2008.08.18 19:00 - Sure

Thorberg was the guardian, that evening. He sent me (Pema) the chat log, and I put it up and provided a title.

Thorberg Nordlicht: hello Threedee
Threedee Shepherd: hi
Thorberg Nordlicht: hmm, I seem to be levatating
Threedee Shepherd: Somehow I suddenly think there ought to be a tune called "The Levitation Waltz"
Thorberg Nordlicht: :-)
Adelene Dawner: I hope Pema pops in for one of the meetings soon... or maybe Avastu, that'd be fun to watch. I want to know what they think of the word 'grok' in terms of being Language of the Absolute or Language of the Relative.
Threedee Shepherd: haha, if they know it. I vote for LoA
Adelene Dawner: I say both.
Adelene Dawner: Hi Doug!
Threedee Shepherd: Ho Doug
doug Sosa: hi both. :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: You been reading Heinlein, Adelene?
Adelene Dawner: Yup. In the middle of a re-read of Stranger right now.
doug Sosa: well, three. i forget to say hello to the lion, reminds me
doug Sosa: of the lion on the NY pubic library i used to pet all the time.
Threedee Shepherd: Purr
Adelene Dawner wonders if Doug groks 'grok'. ^.^
doug Sosa: grok
Threedee Shepherd: Suddenly I wonder, are verbs disproportionately LoA?
doug Sosa: LOA?
Adelene Dawner: hmm... don't think so, except the 'to be' forms, which grok is, in a sense.
Threedee Shepherd: Language of Absolute, LoR=Language of Relative
Adelene Dawner: any variant of 'go' for example, implies places, which is LoR.
Threedee Shepherd: Jump
doug Sosa: LOA?
doug Sosa: hmm.
Threedee Shepherd: Language of Absolute, LoR=Language of Relative
Adelene Dawner: (talking about concepts I already have words for is fine... trying to build new ones is not working at the moment.)
Adelene Dawner: anyway... 'jump' implies a motion through several points of space, and space is LoR.
Thorberg Nordlicht: hello doug
doug Sosa: i locked up my chat..
Threedee Shepherd: I thought space is everywhere and thus IS is not a relevant word for it
Adelene Dawner: Anyway, yeah... space and time are both LoR, in that there is Here/Now and *not* Here/Now involved in those concepts.
doug Sosa: wherever we ar, we are always i the middle.. :)
Threedee Shepherd: SPACE is everywhere and unitary, space is a relative construct, I suggest
Adelene Dawner: There is a way of looking at space or time that is LoA, yes, Three. But 'jumping' makes little to no sense from that perspective.
Threedee Shepherd: agreed
doug Sosa: i like thinkingthat space and time are both in something larger. being?
Adelene Dawner: Yes, Doug
Threedee Shepherd: just thinking Doug, that's easier for me to grasp about space than time
Threedee Shepherd: As in, ALL SPACE exists all at once, but I do not experience time that way
doug Sosa: i love the saying, "Time is what keeps everything fom happening all at once."
Threedee Shepherd: Hey, that's my original line !!!
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
doug Sosa: didn't know you were that old?
Threedee Shepherd: ha ha
Threedee Shepherd: Or to paraphrase some old "guy" There's nothing new in the BEING
Thorberg Nordlicht: Le temps est ce qui empêche que tout soit donné tout d'un coup. [Time keeps everything from happening all at once.] -- Henri Bergson
Thorberg Nordlicht: but I confess, I Googled it in another window
Threedee Shepherd: :)
doug Sosa: fabulous.
Thorberg Nordlicht: how would we know one way or another whether all time exists at once, when we only experience it moment to moment?
doug Sosa: well, we don't experience time but only things shifting position relative to each othe, no?
Thorberg Nordlicht: "time doesn't pass; the hands on the clock just go around"
doug Sosa: time..space...being...and feelings...
Threedee Shepherd: Well, I observe *lots* of spatiality all at once, and then infer beyond to all space. I never see lots of time at once (or else life would be MUCH easier:) )
Adelene Dawner: Ha!
doug Sosa: hm
Thorberg Nordlicht: but might that be only a limitation in our experience, and not indicative of the true nature of time?
Adelene Dawner: Hey Three - if you *were* seeing lots of time at once, how would you know?
Threedee Shepherd: Like two movies playing overlapped on the same screen, perhaps??
doug Sosa: love that question.
Adelene Dawner thinks she and Thor just asked the same question ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: time is tied to entropy in a way space is not
Adelene Dawner: Answer the question, Three. What makes the amount of time you're percieving not be 'a lot'?
doug Sosa: fels to me very abstract. Entropy is impaortant but isn't it outside experience?
Threedee Shepherd: Not at all, Doug, Have you ever see a small pool of water on a hot sidewalk spontaneously turn into a block of Ica?
Threedee Shepherd: Ice
Threedee Shepherd: I still pondering Adelene's question. with any luck, I'll ponder past the end tothe session :)
Threedee Shepherd: of the
Adelene Dawner: Then I'll ask it again tomorrow. ^.^
doug Sosa: I do see evaporation but i don't think that is seeing entropy. entropy is an interpretation, a vey iportant one.
Adelene Dawner o.Os at Doug.
Threedee Shepherd: Amopunt of time depends on the abstraction we call memory, or imagination
Adelene Dawner: oh, wait, 'interpretation', not 'interruption' Important difference.
Threedee Shepherd: Doug, you force me to state MY rephrase of the 2nd Law of thermodynamics: You can't make straw by pushing shit up a horse's ass.
Adelene Dawner: And, Three, I think you already know how much of what we experience we don't even become consciously aware of in the first place, much less bother to code into memory. So that's not reliable.
Threedee Shepherd: :)
Threedee Shepherd: And of course there is the Zen interpretation (not original to me) Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Threedee Shepherd: Ade, I think you are asking "What is time" for which I like Bergson's quote, but really have no answer in the BEING sense, (yet).
Adelene Dawner: :)
doug Sosa: i need to shift space... by :)
Adelene Dawner has written down on a post-it, and should perhaps put on her monitor: "Know Not-Knowing".
Threedee Shepherd: how about time is death (to which you may answer, what is death, I know)
Thorberg Nordlicht: Yes, "Know Not-Knowing" or alternately, "Just do not knowing"
Threedee Shepherd: add "Being Not-Doing"
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Or Be Doing, if it suits you. ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: either works :)
Adelene Dawner: Which swings back around to 'grok', I think.
Thorberg Nordlicht: grok: to understand profoundly and intuitively - Merriam-Webster online
Adelene Dawner: The way I see it, LoA is passive - Being - and LoR is active - Doing. Kind of. But 'grok' is an active Being... Being Doing.
Adelene Dawner: Or Doing Being.
Adelene Dawner: If there's a difference.
Threedee Shepherd: Time is the fact that I cannot eat an ear of corn at the same *time* I put the seed-kernal in the ground.
Threedee Shepherd: it's seed kernal I should clarify
Adelene Dawner hmms at Threedee's inability to conceptualize in 4 dimensions.
Threedee Shepherd: whether I can or not, I have morfe teeth at this *time* than when I was born
Adelene Dawner: Ok, here's an angle... is Mark-as-a-toddler any less real than Mark-at-this-time?
Threedee Shepherd: yes
Adelene Dawner hmms.
Threedee Shepherd: although each in thir own way is just a construct
Adelene Dawner: yes... I was talking about relative reality, not absolute reality.
Adelene Dawner: (in the normal senses of the words 'relative' and 'absolute', though the senses we usually use work too.)
Threedee Shepherd: I think in LoA the only *time* reference is NOW, and indeed, now is all at once. (So what???)
Saira Collas: good evening
Adelene Dawner: Hullo, Saira :)
Threedee Shepherd: hello Saira
Thorberg Nordlicht: Hello, Saira; welcome
Saira Collas nods politely: thank you
Adelene Dawner: One of us isn't groking LoA's now, and I don't think it's me. LoA's now *contains* past and future, doesn't exclude them.
Threedee Shepherd: Saira, you have come to a timeless (endless) discussion group that meets four times daily, have you been here before?
Saira Collas: no, it looks like the spirits have guided me here tonight
Adelene Dawner: If we knew where we were going, there'd be no point in the journey, Thor. Saira, we record these conversations, do you mind if we log your comments?
Thorberg Nordlicht: anybody have the URL handy for Saira?
Saira Collas: sure
Adelene Dawner: http://playasbeing.wik.is/
Adelene Dawner: Thanks, Saira. :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: thanks, Adelene
Threedee Shepherd: ambiguity alert! does the single word sure mean yes or no?
Threedee Shepherd: ;D
Thorberg Nordlicht: i use it to mean "yes, certainly"
Adelene Dawner: As do I
Threedee Shepherd: just being punny
Saira Collas: it worked
Adelene Dawner bops the lion. ^.^
Thorberg Nordlicht: dictionary definition for "sure" is long so won't paste it here; see http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sure
Threedee Shepherd: That's awfully close to predestination
Saira Collas: LoA?
Thorberg Nordlicht: what is "LoA"?
Threedee Shepherd: (predestination: the station you come to before the one you get off at :)
Adelene Dawner: Language of the Absolute, as opposed to Language of the Relative, Saira.
Saira Collas: aye
Adelene Dawner: And, I'm blanking on definitions again. Three, wanna go?
Thorberg Nordlicht: definition of?
Adelene Dawner: Definition of LoA and LoR.
Adelene Dawner: Which won't be online, I bet.
Adelene Dawner: googled. Google fails. :D
Threedee Shepherd: In a roundabout way. Start by recognizing that all BEING is absolute oneness, although the daily experience of living has rellativeness such as now/then big/small good/bad. Each has its language, the way we speak it here at PaB.
Threedee Shepherd: But, Saira, I fear we will scare you off with our jargon before you get to know us. and I hope if you get to know us, that you might become a "regular"
Saira Collas: well, i don't scare off easily, but i wonder alot
Saira Collas: that is how i came here, is it not?
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Saira Collas giggles.
Adelene Dawner: You'll fit in well, I think.
Threedee Shepherd: PaB is not any doctrine, and many of the members are comfortable with many aspects of Buddhist thought.
Adelene Dawner: conversation right now is a bit of topic. Time and LoA and LoR are *very* on topic. If we're being LoR enough to *have* on-topic and off-topic, anyway. ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: time is actually deeply tied up with the practice, especially in terms of observing and not necessarily building castles in the future air
Saira Collas: i am a Deityist
Threedee Shepherd: Please say more
Threedee Shepherd: I know Diest but not Deityist
Threedee Shepherd: Deist
Adelene Dawner groks that the nines are a means to an end, Thor. Interesting toy. Useful, perhaps. ^.^
Saira Collas: yea diest
Threedee Shepherd: what is Deityist, I ask seriously?
Saira Collas: Unlike nondominational I do not believe that all religions are correct in there practice, like Buddhist I believe the calibration of god comes with in ones self not within a book or building
Adelene Dawner: This wikipedia page, particularly the second sentence thereof, is relevant to Three and Saira's conversation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_(philosophy) ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: I do not think Buddhists use the term god in any way that reflects western religion
Saira Collas: i said "like"
Saira Collas: similar but not the same
Thorberg Nordlicht: please expand on that; our discussion here is informed by many traditions and points of view
Threedee Shepherd: not criticising, just trying to clarify
Saira Collas: isn't buddhism learning to get in touch with ones innerself?
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, i agree we are in the domaine of the Wikipedia quote: "The Absolute is the concept of an absolute, unconditional reality which transcends limited, conditional, everyday existence. It is often used as an alternate term for "God" or "The Divine", especially, but by no means exclusively, by those who feel that the term "God" lends itself too easily to anthropomorphic presumptions. "
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, and ultimately ones inner self is an integral part of all Being
Adelene Dawner: 'part of Being' doesn't parse well, Three.
Thorberg Nordlicht: I can agree with Buddhistm as "getting in touch with one's innerself"; a Buddhist might rephrase as "everyone has Buddha nature" and Buddhism is the practice of cultivating and realizing one's Buddha nature
Threedee Shepherd: I know but even *I* can have trouble finding a word every now and then
Threedee Shepherd: :)
Adelene Dawner: Being is Everything, undivided, no parts, especially not integral or non-integral ones. In LoA, that is. And that includes all of us here, within it., in every sense
Saira Collas: dietism is an expantion on that is some areas, we relie on our own inner voice to tell us what is right or wrong and how to live our lives, a book or building cannot do that, further more, a book or building can be used as forms of power with tend to corupt
Saira Collas: which
Threedee Shepherd: Sunday morning I suggested--as a metaphor--that being is fractal, its overall pattern is the same no matter what scale you observe it on.
Adelene Dawner: interestingly true, Three.
Adelene Dawner thinks she remembers Pema having said that any part *is* the whole.
Threedee Shepherd: Saira, if I didn't want to risk scaring you off, again, I would ask, what is right and wrong? :)
Threedee Shepherd: Saira, Pema is one of the about 35 people who frequest this group
Adelene Dawner: Pema is among those of us who grok LoA at least a little. Not all of the 35 do, yet.
Threedee Shepherd: At each session 1 AM, 7 AM, 1 PM and 7 PM Linden Time, different folks semirandomly attend, typically 5-10
Saira Collas: most of us is born with an inner voice, they call it and id, to me it's a gift from god to tell us right from wrong
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Saira Collas: the trick is can we aviod doing wrong and learn to be truely rightous, true rightousness lightens our soul so we can one day drift us to heaven, wrong gives us guilt which sinks out souls like a rock
Saira Collas: diest are all a little diffrent
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Saira Collas: i believe once you float up to heaven you are confrount by others who have been their before you, you then clash your ideals agaisnt theirs. if you have been lieing to yourself about your own self rightousness it will surely be revied there and you will fall
* Thorberg Nordlicht: As I mentioned, our discussion is informed by many traditions and points of view. You comments employ terminology I haven't heard here before, but we may be saying the same thing in different terms.
Saira Collas: so you are only seeking absolute?
Saira Collas: seeking only absolute
Thorberg Nordlicht: Seeking to experience the absolute, but perhaps expressing it in different ways, reflecting each individual's unique experience.
Thorberg Nordlicht: For example, you use the term "heaven" which doesn't come up a lot so far in the discussions I've participated in here, but I try to relate it to the often misrepresented term "nirvana"
Saira Collas: my heaven is my nirvana
Thorberg Nordlicht: I certainly can't take issue with that.
Saira Collas: is nirvana for you, floating peacefuly amoung a group of soul, or joyfully playing with a group of souls?
Thorberg Nordlicht: anyone? Is there a commonality between Saira's notion of heaven and nirvana?
Thorberg Nordlicht: I mean "... and a notion of nirvana as we might expect to hear it in PasB discussion"?
Adelene Dawner: I haven't worked with the concept of 'nirvana' to know, Thor.
Threedee Shepherd: Well, heaven often is contrasted with Hell. I don't know that there is an equivalent contrasting concept in traditional Buddhism, or at least not one that is stressed.
Thorberg Nordlicht: My interest is in the Zen buddhist tradition,, where the notion of nirvana has to do with the "cessation of suffering" through Buddhist practice. I wondering whether we can relate that to the notion of "heaven" from other traiditons.
Saira Collas: i don't worry about hell, hell might be a made up place do give rightous or fearful poeple hope
Thorberg Nordlicht: Western Buddhist's sometimes use the notion of "Hell" in reference to extremely painful delusion -- "Being in Hell" as a state of mind rather than an actual place.
Saira Collas: do you believe the dead can feel our thoughts and wish when they demand them?
Thorberg Nordlicht: I can't say I know much about the dead. I haven't died yet. I'm not trying to be cute or clever in saying that. It's just that Buddhism in general and Zen in particular focus on what can be directly experienced in the here and now.
Saira Collas: i hope i am not being to demanding for a newbie
Threedee Shepherd: not at all, listening to and sharing such conversations clearly is part of what PaB is.
Thorberg Nordlicht: "too demanding"? No, not at all.
Thorberg Nordlicht: The challange is that you're coming to us from a different perspective with a different terminology than I've heard in the discussions I've heard here in the past.
Adelene Dawner: Which is good, I think.
Thorberg Nordlicht: But, speaking for myself, I *like* the challange.
Thorberg Nordlicht: the question is, are we saying the same thing in very much different ways, or are we expressing real differences of opinion?
Thorberg Nordlicht: For example, I don't think in terms of "souls", not because I don't think there is such a thing, but only because, as far as I can remember, I've always been in this body, and have never experienced myself as a "soul" separate from this body.
Saira Collas: i think there is an absolute, we are just seeing it with diffrent eyes
Thorberg Nordlicht: I can certainly agree with that.
Saira Collas: to pose a deep related question, does the color green that i see look red or some other color to you
Threedee Shepherd: I cannot know.
Threedee Shepherd: Even more than that I cannot know, Saira, does it matter?
Saira Collas: no
Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, why do you pose that question at this juncture in the conversation?
Saira Collas: it goes along with the absolute deliema
Thorberg Nordlicht: Perhaps we all experience the absoute in our own way,and therefore express it in different terms.
Thorberg Nordlicht: Some traditions seem to emphasize how things are expressed, and others emphasize the experience regardless of how it is expressed.
Saira Collas: we know or might know what is absolute for us, even though it is diffrent from every body else. like we know that the grass is green (or is suposed to be) but in our separate eyes it might appear in diffrent hues
Thorberg Nordlicht: For example, many conservative Christians seem to be very insistent that the "Truth" (with a captal "T") *must* be expressed in only one certain way, otherwise it's not "the Truth"
Saira Collas: which is one reason why i am a diest
Saira Collas: :p
Threedee Shepherd: :)
Thorberg Nordlicht: usually we the discussion goes from 7 to 8, and tonight it's almost 9, so we must all think this is a very interesting conversation
Thorberg Nordlicht: but, unfortunatley, I will have to leave now; RL is calling
Thorberg Nordlicht: thank you for joining us Saira
Saira Collas nods politely
Threedee Shepherd: yes, Saira, I hope you come again
Saira Collas: i may wonder here again, but i am sure my words will always be present
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Thorberg Nordlicht: yes, thnk you
Thorberg Nordlicht: good night folks
Saira Collas: night