2008.08.21 19:00 - The Song of "Just Imagine"

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    Pia Iger was the guardian. Both she and her computer was sleepy.

    Adams and Pema helped her posted the log. This is 2hr long session. Please don't miss the second half of log (after Adams left) ! Many aspects of Being were discussed. And bonus, Pema was singing... Avastu smiling...

    Adams Rubble is posting this part of the log for Pia with few comments. I came in on an ongoing conversation between Mongo, Threedee, Adelene and Doug. Tomo, Kojiro and Navi arrived right after me.


    Mongo McGinnis: whats up
    Mongo McGinnis: havent been here in a while
    Adelene Dawner feels like being a smartass... "Good question... what is 'up'?"
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Mongo McGinnis: just an iinocent question
    MystiTool HUD 1.0.21-freebie: Entering chat range: doug Sosa (17m)
    Kojiro Eretz: Hi all!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Adelini, Mongo, Kojiro, Threedee Doug Tomo :)
    Threedee Shepherd: nothing unusual, or is it "nothing is unusual"?
    Threedee Shepherd: hello all
    doug Sosa: :)
    Kojiro Eretz: So..... quiet.....
    Adams Rubble: shhhh
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Kojiro Eretz: XD
    Mongo McGinnis: does pema pera come here anymore
    Adams Rubble: yes, often
    Threedee Shepherd: of course, often
    Mongo McGinnis: used to him
    Mongo McGinnis: whAT IS THE DISCUSSION
    doug Sosa: he is in kyoto, so lets see. what time breakfast?
    Mongo McGinnis: soory didnt meant o shout
    Mongo McGinnis: that explains it nyc or japan
    Threedee Shepherd: the discussiono "tries" to start with us reporting about our 9-sec practice experiences, and then actually goes almost anywhere about the nature of reality
    Kojiro Eretz: I tried that 9 second meditation once or twice today ( im new :P)
    Threedee Shepherd: 4 times a day!!

    Stevenaia appeared next followed by Pia

    Kojiro Eretz: one image came to mind
    Kojiro Eretz: A little anime girl saying hi... thats about it.
    Threedee Shepherd: was she familiar?
    Adams Rubble: Hi Steve, hi Pia :)
    Kojiro Eretz: No not really.
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Steve, Pia
    doug Sosa: hi pia
    Kojiro Eretz: Hi :D
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello, welcome back Kojiro
    Kojiro Eretz: Thank you ^^
    Mongo McGinnis: i am already getting critized for being here
    Pia Iger: Hi, everyone,
    Mongo McGinnis: hi
    Adams Rubble: Mongo?
    doug Sosa: criticized?
    Mongo McGinnis: adams
    Adams Rubble: criticized?
    Threedee Shepherd: Mongo, not by us, I hope, seriously :)
    Mongo McGinnis: yes you guys are weird according rto my friend and family
    Adams Rubble: Ah
    Adams Rubble: Say hi for us :)
    Mongo McGinnis: mets win
    Mongo McGinnis: that my ;ife
    Mongo McGinnis: mets sweep atalantq braves
    Threedee Shepherd: What is weird about us?
    stevenaia Michinaga: ..says the lion
    Adams Rubble: hehe

    Keith Joined us

    Mongo McGinnis: no idea just my wife came in and said mets sweep the atlanta braves
    Adams Rubble: Hllo Keith :)
    Threedee Shepherd: This lion is not weird, because it is not real, and how can unreal things even BE, let alone be real
    Keith Sporg: hi how are you?
    Threedee Shepherd: Keith, you have dropped in on an ongoing discussion group that talks about the nature of reality
    Threedee Shepherd: Hello
    Mongo McGinnis: hi
    Mongo McGinnis: havent been here in a while
    Pia Iger: Keith is born today.
    Mongo McGinnis: whats the discussion
    Keith Sporg: that sounds interesting
    Kojiro Eretz: Happy birthday Keith!
    Keith Sporg: yes im new to this game
    Threedee Shepherd: no topic has emerged at this session, yet
    Keith Sporg: thanks :-)
    Mongo McGinnis: keith rules haapy birthday
    Keith Sporg: yall are a lot nicer than the last people I was aroud
    Keith Sporg: yes I do!! yayy
    Keith Sporg: but I really want to make some new friends
    doug Sosa: we are pretty friendly, spend time talking about how we experience the world in short bursts of meditation.
    Keith Sporg: sounds good to me
    Keith Sporg: its relaxing
    Keith Sporg: that is wut i need in my life right now
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell
    doug Sosa: keith, do you know how to sit on the cushion?
    Threedee Shepherd: doug, that is a really useful and informative description :)
    Mongo McGinnis: i am a big zen buddhist for over 30 years
    Keith Sporg: nope no idea
    Keith Sporg: lemme try
    Keith Sporg: ok there
    doug Sosa: beautiful!
    Threedee Shepherd: Mongo, which "school"
    Keith Sporg: does anyone here want to add me as a friend and help me out when I could use it?
    Mongo McGinnis: zen and rinzai
    Mongo McGinnis: Mountains and rivers in mt tremper
    doug Sosa: sure but i don't yet know how to do that.
    Keith Sporg: do whats?add friends?
    doug Sosa: yep.
    doug Sosa: hey i got it.
    Mongo McGinnis: soto and rinzai
    Keith Sporg: hey i did too :-)
    Threedee Shepherd: Mongo, is there a "koan group" in SL?
    Mongo McGinnis: i like shugen
    Mongo McGinnis: not sure
    Pia Iger: (thanks, fellow guardians, Pia's internet is slow today. Thanks for your help of hosting.)
    Pia Iger: but I am listening. just type slow.
    Mongo McGinnis: i like myotai the best but she broke off MRO
    doug Sosa: here we do short 9 second meditations during the day and then report on them here, whre we meet 4 times a day. but most ofcourse don't come to all sessions.
    Keith Sporg: i set this as my home.yall all are very kind.I am going to make some money and I will be back
    Adams Rubble: Hello Navi :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Come again Keith
    doug Sosa: how do you make money?
    Kojiro Eretz: Good luck with the money earning.
    doug Sosa: guess we'll have to wait and find out.
    Mongo McGinnis: computers
    Kojiro Eretz: It's hard to make money in SL if you don't have ingame knowledge about building things :/
    doug Sosa: I've none.
    Mongo McGinnis: i make money by making cinnections and kearning new skills
    Mongo McGinnis: but mostly i am here for the buddhism and zen
    Kojiro Eretz: I originally came on to meet other people who like anime ...but.....
    doug Sosa: what do you hope for from these two?
    Kojiro Eretz: Most of the people I found were... immature about things...
    doug Sosa: oh we all got mature and are now hopingto be immature again.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Kojiro Eretz: XD
    Threedee Shepherd: Lately in my 9-sec, my most common observation is of "everything" in my field of view, for which this is no one term, and thus, no word, even though each of the parts "has" a word..
    Threedee Shepherd: *there is
    doug Sosa: do you have a sense of what is beyond the field of view? I find that is part of it.
    Mongo McGinnis: this is who iam fom begiinig to end imagine a two year talking about emptiness
    Threedee Shepherd: No doug, I do not
    stevenaia Michinaga: do you sense themes over time like this, my experiences are generally unique
    doug Sosa: that is intriguing. is it like a room with no outside?


    Pema Joins Us

    Adams Rubble: Hi Pema :)
    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
    Kojiro Eretz: Hi! :D
    Mongo McGinnis: hi pema
    Threedee Shepherd: Sometimes I am outside and see mountains and trees, 45 minutes, I saw the long sidewalk I was on as if it were a long path in a filed of houses and green.
    Threedee Shepherd: Ho i Pema
    Threedee Shepherd: *field
    doug Sosa: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: 45 minutes ago, I meant to say
    Threedee Shepherd: <aside> this keyboard MUST be switching letters around, it can't be me :(
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Kojiro Eretz: Maybe it needs to be cleaned?
    Mongo McGinnis: new people here since i was here you have a good group pema
    Pema Pera: Thanks, Mongo, and great seeing you again -- has been a while!
    Pema Pera: last time was in the old tea house perhaps?
    Mongo McGinnis: yes
    Kojiro Eretz: Is it strange not to have any speratic thoughts during these 9 second meditation periods?
    Threedee Shepherd: Doug, you said "what is beyond the field of view? I find that is part of it." Can you say more about "whatr is beyond" in your experience?
    doug Sosa: tuna being grilled gotta rescue it. but one last thought Three.
    Threedee Shepherd: No, Kojoiro, that happens for me often.
    doug Sosa: i experience what i can see as in a container of effortless being.
    Kojiro Eretz: Ah, ok then.

    Avastu arrives as Doug departs

    doug Sosa: bye.. (as the smoke comes in)..
    Adams Rubble: Hello Avastu :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Evening Avastu
    Pema Pera: Hi Avastu!
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friends
    Kojiro Eretz: Hi there :D
    Mongo McGinnis: hi whats up
    Pema Pera: Thank you, Pia, for helping us to get organized with the excerpt project!
    Pema Pera: Mongo, we have had 500 or so sessions now
    Pema Pera: and we're trying to get some of the most fun parts selected
    Pia Iger: You're welcome. Just IMed Syl, we got some foundations done.
    Pema Pera: a very hard task of course
    Pema Pera: and very ambiguous
    Pema Pera: everyone has different preferences
    Pema Pera: but together we can make a mashup, a collection
    Mongo McGinnis: what is up at the present moment no offense just wonderindering what people are thinking right now
    Kojiro Eretz: ... Trying to think of... what to think.....
    Pia Iger needs to keep poking fellow guardians for the project.
    Mongo McGinnis: non thinking??? or something else
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s like walking into the middle of a story, it takes a moment to get up to speed
    Threedee Shepherd: ...I apologize in advance for this Mongo: What I thought when you typed that is that you keep asking that question and not offering a topic.
    Mongo McGinnis: havent been here for a while just wondering what we have been up to or discussing
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, my sense is that we have only one topic, BEING, and that we spiral and eddy around it in many ways, not trying to "get" anywhere in particular.
    Mongo McGinnis: soory talk and i will add in when i have something to say
    Adams Rubble: Sorry sleep overtaking. bye everyone :)
    Pema Pera: bye Adams
    Kojiro Eretz: G night Adams


    Adams left here prematurely. Pema posted the balance of log.

    First, Pema explained more about 9-sec practice to new people.


    Threedee Shepherd: G'night Adams
    Mongo McGinnis: good night adams
    Kojiro Eretz: Is it ok to not be able to meditate every 15 minutes? I can't exactly stop like that when im working. :/
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, thank you all

    Pema Pera: well, Mongo, we do many things: we playfully chat about life on all kind of levels, and indeed we try to spiral into the notion of Being
    Pema Pera: and it all rests on the exploration, every 15 minutes of the 9-sec practice
    Pema Pera: have you tried it?
    Pema Pera: to drop everything for 9 seconds?
    Mongo McGinnis: ok sounds good i will try for a week
    Pema Pera: wonderful! I look forward to hearing what you find
    Pema Pera: just a few hours a day is fine, say ten times a day -- or longer, some of us do it the whole day
    Pema Pera: a few dozen times or more
    Pema Pera: and it doesn't have to be precisely every 15 minutes either
    Pema Pera: some like regularity
    Mongo McGinnis: ok that is what i will do tomorrow
    Pema Pera: some prefer more spontaneity

    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, sometimes I have the sense that the 9-sec takes me, not me it, and I go with it.
    stevenaia Michinaga: see you soon
    Mongo McGinnis: i tend to get focuesd and ignore everything else kind of focused that way
    Pema Pera: bye Steve!
    Threedee Shepherd: night Steve
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    Kojiro Eretz: See ya
    Pema Pera: yes, 3D !!
    Pia Iger: sure, Kojiro. no need to be strict about time.
    Mongo McGinnis: steve gnight
    Pema Pera: Korjiro, ah, the interesting question is wht is means to "stop" :-)
    Kojiro Eretz: Ok cool ^_^;;
    Pema Pera: there are many ways
    Kojiro Eretz: Oh?

    Pema Pera: at first good to do it only when you are only and relaxed
    Pema Pera: but after some practice you can even do it when you are talking with someone
    Pema Pera: Doug described that very nicely recently
    Pema Pera: for 9 sec you set aside your normal reactions and judgments
    Pema Pera: and you just listen
    Pema Pera: and when someone asks a question you just answer
    Pema Pera: "just" without adding anything

    Kojiro Eretz: What if you are listening most of the time like if it was just normal?
    Pema Pera: Doug reported how different the conversation became for him . . . .
    Pema Pera: what do you mean, Kojiro, can you say more?
    Kojiro Eretz: Well... most of the time when im with people... I mostly just listen.
    Pema Pera: yes, but there may be deeper layers of "just"
    Pema Pera: if you take a few seconds, we say 9, but that's just roughly, and you take a few deeper breaths and relax more, you may find a deeper "just"
    Pema Pera: "just a little deeper :-)"
    Pema Pera: try it, you'll like it!
    Kojiro Eretz: Heh ^_^

    Pema Pera: the first time may not be so different, but 20 times a day, then after a few days, by the 70th time, it may be *quite* different
    Pema Pera: but only you can tell, if you try it
    Pema Pera: and let us know what happened -- if nothing happens, that will be interesting too!
    Pema Pera wondering about a PaB song "just a little deeper" . . . . .
    Kojiro Eretz: I've been trying to remember to meditate like that since my discovery of this place last night
    Mongo McGinnis: i tend to fucus on a longerschdile than a few mins

    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, I find I still have a reflex reaction that "jumps" when I observe deeply and become aware of "more", which takes me out of it. Practice, I guess...
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Pema Pera: observing the jumping may be a fun move, for example
    Pema Pera: who is observing the you that jumps?
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Threedee Shepherd: :)

    Pia Iger: actually i just realized all 9 secs I have been done, makes me feel very "good" or "peaceful". I don't know what word to use. anyway the feeling is very comforting.
    Pema Pera: from the beginning, Pia?
    Mongo McGinnis: i find what i am doing is what iam doing that is not readly changed in a few mins
    Pia Iger: more and more clearly like this, Pema
    Pema Pera: no expectations needed, Mongo, they would just get in the way
    Pema Pera: and yes, combining it with longer practice is great
    Pia Iger: I find I can get happiness righ away, once I do 9sec anyway
    Pema Pera: then the 9-secs can provide the continuity between the longer ones
    Pema Pera: very glad to hear that, Pia!
    Pema Pera: I have also found something similar, that the 9-secs become more and more powerful the longer you practice
    Pema Pera: and the quality of "power" changes
    Pia Iger: It's like you already have happiness on hand, as long as you look at it.
    Pema Pera: becomes more subtle
    Pema Pera: yes, very much so!
    Pema Pera: like ground water welling up
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    Pema Pera: a lamp has power to shine, but opening the window requires far less power and gives much more light
    Pema Pera: subtle power is almost no power
    Kojiro Eretz: You go into the meditation with no expectations and feel happy the more you do it.. but then wouldn't you get the expectation of feeling happy when you do it more?
    Pema Pera: and no power at all is the best :)
    Pema Pera: that's the danger, yes
    Pema Pera: and then you have to drop that
    Pema Pera: but no rush!
    Threedee Shepherd: Put another way perhaps, Peme, no power is absolute power
    Pema Pera: might as well enjoy each stage for a while
    Pema Pera: yes, 3D, it is all contextual


    Pema gave concrete examples of no-power, not-doing .


    Pema Pera: and not-doing means no-power
    Pema Pera: and there are ten thousands ways of deepening not-doing
    Pema Pera: and no-power
    Pema Pera: I've learned quite a few in the few months of PaB!
    Pema Pera: almost daily sometimes
    Pia Iger: care to give an example?
    Pema Pera: Each time when I watch myself "doing" something in/for Pab, from talking in a meeting, to organizing, to talking off line to individuals, and so on, I see myself doing it by stepping aside, and by letting *something* do it -- and then when I look more closely I see something still remaining trying to do. And seeing it, I can then drop that too, as well as I can. And more and more, seeing is dropping, already
    Threedee Shepherd: "meaningful not-doing" is the apparent paradox that drives doing.

    Pema Pera: As for a concrete example: trying to help somebody by pointing something out -- and then realizing that the "helping" was too much. Then I reformulate the pointing out, and it becomes more pure, automatically
    Pema Pera: apparent paradox -- indeed!
    Mongo McGinnis: obviously every one has diff circumstances
    Pema Pera: Even more concrete: say that I think somebody does somethign a bit awkard, and I want to point that out. In the past (like, a week ago, hehe) I would have tried to gently point out the problem -- but more and more I learn to instead gently point to the more positive qualities, how they can be exercised more purely, while saying less or nothing about the problem -- is that concrete enough, Pia?
    Pia Iger: very. I experinced quite chanllenge of how point out other's issues.
    Pia Iger: Your example do give me insight of how to handle this kind of situations better.
    Mongo McGinnis: i was hoping others would talk more to get in sync with what you were talking about but this is good
    Pia Iger: or easily.
    Pema Pera: and one's one issues, too, Pia!
    Kojiro Eretz: I... tend to listen untill a good point comes into mind.


    The skill of pointing out someone's wrongness.

    Pema Pera: if I may add one footnote
    Pema Pera: telling someone they did something wrong has the grave danger or recfying what they did
    Pia Iger: no doubt.
    Pema Pera: instead of someone who once drops something, the person gets labeled as clumsy, say
    Pema Pera: for the person him/her-self too
    Adelene Dawner: mmmmm.
    Kojiro Eretz: Hmm
    Pema Pera: instead of lying, someone becomes a lier
    Pema Pera: instead of stealing, a thief
    Pema Pera: and the attempt to correct can instead put it in stone
    Pema Pera: having the opposite effect
    Threedee Shepherd: :)
    Pia Iger: but at the same time, we still need to do something, not just let them be. so the questions is how?
    Kojiro Eretz: One person just does an action but it takes another person to define the first person's character.
    Threedee Shepherd: Why do we have to, Pia?
    Mongo McGinnis: sorry have to do my worry beads tonight see tmorrrow
    Kojiro Eretz: G night Mongo
    Threedee Shepherd: bye Mongo
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    Kojiro Eretz: Nice meeting you
    Pema Pera: Suzuki roshi had a great way, Pia: in a circle of people who were cleaning their tea bowl, he corrected a person who already did it perfectly; and the others realized that they could improve their way, without their defense mechanism being triggered by the master scolding :-)
    Pema Pera: by Mongo!
    Pia Iger: so he is still doing the teaching, just not in scolding way. That is his skill.
    Pema Pera: yes!


    How to respond to others? There are subtle ways.

    Pema Pera: And 3D's question is a great one : do we have to?
    Pema Pera: yes and no
    Pema Pera: can't just let it go, that would be irresponsidble too
    Pema Pera: non-responding
    Pia Iger: right.
    Pema Pera: we have to respond, but how?
    Pema Pera: not-doing
    Pema Pera: but how?
    Pema Pera: we learn, and we help each other learning, right here, every day!
    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, If iI am not asked to respond, or "hired" to, or actually parenting, why must I respond?
    Pema Pera: we all respond
    Pema Pera: in a group
    Pema Pera: if only by silence
    Pia Iger: We are learning here by sharing each one's perspetive.

    Pema Pera: if we see one of us in the group in distress, we respond, we each respond, I think
    Threedee Shepherd: So, you are saying the responsibility to respond is contextual. When we gather in a group, that sets up contextual *expectations*?
    Pema Pera: perhaps more subtle, or more natural than that
    Pema Pera: walking in a crowd, we don't collide wiht others normally
    Pema Pera: which means we respond to ALL the people that we encounter
    Pema Pera: hundreds of them in a few seconds
    Threedee Shepherd: I can respond, "I see your distress" an/or try to give advice. It's doing the latter that I am questioning.
    Pema Pera: isn't that amazing?!?
    Pema Pera: yes, that would be the direct way
    Pema Pera: there are far more subtle ways
    Pema Pera: a smile
    Pema Pera: a nod
    Pema Pera: a kind question
    Pema Pera: perhaps hours later
    Pema Pera: an IM
    Pema Pera: or nothing!
    Kojiro Eretz: Im sorry.. I stepped away from my computer for a moment
    Kojiro Eretz: Did i miss much?
    Pema Pera: not commenting or trying to help can also be a form of respect
    Pema Pera: do you have your local chat window up, Kojiro?
    Kojiro Eretz: um... no

    There is a way of giving advice, without confrontation or trying to "correct".

    Threedee Shepherd: agreed. The subtle ways are not *advice*, but rather an invitation.
    Pema Pera: if so you can read the whole previous dialogue
    Kojiro Eretz: Ah... ok :P
    Pema Pera: sort-of-advice perhaps, through example, but labeling it that way is already a bit tricky
    Pema Pera: may I tell another Suzuki story?
    Pema Pera: sorry to talk so much . . . . .
    Threedee Shepherd: please do
    Pema Pera: He opened his zen center in a rough part of downtown San Francisco
    Pema Pera: some bad boys walked up to him, threateningly
    Pema Pera: one started talking, ready to jump on him
    Pema Pera: and asked him in a sneering way why he carried a stick
    Pema Pera: Suzuki smiled
    Pema Pera: slowly took his stick
    Pema Pera: and softly hit the bad guy on his shoulder, saying
    Pema Pera: "I have the stick to hit people like you guys"
    Pema Pera: they all laughed
    Pema Pera: and become good friends
    Pema Pera: so that was a way of giving advice, without confrontation or trying to "correct"

    Threedee Shepherd: In rather pragmatic terms, that is characterized as a "teachable moment"
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: in natural terms: it was all one flow
    Pema Pera: Suzuki Being
    Pema Pera: not premeditated at all
    Pema Pera: not afraid of the bad guys
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, there was/is a naturalness about the whole flow.

    Pema Pera: knowing that what he really was could never get hurt -- now THAT is part of using Being as a resource. If you believe you can get hurt, you can't act like Suzuki!
    Pema Pera: imitating him won't do, the bad boys would immediately "smell" your fear
    Threedee Shepherd: In part the naturalness comes from the fact that the bad guys were engaging suzuki, and thus a response from him *fit*. If I see someone doing something incorrectly, without reference to me, stepping in with advice is much less natural .
    Pema Pera: yes, stepping in would be a doing -- but there are still many ways to dance and respond
    Threedee Shepherd: IO need to enter into a pattern with the other as aprior necessity for the idea of "responding" make sense
    Pema Pera: In New York City in the subway I often witness a couple teenager boys about to get rough with each other, and then an older man from the same minority just saying a word, softly, kindly and both toning down.
    Pema Pera: beautiful not-doing

    From social patterns, the topic turned to time.

    Pema Pera: yes, 3D, and we are already in a pattern with anyone around us
    Pema Pera: just by being in the same place and time
    Threedee Shepherd: more or less, and in the moment, the degree of more or less is important. The older man was already in a "deeper" pattern by being of the "same minority"
    Pema Pera: yes, there has to be some hook
    Pema Pera: but each moment a totally new world appears
    Pema Pera: with totally new hooks
    Pema Pera: seeing means being ready for each moment
    Pema Pera: and the new hooks of each moment
    Threedee Shepherd: agreed. This may sound tangential, but I hope not. I am fond of saying that the best time to answer a question is when it is asked.
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: in the flow

    Pema Pera: time being unreal means not only something very small like feeling "born again" at some point in your life but seeing the whole world as "born again" each moment, in an "unborn way"
    Pema Pera: Suzuki seemed to have found a real sense of that
    Pema Pera: more and more while he got older
    Threedee Shepherd: The word "again" in born again, invokes more than just the moment
    Pema Pera: yes, and "again" is an approximation
    Pema Pera: better to drop that :)
    Pema Pera: and better to drop "born" too

    Pema Pera: "unborn" is more accurate
    Pema Pera: since nothing exists
    Pema Pera: only appearance seems to appear
    Kojiro Eretz: Reminds me of the void... again...
    Pema Pera: but not empty or nothing . . . beautiful beyond existence!
    Pema Pera: rich beyond any possibility of possession
    Pema Pera: intimate beyond any possibility of crossing distance

    Avastu pitched in a question about  "appearance".

    Avastu Maruti: Pema - can you, from a scientist's perspective, speak about "appearance"?
    Pema Pera: science isn't there yet
    Pema Pera: I'd giveit another 30,000 years or so, the rate we're going
    Pema Pera: but we're getting closer! quantum mechanics is closer than classical mechanics, definitely
    Kojiro Eretz: ?
    Pema Pera: in a few hundred years we'll have learned to study the subject
    Pema Pera: like we now study only objects
    Pema Pera: then in a few thousand years we may really know how to go beyond the subject-object split
    Pema Pera: and in a few tens of thousand years know how to get down to pure appearance
    Pema Pera: (rough guesses of course)

    Kojiro Eretz: Appearance?
    Pema Pera: this table in front of you, if we were in RL
    Pema Pera: would seem to be massive and solid
    Pema Pera: but really is given, emperically, in your experience
    Pema Pera: and your experience itself is an interpretation
    Kojiro Eretz: Could be an illusion
    Pema Pera: what really appears is appearance
    Pema Pera: and then we call it experience
    Pema Pera: and then we call it experience of a table outside us
    Pema Pera: but realy all that we can honestly agree that happens is appearance
    Pema Pera: but even that is not completely honest
    Kojiro Eretz: What we percieve?
    Pema Pera: the ing in appearing is not beyond doubt
    Pema Pera: still a hidden assumption, that there is time

    Pema Pera: all we see is appearance
    Pema Pera: an appearance of I and of seeing and of table
    Pema Pera: inner and outer
    Pema Pera: and Being is that which allows appearance
    Pema Pera: (not produces, manufacturs, creates)
    Pema Pera: we call an "i" and a "perceiver" what we interpret
    Pema Pera: "what we percieve" has many hidden assumptions ! ! !
    Avastu Maruti: So you're implying that we're not really inside the head looking out they eyes at an "outside" world?
    Pema Pera: indeed not
    Pema Pera: all that is "in" appearance
    Pema Pera: but words are tricky . . . . .
    Pema Pera: you probably would say "in awareness", right?
    Pema Pera: which is fine with me too! :)
    Avastu Maruti: awareness is also a word appearing
    Avastu Maruti: another idea
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: all are
    Avastu Maruti smiles
    Pema Pera smiles too

    All these questionable assumptions!

    Avastu Maruti: so it seems that we must question the very fundamental assumptions
    Pema Pera: all of them
    Pema Pera: time, space, information
    Pema Pera: anything
    Pema Pera: self, other, happening
    Pema Pera: but no rush :)
    Pema Pera: we can be gently with ourselves and each other . . . .
    Pema Pera: *gentle
    Avastu Maruti: it seems that if this table is actually a translation of actuality, then all the information or knowledge ever received is subject to question
    Adelene Dawner: ^.^
    Pema Pera: within its (illusionary) context, the information can be very precise, like the precision of a great movie, whith is very hard to make well!
    Pema Pera: but beyond that context it is just that -- an illusion
    Avastu Maruti: then how do we know the illusion?
    Pema Pera: is there a we? is there knowing? --- hehehe
    Pema Pera: sorry, can't help it, Avastu!
    Avastu Maruti smiles

    Pema Pera: these are deep questions
    Pema Pera: and I have only a small inkling of answers
    Pema Pera: what little I know is what I see
    Kojiro Eretz: Hmmm
    Pema Pera: and the more I see the more I can try to say
    Pema Pera: in that order only
    Threedee Shepherd: In BEING, the actuality and the illusion both are
    Adelene Dawner: I was pondering that earlier... and I think I found the inner edge of that ball of assumptions I've mentioned to you, Pem.
    Pema Pera: all is in Being, yes, 3D
    Pema Pera: yes, Adelene?


    causality is not really real?

    Adelene Dawner: The first assumption, that leads to the rest, seems to be the idea that the sensory input that we get actually *means* something.
    Adelene Dawner: Everything else builds on that. Even cause and effect.
    Pema Pera: yes, it has an inherent consistency that we *think* can ONLY be *caused* by there being something outside
    Pema Pera: but dream and movie are counter examples already

    Pema Pera: if only once in your life you get a real glimpse of the fact that causality is not really real, is illusionary . . . the peace and joy coming from that is impossible to describe

    Adelene Dawner: Well, a movie 'means' that someone made a movie and you're watching it for whatever reason...
    Pema Pera: yes, that part of the metaphor is not what I meant :)
    Pema Pera: an airplane is like a bird -- but doesn't flap its wings
    Adelene Dawner: an airplane isn't very much like a bird at all.
    Pema Pera: well, if somebody has never seen an airplane, what is your first sentence of exlanation?
    Pema Pera: like a bird -- seems like a good first sentence
    Pema Pera: and then you improve from there further
    Kojiro Eretz: "It's something that flys like a bird.. but not like a bird."
    Adelene Dawner: If 'how it works' is central, maybe. But how it works isn't central - what it does is. It's more like a bus, or a cart, in that way.
    Threedee Shepherd: causality is a locaL, piecewise linear approximation of BEING that is the whole
    Pema Pera: fair enough, Kojiro
    Pema Pera: that's true too, Adelene
    Pema Pera: many metaphors for one thing, like many shadows of the same stick

    Avastu dragged others back from their side track of interpreting metaphors.

    Avastu Maruti: so Pema can we say that this "appearance" seems to happen in Consciousness?
    Pema Pera: ultimately, nothing happens
    Pema Pera: there is the *appearance* of something happening
    Pema Pera: hapening is secondary
    Pema Pera: appearance is primary
    Avastu Maruti: so the appearance itself is "consciousness"?
    Pema Pera: prior to consciousness, I'd say -- when trying to give as accurate a meaning to those words as I can
    Avastu Maruti: what we call "consciousness"
    Pema Pera: yes, consciousness still has a bit a smell of "mine" in there, for me -- but perhaps not for you
    Pema Pera: appearance is neutral
    Pema Pera: in appearance there are no beings, no human beings either
    Pema Pera: only the appearance of them
    Pema Pera: and seeing that is true liberation
    Pema Pera: incredible
    Pema Pera: unsayable
    Threedee Shepherd: liberation from what?

    Avastu Maruti: you're awfully Absolute tonight, my friend... ;)
    Pema Pera: from all the illusions that hemmed us in
    Pema Pera: haha, Avastu, tonight is the night, it seems!
    Pema Pera: it helps that for me it is noon
    Pema Pera: hehe
    Threedee Shepherd: illusions are not, so what is?
    Pema Pera: Being is
    Threedee Shepherd: so
    Pema Pera: yes?

    Threedee Shepherd: Oneness does not necessarily imply homogeniety, does it?
    Pema Pera: oh no, not at all!
    Pema Pera: Being is beyond *all* dichotomies
    Pema Pera: including oneness and many-ness
    Pema Pera: including homegeneous and heterogeneous
    Pema Pera: personal and impersonal
    Pema Pera: etc
    Avastu Maruti: Sounds a lot like the Heart Sutra...
    Pema Pera: YES!
    Pema Pera: it IS the heart sutra
    Avastu Maruti: glad you're on point tonight, my friend.... ;)
    Threedee Shepherd: So there could be a table, not only the appearance of one, and my illusionary interaction that leads me to say table?
    Pema Pera: thanks, Avastu :)
    Pema Pera: oh yes, all part of the story, 3D

    Pema Pera: in Being, myriad stories (seem to) arise
    Pema Pera: we (seem to be) in one realm
    Pema Pera: starting with a Big Bang
    Pema Pera: and look, here we are after 13.7 billion years!
    Threedee Shepherd: In my daily life in the "relative world" I try not to bang my shins on low tables.
    Pema Pera: just one story . . . .
    Pema Pera: sure, part of the story
    Avastu Maruti: If I'm following, it would seem that the "person" is the root of all stories

    pema Pera: now, Being is the root

    Pema Pera: "person" is part of the furtniture
    Pema Pera: part of the story


    Pema Pera: hi Gen!
    Pema Pera: may i sing a song?
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi all!
    Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
    Kojiro Eretz: Hi :D

    Threedee Shepherd: a particular locus of consciousness, I would say, Avastu.
    Pema Pera: (not good at singing or rhyming though)
    Avastu Maruti: hmm, you mean, like a dream?
    Threedee Shepherd: a dream is one manifistation
    Threedee Shepherd: and that may even be a useful typo :)
    Avastu Maruti: yet it appears we cannot separate what we call the "waking state" from dreams
    Threedee Shepherd: all moments are manifestations of the brain-body functioning, that does not mean they are the same manifestations
    Avastu Maruti: that assumes the existence of a "brain-body", doesn't it?
    Threedee Shepherd: replace brain-body with consciousness, then
    Threedee Shepherd: lag, sorry
    Avastu Maruti: I think what Pema was saying is that these manifestations are only appearance
    Pema Pera: ultimately, yes

    Kojiro Eretz: Oh man you guys really discuss things in an interesting way... first time in a good while that something got my brain to really work ... i gotta go for the night though. Im definitly coming back to these meetings.
    Pema Pera: and that ultimately has huge relevance right here and now!
    Pema Pera: thanks for stopping by Kojiro!
    Threedee Shepherd: bye Koji
    Pema Pera: please do come back!
    Kojiro Eretz: G night all. and i will come back :D
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    genesis Zhangsun: bye Koji :)
    Kojiro Eretz: Hopefully i can input more next time :P
    Pema Pera: you're doing fine, Ko!

    Pema Pera: Hi Steve!
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello, long session?
    Pema Pera: poor Pia . . . .
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Genesis
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    Pia Iger: Pia plan to just park the AV here. no idea how long the session would be.

    Mmm, nobody got the cue to end the night :-(

    Threedee Shepherd: Can I take it from the statement that "manifestations are only appearance" that "manifestations are"
    stevenaia Michinaga: ..smile
    Pema Pera: Being is
    Pema Pera: and our attempt to call aspects of it "manifestations" are also appearances
    Pema Pera: but may I sing a little song?
    Threedee Shepherd: ok
    Pia Iger: Nooo
    Pema Pera: hahahaha
    Pema Pera: okay
    Avastu Maruti waits in anticipation
    Pema Pera: Pia said no
    Pema Pera: so no it is
    Pia Iger: kidding
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera: well, I wish I could sing but . . . . let me try to be in the spirit

    Pema Pera: just imagine . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . . that nobody would be caught anymore by a belief in causality
    Pema Pera: just imagine . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . . no more hangups about all that anyone has done wrong to us
    Pema Pera: just imagine . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . . no more thought and regret and remorse about what we have done wrong to others
    Pema Pera: just imagine . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . no more worry about the future, what to do, how to protect ourselves
    Pema Pera: just imagine . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . . just being able to open in love without any further ado
    Pema Pera: just imagine . . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . . using Being as a resource in that way
    Pema Pera: (end of song)

    Pema Pera takes a humble bow
    Threedee Shepherd: Pema, a possible metaphor: BEING is the infinitive form, Manifestations are the active form.
    Avastu Maruti has that song stuck in the head
    Avastu Maruti: now I have to go listen to some 80's music!
    Pema Pera: yes, many ways of looking and dealing with all that, 3D, but the base, the resource is Being, concretely so
    Pema Pera: hehe, Avastu
    Threedee Shepherd: I USE a resource
    Pema Pera: that's the problem
    Threedee Shepherd: my locus of consciousness is not the entire resource, only a part of the pattern.
    Threedee Shepherd: and the song said " using Being as a resource in that way" I note the word "using"
    Pema Pera: well, we can do two things at the same time: trying to keep in mind Being as a resource, and trying to figure out the details of the relative view, like what you're asking now, 3D -- it is like a child playing, knowing/trusting in the love of the mother (Being as resource) while also being wrapped up in toys (atttempts at explaining how everything works; causality is one of our most wondrous toys!
    Pema Pera: yes, 3D, words are tricky, and the song is not perfect, the "I USE" is a problem, I meant -- and "using" is strictly spearking a problem too . . . a way to wean us off using to something else . . . .
    Pema Pera: so no I for sure
    Pema Pera: and using only to wean off using
    Pema Pera: slowly gently letting it all come unglued
    Pema Pera: that's why a song works better than long explanations like this one . . . . .



    Avastu Maruti: well, my transportation seems to have arrived early
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: I should get up & going too
    Pema Pera: thank you all so much for being here!
    Avastu Maruti guesses Pema didn't hear the helicopter
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Pema, Avastu
    Threedee Shepherd: I will ponder this resource of tonight :)
    Pema Pera: I heard it, yes
    Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
    Pema Pera: bye everybody!
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Pema Pera: and sorry for talking so much . . . .
    Pema Pera: I'll try to be more quiet next time :)

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