2009.07.14 13:00 - philosophy of philosophy

A Yak with a jet pack?

arabella Ella: is that a jet pack on your back Yak?
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah its on my back
arabella Ella: cool
Yakuzza Lethecus: +
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s better wen i am exploring
arabella Ella: yes i guess it gives you more power and lift?
Yakuzza Lethecus: right no hight issues while flying
arabella Ella: fantastic
Yakuzza Lethecus: but sl makes problems so sometimes i won´t stop flying
arabella Ella smiles
arabella Ella: usual SL problems :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: Ur really only attending the pab sessions ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: or do you still try to explore more ?
arabella Ella: i still try to explore more but i also try to control my time on SL
Yakuzza Lethecus: right i have that open pretty much all the time while i am a the comp

arabella Ella: very sun burnt tonight
Mickorod Renard: whats sun?
Mickorod Renard: oh yes,,i remember
Yakuzza Lethecus: hihi :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: where are you in england ?
arabella Ella: sun is something you cant get away from here ... no need to even ask whether the weather was good :)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,actually its been ok here so far
arabella Ella: rain in London tho i just heard on TV
Mickorod Renard: well its even been thunder storms here today
Yakuzza Lethecus: we have still about 20C° outside
Mickorod Renard: but nice generally
Mickorod Renard: thats nice Yaku
arabella Ella: here is must be close to 40 midday and sea temp is around 23
Yakuzza Lethecus: it was pretty sunny today but only 25 C° so thats not too hot and not too cold
Yakuzza Lethecus: how wet is the air then ?
arabella Ella: too hot
Yakuzza Lethecus: i guess you don´t feel the warm air that much
Yakuzza Lethecus: ok
Mickorod Renard: here the humidity isnt so bad
arabella Ella: we do i had to wait in a queue in my car and it was terrible
arabella Ella: if you dont have AC
arabella Ella: (i dont)
Mickorod Renard: lol,,I wud have thought u wud have

Yakuzza Lethecus: we could really use voice in here someday
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello wester
Eliza Madrigal: Here for just a few moments...

Mickorod Renard: I think Stim would prefer voice in WoK

Eliza Madrigal: Voice in PaB doesn't work so well because the logs help people stay connected even without being here 'in av'
Mickorod Renard: hey,,posted the scribe on time eliza ;)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, BEAUTIFUL job Mick...really nice
Mickorod Renard: ohh,,u read it?
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i can´t imagine that somebody would really read the logs from the ,,non maintheme sessions"
Mickorod Renard: ty
Mickorod Renard: the scribe is a hortened version
Mickorod Renard: shortened
Eliza Madrigal: Imagine no more Mick... I often read them like morning papers :)
arabella Ella: do you know what the idea behind the logs is Eliza?
Mickorod Renard: with some individual artistic licence
Eliza Madrigal: *YAkuzza rather
Yakuzza Lethecus: at least i am more talkative in voice
Yakuzza Lethecus: ups minute
arabella Ella: i dont mind using voice at all
arabella Ella: oh
Eliza Madrigal: I can't say what the original idea was Ara, but for me they allow a continuity and flow
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I feel I get a chance to hear from 'everyone' not just those in my normal slots
Mickorod Renard: I prefer chat rather than talk
arabella Ella: and do you actually read most of the logs Eliza?
arabella Ella: cos it must be massive :)
Eliza Madrigal: I don't know if it is most...
arabella Ella: :)
Eliza Madrigal: and I can't say all of it is 'reading' rather than skimming
Eliza Madrigal: but yes, quite a few
arabella Ella nods
Mickorod Renard: even though I sort of dread doing the scribe,,I actually get alot of enjoyment and satisfaction doing it
Eliza Madrigal: I gave up reading Salon.com for the logs I think... maybe a few other sites I'd been habitual about
arabella Ella: how many logs does a scribe have to go through Mick?
Mickorod Renard: 3 days worth,,so thats 12
Mickorod Renard: although often some logs are not posted in time to do
arabella Ella: wow quite a few
Mickorod Renard: so its less
Mickorod Renard: I am not a very confident person (in my opinion),,but I recomend everyone to have a go
arabella Ella: well i guess one needs to have the time available to dedicate to doing the scribe :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes you worried a lot but did very well. I certainly haven't done what I set out to do, which would be more creative perhaps. The thing is, the conversations themselves are so interesting that what more is there to say?
Eliza Madrigal: And yes, time is a real issue
Eliza Madrigal: brb
Mickorod Renard: I always worry I may take something and change its context
Mickorod Renard: so I do my best not to,,but otherwise its quite good fun

Mickorod Renard: its suprising what topics get covered outside when I am not usually here

Yakuzza Lethecus: where have you been on ur friday happy hour ?

Mickorod Renard: Fef,,, that top u r wearing must be worn out now,,I have never known ur avi to wear anything else
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fefonz Quan: luckily Avi's dont sweat :)
Mickorod Renard: hey,,more thunder and lightening here
arabella Ella: nothing wears out ... or grows old ... er ... here :)

Ball lightening

Mickorod Renard: I saw ball lightening once,,has anyone else?
arabella Ella: what is ball lightening?
Mickorod Renard: its supposed to be rare
arabella Ella: cool
Fefonz Quan: how does it look Mick?
Mickorod Renard: like footballs of lightening swirling around in the air
Eliza Madrigal shakes head... think I'd remember that
arabella Ella: sounds scarey tto me
Wester Kiranov: sorry RL interfering. see you all some other time.
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Wester, nice to see you
Fefonz Quan: Bye Wester!
arabella Ella: bye Wester
Mickorod Renard: some say they can enter a house and fly out again
Mickorod Renard: bye wester
Mickorod Renard: I am sure I read somewhere it is an impossible phenomena

Harry potter and books in general

Eliza Madrigal: I should get going. Harry Potter day here... film at midnight and chaos in the meantime :)
arabella Ella: well lightening in itself is quite a phenomenon
arabella Ella: enjoy Eliza bye
Mickorod Renard: yes?,,is that a new film?
Mickorod Renard: ok bye eliza
Fefonz Quan: Bye Eliza, enjoy.
Eliza Madrigal is going to look up ball lightning pictures later
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Bfn :)

Yakuzza Lethecus: is the new harry potter already at the movies ?
arabella Ella: i think so
Mickorod Renard: not sure,,,
arabella Ella: but i am not a fan
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, 15th july
Fefonz Quan: yes
arabella Ella: midnight today then as Eliza said :)
Fefonz Quan: i made it to the fourth book
Mickorod Renard: yea,,I think I have read them all
Mickorod Renard: my lad was too lazy to read them to me
Fefonz Quan: they were nice, i prefered Narnia though
Yakuzza Lethecus: right i think i have read, hmm , nothing :)
Mickorod Renard: I have never read nania,,which is odd cos i like nania's author
Fefonz Quan: so you definitly should!
Mickorod Renard: yes I know
Mickorod Renard: i havnt really got a book on the go at the mom
Yakuzza Lethecus: so you guy´s been reading already from childhood or did that come later ?
Fefonz Quan: start with 'the lion, the witch and the wardrobe'
Fefonz Quan: childhood
Mickorod Renard: ok
Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean reading for fun and out of own interest
Fefonz Quan: sure
Fefonz Quan: i think this question phrased by Yaku can be spelled only after 1990...
Yakuzza Lethecus: did ur parents also read much and also read out of books when you´ve been smaller ?
Mickorod Renard: I started reading seriously when I had my son,,then i read hundreds of books to him Yaku
Fefonz Quan: well i guess,
Fefonz Quan: i am reading since the age of 4
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i wish my mum had read more to me
arabella Ella: i have always read books for my interest and pleasure but my parents would buy books for me but would read magazines more than books or readers digest
Yakuzza Lethecus: i am thinking much of the issue and even the issue that i never percieved reading as something ,,normal"
arabella Ella: why not Yak?
Mickorod Renard: well,i tended to read comics Yaku
Mickorod Renard: as a kid
arabella Ella: me too
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t know i think it´s related to the issue that nobody was ever reading much here
Fefonz Quan: here is where?
Yakuzza Lethecus: here is my parents when i was smaller :P
Mickorod Renard: I noticed when I was in france that most people didnt read like the brits did
Fefonz Quan: i should have guessed that one :)
arabella Ella: i think i got hooked on reading at school when we were encouraged to borrow library books
Fefonz Quan: as an adult i feel we don't have so much time as children, so people(i) tend to read much less
arabella Ella nods
Fefonz Quan: yes, i was also reading library book mostly as a child
Fefonz Quan: books*
Mickorod Renard: mmmm..dunno Fef,,I read quite alot still,,sometimes only science journals,,other times a good book/fiction
Fefonz Quan: i read quite a lot now, but i don't work now, so it's easy :)
arabella Ella: yes mick but today we got DVDs movies internet etc to compete with reading books
Fefonz Quan: i did read a lot on business trips
Fefonz Quan: agree ara, and i think this competition not always does us good
arabella Ella nods
arabella Ella: altho it has pros and cons too
Mickorod Renard: when I was living away..i started reading all the old books I had inherited,,stuff that was perhaps 50yr old and more
Mickorod Renard: and classics
arabella Ella: i have a question ...
Mickorod Renard: I prefer reading in the classic language now
arabella Ella: do you think the books we are brought up on ... many of which depict life in a very idealistic way ... give us a ... i dunno ... a distorted picture of life?
arabella Ella: in the sense they may lead us to expect life to be more ideal than it ever can be?
Fefonz Quan: intruiging, Ara
Mickorod Renard: maybe,,but perhaps one with a better moral vision
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think that is only the case for most child books
Fefonz Quan: in a way i prefer them on movies, that do the same, in somewhat more agressive way
arabella Ella: ye
arabella Ella: yes
Mickorod Renard: for idealistic reading i prefer Rupert
arabella Ella: mmmmmm
Fefonz Quan: i agree with Yaku too, and there are also some children book that have challenging things too. (Bambi's mother died...)
arabella Ella: owwwww
Mickorod Renard: and rupert is dual,,you have reading and the poems too
Fefonz Quan whispers 'who is Rupert'
Mickorod Renard: ahh,Rupert is for the privilaged few
arabella Ella: Rupert is a bear who has great adventures for children in comic style books
Fefonz Quan: ok, you can count me out ;-)
Fefonz Quan: (>mick)
Yakuzza Lethecus: I really had issues because real life is more or less decisions like the trolly problem while books and movies in my childhood had only ,,good and evil" so an utilitarian picture was far away and alienated for me
Mickorod Renard: he he

Yaku philosophizes

Fefonz Quan: utilitarian?
arabella Ella: trolly problem?
Mickorod Renard: rupert is in yearly comic style books
Yakuzza Lethecus: there are 10 people in a bus
Yakuzza Lethecus: the bus has defect brakes
Yakuzza Lethecus: you see that and ur together with a fat man on a bridge
Yakuzza Lethecus: the bus is comming
Fefonz Quan: (and there is a bomb if it goes over 70 miles an hour, yeah!)
Yakuzza Lethecus: and you think you can stop the bus when you through the fat man in front of the bus
Yakuzza Lethecus: you sacrifice one for 10
Yakuzza Lethecus: but usually its with a trolly
arabella Ella: oh i hate those philosophical problems
Mickorod Renard: they seem cool books Yaku
arabella Ella: because nothing is ever so clear in real life
Yakuzza Lethecus: right
Fefonz Quan nods to Ara
arabella Ella: these are philosophical ethical problems mick
Mickorod Renard: yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: but you say a company is in insolvency
arabella Ella: like you have twins and they are drowing and equidistant which one do you decide to save if you can only save one?
Yakuzza Lethecus: so many people loos their jobs maybe
arabella Ella hates those problems they are generally quite unreal
Yakuzza Lethecus: crap bad example
Yakuzza Lethecus: but its just a way to get away from the basic good and evil picture
Fefonz Quan: agree with ara. they are good for philosophical argiments though
arabella Ella: i dont enjoy them for philosophical arguments either
Fefonz Quan: well, in Narnia you get a Lion for a little child, and you need to choose (won't tell what happens for Mick)
arabella Ella: he he
Yakuzza Lethecus: so ara would you say philosophy is out of the world and unreal in any way they ?
Mickorod Renard: ty Fef
Fefonz Quan: so in the context of a story i think these problems get much more 'real' and relevant
arabella Ella: Yak this is only one small branch of moral philosophy which often deals with utilitarianism ... there is a lot more to philosophy than just that
Fefonz Quan: i would say they are very relevant Yaku, but within a wider context of event, not in such sterile environment
arabella Ella: in these ethical philosophical problems you are often given an impossible choice between two options ... where it is practically difficult if not impossible to decide
Yakuzza Lethecus: but how understanding the relevance when nobody even talks about basic issues to learn the language to anybody
arabella Ella: real life is much more fuzzy and complicated
arabella Ella: not sure what you mean Yak?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t consider me a philosopher but when nobody is discussing and learning terms to describe moral problems how will we learn do describe more complex situations then ,,just the trolly problem"
Mickorod Renard: I like the idea that you can stimulate decisions in the mind that may pre empt a real life dilemna,when in rl time may not be on your side
Mickorod Renard: in a way i think dreams work like this too
Fefonz Quan: Yaku, i don't think any of us here meant those issues are worthless to discuss. i am sure they are useful to think about in some contexts
Mickorod Renard: be prepared,,thats a good boy scout moto
arabella Ella: for me, they are just not my favourite area of philosophy ... i mean how often are we faced with such choices in life?
arabella Ella: and there are lots of other philosophical ethical positions which i find to have more value
Mickorod Renard: its the unexpected that catches you out Ara
arabella Ella: it would catch you out anyway mick regardless of how prepared you are
Mickorod Renard: maybe
Fefonz Quan: the trolly also brings the prices of each decision to extremes, which makes it so dificult
Mickorod Renard: whatever you do Yaku,,dont get into Ayne Rand
Yakuzza Lethecus: do i have a tail ?
arabella Ella: that is why it is part of a system called utilitarianism Fefonz which implies the greatest good to the greatest number
Yakuzza Lethecus: do i look like a wolf :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: am i birric :) ?
Mickorod Renard: he he
arabella Ella: quantifying ethical decisions - utilitarianism
arabella Ella: he he
Mickorod Renard: got ya
Fefonz Quan: yep! and considering this, did i mention here that i found out she had a close group of fans and disciples in the early seventies, the famous of tehm is Alan Greenspan?
Fefonz Quan: (for Ayne Rand()
arabella Ella: really?
arabella Ella: crazy people
Mickorod Renard: I knew she had an inner circle
Fefonz Quan: and thinkig about it, we can see how he implemented those ideas, and where it got us
Fefonz Quan: philosophy in action
arabella Ella: Yak if you take the trolley problem you could also use Kant's categorical imperative and ask - if i was the guy with the trolley would i wish the other guyv to push me in front of the bus?
Mickorod Renard: ioronically, even though I dont like ayne Rand,,I find her words haunting me and I do use them in understanding human nature
Yakuzza Lethecus: i didn´t say that i would make any decision, i just mentioned utilitarism and the issue that childbooks are very dualistic
arabella Ella: yes
Yakuzza Lethecus: most of the childbooks don´t mention more then good and evil
arabella Ella: true
arabella Ella: also romantic novels
Mickorod Renard: very true Yaku
arabella Ella: which many adults read too
Fefonz Quan: and swords, and magics, and castels :)
arabella Ella: angels too
Fefonz Quan: and eating honey with your friends in a nice morning
arabella Ella: yummy
Mickorod Renard: I dont think kids anlyse the stories like us adults do,,so thier books have very simple messages
arabella Ella: picnics in the park on the banks of the river :)
Mickorod Renard: we adults like to complicate the world
Fefonz Quan: hanging around with black panthers and grey bears
arabella Ella: he he
Mickorod Renard: bill badger
Fefonz Quan: btw Yaku - i believe you have to learn the (even philosophical) basic before getting complicated
arabella Ella: brb need some more aftersun for my sunburn :)
Mickorod Renard: owww
Yakuzza Lethecus: sure, but where to learn it then when nobody likes the topics ?
Mickorod Renard: well that is an issue I struggled with Yaku
Fefonz Quan: well, i meant that the basics are good and bad, right and wrong etc.
Mickorod Renard: the problem is,,that every variant in philosophy seems plausable,,until u read the next one
Fefonz Quan: and then when you get older you find out that 'lived happily ever after' was too short description of RL :)
Mickorod Renard: like ara has said to me on many occasions,,philo raises more questions than it answers
Mickorod Renard: he he he ,,right on Fef
Fefonz Quan: btw - i guess there are quite a few that like those topics Yaku.
Mickorod Renard: I had this preconcieved idea that philosophers have all the answers,,but in fact they just have more questions but no answers
arabella Ella: back
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t believe its the fat man, i belive in rl its the company that gets the debs from the mother to protect the holding
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think those things are to learn the language
Fefonz Quan: That's what i like about our gourp here Mick - emphirical philosophy, not detached from daily life
Yakuzza Lethecus: obviously they are just metaphors and i really don´t consider to know much about phil still, and i know ara is a phil prof
Mickorod Renard: yes,,a much more handy style
Fefonz Quan: debs?
Yakuzza Lethecus: depts ?
Fefonz Quan: debts?
Mickorod Renard: debts?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: owes money?
Yakuzza Lethecus: right
Mickorod Renard: as in debited
arabella Ella: hey sorry Yak ... I am not a philo prof
Mickorod Renard: but shortened
arabella Ella: i studied philo but i am not a prof
Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, phd :P
Fefonz Quan: lost you with the company Yaku... Ara, are you phil Prof? i didn't know
arabella Ella: yes
arabella Ella: sorry
arabella Ella: no
arabella Ella: i am not a prof
arabella Ella: funny threads here
Fefonz Quan: so just pro ;-)
arabella Ella: he he
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i just have the issue that nobody even tries to describe complciated issues, its cool to talk like ,,its the corrupt managers" or what ever but nobody tries to understand things often.
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don´t say to be very intelligent or cablable of doing that
Mickorod Renard: this is true yaku,,but often people are looking from diferent perspectives
Fefonz Quan: i start to suspect Yaku don't have enough geeks around - not that it has no down side to have them ;-)
Mickorod Renard: a good diolog inside a mixed group is excelent
Fefonz Quan: they wear the same cloths all teh time!!!
arabella Ella: he he
arabella Ella: clothes that never stink too :)
Mickorod Renard: I find it uprising though,,that in many groups on sl there is a strong wish to avoid confrontation and upsetting people
Fefonz Quan nods
Mickorod Renard: suprising*
Fefonz Quan: uprising was nice there
Mickorod Renard: maybe its cos we cannot be sure,,through lack of eye contact,,how offended people are getting
Mickorod Renard: also there is a risk of loosing people from groups
Fefonz Quan: Sorry to ask, did we offend you Yaku?
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Mickorod Renard: what I am sayin is,,that in debate in sl,,people dont always feel they can say what they mean
Fefonz Quan: as well as in RL, and sometimes even more Mick
Yakuzza Lethecus: no, but the problem is that i had the feeling that i had to defend something that isn´t certain for me but when i read about learning issues depending on the social status and language acuisition then even discussions at home are an important factor for the development of children
Mickorod Renard: very true,,sl is very free in most respects
Yakuzza Lethecus: and philosophy is often just a toolset to structure discussions
Yakuzza Lethecus: philosophy doens´t exist for philosophy it provieds examples and perspectives
Mickorod Renard: I think that is a valid issue Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i am no professional i try to see it in that way aotherwise it wouldn´t make any sense
arabella Ella: philosophy is the mother of all other disciplines ... and today philosophy often acts as 'moderator' or 'police' for other discipliens especially for ethical issues like stem cell research
Fefonz Quan: i just find it that trying to defend philosophy in that forum is bouncing into an open door
Mickorod Renard: although,,I have found that in Philo groups,,there is often more going on in a battle of language knowledge than actually on philosophy
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i am in the conflict of trying to understand what went wrong maybe for myself and finding new tools and learn to describe experiences and thougths better
Fefonz Quan: do you feel something went wrong due to lack of good desciption?
Fefonz Quan: description*
Mickorod Renard: I am always saying something wrong,,as I too have a limited academic language
Yakuzza Lethecus: it is a factor there are many influences
arabella Ella: philosophy can be discussed at different levels tho
Yakuzza Lethecus: for me it´s not all about phil
arabella Ella: and philosophy has many meanings and applications too
Mickorod Renard: I like the plain english level
Fefonz Quan: can you elaborate about that one Yaku?
arabella Ella: there is what is called common sense philosophy too mick
Mickorod Renard: I have never come across that one Ara
Yakuzza Lethecus: for example when there is no discussion to the end at home and its always just ,,because sombody said so"
Yakuzza Lethecus: when ur in school and there is no help but only pressue but ur unable to say what the exact issue is
Yakuzza Lethecus: you just feel stupid because ur unable to express it
arabella Ella nods
Mickorod Renard: I think some of this problem stems from the devide between science,,and philosophy
Yakuzza Lethecus: for me the problem is not philosophy itself
Fefonz Quan: yes, i also agree that many people are turned off/bored/intimidated by intelectual conversatins and reasoning
Mickorod Renard: yes they are,,getting into a group of similatr minded people would help ,,in rl,,Yaku
Fefonz Quan: it's like many people are afraid of numbers and mathematics
Yakuzza Lethecus raisies his finger on that too
Mickorod Renard: me too
Fefonz Quan: means you agree or afraid? :)
Mickorod Renard: you are quite young Yaku,,yes?
Yakuzza Lethecus: 27
Yakuzza Lethecus: aleady, i didn´t attend college because of math.
Mickorod Renard: well,,some of these issues are more frustrating at that age
Fefonz Quan: well 27 is not THAT young
Mickorod Renard: when u get older in life,,the puzzle unravels,,and you see that everyone struggles the same..and its confidence that helps
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think much about envrionment and what got more or less tacid influences on ur
Yakuzza Lethecus: anyway i believe even everyone understands something different under terms like phil and it was just an example for more complex ethical issues taken out of an philosophical problem
Mickorod Renard: I still ask lots of questions,,and I think that is great
Yakuzza Lethecus: anyway, its getting too late
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night
Fefonz Quan: good night Yaku, thanks for the intruiging conversation!
Mickorod Renard: ok,,cool,,nite nite Yaku,,we must contin this debate again
Mickorod Renard: its close to my heart too
arabella Ella: nite Yaku
Mickorod Renard: it is a strange observation,,i have had much of my life amongst people that dont ask questions
Fefonz Quan: yes, not many people ask to many questions
Mickorod Renard: and felt i was a bit odd
Mickorod Renard: but now I see the opposite,,that its odd not to ask questions
Fefonz Quan: infact i can understand both approaches Mick.
Fefonz Quan: sometimes keeping things simple and not dive too deep can be a good way to get around
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I often say,,ignorance is bliss
Mickorod Renard: he he
Fefonz Quan: yep... i think it is a subtle line between not thinking at all and thinking too much
Mickorod Renard: yes,good point..thinking too much becomes a torture
Mickorod Renard: well,,I had best be off,,thanks for comming fef,,great to see you
Fefonz Quan: Good to see you too Mick! good night
Mickorod Renard: I am going now Ara,,thanks for commin
arabella Ella: bye mick
Mickorod Renard: byeeeeeee