2009.07.04 19:00 - Nasruddin

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

    Pema Pera: Hi Pila, and hi Eos!
    Pila Mulligan: fi Pema
    Pila Mulligan: hi*
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: hifi?
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pila Mulligan: 'lo Eos
    Pila Mulligan: I enjoyed reading the log of Prayer #3 session
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pema, Pila!
    Pema Pera: ah, is it up already, great!
    Pema Pera: What were your reactions?
    Pila Mulligan: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.04_07%3a00_-_Prayer_-_theme_session_%233
    Pila Mulligan: like oyurself, I did some sufi stuff years ago, I really appreciate Islam as a culutre and a religion
    Pila Mulligan: Sophia is doing beautifully
    Pema Pera: yes, she has a way to express her own involvement gently and clearly
    Pila Mulligan: and also she tells nice Nasruddin stories :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: do oyu unuderstand how what Sophia is calling the salat relates ot the zikr?
    Pema Pera: can you remind me what "zikr" means?
    Pema Pera: I don't think Sophia used the term "zikr"
    Pila Mulligan: Zikr was what the Suif groups I got close to referred to as their prayer -- usually with dance and singing also
    Pila Mulligan: no, she was describing the five-a-day prayer, the salat
    Pila Mulligan: I just wonder if they cross paths, so to speak
    Pema Pera: ah, I see. I think the two are different in various ways, the salat being done by everyone, and the Sufi rituals by smaller more intimate groups
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: "Zikr, pronounced Dhi-kar, means remembrance. It is often associated with Allah to mean "Remembrance of Allah".
    Pema Pera: but of course, both can help us to open up
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.zikr.co.uk/
    Pila Mulligan: sufis are experts at opening up :)
    Pema Pera: actually, concerning Nasrudin, it is great that so much is now online, e.g. : http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Sufism/Nasrudin
    Following Pila's suggestion to look at Nasrudin, I found a great sentence on that web site:
    Pema Pera: A nice line there, at the start of the first section:
    Pema Pera: "It is sometimes said that the Universe is Allah laughing himself into existence"
    Pila Mulligan: thanks for the link -- NAsruddin is a favorite
    Pema Pera: doesn't that sound like Play as Being :-)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: reminds em also of the lauging buddha
    Pila Mulligan: Hotei
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budai
    Eos Amaterasu: Humor seems to be a kind of appreciation of the gap
    Pila Mulligan: yes,Eos, for me it is also
    Pema Pera: Yes, the gap is beyond rationality, yet has its own logic. For example, in this "no-self" story of Nasrudin:
    The dervish Nasrudin entered a formal reception area and seated himself at the foremost elegant chair.
    The Chief of the Guard approached and said: "Sir, those places are reserved for guests of honor."
    "Oh, I am more than a mere guest," replied Nasrudin confidently.
    "Oh, so are you a diplomat?"
    "Far more than that!"
    "Really? So you are a minister, perhaps?"
    "No, bigger than that too."
    "Oho! So you must be the King himself, sir," said the Chief sarcastically.
    "Higher than that!" "What?! Are you higher than the King?! Nobody is higher than the King in this village!"
    "Now you have it. I am nobody!" said Nasrudin.

    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi
    Pila Mulligan: eliza
    Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
    Eos Amaterasu: Kind of Gödelian...

    Eliza walked in, with an amazing hair color, prompting Eos:
    Eos Amaterasu: HI purple locks!
    Pema Pera: Play and humor, both, can transcend the narrow bounds of rational logic, yet can have a logic of their own
    Eliza Madrigal grins :)
    Pila Mulligan: I imagine the shahada (the Muslim creed) is common to zikr and salat: shahada is the phrase 'Lā ilaha illal-Lāh, Muhammadun rasūlula-Lāh' -- “There is no god but God, Muhammad is the Messenger of God" -- this essential meaning of this creed has inspired a lot of philosophical analysis, some even like the modern movements of Christian theology that graviate toward eastern ideas
    Eos Amaterasu: "If we can't have sanity, we can fake it with humor. Humor gives you the same distance from the situation, the same metaview, only laughing is easier than sanity and possibly more fun." — St. Jude
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: my favorite explanation of the shahada was form an old sufi who said it was like an atheist saying 'there is no god' and then syaing (as if on a battlefiled in need), 'but god!' -- like an expression of irony
    Pila Mulligan: calling on what one denied
    Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paradise :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Paradise!
    Paradise Tennant: hiya pila eliza pema eos :))
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: shahada?
    Eliza Madrigal was sorry to miss this morning's session but skimmed the log and look forward to reading it tomorrow
    Pila Mulligan: shahda is the essential islamic creed -- there is no god but god and Muhaamed is his prohet
    Pema Pera: it was a great session!
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods...and the email before was helpful
    Eliza Madrigal: brb
    Paradise Tennant: what is our topic tonight ? :)
    Pema Pera: we don't have a specific topic yet, but please feel free to suggest one!
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Paradise brought up a great topic.
    Paradise Tennant: listening to the diversity of thoughts and experiences here .. always makes me think of "totality" and the invariable rightness of it .. just that sometimes we from our vantage point cannot always see or understand that rightness :)
    Eliza Madrigal: My pab clothes....heheh
    Paradise Tennant: but in each and every moment we experience .. there is always a sense of whatever is the situation .. this is what should be :)
    Pema Pera: yes, each of us catch a few rays of the totality . . . that's why it's so nice to share them, we all have our own angls of understanding and our own body of experience
    Pema Pera: "this is what should be" -- that's a fascinating response to "what is", Paradise! Can you say more about that?
    Paradise Tennant: hmmm I feel most centered relaxed .. right when I surrender to what ever is .. "NOW" and just accept or enjoy what ever the circumstance from a traffic jam to .. hearing a wonderful piece of music .. for the first time
    Paradise Tennant: it is the path .. I feel the most grace in
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Paradise Tennant: we so often fight .. or want to change what is .. instead of accepting that what ever is ..could not be otherwise .. that is not to say you do not plan or try to improve things just focus on the now and enjoy it for all it is .. and really all you ever have :)
    Pema Pera: that's a great way to explain by example what PaB is trying to suggest to do in the 9-sec: "drop what you have to see what you are" or even more accurately "to see what is" since you have to drop the "you" too . . .
    Eos Amaterasu: "Nothing you can see that isn't shown. Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be."
    Pema Pera: :)
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Pila Mulligan: there is a nice ethical paradix in the truth of this idea we are discussing, also
    Pema Pera: http://allspirit.co.uk/allyouneed.html
    Pila Mulligan: i.e., how to plan or try to improve things
    Pema Pera: before even thinking of improving, we have to accept and face up to the situation as it is . . . .
    Pema Pera: as Paradise expressed so well
    Paradise Tennant: :))))
    Pema Pera: and Eos/Lennon/McCarthney did too
    Paradise Tennant: lol beautifully
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes the very simple shifts are the biggest leaps :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Its easy... lalala
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I think the most successful improvers had that sense, peole such as Gandhi and King
    Eos Amaterasu: "things are as they are (or should be)" doesn't contradict "this detail can be changed to that detail" (re PIla's ?)
    Pila Mulligan: but their ethics included not only the sense atoneness but also the sense of truth as a change vehicle -- toeward love
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Eos, that is the paradix
    Pila Mulligan: paradox
    Pema Pera: indeed, Eos, and that's the core of wu-wei, not-doing, I think
    Pila Mulligan: bliss = love = solution
    Pema Pera: "as it is" does not mean static -- it can be utterly dynamic
    Paradise pointed out this dynamic nature of "as is":
    Paradise Tennant: well we could pre suppose we are all trying to improve things and the moment we are in is the end result for now ... but the next moment could be better or worse but .. even so .. it would still be right because it would be the result of a totality not just our own little tiny effort
    Pema Pera: but without friction, regret, double-speak, fretting . . . just doing naturally as the situation invites you to do
    Pema Pera: as Pila likes to quote from Taoism: doing-by-not-doing :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Or perhaps then you're a messenger of Allah
    Pema Pera: !!!
    Pema Pera: nobody
    Pila Mulligan: and as Pema like to omit, also doing to obtainnot doing
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Pema Pera: isn't that "doing by not doing"?
    Pila Mulligan: sublte difference
    Pema Pera: in what way?
    Pila Mulligan: like Arjuna, some things just have to be done
    Pema Pera: how can you "obtain" not-doing?
    Paradise Tennant: arjuna ?
    Pila Mulligan: in the Bhagavad Gita
    Pila Mulligan: by following your karma
    Pila Mulligan: seeing the path to not doing
    Pema Pera: yes, we struggle to learn not to struggle :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: Your karma, your path of doing, is your path of not-doing
    Pila Mulligan: Stim has been doing a nice take on this during the past few weeks using the concept of going
    Pema Pera: the key seems to be not to drop activity but to drop attachment to activity
    Pila Mulligan: in his workshops on Thirsday
    Pila Mulligan: yes, or grasping, as Stim said
    Pila Mulligan: attaching to the action
    Eos Amaterasu: which allows humor!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: in a way the non doing is surrender to the bigger picture .. a totality where .. you are part of an enormous connected whole with .. infinite awareness
    This gave me a nice chance for a plug for Monday's evening meeting:
    Pema Pera: ah, that fits perfectly with our next theme meeting, Monday 7 pm SLT !
    Pema Pera: Threedee and Eos will moderate
    Pema Pera: about how "cognition" or "knowledge" could be seen as part of the fabric of reality
    Paradise Tennant: interesting topic
    Eos Amaterasu: "there's nothing you can see that isn't known" :-)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: here is an example from real life expereince: getting caught in an ocean rip tide -- it is like a freight train of current runing behind the surf line along the shore, but leading farther out to sea ...
    Pila Mulligan: if you go with the flow, you go out to sea, if you try to swim against it your exhaust yourself, but there are moments you can sense when you can take a step closer to shore, inside the rip tide, but just a very slight sideways movement ...
    Pila Mulligan: do that a few times and the rest of your days becomes much simpleer
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Pema Pera: beautiful example, Pila!
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Pila Mulligan: action to obtain nonaction :)
    Pema Pera: or nonaction all the way :-)
    Pila Mulligan: fun at sea :)
    Pema Pera: reality at sea
    Eos Amaterasu: awake appreciation, with action-in-an-instant
    Pila Mulligan: so cognition m ay be recognizing thsoe opporutinites
    Paradise Tennant: which are in every moment :)
    Pema Pera: with all we have to do is to open up for the cognition that is there already
    The following notion of enlightenment turned out to be quite controversial.  At face value it seems to go againts many of the usual Buddhist teachings, but as always, it may have been said to emphasize a specific point, for example that real time goes beyond our limited picture of past-present-future.
    Paradise Tennant: in a rl buddhist session last week.. we talked about enlightenment ..reaching enlightenment and the world as you know it ceases to exist and not only ceases to exist but never happened. that concept just makes me blink .. there is so much beauty here ..
    Paradise Tennant: which I am attached to!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm..?
    Eos Amaterasu: Not exactly my sense of what "enlightenment" in Buddhism means: I like "this very world is the mandala of all the buddhas"
    Pila Mulligan: hi william
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: I see it more as that the atttachment is suddenly or gradually worn off....
    Pema Pera: what ceases to exist is our limited picture of the world, perhaps, so that the real beauty can finally shine through, without any sense of possession or attachment, making it far more beautiful
    Paradise Tennant: :)) thank you pema .. i like that idea much better.. :))
    Pema Pera: what you said is true -- within one particular coordinate system, so to speak, but can be misleading when taken out of that context
    Pema Pera: the problem with so many teachings is that they are snippets of advise to a particular person in a particular context
    Pema Pera: and we are all different, and our contexts are different, every day again . . . .
    Eos Amaterasu: things are precise, even more so, but with light touch (aka less attachment), more humor :-)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Paradise Tennant: yes .. another way .. of saying this preceived reality is like a dream from which we will awake and look back on as just a dream :)
    Eliza Madrigal: without looking back maybe :)
    Pila offered a nice summary:
    Pila Mulligan: gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha ... Ram Dass translated parasamgate as 'gone beyond beyond'
    Pema Pera: or already right now we can begin to experience it as the dream that it is, in some ways
    Pema Pera: well, I think I'll follow Eos's "light touch" and also disappear :-)
    Paradise Tennant: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema
    Pema Pera: great talking with y'all !
    Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
    Paradise Tennant: thank you good nite pema
    At this point I had to leave, more than an hour into the session.  The others would continue for another hour, it turned out: I'm giving here the autorecorded chat log, without further comments.
    Eliza Madrigal apologizes for being quiet this evening, but I've enjoyed listening :)
    Paradise Tennant: no apologies .. please ..
    Eliza Madrigal: It has been a while since I've just come to PaB and sat quietly :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you :)
    Paradise Tennant: :)) thank you
    Paradise Tennant: sorry I am going to miss your Monday nite session .. :) pila .. sounds like it will be great
    Eliza Madrigal: The first session was great...read the log a few times
    Eliza Madrigal: Mondays aren't good for you Paradise?
    Paradise Tennant: hmm do a course on mondays .. my rl buddhist class :)) get back fairly late usually
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah :))
    Eliza Madrigal thinks her look is a mismatch with her name ... hehe
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: The changes are a sort of dare from a friend... to stretch the imagination... not sure its working. :)
    Pila Mulligan: I hope to be at the seeeion Monday, Paradise, but Threedee and Eos are the ones actually doing it :)
    Pila Mulligan: session*
    Paradise Tennant: ahh kk
    Paradise Tennant: do not think I have met threedee
    Pila Mulligan: he is a retired science professor
    Paradise Tennant: this is the only time slot I come to
    Paradise Tennant: ahh kk
    Pila Mulligan: very pragmatic
    Pila Mulligan: Eliza, I cannot zoom in on your avi -- are those tatoos?
    Eliza Madrigal: I think Three, Ade and Pila were the people I saw most when first at PaB... when I attended more evening sessions
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe..yes :)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, these were usually the sessions, Paradise,
    Pila Mulligan: I rememebr them well
    Pila Mulligan: Steve has a tatooed avi also
    Pila Mulligan: oops, correction -- these were usually the sessions Eliza :) -- pardon me -- but as i rememebr Paradise oyu also began at these sessions?
    Paradise Tennant: yes and we wears the jeans .. that I wore my first day in sl .. :))) very fond of those jeans :))
    Paradise Tennant: *he
    Paradise Tennant: yes never usually in world before 7 pm
    Eliza Madrigal: When first in SL, the only thingsI bought for the original av were tatoos and shoes
    Eliza Madrigal: I was in the pink dotted dress with tribal tatoos...heheh
    Paradise Tennant: do you surf pila . is that how you encountered the rip tide ?
    Eliza Madrigal: (not to deteriorate a very profound and inspiring session)
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I body surf, but the tide expereince is from swimming
    Pila Mulligan: I love to swim
    Eliza Madrigal: Great analogy. One often needs a tip... a pointer...to see those things....a simple "move sideways" :)
    Pila Mulligan: and boogie board, but not real board surfing
    Pila Mulligan: yes, wihtout that tip you can drwon
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Paradise Tennant: hm body surfing is very freeing isn't it .. makes you feel like you are in touch with something
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: I love being in the ocean...feel so tiny. The sound of the whooshing swallows up everything else sometimes...
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Pila Mulligan: it is funny, on several occasions I have pulled people from the surf when they paniced, and each of them accepted the help but then acted if they were okay all along when they got to shore
    Pila Mulligan: human nature
    Pila Mulligan: the ocean is a very real place :)
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed
    Pila Mulligan: one of the most fun things I've done i stai chi in a gentle shore break
    Pila Mulligan: is tai chi*
    Paradise Tennant: nice
    Pila Mulligan: going with the flow
    Eliza Madrigal: Sometimes the shock maybe... need to walk around a while and get a sense of grounding :)
    Pila Mulligan: yep, probably accurate Eliza
    Pila Mulligan: one guy was so happy with the free ride to shore I had to tell him it was shallow enough fo him tostand up now :)
    Paradise Tennant: ;))
    Eliza Madrigal: :) heh
    Eliza Madrigal: He would have let you carry him home :)
    Pila Mulligan: seemed like it .. :) -- can I get you a drink, sir?
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Eliza Madrigal: I was rescued from a lake once... tried to swim out to an island with a friend and became exhausted... was farther than I thought.
    Eliza Madrigal: Someone appeared from 'nowhere'
    Pila Mulligan: nice
    Pila Mulligan: so you are not a floater, Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes definitely. I was not a strong swimmer but always tried to keep up :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Not so much Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: I float like a duck, so never worry, just stop and rest
    Eliza Madrigal: In Cape Cod once also...swallowed up in enormous waves, nothing like Miami
    Eliza Madrigal: and I didn't tell anyone I nearly drowned when I got myself back :)
    Pila Mulligan: Miami has calm sea?
    Eliza Madrigal: Mostly Pila
    Eliza Madrigal: That is why before hurricanes all the surfers rush out
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Pila Mulligan: big waves can be very frightening
    Pila Mulligan: if you get caught in them
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Pila Mulligan: actually, the most common serius injuries to tourists here are broken bones form waves
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Paradise Tennant: being banged against something
    Eliza Madrigal: really? Hm
    Pila Mulligan: the sandy bottom
    Paradise Tennant: ahh kk
    Pila Mulligan: big wave lifts 'em up and slams them down in shallow ater
    Pila Mulligan: water*
    Paradise Tennant: ouch
    Eliza Madrigal: No smooth transitions
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: mostly on the steep beaches, where there is a drop off to deep water
    Eliza Madrigal: Coconuts falling have oddly high statistics too I hear :)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, they can be bad
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Paradise Tennant: notes to bring helmet when vacationing there
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Pila Mulligan: most public places keep them trimmed
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, true
    Pila Mulligan: it can be dangerous though in places where they fall freely
    Eliza Madrigal: We normally go to the beach for the 4th actually...but so much rain lately
    Pila Mulligan: how far do you have to go Eliza?
    Pila Mulligan: to the beach
    Eliza Madrigal: It depends on which beach. I like the West Coast
    Pila Mulligan: Gulf side?
    Eliza Madrigal: I have family that stays in Hollywood for this week though... about 90 minutes away
    Eliza Madrigal: yes..I prefer it there...
    Eliza Madrigal: Sanibel, Marco Island, etc :)
    Pila Mulligan: I was in Pensacola for a while, it wa snice, never saw Miama
    Pila Mulligan: miami*
    Paradise Tennant: I;ve walled the beaches in naples . they are lovely
    Eliza Madrigal: The night sky is amazing...not so much of a party atmosphere as Miami Beach, which can be fun for its context too :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes...Naples and Marco are basically the same... love it there :)
    Paradise Tennant: miami just seems so big to me
    Eliza Madrigal: yes.... I've grown up here and it has changed dramatically
    Eliza Madrigal: traffic mostly :) Construction
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Pila Mulligan: Waikiki is too much for me, and Miami must be may times more
    Pila Mulligan: many*
    Paradise Tennant: brb one sec
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Eliza Madrigal: I've gotten it into my mind that a move to Asheville,NC or near Denver might be a good thing...
    Eliza Madrigal: love mountains :)
    Pila Mulligan: hm, nice places
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, and I've good friends in both those places
    Pila Mulligan: Denver lacks an ocean, of course :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: But has an airport..hehe
    Pila Mulligan: but if you ski it could be heaven
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't really, but I would!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: Storm is moving ghere soon
    Pila Mulligan: there*
    Eliza Madrigal: When I was 18...on my birthday, I went to Colorado for a Summer... Estes Park. Fell in love :)
    Paradise Tennant: all lovely places
    Pila Mulligan: I've only been to the airport in Denver, passing through, but eveything I've heard about it is nice
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...and from England where I've not been but would like to
    Paradise Tennant: hmm england is lovely
    Paradise Tennant: london has an energy very like manhattan ..you feel it the moment you land
    Pila Mulligan: never been there either .. yet :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Getting up into the areas around Denver is incredible. Another setting one feels dwarfed in...
    Eliza Madrigal: MMM yes Manhattan is palpable and distinct
    Pila Mulligan: my first feeling in manhattan was that it had a roof -- the buildings were so high they seemed to converege to enclose things
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...but every where you look it is a photograph... like it has been set up :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've never been able to go without something to attend/places to be.
    Paradise Tennant: :) and very interesting people
    Pila Mulligan: I was there about 40 years ago, stayed at the Waldorf, the hot water didn't work :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Paradise Tennant: lol I've stayed there too
    Pila Mulligan: did you have hot water?
    Paradise Tennant: wanted to go up to the stardust room but it was shut for repairs
    Paradise Tennant: yes and $28 hamburgers and $15 dollar beers lol
    Pila Mulligan: mine was either scalding or cold, two choices only
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: The last time I went was on a highschool band trip...madness and exhaustion.
    Paradise Tennant: also stayed at the plaza that was better
    Pila Mulligan: that's like food on atrain -- ever ridden on a logn train ride?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: cross canada
    Pila Mulligan: it is fun ...
    Pila Mulligan: but the food is costly
    Paradise Tennant: it is
    Pila Mulligan: captive audience
    Paradise Tennant: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, the cheesecake I ate on the way to Cape Cod was not the best though... took me a few years to enjoy it again :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: love cape cod have family in wood hole mass ... live in a sea captain's house with a widow's walk
    Paradise Tennant: looks over the harbour
    Paradise Tennant: beautiful
    Eliza Madrigal: ooooh...sigh and smile
    Pila Mulligan: I worked for the railroad (brakeman) for a little while before moving to Hawaii, will never forget riding in the engine cab on a full moon night across snowy plains with a herd of deer running nearby
    Paradise Tennant: nice
    Eliza Madrigal: oh wow
    Eliza Madrigal dreamt a few weeks ago that she was flying, SL style, following two moons which became one :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: :0
    Paradise Tennant: wow
    Pila Mulligan: out in space?
    Eliza Madrigal nods... No, not space... a sort of monestary actually.... high on a cliff but with hedges and animals leading up to it...
    Pila Mulligan: cool
    Eliza Madrigal: was an intricate dream :)
    Pila Mulligan: sounds like it
    Paradise Tennant: nice being able to remember it
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes... one of those lingering ones
    Paradise Tennant: always think there is richness in those memories
    Eliza Madrigal: richness, yes. The dreams stick around in the same way RL moments do sometimes
    Pila Mulligan: yep, I remember the best of both waking a dream images
    Pila Mulligan: and*
    Eliza Madrigal nods...like a similar essence or substance :)
    Pila Mulligan: all part of expereince :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Pila Mulligan: is a dream real?
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes .. they stay with you a long time .. and often I find ..
    Paradise Tennant: as real as life
    Paradise Tennant: it is a dream too
    Paradise Tennant: :0
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: "But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes and make them a reality"
    Eliza Madrigal: DH Lawrence
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: [20:04] Paradise Tennant: yes .. another way .. of saying this preceived reality is like a dream from which we will awake and look back on as just a dream :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: now Lawrence is close to what I was aaying about Gandhi and King
    Eliza Madrigal: yes?
    Pila Mulligan: truly dangerous
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes before i fall asleep .. i will try to set up a dream .. focus on being in a nice garden .. on beautiful beach ..lol very cheap holdiays!
    Pila Mulligan: they see their dreams with open eyes
    Pila Mulligan: does it work oftne, Paradis?
    Paradise Tennant: hmm yes
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Paradise Tennant: takes practise ..
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the way maxine phrases 'invite a dream' in her workshops
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes will use a photo and really try to focus on it before falling asleep
    Pila Mulligan: I did that for a while also
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Paradise Tennant: we can and do
    Pila Mulligan: but I gave it up ... decided to do wu wei dreaming :)
    Paradise Tennant: hmm wu wei
    Pila Mulligan: I highly recommend meditating in a dream
    Eliza Madrigal: To me there are different sorts...some you prepare for and some that wait for you :)
    Pila Mulligan: it is something
    Eliza Madrigal likes the idea
    Pila Mulligan: yep, some dreams can seem to have an inevitable apscet, like some rl events
    Pila Mulligan: aspect*
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Paradise Tennant: hmm yes sometimes find you can connect in a dream to an idea .. another person . come to understand something
    Pila Mulligan: I still like to fly, in dreasm, though -- so that I do in a kind of non-wu wei manner
    Eliza Madrigal: It seems water is a real portal...something that we experience which we can get back to
    Paradise Tennant: do not know what wu wei is pila ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Paradise, yes!
    Pila Mulligan: water is closely asssociated to the psyche, in my opnion
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Monica
    Paradise Tennant: hiya monica
    Pila Mulligan: wu wei is a chinese term meaning 'going with the flow'
    Paradise Tennant: ahh kk
    Eliza Madrigal: Ishtar, hello
    Ishtar Ishmene: hello
    Paradise Tennant: hello ishtar
    Eliza Madrigal: "Do without doing"
    Eliza Madrigal: It is a concept which some days seems the most obvious thing...
    Eliza Madrigal: and then some days seems impossible :)
    Pila Mulligan: it is like being in harmnony with nature
    Pila Mulligan: it comes and goes
    Eliza Madrigal: Ishtar, I've just given you a note regarding our little group here :)
    Pila Mulligan: Ishtar, did you read Robert Heinlein's Future History stories?
    Ishtar Ishmene: heinlein i know the author but i have not read that
    Pila Mulligan: IShtar was a character in this stories
    Paradise Tennant: :)) well I should scoot .. I quite unwisely fed the dog chilli .. will be sleeping with my windows open tonight . dreamining of garbage cans ?? lol
    Ishtar Ishmene: and thanks eliza so the group is about western philosophy being question ?
    Pila Mulligan: a beautiful woman whose usualy state was naked
    Eliza Madrigal: What kind of dog Paradise?
    Pila Mulligan: :) sleep well Paradise
    Paradise Tennant: beaded collie poodle mix about 43 lbs
    Ishtar Ishmene: Ishtar is the name of a sumerian goddess so heinlein used it probably
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohh Nice :)
    Pila Mulligan: 43 pounds of bean afrts
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: Night...hehe
    Pila Mulligan: yep, that was his reference for the name, Ishtar
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh...great! Thanks
    Eliza Madrigal: Ishtar, I wouldn't characterize that way.... We discuss the nature of reality from many angles :)
    Eliza Madrigal loves poodles because when my great grandfather had a stroke, our dog learned to put the tennis ball on his foot so taht he could bring it to his working hand :)
    Ishtar Ishmene: scientific angle also ?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes definitely
    Eliza Madrigal: and both in a rather overlapping way at times :)
    Eliza Madrigal: brb
    Pila Mulligan: sometimes these sessiosn are also just extended silence, it can be anything here
    Ishtar Ishmene: i must say i dont see the interest of silence but well
    Pila Mulligan: well, more than half of life i squiet :)
    Pila Mulligan: is quiet*
    Eliza Madrigal: No interesting in silence is like writing without paper :)
    Eliza Madrigal: *interst
    Eliza Madrigal: Hah...*Interest!
    Pila Mulligan: typos are us
    Eliza Madrigal wrestles with her keyboard like jacob with god
    Pila Mulligan: did oyu see the part about the chats being recorded and posted on a web site?
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Ishtar Ishmene: yes i saw that
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pila Mulligan: we need to check to be sure it s okay for first timers
    Pila Mulligan: as it is possible to omit a name or part of a chat fomr the log
    Eliza Madrigal: yes sure
    Pila Mulligan: if someone wishes
    Ishtar Ishmene: well sl is anonymous so i dont see the point: for me it is ok
    Pila Mulligan: yes, we sometimes talk about SL too .. how it relates to what people feel here
    Pila Mulligan: having a different face so to speak
    Pila Mulligan: or tatoos :)
    Eliza Madrigal: sure, and the logs provide a way for those who aren't able to attend many session to be part of things, etc. We have strings that weave throughout our time :)
    Ishtar Ishmene: well if you speak about Being then indeed there is no boundary of your conversations
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes!
    Pila Mulligan: ture
    Pila Mulligan: any topic at all is the idea
    Pila Mulligan: but suually it leads to some aspect of mediative or philosophical or psychological discussion
    Pila Mulligan: or what we did on vacation :)
    Ishtar Ishmene: i see
    Eliza Madrigal: The silent pauses are a way to stop for a few moments and essentially get out of whatever story we've been in, or ideas of what we have/do...
    Eliza Madrigal: Just Be. Then that tends to carry into the rest of the time.
    Pila Mulligan: ... as a balancing moment
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Ishtar Ishmene: a sort of automated manner of changing subject?
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes it can be
    Eliza Madrigal: Mostly we get back to whatever we were discussing with maybe a tad more attention?
    Eliza Madrigal: Words are imperfect of course :)
    Pila Mulligan: ... brb, phone call
    Ishtar Ishmene: i have to go now will be back another time
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ishtar, pleasure to meet you
    Eliza Madrigal: Lovely name
    Ishtar Ishmene: thanks eliza bye
    Pila Mulligan: this phone call may be a whike, Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: No worries Pila... may pop out in a moment but am rearranging inventory...can't sleep lately :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I may turn off the log though?
    Pila Mulligan: sure
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