Dubrovna: Yes, I see Gen has been working on the same point and Gen has seen it so beautifully
Adams Dubrovna: No, not too many words :)
Wol Euler: not at all
Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes many words are needed and you didn't use many here
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for giving spaces between each sentences gen. It helped me to understand better.
genesis Zhangsun: sure Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel wonders if gen was doing 9 sec before typing out each sentence

It was wonderful to see how Gen's narrative had mesmerized the group, as Adams had expressed it. Gen then pointed at what she saw as the key to opening up to this kind of experience, the switch from making to being.

genesis Zhangsun: if I may say one more thing
Kristen Lefevre: brb, need to smoke ;)
Gaya Ethaniel: Pls
Gaya Ethaniel: ok Kristen
genesis Zhangsun: what I said earlier this is what it feels like once we let go
genesis Zhangsun: but the letting go for some maybe the hard part to see all of this
genesis Zhangsun: there is so much information in our heads so many dots being connected between what we see, the past, the future
genesis Zhangsun: the BS and EBS practice may help with this
genesis Zhangsun: it the YS self that is making the connections the BS or EBS "Self" does not make connections
genesis Zhangsun: it is the connection
Gaya Ethaniel nods
genesis Zhangsun: so seeing as BS or EBS works through "knowledge" as opposed to information
Gaya Ethaniel: But 'self' does create 'separateness'
Kristen Lefevre agrees
genesis Zhangsun: we "know" so much in terms of information and "know" so little in terms of knowledge
Kristen Lefevre: I like that /me thing
Gaya Ethaniel: Pls say more gen? Need some more 'words' for the sentences above
Pema Pera smiles
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Kristen Lefevre laughs
genesis Zhangsun: the capital letter "Self" is not small self which is the individual self
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I can see that gen
Gaya Ethaniel: For me... it's all 'self'. There is no this 'Self'
Gaya Ethaniel wonders if this makes any sense...
Kristen Lefevre: you mean like the capital Self is more like how we are when we love other people?
genesis Zhangsun: yes Gaya I think that is clear
Gaya Ethaniel is thinking about how to answer Kristen's question... 'hm... this is a hard one'
Pema Pera: yes, Kristen, when Love connects us
Gaya Ethaniel: When I love, I am Being
Wol Euler: yes, it is related. defin9itely.
genesis Zhangsun: Yes Gaya!
Gaya Ethaniel: When I love, Being*
Gaya Ethaniel: Being Loving = Being*
Pema Pera marvels at the way Wol weaves in the 9 sec in a sentence
Kristen Lefevre agrees
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I had to correct this many times
Kristen Lefevre: so Self is "selfless"
Pema Pera: yes
Kristen Lefevre: ok
Pema Pera: the self is an illusion
Pema Pera: useful but should be worn lightly
Pema Pera: like a shirt not like a skin

At this point, Attorney stops by, a new visitor.

Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: Hi Attorney!
genesis Zhangsun: Hey Attorney!
Pema Pera: Welcome, have you been with us here before?
Attorney Constantine: Hi. I have never been here before.
Pema Pera: We get together here every 6 hours to chat
Pema Pera: 1 am 7 am 1 pm 7 pm SL time
Gaya Ethaniel smiles at defin9itely
Pema Pera: about reality and everything else
Pema Pera: we have a web site http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/
Attorney Constantine: I hope i am not intruding.
Pema Pera: oh no
Pema Pera: not at all!
Pema Pera: please join us
Pema Pera: and do you mind having this conversation recorded for the blog?
Pema Pera: we do that regularly
Gaya Ethaniel: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Information/Play_As_Being_in_a_Nutshell - also may be useful to you Attorney
Pema Pera: thanks, Gaya!
Gaya Ethaniel: np Pema
Gaya Ethaniel: So love is crucial here...
Attorney Constantine: I am struggling with the entire concept of sl as being a worthy pursuit. I have come here seeking knowledge. Not practical knowledge, but metaphysical, or meta-metaphysical: what is the meaning of SECOND life?
genesis Zhangsun: yes what we call love is the source
Gaya Ethaniel: 'Source' or source gen?
Kristen Lefevre thinks that sounds rhetorical
genesis Zhangsun: what would be the difference?

For a while two strands are present in the conversation. While we are still gently reflecting on Gen's experience, and the way love is part of it all, Attorney without further ado wants to tell us about his concerns about SL. We try to weave the two strands together, pointing out how SL can teach us to see in different ways.

Pema Pera: fascinating question attorney! The way I see it is that the transitions between RL and SL are inspiring us to look for other transitions
Pema Pera: like between dreaming and waking, and between waking and really waking up to the Reality of All
Gaya Ethaniel: It just popped in my mind gen... hard to 'think' why on this
Attorney Constantine: But why simulate life when it is out there for real?
Wol Euler: Attorney, I think that SL is as valid and "real" as RL is. If you take it seriously, it is worth taking seriously. If it remains just a way to spend a few idle hours, then it is idleness.
Gaya Ethaniel nods at Wol
Pema Pera: we normally don't realize that we role-play in all that we do in RL, and SL is like a mirror for us
Wol Euler: well, I have several friends hwo have physical handicaps of one osrt or another. For them this is much better than RL
Wol Euler: here, they are as able and integrated as anyone else
Gaya Ethaniel nods at Wol
genesis Zhangsun: Well I must be going all!
Wol Euler: here they can express themselves mzch better than in RL.
genesis Zhangsun: Goodbye!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: thank you so much, Gen!
Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
Kristen Lefevre: bye genesis:)
Kristen Lefevre: bye genesis:)
genesis Zhangsun: and nice to meet you Attorney and Kristen!
Adams Dubrovna: Yes, me too. Bye Gen. Bye everyone :)
Wol Euler: bye gen, thank you very much
Kristen Lefevre: glad we met

Gen leaves, and Attorney focuses like a laser beam on what he sees as the non-reality of SL.

Attorney Constantine: Please, friends, call me AC. But here, they are not real. Whatever clever semantics we cloak this in, it is pixels on a monitor.
genesis Zhangsun: Bye Wol!
genesis Zhangsun: Bye Adams!
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
genesis Zhangsun: Bye Gaya!
Pema Pera: in reality, isn't it all atoms and molecules, AC?
genesis Zhangsun: Bye All!
Wol Euler: is that different from soounds on a telephone speaker?
Gaya Ethaniel: Good day gen
Pema Pera: what's the difference?
Kristen Lefevre: children's books are not real AC
Kristen Lefevre: are they useless
Attorney Constantine: Yes, but they are molecules and atoms that are first hand to my senses
Pema Pera: light isn't?
Kristen Lefevre: sorry, i should just listen
Pema Pera: can you experience molecules???
Pema Pera: oh no Kristen!
Attorney Constantine: But is this interaction on the path to enlightenment?
Pema Pera: please join in, you're doing fine!!
Wol Euler: no, kristen, your experience is as valid as anyeone else's.
Kristen Lefevre: ok
Gaya Ethaniel: We are all equal here Kristen
Pema Pera: in our way, AC, we start with so-called enlightenment, at the beginning, not at the end of a long path
Pema Pera: if you grasp to reach enlightenment you have already lost it -- or seems to have lost it (you can't lose it, really)
Pema Pera: (Kristen do you know how to set a landmark here, to return?)
Kristen Lefevre: no
Pema Pera: top bar -> world -> create landmark here
Pema Pera: also when you log in, and see that one of us are online, you can IM them and we can tp you over
Kristen Lefevre: did it!
Kristen Lefevre: yay
Attorney Constantine: But I cannot touch any of you. I can't look into your eyes, I can't smell your hair. These are the things of substance that lead to meaningful interaction. Isn't this vacuous?

A great question! And followed by great answers.

Wol Euler: no, but you can see our souls just as well as in RL.
Wol Euler: is my body my personality?
Gaya Ethaniel: I can 'feel' your presence AC
Kristen Lefevre: so that is a landmark then, so you can go to places easier
Attorney Constantine: AC is thinking. Taking it in.
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Pema Pera: AC, yes, we miss something, but like in a cartoon, missing much of the information from a photograph, sometimes the real personality can shine through more brightly
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Kristen!
Kristen Lefevre: cool
Wol Euler: I think in fact that this is more direct and deeper here than inRL, exactly because the body and its distratoins are missing. Here you meet pure soul.
Gaya Ethaniel nods 'if one is in the right company'
Pema Pera: (Kristen, you can later find the lm in your inventory under "landmarks", bottom right blue button -- clicking on it then brings you back here)
Wol Euler: (my opinion, the group's mileage may differ :-)
Pema Pera: (agreed, Wol)
Attorney Constantine: Here, you meet "pure soul" protected by anonymity. Is this pure? Isn't revelation of self the most meaningful of gifts. I can never know you here.
Kristen Lefevre: ok, I see it. Thanks
Pema Pera: that's a good point, AC
Pema Pera: the way I see it, is that which people want to express can be expressed here very directly
Pema Pera: but what they want to hide can be hidden well, and for a long time
Pema Pera: in our group, we seem to gather very serious people
Wol Euler points to the "real life" page of her profile

lol, Wol! I suggest readers have a quick peek at the first-life part of Wol's profile, next time they are in SL.
Next the conversation turns to what "real" means for different people & avatars

Gaya Ethaniel wonders if 'pure soul' needs RL identities
Pema Pera: who don't seem to be in this hiding game
Pema Pera: but other parts of SL are different
Pema Pera also points to his profile
Attorney Constantine: Gaya, not real life indentities, just real life interaction.
Attorney Constantine: Anonymity is not real.
Gaya Ethaniel is thinking
Wol Euler: but this is real interaction!
Attorney Constantine: No it is not!
Gaya Ethaniel is 'sensing'
Attorney Constantine: Most respectfully.
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: let us talk about what is "real"
Attorney Constantine: Good.
Pema Pera: a fascinating question
Pema Pera: how do you define "real", AC?
Gaya Ethaniel nods at Pema
Attorney Constantine: It is real if I can think of it. It exists if it can exist in my mind.
Pema Pera: is SL not real then?
Kristen Lefevre: it is an interesting observation honestly.I've often asked myself whether when I dream it is real or not, and ultimately just shrug my shoulders because it happened as I slept, in reality
Kristen Lefevre: no matter where we go, there it is...reality
Pema Pera: yes, Kristen, the phenomena are real
Attorney Constantine: Yes, SL is real, but the interaction is simulated.
Pema Pera: the appearances are real, as appearances
Attorney Constantine: OK
Kristen Lefevre smiles
Pema Pera: the simulations are real then, right, AC?
Gaya Ethaniel: I feel different in different AV, AC
Pema Pera: as simulations
Attorney Constantine: Yes, they are "real." I will accede the point because it is semantic. Disney World is real as well. But there it is artificial as well.
Pema Pera: okay, let's start from there, from our agreement, and let's step forward slowly. We agree that simulations and appearances are real as such, as what they are, not as what they point to -- do we agree?
Attorney Constantine: No. Simulated love is not love.
Attorney Constantine: Simulated touch is not touch.
Pema Pera: well, let us postpone that for a moment
Pema Pera: If so, let us look at RL -- where also what appears really appears -- but we often believe in what it points to
Kristen Lefevre: maybe love is not love, and touch is not touch, too
Pema Pera: indeed!
Attorney Constantine: But maybe it is.
Pema Pera: let's not go too fast
Kristen Lefevre laughs, lots of maybes

It would be a pity to drop this topic, so central to what we are trying to do here, so I really wanted to go slow enough to try to sort things out -- perhaps even to agree to disagree on certain aspects.

Pema Pera: let's first see where we agree
Attorney Constantine: Why not start with those things that at least have a pretense of reality.
Pema Pera: we agree that simulations of something are real as real simulations, yes?
Attorney Constantine: Yes.
Pema Pera: and that there is a difference between what they are, simulations, and what they point to, right?
Attorney Constantine: If you simulate the sound of my heart. It will not sustain my life.
Attorney Constantine: Agreed?
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: so then in both SL and RL, we are always dealing with pointers and the real thing
Attorney Constantine: If you simulate life. it will not sustain your soul
Pema Pera: all words are pointers to something else
Pema Pera: all sense impressions are pointers to something else
Pema Pera: where is the difference?
Attorney Constantine: Between what?
Pema Pera: between pointers and what they point to?
Pema Pera: RL sustains a RL body, SL sustains a SL body
Kristen Lefevre: how is this different from watching tv, or playing a video game?
Pema Pera: each realm is self-contained
Attorney Constantine: Bingo Kristen.
Wol Euler: oh, that#s easy: in a video game I cannot answer your question.
Attorney Constantine: You are making my point.
Kristen Lefevre: well in today's online world, not entirely true
Wol Euler: this is a video game that _we_ make
Kristen Lefevre: but I see your point
Attorney Constantine: Do you believe that tv nourishes and enriches your soul
Gaya Ethaniel: brb
Pema Pera: depends on the program
Attorney Constantine: LOL
Pema Pera: some programs do
Kristen Lefevre: I believe that, like many mediums, it has the potential to do either good or bad
Pema Pera: few, but they are there
Attorney Constantine: How about CSI New York?
Pema Pera: don't know that
Attorney Constantine: smiles
Pema Pera: never watch tv
Attorney Constantine: It made SL famous
Attorney Constantine: More famous.

We then come to the distinction between "real" as in really existing and "real" as in practical for survival and for functioning in society. You can't eat a painted cookie and sustain your body that way, but does that make a painting less real than a cookie?

Pema Pera: AC, you live in a world of appearances -- why single some out as "real" and the rest as "unreal"? Sure, as a child we had to learn to separate reality and fantasy, for practical reasons, but if you don't re-integrate the two realms, you can't really be in touch with creativity
Attorney Constantine: Answer: because some are real, or more real, if I may, than others. If you were able to make this simple observation as a child, why do you now think it is wrong thinking?
Pema Pera: limited, not wrong
Pema Pera: excluding other perspectives
Attorney Constantine: We are limited when we are afraid to discriminate.
Pema Pera: but instead of afraid, we can calmly watch
Pema Pera: like a mother watching a child play -- for the child it is real. The mother is not "afraid" to say it is not really real
Pema Pera: The mother can discrimate on two levels at once
Attorney Constantine: Watch, sort, discriminate, put a value tag on what we observe. This is what moves us forward.
Pema Pera: form the point of view of the child and of the mother
Pema Pera: that is what moves us backwards, if we believe in only ONE way of discriminating
Pema Pera: like believing in only one coordinate system
Pema Pera: one system of measurement
Pema Pera: for the child and for the mother "real" is very different
Pema Pera: both are true and useful in their context
Attorney Constantine: And so you see SL this way?
Pema Pera: I see everything this way, yes, also SL
Pema Pera: the challenge is to wake up and SEE
Pema Pera: see all illusions, also the illusion called 'normal reality'
Attorney Constantine: Fair enough. It is worth whatever it is worth, but this is the point of my question. What is it worth?
Pema Pera: what is "worth"? "worth for what end?
Pema Pera thinking Avastu should take over here, this is his terrain :)
Attorney Constantine: Fot the time invested. Nothing fancy. Practical question.
Attorney Constantine: time is limited. Choices must be made.
Attorney Constantine: is this a good choice.

I was on two minds here, wish I could have bifurcated into two parellel universes. On the one hand, of course I saw AC's point, concerning the practical sense of real, of being able to eat a cookie and not a painting. But on the other hand, this was such a natural entry into the question of why we always are so eager to focus on our needs? Sure, if we are starving, it's definitely important to eat, but under normal circumstances, when we sit back and watch our lives, can we see more than a series of pragmatic steps, ultimately leading to death anyway?

Pema Pera: investing time for what end?
Pema Pera: for what goal?
Wol Euler: it is worth the time and effort that you invest. It is worth the care and attention that you give to those who you meet. as much -- or as little.
Attorney Constantine: To advance our lives.
Pema Pera: toward what goal this advancing?
Wol Euler: what does "advance" mean?
Pema Pera: apart from dying?
Avastu Maruti smiles
Attorney Constantine: It means that I am better off for having done it.
Pema Pera: better off in what way?
Pema Pera: what can be better than this very moment? How?
Gaya Ethaniel nods at Wol
Attorney Constantine: Than I was before I did it. By whatever measure you use to guage your experiences.
Pema Pera: what measure do you use?
Kristen Lefevre: think of all the terrible things humans have done to "advance"
Kristen Lefevre: this isn't so bad
Pema Pera: !!
Attorney Constantine: It is ineffable. It is a feeling. Maybe a resounding feeling of peace.
Attorney Constantine: Or something leading towards it.
Pema Pera: why do you locate that in the future?
Pema Pera: why not here and now?
Wol Euler: My practical answer would be: I am happier and bettr rounded as a person for having met certain others here, who ahve become friends. People I *could*not* have mit in RL. The time I spend here with them is worth all the television I don't watch :-)
Gaya Ethaniel nods at AC
Attorney Constantine: Because if we didn't have to pursue it, everyone would already have it, and no one would be here listening to you.
Avastu Maruti: How "real" is the "one" to whom it all appears?
Pema Pera: everyone already has it -- but doesn't realize they have it
Attorney Constantine: Same thing.
Kristen Lefevre: avastu spoke!
Kristen Lefevre laughs
Pema Pera: :)
Attorney Constantine: It's lack of peace, however you slice it.
Gaya Ethaniel: And 'you' created it AC the lack of peace
Attorney Constantine: ?
Pema Pera: !
Attorney Constantine: For you or for me.
Gaya Ethaniel: It's 'your' mind that creates illusions such as lack of peace, resounding feeling of peace and so on
Gaya Ethaniel: If you feel such phenomenon that is
Attorney Constantine: Of course.
Gaya Ethaniel: So turn the table around
Attorney Constantine: I am not lacking peace. I have not come here for equanimity.
Gaya Ethaniel was talking about 'reality'...
Pema Pera: [8:38] Attorney Constantine: It's lack of peace, however you slice it.
Gaya Ethaniel not questioning the motives of activities AC does

Like Gaya, I was confused a bit about what AC's mentioning of lack of peace addressed, but before we could figure this out, AC returned to his initial question as to why people spend time in SL if it is all so unreal.

Attorney Constantine: I want to know why one million people forego making love for making simulated interactions on a computer.
Wol Euler: maybe they don`t.
Attorney Constantine: Explain.
Wol Euler: nobody makes love every hour of every day.
Wol Euler: I can bve in SL now and make love an hour later.
Wol Euler: every moment of every hour is a choice and a compromise.
Attorney Constantine: And what does SL bring to your RL ?
Wol Euler: there is always something else you might do instead.
Kristen Lefevre: there is more to living than only sex
Kristen Lefevre: I mean, don't get me wrong...lol
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm SL virgin and plans to stay that way AC :P
Attorney Constantine: Stop it. That was an example.
Attorney Constantine: LOL
Gaya Ethaniel: I value what I do here in SL AC
Wol Euler: why not, it's as valid as any other example :-)
Attorney Constantine: What do you do here?
Attorney Constantine: You type.
Attorney Constantine: Right?
Wol Euler: no: I converse.
Gaya Ethaniel: I 'talk' from my heart here and now AC
Attorney Constantine: OK, with a typewriter.
Attorney Constantine: Would you talk from your heart if I were in front of you?
Wol Euler: is a typewriter worse than a telepone?
Attorney Constantine: Yes.
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes thou I'm shy
Pema Pera: when we talk from the heart, we can use lips for words or fingers for words, what's the difference?
Wol Euler: well, we disagree.
Gaya Ethaniel: So you may see me 'talking' by my body language some of things...
Attorney Constantine: OK. Now I'm hearing something that helps me.
Kristen Lefevre: books have changed lives, and they have often been written on that old typewriter
Wol Euler: good!
Attorney Constantine: Why are you shy in rl but not in sl
Gaya Ethaniel: Because I'm conditioned by my past
Gaya Ethaniel: That I'm trying to shed
Attorney Constantine: Turn it around. NOw. Except in RL.
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm in this group because what we practice at PlayasBeing *in SL* helps me to do that
Attorney Constantine: OK
Attorney Constantine: Got it.
Pema Pera: Others learn to be more careful, more "shy" in SL than in RL, it can go either way, AC -- some men playing women's roles for example
Gaya Ethaniel: It let me to step away from 'self'
Gaya Ethaniel: It lets me to just let it be
Gaya Ethaniel: It lets me to see how it is
Attorney Constantine: Will you step back one day?
Attorney Constantine: As a new person?
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry don't follow that question
Gaya Ethaniel: back into?
Attorney Constantine: Your self.
Attorney Constantine: YOu said you step away from self.
Gaya Ethaniel: There is no fixed 'self'
Gaya Ethaniel: to step into
Gaya Ethaniel: Nothing's permanent
Gaya Ethaniel: Being here is changing the reality each moment

Kristen put her finger on a crucial point: here we were having a very real and serious conversation about how real and serious SL could be -- providing the answer in the very talking!

Kristen Lefevre: if you are so critical of virtual reality AC, why do you participate in it?and doesn't this conversation,and the potential impact it could have on the ideas of the group here, go against your central theme
Wol Euler: into a different one, perhaps. SL has changed me, made me able to talk to strangers
Attorney Constantine: Yes, there is. It is the one in rl that I would see in the moment that I looked into your eyes. It is both real and changing.
Attorney Constantine: Cool Wol
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I agree SL has its limitation AC
Wol Euler: reality changes. We change.
Pema Pera: right on, Kristen!
Gaya Ethaniel: But it offers something that cannot be easily obtained in RL
Kristen Lefevre smiles
Gaya Ethaniel: For me at least
Attorney Constantine: GAya, you are answering my question. Please continue. It is important to me.
Gaya Ethaniel: I love looking at people's eyes when interacting in RL so I can understand your point
Gaya Ethaniel: I can 'see' better when I look into their eyes
Pema Pera: Looking someone in their eyes would see something, and something very important -- but perhaps not everything, perhaps not aspects that can come out here.
Gaya Ethaniel: SL lacks that for sure
Kristen Lefevre: people here could decide you are right and never return to second life!
Gaya Ethaniel: I can't smell flowers here
Kristen Lefevre: but the paradox is that it would prove it is real, and has meaning
Gaya Ethaniel: Gaya cannot smell flowers here*
Pema Pera: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Not looking for what's real...
Gaya Ethaniel: Just want to be fully be
Gaya Ethaniel: SL helps me to do so
Gaya Ethaniel: For me at least
Wol Euler nods
Kristen Lefevre: good ideas
Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you AC. My CD I last listened to was OST Sense and Sensibility.
Attorney Constantine: I don't know it.
Gaya Ethaniel: Ah Jane Austen... a film. Screen play by Emma Thompson
Gaya Ethaniel: Many versions out there of Austen's work
Gaya Ethaniel: Kinda classical :P
Attorney Constantine: My last one, believe it or not was an audible book by D'Nesh D'Sousa.

By now the session has been going on for a couple hours, and it is time for most of us to leave.

Avastu Maruti: good bye my friends
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Wol Euler: (sorry, I must go. Kristen's time is short and I promised to help her with her appearance. Bye all; AC nice to meet you. I hope you find what you are looking for)
Pema Pera: bye Avastu!
Wol Euler: bye avastu
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Pema Pera: by Wol!
Gaya Ethaniel: See you Wol
Wol Euler: bye all
Kristen Lefevre: I nudged her into it
Kristen Lefevre: blame me
Pema Pera: bye Kirsten!
Pema Pera: :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Wol Euler: kristen, I'll TP you :-)
Kristen Lefevre: bye Pema
Kristen Lefevre: thanks wol
Attorney Constantine: You are great people. Thank you for allowing me to sit with you. I hope to see you all again.
Kristen Lefevre: bye Gaya, AC
Pema Pera: thankyou for coming here, AC
Kristen Lefevre: nice meeting you all
Gaya Ethaniel: Have fun Kristen. Hope to see you again.

At this point, I remembered our attempt to weave together the two strands from the time when AC had entered, his questioning of the reality of SL and our trying to point out how SL can be a mirror of sorts for SL. Alas, I was not quick enough, and AC disappeared just at the time my sentence appeared.

Pema Pera: If I may add one more thing
Pema Pera: all ancient traditions invite us to "wake up", to see what we really are.
One way to try to do that is to go from SL to RL and go one step further,
from Second Life to First Life to Zeroth Life. Zeroth Life is "waking up"
in the sense of Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, Sufi, Hindu, etc.
Pema Pera: oops
Pema Pera: oh well :)
Gaya Ethaniel: oh
Pema Pera: hahaha
Gaya Ethaniel: hm...
Gaya Ethaniel: ah crashed looks like
Pema Pera: That was a very inspiring session, Gaya, thanks for your contributions too!
Gaya Ethaniel: You too Pema. Was fascinating watching you and AV conversing
Gaya Ethaniel: It was highly energetic... hm... something like that
Pema Pera: and seeing you and AC talking too!
Pema Pera: yeah, the sense of energy here is palpable sometimes
Gaya Ethaniel: I could see the reasons behind his questions regarding SL...
Pema Pera: another thing that AC will experience if he stays here long enough
Pema Pera: oh yes!
Gaya Ethaniel nods
Pema Pera: I would have asked the same questions before getting into virtual worlds
Pema Pera: they are the right questions
Gaya Ethaniel nods 'yes a good starting point'
Pema Pera: and nice for him to get different answers from all of us :)
Gaya Ethaniel nods